It came down to the final day of the regular season, but the Cincinnati Reds outlasted the New York Mets to grab the 6th spot in the National League and qualify for the playoffs as the 3rd and final wild card team. The results from Sunday’s games means that the Reds will be facing off against the Los Angeles Dodgers in the first round of the playoffs. Let’s dig into everything we need to know about the series.
When and Where
The best-of-three game series will begin on Tuesday, September 30th. The two teams will also play on Wednesday, October 1st, and if necessary, Thursday, October 2nd.. All of the games in the series will be played in Los Angeles at Dodger Stadium. Each game has a scheduled first pitch for 9:08pm ET. The entire series will air on ESPN.
The Starting Pitchers
Hunter Greene will start game one for the Cincinnati Reds. The Dodgers have not officially announced their starter for the game, but Los Angeles manager Dave Roberts said on Sunday that it was likely to be Blake Snell.
Hunter Greene and Blake Snell both missed time with injuries this season. And both were dominant when they were healthy. Greene made 19 starts and had a 2.76 ERA with a 0.94 WHIP. Snell, who dealt with shoulder issues, only made 11 starts for the Dodgers but he posted a 2.35 ERA with a 1.26 WHIP in those games.
Greene faced the Dodgers once this season and it wound up being one of the worst starts of the season for him as he allowed three earned runs, was charged with two unearned runs, and threw 5.0 innings in what turned into a 7-0 loss. In the 2024 season he faced Los Angeles twice – both times in May and they came in back-to-back starts. He allowed three total runs in his 12.1 innings as the Reds and Dodgers split those games.
Snell did not face the Reds this season. He did face them in 2024 when he was with San Francisco. The lefty couldn’t have done much better as he fired a no-hitter in Cincinnati in a 3-0 win by the Giants.
Beyond those two guys, neither team has indicated who will be the starters in the rest of the series. During the latter part of the season it was Nick Lodolo who was behind Greene in the rotation, but he pitched out of the bullpen on Sunday. Perhaps he can still go on Wednesday given that he threw just 26 pitches during the game. Zack Littell would be the next guy in the rotation, and then Andrew Abbott. For Andrew Abbott, he pitched on Saturday, so he would be pitching on short rest to take the mound for game two, but would be on normal rest for a game three if it were necessary.
Assuming that it is indeed Blake Snell in game one, then the next guy in the Dodgers rotation at the end of the season has been Yoshinobu Yamamoto. Shohei Ohtani, though, had been pitching every 6th or 7th day for Los Angeles since returning from Tommy John surgery and he last pitched on the 23rd. Those three seem to be the likely trio that would face the Reds.
How did the do against the opposition?
The Cincinnati Reds had 10 batters get at least 10 plate appearances against the Dodgers this season. Only TJ Friedl and Austin Hays hit over .211 among the group. Noelvi Marte hit .174, but he did hit two home runs in his six games.
The pitchers numbers aren’t a ton better than the ones the hitters had. 11 pitchers threw at least one inning against the Dodgers this season while with the Reds and were on the active roster when the season ended this weekend. Here’s how each of those guys performed.
When you look at the numbers for both the hitters and the pitchers against the Dodgers, you can see pretty clearly why Los Angeles went 5-1 against Cincinnati during the season.
Down The Stretch
There’s very little correlation between how a team is playing as they enter the playoffs and how they perform in the playoffs.
With that said, the Reds went 8-3 in their last 11 games and one of those losses came in extra innings. The Dodgers were even better, going 9-2 in their last 11 and winning the final five games of the year. Going back to September 7th they went 15-5 and two of those losses came in extra innings.
The Playoff History
For a long time the Cincinnati Reds and Los Angeles Dodgers shared a division and during that time there was no wild card. That meant that there was never going to be a matchup between the two clubs in the playoffs. The only time that the Reds and Dodgers have met in the playoffs was in 1995. Cincinnati swept them in a best-of-five series. They would win 7-2 and 5-4 in Los Angeles before returning home to pound the Dodgers 10-1 in game three.
That would be the last time that the Reds had a home win in a playoff game. It was also the last time that Cincinnati advanced in the playoffs. That was 30 years ago. The Reds have only made the playoffs five times since then and one of those times came in 2020 when eight teams made the playoffs in each league. The Dodgers have made the playoffs 18 times since then, and this year is their 13th season in a row that they’ve made it. They won the World Series in 2020 and in 2024.
The World Series Odds
Some of you hate it. And the rest of you REALLY hate it. Probably. But Fangraphs has updated their odds for each team in the playoffs to win the World Series. And things aren’t in favor of the Cincinnati Reds, who are tied for the lowest odds of hoisting that beautiful trophy at the end of the year with the Cleveland Guardians at 1.5%. Here’s the it looks like for each of the playoff teams according to Fangraphs at 3:07am on Monday morning.
| Team | W | L | Win WS% |
| Seattle Mariners | 90 | 72 | 20.0% |
| Philadelphia Phillies | 96 | 66 | 16.7% |
| Los Angeles Dodgers | 93 | 69 | 15.9% |
| Toronto Blue Jays | 94 | 68 | 10.8% |
| New York Yankees | 94 | 68 | 10.2% |
| Milwaukee Brewers | 97 | 65 | 6.7% |
| San Diego Padres | 90 | 72 | 5.8% |
| Boston Red Sox | 89 | 73 | 3.8% |
| Chicago Cubs | 92 | 70 | 3.7% |
| Detroit Tigers | 87 | 75 | 3.5% |
| Cincinnati Reds | 83 | 79 | 1.4% |
| Cleveland Guardians | 88 | 74 | 1.4% |
Facing a lefty like Snell will be tough with Hayes and McClain almost certainly in the line up and they are currently clueless at the plate. I prefer Stewart at 3B because we know that the Reds will need to score some runs. Hopefully Hays will be able to go in LF.
Tito may believe that preventing runs is important, too. There’s a strong chance that the Reds won’t score many against Snell, regardless of whom they put in the lineup and, in that case, assisting Greene by making the plays could be critical. It will be interesting to see what Tito decides.
Green, that is truly the worst of Tito right there; that mindset. Defense is worthless if you can’t score any runs. Stewart is an elite baseball player, and has played 3rd base much of his life. Is he a Hayes at 3rd base? Of course not, but his bat is the tool that this horrible offense needs. Yesterday, was telling. Tito sent out his WORST lineup of the Brewers series, and it was as expected. You can’t have a lineup that the last 3 hitters are glorified hitting pitchers. Not to mention, Green is a strikeout pitcher, so defense isn’t as important as it is with some other pitchers. Stewart and Andujar should be in every post season game we play.
Everyone says Stewart is this or that. He is still way young in his career and from what I have seen struggles with the low and away pitch. I like how Terry Francona wants as much defense has he can put out there.
Again as Green mentioned will be interesting to see how Francona manages in the playoffs. He has two world series championships
Stewart was an elite minor league hitter who has shown flashes of that in limited MLB time. We all hope that he becomes what his fans trust that he will, but if he fails to become a hitting star , he would be far from the first to do so. Defense is about preventing runs, and that is hardly worthless. A run prevented has as much impact on your chance of winning as a run scored. If a manager loads his lineup with good field/no hit guys, scoring more than one’s opponent will be difficult. Conversely, good hit/no field lineups can result in worn out and frustrated pitchers whose effectiveness decreases sharply as the season progresses, as the entire staff deals with high-scoring games, inflated pitch counts, and no guarantee of a win. By playing Hayes, Tito is nowhere near a good field/no hit lineup. Add McLain and he still isn’t. I don’t generally second guess Tito, but I would play Stewart–at first base or DH–and move Steer to 2nd (assuming he can throw well enough), benching McLain.
A guy named Brooks Robinson single-handedly neutralized a pretty stout Reds lineup in the 1970 World Series. It was as incredible to watch as it was demoralizing. Play the guys that flash the leather.
I would also factor in that LA’s best hitters are LH and that coupled with Greene striking a lot of hitters out reduces the value of the defense first player at 3B. You’d have a better argument at 1B actually.
Brooks Robinson hit .429 with a couple home runs in that 5-game series too, so it just wasn’t his glove that beat them in ’70.
Hunter strikes 11 per nine innings, so that accounts for a bit more than a third of the outs, leaving plenty of fielding necessary. Most of it routine? Sure (though we’ve all seen routine plays botched by the Reds this season), but most of a hitter’s plate appearances will not result in a positive outcome, either. Interesting point about LA’s lefties. I have no idea whether any of them go to the opposite field much, but additionally, when a lefty’s up, the third baseman essentially covers shortstop and third, so Stewart’s limited range could bite them hard. I wish he already knew how to play left field, though second base might work, flanked as he would be by Steer and Elly who could reduce the range he’d need.
Brooks put on an unbelievable fielding clinic. As I recall–and take it for what my 79 year old brain is worth–Craig Nettles put on a similar clinic for the Yankees a few years later.
He struggles with that low and away pitch that he sat back and smashed the other way for a HR in game two of the Brewers series. The second of his 5 HR’s he has hit on low and away pitches to the opposite field already. The only time he struggles is when he sits on the bench and is asked to come in and pinch hit!
Greenmtred, good point about 3B covering SS more with LH hitters. I was looking at it as a 3B didn’t have to worry about a screamer down the line as much as if your best hitters were RH pull hitters.
Both points are valid but 3B could possibly have to cover more ground, as you say. The power differences between the 2 3Bmen matters too… especially on a team that doesn’t possess much batter.
The thing is, things could happen the opposite way that you plan for, either way.
I do like the way Hayes fun’s the bases there are also situations to ph that you need a home run. It’s also nice to have a home run threat get 4-5 AB’s vs 1.
There are arguments that support both options.
Absolutely, Brian. That’s why I favor Stewart playing, but at first or second base, with Steer covering the other.
I kinda see where you’re going Geenmtred, I’m assuming you won’t have any power option left on the bench. 1st and 2 nd basemen will probably be busy with this those good lefty bats
Hunter may strike put 11 per nine innings, but how often has he gone nine innings. Therefore, whether he accounts 1/3 of the outs in the game with strikeouts will depend on how deep he goes.
Stewart has shown flashes of brilliance in his brief time up. But he has also shown flashes that were not so brilliant. Hence the five HRs is brilliant but the .255 average and a low OBP are pedestrian.
Tito rarely starts Lux (or Benson) vs a lefty. I think Stewart will start at 1B and Steer in LF.
Once Snell is chased out of the game, Lux will likely pinch hit and stay in the game.
But we have Andujar. Lets get some traffic on the basepaths ahead of him.
McLain struggles against virtually every pitcher. His road numbers for the 2025 season, .193 average, .550 ops, are atrocious. His numbers aren’t injury related either, it’s a lack of pitch and zone recognition. He isn’t a starter. Period.
Defense is essential, no arguing that, but a common theme among our 2025 Reds is an inconsistent offense. An inability to consistently score runs with runners in scoring position. I’m all for a starting group that can manufacture runs. Late inning defensive replacements are fine with me but not in a starting capacity.
Maybe Espinal should get a start. His defense is as good and his hitting has been better approximately 25 points better on batting average.
I’d be good with Espinal. You’re right, great defense and a better hitting option with way less strikeouts too. Good call.
I’d argue, Jason, that sloppy defense has been a common theme this season, too, and has cost runs and increased pitch counts. The late inning defensive replacements idea ignores that poor fielding can allow runs in any inning. Again, I’m not advocating for an entirely defense first lineup, but Hayes is the third most valuable defender in baseball, regardless of position, and his skill is arguably the single most extraordinary skill on the current team. In yesterday’s game, Steer’s nice backhand behind first saved at least one and possibly two runs at a point when the Reds still had the lead.
@greenmtred, you make some compelling points. I agree with what you’re saying. I should have been clearer when I’m really just wanting McLain removed from the starting lineup. I actually still feel Hayes can turn it around offensively. He’s been the victim of some good contact, no results for good contact at times. His gold glove defense is otherworldly impressive. And even if his offense never gets that much better we’re still a better team with him in the starting lineup. I’d have Stewart at first and slide Steer to 2nd.
Sloppy defense has absolutely caused extra runs and elevated pitch count. I’m firmly in the move Elly to the outfield camp ala Marte. Makes the Reds a much better, more well rounded team.
Thanks, Jason. I agree with everything you said except for moving Elly, and my mind is nearly on the fence with that one.
I don’t know if Tito favors defense over offense.I do know Hayes was acquired to play and not set on the bench.His lack of offense would mean less if the Reds didn’t have holes in other spots.Yesterday along with Trevino and MM that’s to much to overcome and the numbers say so this year.In the playoffs the pitcher will be more likely to pitch around a better hitter to get to a lesser hitter.I would not pitch to Steer for example if any one of those 3 I mentioned were hitting behind him.Tito will do what he normally does I would expect.Who knows Hunter may spin a shut out and Hayes or MM or both save the game on defense and Reds win 1-0.GO REDS
Before Saturday night’s game, Francona specifically told Charlie Goldsmith that he was prioritizing infield defense against the Brewers. His lineups have demonstrated his preference in multiple other matchups.
https://x.com/charlieg__/status/1971967472560443886?s=61
It’s time to bring the Dodgers down to earth. It’s unlikely, but so was sweeping Chicago and taking 5he series from Milwaukee. The question is which Reds team the Dodgers see – the one that swept Chicago or the one swept by the As? Knocking the Dodgers out of the playoffs would be the greatest Reds performance in decades.
We have the arms to play with anyone, especially in a 3 game series. We just need the bats to show up.
We just need the bats to show up.
Yep, we’ve been waiting 162 games for that to happen 😉
We also need Tito to let the bats play. It’s downright criminal to have Stewart and Andujar’s bats on the bench.
Hard to be too critical of Tito’s lineups since they made the playoffs. At least, his lineups seem more tactical vs. having been set days before, if not longer, and short of injury, not changing. But, yes, I agree it’s hard to imagine Stewart or Andujar sitting for about anyone on the team.
Had the arms in 2020 and we seen how that went. You have to score runs. Im optimistic they can figure it out but just “getting hot” probably wont cut it. The Dodgers staff isnt the one teams get hot while playing. Ill let Tito figure the lineup out but yesterday was my official last day being a McClain defender. He looked lost.
You think about this being a great financial boost to the Reds organization but unless the get a home game or two+ down the line this will probably cost the team money. I remember a radio interview with Paul Brown when the Bengals played in their first Super Bowl he was asked about the financial windfall it made for the team. He explained that after sending everyone there (including wives he said grudgedly), putting them up in hotels, all all the other expenses, it actually cost him money.
If you remember Brown let Walsh walk four years earlier because Walsh wanted some say in draft picks. Some would say that was karma. That choice cost him and Bengal fans probably a few super bowls.
Cant wait. I’m gonna be draggin at work this week. Late nights for this Reds/Bengals fan.
I’d feel better about the Bengals if Tito was the head coach and not Zac Taylor!
Yeah. Dont even get me started on that clown.
1000% Dennis, Taylor is terrible
Going to watch regardless but hopefully we’re all rewarded for our late night loyalty with some Cincy wins.
Go Reds and Bengals!
Being retired I can take an afternoon nap to prepare for Reds, I could care less about the Bengals.
Do we have a 26 man roster?
It would seem positionally:
TS/Trevino C (2)
Steer 1b
McLain 2b
Elly SS
Hayes 3b
Hays/Friedl/Marte/Benson Lux OF (5)
Andujar DH
That’s 12- then either Sal or Espinal for 13.
People going to lose their minds, but Tito is going to want Espinal as the 13th guy as a utility infielder and back up SS./2b/3b if some thing happens. I also don’t think you play the Dodgers with only 12 pitchers in a 3 game playoff format.
Pitchers- Greene/Lodolo/Abbott/Littel/Martinez -5
Burns/Ashcraft/Santillan/Pagan/Suter/Barlow/Phillips-7
I think they actually keep Singer as depth if its goes to a game 3 on Thursday and he could be available for a couple innings.
Not saying I agree but that’s how I see it unfolding based on Tito’s history.
Tito regularly plays 2 to 3 guys every game that can’t hit. If you’re correct about the position players above, I’m really hoping Stewart makes over Espy.
If nothing else, Stewart needs to be there to soak up the experience. And hopefully he’s starting Tuesday since we’re facing a lefty. Otherwise, Melvin may lose it!
Naw. 😉 …..Well….maybe. 🙂
Good question. I was wondering, arent the rosters expanded in Sept and/or for the playoffs? What prompted my curiosity was that I realized we’ve seen no sign of CES this September.
28 players in September, back to 26 for the playoffs.
I would say we should swap Espy for McLain and then add Sal
I don’t think Espy is any worse than McLain who has just been awful. Hope he comes back ok next year but I cringe every time he comes up. He is almost like a bad luck charm
Don’t think you need 13 pitchers for playoff format baseball. Can definitely get by with 4 starters instead of 5. So 12 pitchers gives yo a 14th position player.
First, let’s take a moment to celebrate the Reds qualifying for the playoffs on the final day of the season. That had never happened before, and it was fun to follow, especially the last stretch with a clutch four game sweep of the Cubs, and series wins against the Cards and Brewers. Great stuff.
Second, if the Reds starting pitching stays healthy (Lodolo) then I don’t think they’re a huge underdog in LA. They had a winning record against winning teams this year, and showed the last two weeks they can hang with anyone. In any case for the first time in 12 years, the Reds will play postseason games after a full season. I’ll be glued to the TV. Go Reds!
In any case for the first time in 12 years, the Reds will play postseason games after a full season.
Hopefully we won’t have to wait another 12 years to see it again!
At age 72 (73 in December) I don’t think I can wait another 12 years!
@ Dennis, 70 in November for me! Right when we’ve got good young starters & a few in the pipeline.
I hope that Brandon Williamson can help in some way in 26. Lowder, Burns!!
it’s clear the Reds are outsiders. They own the worst W-L record of the 12 teams and have fought a lot until the game 162 to clinch. They have many weaknesses especially on the offense and defense. The pitching , fight spirit and the resilience is their strength. This series against LAD looks like a kind of David vs Goliath fight so the only way I think the Reds could do something is limiting the Dodgers up to 3 runs. The Dodgers bullpen was struggling recently but maybe they will reshape this aspect.
I think if the Reds can win the first game, it’s likely Tito considers Littell for the 2nd game since Lodolo is in doubt. But if they lose the first game , Lodolo would start to throw at least 3 or 4 innings unless he felt something wrong before the game…I’m hesitant Tito will use Abbott on short rest for a 2nd game…
How about some Monday morning fun with the Fangraphs World Series projections?
If my quick comparison of the final standings on MLB(.)com is accurate:
The Reds won the season series versus 5 of the other 11 teams still playing and split with another team still in the mix.
Head to head, the Reds bettered all the other wildcards except Boston, plus a division winner, Cleveland.
The Reds split with division winning Philadelphia, who would be the Reds’ second round opponent if they sneak by the Dodgers.
The Reds must be in Fangraphs’ lowest tier because the projection algorithm doesn’t see a realistic chance for the Reds to get by the Dodgers, who won the head to head 5-1 over the Reds.
It’s interesting Jim. Reds went 33-32 overall against the other 11 playoff teams … But only considering the Dodgers and the further possible opponents Cubs/SD and Brewers they went 18-20 overall against them…No so bad considering in playoffs games stranger things often can occur
Again, regular season records have little bearing for playoff results IMO, especially in a short 3-game series!
Plus, since MLB went to the new format with 3 wild card teams, I read somewhere or heard it form those “experts” at ESPN that the No. 6 seed has won nearly as often as the No. 1 seed.
Yes, since MLB doesn’t reseed between rounds, if the #6 seed beats the #3 overall (lowest division winner) in round 1, they get the #2 overall instead of the #1. Meanwhile, the #1 gets either the top or second wildcard instead of the lowest team in the bracket.
Nobody but Reds fans thought the 90 teream had a chance against the mighty Oakland Athletics in that world series either and the Reds clobbered them.
No one thought that team was making it out of the NL playoffs let alone beating the A’s
That was the wire to wire team. Many fans believed that year.. we had the nasty boys..
I will never forget that 1990 World Series! My late wife was 8-months pregnant with my youngest son and I had to keep her calm so she wouldn’t go into labor while watching on the couch!
And I find it interesting, Chris, that the 1990 team was very similar to Tito’s good Cleveland teams: Good pitching, outstanding bullpen, outstanding defense and good situational hitting.
here is my starting lineup Game 1 (assuming Snell)
CF Friedl
RF Marte
DH Andujar
LF Hays
SS Elly
1B Steer
3B Stewart
C Stephenson
2B McClain
I like it. Afraid though that Tito is going to want KBH at 3B for glove and more experienced player.
Steer at 2b and Stewart at 1B. You can’t roll out a lineup that is more likely to get shut out than to score 2+ runs regardless of how great the defense is.
Stephenson at catcher leaves the only weak spot as Hayes at 3B. Rather than having 3 auto outs with Treviso, Hayes, and McLain.
I like Steer at 2B, but Steer hasn’t logged a single inning there all year, including Spring Training. I can’t see the Reds making that defensive change in the playoffs.
I think that you’re probably right, BK, though he has played there and considers it his best position. But the playoffs seem likely to induce caution.
austin hays will be starting in left. I think i would roll the dice and leave hays at
3b, DH Andulhar, and run Stewar out at 2nd and Steer at 1b ( unless you swap steer and stewart)
Have not seen either Steer or Stewart play 2B but I think Steer came up as a 2B out of Oregon St?
Steer says that second is his best position. If he’s better there than he is at first, we wouldn’t miss McLain’s defense.
Sometimes the most forgotten player turns up big in the MLB playoffs! anyone else remember Billy Hatcher for the Reds in the 1990 World Series?
Sure do. He picked a perfect time to play his best baseball. I think the outfield led the majors in assists. OT? Can you weigh in?
For the Reds in this series, it might be Matt McLain getting a whiff of hometown air and forgetting about everything that has happened since that fateful day he hurt his shoulder in the spring of 2024.
I was thinking (and hoping) the same thing for MM!
Yep, eight consecutive hits as I recall!
Hatcher hit .519 in the 1990 post season and .750 in the World Series, breaking Babe Ruth’s record. Hatcher set WS records for most consecutive hits (7) and most doubles (4) in a 4-game series! A great Reds player!
I think in regards to playoff rosters, it’s pretty telling that in the month of September:
Stewart — 18 games and 55 AB’s
Espinal – 5 games and 3 AB’s
I suspect they will go with 12 pitchers and 14 position guys, meaning no changes will be required beyond dropping a pitcher. Not that switching a couple of guys out wouldn’t give them a better roster.
Ooops, guess they have to drop 2 pitchers instead of one to get to 12, but I still suspect they will do that rather than drop a position guy.
I, too, am in the ‘play Stewart at 3B with a lefty in the mound for LA’ camp. We need the offense, as the last game clearly demonstrated. Again.
Game 1 will be a low-scoring game I’m guessing with Greene and Snell pitching! To that end, every at bat and hit will matter! But as always. I will defer to Tito’s wisdom and experience!
I’d prefer to have Stewart in the lineup Game 1, but I don’t see Francona doing that Game 1. Maybe Game 2 Stewart starts I think. Reds I think will need a big hit from hit at some point in the series though whether pinch hit, or from being in the starting lineup.
I think Stewart’s only chance of starting in this series is versus a lefty, which means game 1.
I’d like to start him every game, then switch out with Hayes once we have a lead in the last third of the game, but this won’t happen.
Yes, defer to Tito. He got us this far.
And every run prevented will matter.
Who is going to start game 2 is the biggest decision Francona needs to make. On the offense side, Francona will probably stay with his usual line up facing a lefty, it really matters little. We won’t win with offense. We win with strong SP and RP and play a clean game defensively. If the offense does the little things right like hitting sac flies, we might be able to get 3 runs in a game 1.
Just here to once again tell Jason Williams at the Enquirer to try to enjoy life a little, man. The Negative Nancy schtick is excruciatingly tiring and just doesn’t do anything for anyone. Is this what you want to do with your life, just spew negativity and rile people up? It’s not good for your health, or good for anything, really. Lighten up.
In case anyone doesn’t know, today’s headline was basically “Reds are in the playoffs, BUT… they’re terrible.”
A few days ago, in the midst of an exciting run to the playoffs, his choice of articles was “Reds are not a baseball town, they suck, the fans are apathetic, it’s laughable.” Again, this is in the midst of an improbable playoff run.
And a few months ago it was “Reds season is over, they should trade Hunter Greene NOW.” He actually said that.
Somebody has to call out this miserable, wrong-headed whiner. So I’ll keep doing it. And go Reds!
Agree with you %100. I stopped reading his articles a while back.
Yep. I only read the snippet that shows up in the search engine, which is enough because all he does is bait people with inflammatory headlines in order to get clicks. So, like you, I don’t give him the clicks.
Don’t read the Cincinnati Enquirer anymore now that the online version requires a paid subscription!
Nothing would make me happier than a Reds-Mariners World Series. I’m in Seattle now and the M’s are the one team I wouldn’t mind if we lost to.