The Cincinnati Reds lost right-handed pitcher Levi Stoudt on waivers over the weekend. He was designated for assignment when the club claimed outfielder Bubba Thompson on waivers last week as the Reds needed to create a 40-man roster spot.

Stoudt was claimed by the Seattle Mariners. That’s the same club that drafted him back in 2019 and the same club that then traded him to Cincinnati in July of 2022 in the deal that sent Luis Castillo to the Mariners and brought back Noelvi Marte, top prospect Edwin Arroyo, and relief prospect Andrew Moore.

One of the Mariners better pitching prospects at the time of the trade, Stoudt had flashed some good stuff, but he had a 5.28 ERA through 18 starts at the Double-A level at the time of the trade. He would make six starts in the Reds organization after the trade, and throw 24.0 innings with a 2.63 ERA. But things went south in 2023. He would make his big league debut in April, and throw 10.1 innings in the big leagues throughout the season, but allowed 11 runs in those innings and walked eight batters. His time in Triple-A with Louisville wasn’t a lot better, posting a 6.23 ERA in 82.1 innings spread out over 25 games that saw him walk 50 batters, hit seven others, and strike out just 58.

After arriving in Peoria where the Mariners spring training facility is, Stoudt told Ryan Divish of the Seattle Times that he was excited, and happy to be back. Part of the reason he was happy to be back is that he likes Seattle’s pitching development system better than the one with the Reds.

“It was different,” he told the Seattle Times. “It was a little bit of I’d say lack of direction, in my sense. It was kind of not much of a philosophy. It was kind of just go play baseball and we’ll help you along the way.”

“That’s the most exciting thing for me is to get back to that process of them looking at me and saying, ‘all right, this is what we know and what can we do to make you the best version of yourself.”

That’s not exactly a ringing endorsement of the Reds from Stoudt. Of course, Stoudt struggled in a big way during his time with the organization, and it came at two levels he never pitched at with the Mariners before he was traded. That may or may not have to do with the philosophy of the club, but it does seem clear that at least in his specific case, the Reds didn’t have anything like a plan for him when compared to how Seattle had one before he left the organization.

154 Responses

  1. RedFuture

    I can’t give a lot of credence to his comments! Even if true, the lack of philosophy left him free to keep the great one he already knew from the Mariners!

  2. Klugo

    Safe to say we probably ain’t gonna be claiming him back again.

    • JayTheRed

      From what I saw of his work in the minors and at the big-league level we are not missing out on too much here. Moving on.

  3. RedsFan76

    Very concerning reading those comments. Hoping it’s not true and just a shot toward the Reds for releasing him. That being said, I’m surprised the Reds let him walk. With them bringing in Bubba, I feel like waiving Martini would have been the better option.

    • Chris

      I don’t, especially now. Stoudt is a whiner and clearly is looking to blame others for his failures. Good riddance.

      • Jason Franklin

        He probably is still hurt after Bell left him in during that one start when he gave up like a billion runs and blew his era to hell.

      • Robert Hawk

        I think what you’re saying is “these are the whelps of a beaten cur”. I love that line out of Eight Men Out.

      • Currcoug

        Mariners fan here, just elated to have Stoudt back in the system, but I am still nursing wounds regarding the loss of both Marte and Arroyo. That was incredibly painful.

  4. JB WV

    Hmm…wonder what Ashcraft and Abbot would say about the system. Younger and already pitching well in the Majors without any guidance. Starting to understand why this guy was put on waivers

  5. Mark Moore

    Slight hint of sour grapes flavoring I think

    • William

      Excuses. Excuses. I watched this pitcher and knew months ago he was not that good. I had already crossed him off the board as part of the Reds future. The Reds made a good choice here.

  6. Old Big Ed

    I suppose that if Derek Johnson had retreated to a corner of the bullpen and meditated more, then Stoudt would not have walked 5.5/9IP and struck out 6.3/9IP, or given up 20 homers in 82.1 innings, en route to his 6.23 ERA in AAA.

    My general pitching philosophy is to avoid throwing hitting-speed pitches in the middle of the strike zone. Stoudt should try it.

  7. SultanofSwaff

    Well, for those doubting him, what IS the Red’s pitching philosophy? As best I can tell from what I’ve read, it’s to try and strike everyone out. Admirable goal, but it seems to shoehorn pitchers of differing strikeout abilities into the same mold. In practice, from my perspective that leads to high pitch counts and overreliance on a pitcher’s best pitch which in turn makes them more predictable. What we know it isn’t is the data driven approach that saw Kyle Boddy dismissed after one year (yet his business is absolutely thriving to this day).

    It’s that chicken and egg thing—is Derek Johnson ‘good’ because of his philosophy or because he is working with more talented players? For me, I’m inclined to say the latter. For years now there’s been no appreciable improvement in where the pitching staff has ranked. I would think even with less talented players we could point to some incremental progress, but ON THE WHOLE it hasn’t materialized. That’s not to say DJ should be dismissed, but that he’s more of a caretaker than innovator.

    • Old Big Ed

      Johnson wrote a book that is still available. He generally likes to simplify deliveries and emphasize basic mechanics, while allowing a guy to stray from the basics a bit if he feels more comfortable and pitches effectively.

      I don’t know what “pitching philosophy” actually means. Hunter Greene and Andrew Abbott, for example, are not a whole lot alike; neither were Jose Rijo and Tom Browning. So, a pitching coach by necessity has to individualize his coaching to every man on the staff, and I assume that they all use some variation of the old bromide of “throw strikes, but don’t give him anything to hit.”

      It isn’t as if Johnson hasn’t employed the technology. He coached the well-regarded Caleb Cotham at Vandy, then hired him as an assistant coach here, before Cotham went on to coach the Phillies’ staff. The two of them came up with “Spincinnati,” which seems to have retreated post Spider-tac. Johnson then revived Sonny Gray, by changing the pitch mix that the hapless Yankees wanted him to throw.

      The Reds have had some bad luck with pitching lately. Greene, Ashcraft and Lodolo all went down last year not with arm injuries but with leg/hip problems. That loss of innings put the whole staff behind the chains last season. And Tyler Stephenson from youth and injury has not yet developed into the kind of defensive catcher that they had in Tucker Barnhart. Stephenson’s injury is behind him now.

    • Beaufort Red

      Guess Abbott didn’t buy into the “strike everyone out “ philosophy.

    • Woodrow

      Boddy wasn’t dismissed. Per his own comments, his contract was running out, he wanted a larger role / promotion that didn’t come and he moved on instead of staying in the same spot. Driveline remains strong and he waited a couple years to find that larger role.

      • MK

        Woodrow this a matter of semantics. If you are in a job where you either m move up or move out and you are not given the option to move up then call it what you want, but they got rid of you.

      • Chris

        MK, that’s a stretch. A baseball team isn’t an organization with a huge wide tree of positions. What role do you think Boddy would have moved into that wasn’t taken by someone already?

      • Optimist

        It’s not even a matter of semantics – as I understand it, the Reds have retained or hired several staffers either from Driveline, or with ties to it. And, on social media Boddy often comments positively about the Reds and their focus. They clearly want what Driveline is selling even if it’s not at the personnel level Boddy wanted. As Woodrow notes, he left when his contract expired, and I have no doubt if the Reds changed their org structure to his liking, they’d mutually reconsider possible roles.

        Really just an organizational difference, neither a promotion or dismissal was involved.

      • MK

        Chris, Woodrow mentioned he wanted a larger role. To me that means he wanted to move up. Maybe he wanted a role with the Big League Team. I think last I checked there were 10 uniformed coaches and associates.

    • Stock

      Wade Miley would disagree with you. DJ turned him from a journeyman with an ERA great than 5 his prior two years to a pitcher with an ERA of 3.57 over the last 6 years. And it is difficult to call Miley a strike everyone out type of pitcher.

      Sonny Gray had a 4.59 ERA in the three years prior to joining the Reds and a 3.22 ERA since.

      Ian Gibaut was a let go and the Reds claimed him off waivers. Last year his ERA was 3.33

      Buck Farmer’s ERA went to over 6 to about 4 the last two years with the Reds.

      Sam Moll had an ERA of 4.54 in Oakland last year. His ERA in Cincinnati was 0.73

      The Reds bullpen last year was good (not great but good) and most were castoffs that other teams did not want.

      I credit DJ for turning these pitchers around. Your description of strike everyone out is not what I see. Therefore, I disagree with you and Stoudt.

      I have no clue if this is true but the Reds let go of someone from their 40 man roster for someone they considered to be #42 or #43 just a couple of months ago. I think Stoudt came to Goodyear after a lazy winter and upset the coaching staff. They reamed him a new a hole and when Thompson became available they took advantage of the opportunity to get rid of a cancer.

      • Lars

        Stoudt was designated for assignment on February 13. Pitchers reported February 14. I don’t know if he ever was in Goodyear.

      • Stock

        Pitchers and Catchers reported on the 13th with the first workout on the 14th.

      • Reaganspad

        I look at the progress of Williamson last year as exhibit A for pitching development. A1 is Ashcraft who looked like a Stoudt maybe when he was in A ball.

        Not every pitcher in A ball is gonna develop to be the Stud that Ashcraft now is. It seamed like the pitching coaches were big on both of those guys establishing a 2 seamer or sinker that they would both ride to ML success. Abbott was a reliever in college. Somebody had a plan to develop him as a starting pitcher

      • JB

        Let’s do remember that the bullpen was top 10 and pitching well into August. They just ran out of gas because the starters were gassed or injured. It was just one of those years and everybody remembers the bullpen late in the year instead of the whole year. You got to hand it to them for only losing out by a couple of games. They were pulling guys basically off the street.

  8. LDS

    I suspect Stoudt is probably right. Certainly, the Reds pitching performance in the DJ era is near the bottom of all MLB teams. Seattle has faired much better.

    • greenmtred

      It would make sense to consider who was pitching for the Reds during the Johnson era. Silk purses, sow’s ears, and all of that….

      • Justin T

        Isnt he paid to develop pitching/pitchers? He knew the Reds weren’t signing big time free agent pitchers when he took the job. Id like to at least see one success story for DJ or the Reds in general from the last 5 years. I see hype, excuses and injuries. I see Joe Boyle leave here and immediately cut his walks down, I see guys over throwing and an abnormal amount of lower body injuries for young pitchers. Id be interested to hear what you see that gives you faith in the Reds development of pitching.

      • Stock

        Justin it is fair to want examples of success stories.

        How about Wade Miley, Sonny Gray, Sam Moll and almost the entire 2023 bullpen.

        How about Andrew Abbott’s surge after DJ was given responsibility of the entire minor league organization after the 2022 year.

        How about the resurgence of Lyon Richardson.

        How about the growth of 12th round draft pick Julian Aguiar.

        How about a healthy Nick Lodolo.

        Ashcraft looks pretty special at times as does Greene.

        How about the growth of Tyler Mahle from a pitcher with ERA’s north of 5 to one under 4 and good enough to trade for Steer and CES.

        The examples are out there. I am not sure you even need to squint to find them because there are so many and the improvements are so dramatic.

      • DaveCT

        Joe Boyle’s history is to have short runs where things are working well, then revert. Joe’s success with the A’s was three games and 15 innings.

        Luis Castillo, on the other hand, grew quite a bit under DJ. Tyler Mahle went from a 7th round pick to someone who gleaned Steer, CES and one of the players traded for Benson. Stock mentions Sonny Gray and Andrew Abbott. But look at Alexis Diaz, a 12th round pick. Look at Brandon Williamson’ success directly under DJ. Look at Lodolo and Ashcraft and Sims and Antone when healthy. Look at Kevin Glausman’s turnaround under DJ that he flipped into great ML success. And look at a Cy Young winner in 2020, under DJ.

        Conversely, look at Stephenson, Garrett, Romano, Davis, Reed, Lamb, Corcino, etc who failed to develop under Price.

    • Old Big Ed

      The Mariners have some very nice young pitchers, but so do the Reds. The Reds last year had Lodolo, Ashcraft and Williamson (who vastly improved from his AAA performance as the year went on) at age 25; Andrew Abbott at age 24; and Hunter Greene at age 23. We’ll see how Connor Phillips, Chase Petty, Rhett Lowder and Ty Floyd develop.

      Luis Castillo hasn’t really done any better in Seattle than at Cincinnati. He’s maybe walked fewer guys, but you would expect that of a pitcher of his age. Per Fangraphs, GABP was behind only Coors Field in hitter-friendliness, whereas Seattle had the most pitcher-friendly stadium over the past 3 seasons.

      The Reds’ staff is always going to look worse than it actually is, because of GABP. Tyler Mahle struggled there. Greene last year gave up HRs in 1 in 45 PAs on the road and 1 in 13 PAs at home. (Abbott was actually better at GABP.) And, of course, the Reds started Mike Minor and then Luke Weaver every 5th day for much of 2022 and 2023, which they won’t be doing this year.

    • VaRedsFan

      I tend to agree with LDS here. Spin rate and velocity seem to be an emphasis over actual pitching. Results are that guys turn into throwers instead of pitchers. Sure…more strikeouts which is good, but more walks and injuries are the negative result.

      Walks allowed…MLB rank
      2023 4th worst
      2022 Worst
      2021 Worst

      HR’s allowed…MLB Rank
      2023 8th worst
      2022 Worst
      2021 19th worst

      You might say, well, they lost several players to injury.
      The answer might be, that maybe this DJ philosophy is why there are so many injuries.

      I’d favor pitchers with control and changing speeds, over high velocity/high spin guys with no control.

      • Old Big Ed

        Eh, I don’t see how DJ’s “philosophy” caused Greene to have a bad hip, or Ashcraft to avoid a batted ball to his shin, or Lodolo’s lower leg problem.

        DJ did fine with Wade Miley and Andrew Abbott, who are control and command guys.

        The Reds’ pitchers throw half their innings in the second most hitter-friendly park in baseball. The Mariners have the most pitcher-friendly park in baseball.

      • Redsvol

        I think it’s probably more “you can’t do this unless you can do that” at an average level. In other words you can’t be a pitcher who relies on control and movement without having some basic level of speed and spin rate in todays MLB.

        Take a look at seattles young pitchers. Logan gilbert, George kirby, Bryan Woo and Bryce Miler all throw hard (95 or better) and have some of the highest spin rates in baseball. In addition, they can all locate and change speeds.

        In todays game, if you can’t spin the ball and average at least 93 on your heater, it doesn’t matter if you can change speeds.

        Seattles pitching development has been phenomenal under Jerry depoto. But it is clearly not the norm in mlb and I don’t think it’s been bad under dj & Bell. But it’s hard to compare to Seattle’s run.

    • Stock

      This is so wrong LDS. Once again you make statements without facts. Here are some facts:

      2016: Reds ERA: 4.91. League Avg ERA: 4.18
      2017: Reds ERA: 5.17 League Average ERA: 4.35
      2018: DJ’s last year in Milwaukee. Reds ERA: 4.63 League Average ERA: 4.14
      2019: DJ joins Reds. Reds ERA: 4.18 League Average ERA: 4.49
      2020: Reds ERA: 3.84. League Average ERA: 4.65
      2021: Reds ERA: 4.40. League Average ERA: 4.53

      In the three years prior to DJ joining the Reds the teams ERA was well below league average every year. In the three years after he joined the Reds the team ERA was well below league average. This is pretty much the opposite of what you state, LDS.

      Granted when the Reds blew it up in 2022 the ERA was not league average. And in 2023 when the went into the season without a plan to be competitive it was not league average.

      • AllTheHype

        Pretty much sums it up. If a person wanted specific evidence of DJ’s influence, look at Williamson and what he did for the MLB club once he worked with DJ on a daily basis, versus what he did in MiLB.

      • greenmtred

        And 2023 featured many injuries to starters and many innings pitched by replacements who weren’t MLB-ready pitchers.

      • LDS

        Cherry picking stats there @Stock. DJ’s early years were established pitchers like Castillo & Gray & the unmentionable guy. He has more blown arms than he has success stories. DJ hasn’t shown he can develop young pitchers. @VaRedsFan is right.

      • greenmtred

        He resuscitated Gray’s career. Castillo joined the Reds in 2017, before DJ did, and the Reds had–as Stock shows–a higher ERA than league average. Until DJ arrived, at which point the trend reversed. Such stats may not be definitive because they don’t include narrative that would tell us what other conditions (who was on the staff, who was injured, etc.) might have been factors, but Stock wasn’t cherry-picking them.

      • Oldtimer

        Reds ERA+ as a team was 112, 127, 107 in 2019-20-21.

        Reds ERA+ as a team was 90 in 2022 and 95 in 2023.

        100 ERA+ is NL average. DJ was P coach 2019-20-21-22-23.

  9. Jimbo44CN

    Could you please explain how Seattle has faired much better? Some stats please.

    • Doc

      Especially Stoudt, whose 5.28 ERA in AA at the trade is not exactly a favorable exhibit A for his case.

    • Justin T

      3rd in MLB in ERA in 2023 and 8th in ERA in 2022 while the Reds were 25th and 28th. They had 3 starters pitch over 190 innings and another
      Over 130 innings. They understand that you cannot win consistently going to the bullpen before the 5th/6th inning. I cannot blame David Bell for managing pitchers who arent big league ready.

      Hunter Greene is in year 3, has been hurt alot and the big question surrounding him is “will he develop a consistent 3rd pitch?”. Thats your prized young pitcher and there are still development concerns. As far as Stroudt, the logical question is why the kid would make it up. Sounds like he was answering the question.

      Alot of posters are dismissive of losing Stroudt but were awfully excited about him last year. Anytime you trade a generational pitcher like Castillo youd like to see something uniquely positive come from it on the other side.

      • Doc

        Marte and Arroyo may well be the uniquely positive return that you want to see.

      • Stock

        Seattle has drafted more SP than the Reds. Is their drafting superior? Is their development superior? Is their injury luck superior? Are injuries a result of poor development?

      • DaveCT

        Stock, is the M’s stadium a monstrous cavern?

        (It is. I’ve been there).

        Great park. Spectacularly beautiful. Great location. just stunning. And great to pitch in. Plus Luis and Julio.*

        This (Seattle) may become a site of Latino baseball fervor, is my opinion. It won’t be out of the blue to any out here. The city of Everett, the M’s High-A location, has a significant Latino population. And these AquaSox are followed. Dude named Marte was there the season he was traded.

      • JayTheRed

        He was a throw in type to me at the trade when the Reds got him. I have never been high on him at any point. As far as getting something unique as you say. I think Marte and others in that trade have provided that pretty well.

    • Stock

      Seattle has faired much better but look at the drafts. From 2018 – 2020 (these players should be at or near the majors): Seattle drafted 7 pitchers in the first 3 rounds including all three 1st round picks.

      Cincinnati drafted 4 pitchers in the first 3 rounds with only Lodolo being a 1st round draft pick.

  10. wkuchad

    Unrelated, but a pretty cool stat for Steer from The Athletic:

    “Last season Steer became just the fourth Reds player to make at least 15 appearances at four positions in one season, playing 73 games at first base, 47 at third base, 45 in left field and 16 at second base. He also played three games in right field. The last player to appear in at least 15 games at four positions was Ryan Freel in 2004. Lenny Harris (1996) and Bip Roberts (1992) were the others.”

    • Justin T

      The statistics say he was below average at all 4 positions too.

      • VaRedsFan

        He made a few errors as he moved around the diamond, but he was not an embarrassment at any place he played. He made most of the routine plays, and had spectacular moments at every position, which is quite good for a rookie. He should have no problem improving his defense in his 2nd year.

      • JayTheRed

        Hey Justin, just a question. Do you ever have anything positive to say about the Reds ever. I can’t recall too many times where you have even had a positive spin on something. Sure, you point out facts, but I don’t recall seeing you be happy about anything the Reds do. Could you share some things that you like about the Reds on here. This way I know you’re actually a fan of this team.

  11. Randy in Chatt

    Let’s see if the Seattle way can keep him from a 5.00+ ERA, bad walk and home run rate. If not, maybe it wasn’t the Reds, maybe it was him. Good riddance.

  12. AllTheHype

    I guess we’ll see how he does. Maybe he is right, or maybe it is resentment talking. Boyle is another case. He had success in Oakland after the trade. It will be another case to watch.

    • DaveCT

      Boyle’s success was 3 starts and 15 innings, something he’s done his entire career, before reverting.

  13. Nick in NKY

    Considering the differences in individual pitchers, I’m not necessarily sure what a ‘pitching philosophy’ should look like. But we should keep an eye on Stoudt, and if he achieves large improvements this year in Seattle’s system, then the topic might be worth looking into further.

    • Doc

      Assuming the Reds young pitchers don’t achieve similar improvements this year.

      One point in Seattle’s favor is that 4 of their 5 starters in their 88 win season were drafted by Seattle, Castillo being the exception. Two of those were originally drafted by other teams, didn’t sign, then were drafted by Seattle a couple years later.

      • Nick in NKY

        Also true, if the young Reds rotation makes leaps and bounds as well as Seattle, then it probably all comes out in the wash.

        I guess my question remains though; what exactly does a team’s “pitching philosophy” look like?

      • DaveCT

        Doc, in fairness, the M’s lost Robbie Ray and Marco Gonzalez for the year. And their #6 guy, Flexen also flamed out.

        That said, boy can they develop relievers!. Their record there is even better than for starters.

        Very fun org and team to follow.

    • greenmtred

      As OBE points out, Seattle has the most pitcher-friendly park in MLB and the Reds have the 2nd least.

      • Nick in NKY

        That’s an excellent point that I had forgotten.

      • DaveCT

        It’s a really beautiful park but it crushes power.

        The House That Jr Griffey Built.

  14. William

    Derek Johnson is a good pitching coach. He is not the Reds problem.

    • Willaim

      I only comment because I think this is a fake problem. Ask Sonny Gray if Derek Johnson is a good pitching coach. I agree with criticism of the manager, but the pitching coach has a good track record that is longer than his time with the Reds. I think the young pitching prospects will take a step forward this year. Hold Johnson accountable for what happens this year.

    • Justin T

      The numbers would disagree, leading the league in walks 2 out of 3 years and bottom 5 the other year. Near the bottom in nearly every statistic you can find. Its actually pretty astounding to be that bad in nearly every metric. Wheres the evidence to show he is a good pitching coach
      William?

      • Doc

        Where is the evidence to show that DJ’s instruction is the cause of the walks? I’m fairly confident that DJ did not instruct pitchers to walk more hitters, and Stoudt didn’t give any specifics.

      • Stock

        I agree that pitchers who pitch for DJ walk more than other pitchers. However, I am not so sure that is a bad philosophy when you pitch in GABP. Better to miss just off the plate than down the middle. Fangraphs had an article of how Blake Snell uses this same philisophy. He won his second Cy Young award this year despite walking 5 batters per nine innings.

        Also it is convenient to look at the last 2 years when the Reds were throwing out Weaver, Parra, and many other journeymen. How about the job he did his first three years in Cincinnati when he had something to work with. How about the job he did in Milwaukee.

      • Stock

        Doc, I agree with Justin in that teams with DJ as their pitching coach walk more than other teams. It is in the data. I just didn’t pull out the stats because I agreed with Justin on the fact that DJ coached teams walk more than non-DJ coached teams. But in spite of what is preached time and again walks are not always bad. Furthermore, looking at that one stat does not provide a picture. If you are going to look at only one stat why would you not look at ERA?

      • Stock

        DJ does not have the philosophy of walking more hitters. But he does not want his pitchers throwing it down the middle and he would rather have them miss off the plate than down the middle. This same strategy seemed to work for Blake Snell last summer.

    • greenmtred

      And a teacher or coach isn’t going to succeed with every student or be the best teacher for every student. Stoudt is one young person. I don’t necessarily disregard what he said, but he’s really speaking for himself. I wish him luck.

  15. VaRedsFan

    Instead of (or in addition to) spending money on free agents, I would have been just as happy if they threw a lot of money at the Dodger’s pitching coaches to see if they could pry him and his staff away.

    • Doc

      Or maybe Seattle’s pitching coaches. Their starting staff is 80% homegrown and were pretty stout (not to be confused with Stoudt)

    • Stock

      I think the Dodgers have advantages the Reds don’t have so they are not a very good comp. The Dodgers can focus on drafting pitching and get hitters from the international signings and free agents.

      In the first 3 rounds of the 2018 – 2020 drafts the Reds drafted 4 pitchers, Seattle 7 and the Dodgers drafted 8. Furthermore, if you look at the 2021 draft the Dodgers did not draft their first position player until round 16. That is not a typo. Every player they drafted in the first 15 rounds was a pitcher.

  16. William

    Let us take Andrew Abbott and judge Derek Johnson’s pitching philosophy. I am listening.

    • VaRedsFan

      I think you’ll have to judge Abbott after this year. If he improves this year over last, then it would point to DJ having a positive impact on him. If he regresses, then it would follow the trend of many of the other Red’s young pitchers that arrive here.

      • MBS

        I don’t think every organization is right for every player. There are different “philosophies” that work better for different players.

        The question is should you tailor dramatically different “philosophies” for different players, or should you go after players that fit your “philosophy”. I tend to think it’s the latter option.

      • Stock

        I disagree VAredsfan. If DJ were the pitching coach for just the Reds I would agree. But last winter he became the pitching coach for the entire organization. He constructed a plan for each pitcher. Quite probably because of this plan Abbott went from the 14th best prospect on the Reds (Per Doug Gray at RML.com) to one of the best rookie pitchers in the majors. I am not sure what happened between 2022 and 2023 but Abbott’s career took off.

        Interesting how people on here are unwilling to give credit for what DJ did for the bullpen of castoffs, Abbott and Williamson and instead focus on what he didn’t do for pitchers such as Weaver, Parra, Lively, Overton and Brett Kennedy. These are pitchers that neither DJ nor other pitching coaches could make into a regular rotation piece.

        I can not predict health but if healthy I can’t help but feel that Greene, Lodolo and Ashcraft will be very good this year. I am also impressed by what DJ did with Williamson last year and think he may surprise this year.

      • DaveCT

        Abbott has absolutely flourished in the Reds system. He’s gone from college reliever to major league starter in three seasons, including one in school.. As pointed out, this is DJ’s program. X

      • JayTheRed

        Regression can also happen simply by the league catching up with the pitcher. Sophomore slumps are numerous in baseball. The more a pitcher is seen by a player the better understanding the hitter has against them.

    • Justin T

      So ignore the walks and high ERA for the entire team the last few years and point to one HALF season of success for Andrew Abbott? Got it. How about Abbotts second half? Can we use that too?

      • MBS

        So ignore that they traded away Castillo, Gray, and Mahle, then replaced them with rookies who have been constantly injured?

      • greenmtred

        You can if you choose to ignore what Abbot himself said about being completely gassed. There are multiple factors that dictate a player’s performance, so making that performance the sole basis for judging a coach or a philosophy won’t lead to accurate conclusions.

      • JayTheRed

        Yes, you can use that too. Highest number of innings he has pitched in a year. Yup. You try throwing 80 to 100 pitches every 5th day and see if your arm gets a little tired.

  17. Optimist

    Well, perhaps it’s not at the top of the list of non-issues, but it’s close to the top.

  18. TJ

    I tried to find the article where Teejay Antone was praising the Red’s pitching coaches and how their process made him better. Couldn’t find it .

  19. Reds Believer

    Levi is making himself look unprofessional saying things like that. Trades & getting designated for assignment are unfortunately just part of the game. Most just move on & take advantage of a new opportunity.

    • Brian

      Boy, some fans get butt hurt over any Meg comment about the Reds. DJ isn’t the only coach working with pitchers. Better end results doesn’t necessarily mean more hands on coaching. There’s no real reason to believe this guy is a liar. He seems to prefer more one on one with coaches and he received more of that from the Mariners. Teams will be better and worse at things than other teams. Some Reds fans can’t seem to accept that. SMH.

  20. SultanofSwaff

    Again, ON THE WHOLE there hasn’t been appreciable progress imo. 25th, 28th, and 20th in ERA the last 3 years. In the same span the Reds ranked 6th, 11th, and 18th in strikouts per 9 innings while ranking 1st, 3rd, and 1st in number of pitches thrown.

    The numbers would seem to suggest there is a philosophy, just not an effective one.

    • greenmtred

      It suggests to me that there have been many injuries, many pitchers in the early stages of their careers, many innings thrown by substandard replacements, and half of the games being played in an extremely hitter-friendly park.

  21. Reddawgs2012

    Even if this is 100% accurate, it’s pretty amateurish for him to make these comments publicly. He should try taking some responsibility for his own poor performance.

  22. AMDG

    The rest of the league thinks so little of Stoudt that he Reds couldn’t even get any takers on a trade, and had to straight up release him.

    And then he has to pass thru over half the league on waivers before the Mariners picked him up.

    So, it seems misplaced to direct any ill will towards 1 team – especially with a career ERA of 5.00 in the minors. It not like he was dominating, and then suddenly tanked in the Reds’ system.

    • AllTheHype

      Sure seems like he didn’t want to take responsibility for his past performance, and wants someone to blame. We’ll know based on how he performs this year.

    • Justin T

      Yet the Reds traded Castillo for him (and others) while he was rated the 7th best Seattle prospect- so you’re kidding yourself if you think he was a throw in. The Reds failed as much as him. There are people paid well to make those decisions and this was one that didnt work out.

      • Dewey Roberts

        I am amazed that some of you are taking the complaints of a very marginal prospect so seriously. Stoudt will never be a good major league pitcher in my opinion.

      • greenmtred

        The others were probably the story of that trade. Stoudt wasn’t the headliner.

  23. MK

    I think there can be some inference from yesterday’s article here of a new Hunter Greene that the philosophy used in his development has not been as successful as hoped and an adjustment is necessary. The old philosophy of throw it as hard as you can and spin the breaking balls as much as possible wasn’t working. Though it seems like it I don’t know if this is the philosophy for the system or just Hunter. I do think that works better from the bullpen than from starters. To say there is no philosophy is probably wrong to say It is one size fits all is probably an issue. So they philosophy probably didn’t work for Levi. I do blame the Driveline approach for this.

  24. Justin T

    DJ had success with the Reds starters when it was Gray, Bauer and Castillo but its obvious those guys have more than succeeded without him too. Same with Milwaukee, they have kept up the success without him, but he has not matched that success w the Reds.

    Ive never seen a young pitching staff continue to battle so many injuries, to the point that you cannot point to a single one and say he has been somewhat durable. Not sure how you can look at pitching development and say the Reds have done a good job, if so please share it w me. Again, Joe Boyle left the organization and immediately his control issues started improving. I use him as reference because he was just traded away at the 2023 break. DJ nor Bell are going anywhere if they win or lose 100 games this year and I understand that so howling at the moon is pointless. Im going to just plead w Derrick Johnson to please prove me wrong, nothing would make me happier. Lets face it, we are all living on hopes and prayers as there is a lack of successful track record with Bell, Krall or Johnson.

    • Doug Gray

      Immediately? In his three Triple-A starts with Oakland he walked 11 batters and hit another one in 16 innings. Boyle’s had runs of a few starts with the Reds where he didn’t walk a million batters, too. But it’s never really lasted. He had an outstanding three starts in the big leagues to end the season. It will be great if he keeps that going, but I’d pump the brakes before declaring Oakland “fixed” his control issues based on his making 3 AA starts (with good walk numbers), 3 AAA starts (with terrible walk numbers), and 3 MLB starts (with good walk numbers).

      • Justin T

        Fair enough. I also understand you have to give something to get something. I just wonder why it was a young pitcher w upside like Boyle.

      • Doug Gray

        I’d argue it was Joe Boyle because he has walked 7 batters per 9-innings pitched as a professional and that’s actually a huge improvement from what he did in college. The Reds were willing to gamble that he probably wasn’t going to throw enough strikes to turn into a starter long term. The Athletics were willing to gamble that even if he can’t that he can probably be a good enough reliever, but there’s a long shot chance that maybe he could.

        Truth is, the number of guys who walked as many guys in the minors as Boyle has and got to a point where they could be a reliable big league pitcher can be counted on one hand. It’s not that it’s never happened, but that the odds are like 10,000 to 1. And you know what that means…. if someone gives you 10,000 to 1 on anything, you take it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVRlhjd5I18

      • DaveCT

        What Doug said. Touche!

        There may not be a three week period in Boyle’s pitching career, college and pro, where Boyle has not walked 8 guys an inning and had 1 out of 3 running for their lives before striking out.

        I love Boyle. He was Ricky Karcher before Richie Karcher.

    • DaveCT

      Joe Boyle’s history is to have short runs where things are working well, then revert. Joe’s success with the A’s was three games and 15 innings.

      Luis Castillo, on the other hand, grew quite a bit under DJ. Tyler Mahle went from a 7th round pick to someone who gleaned Steer, CES and one of the players traded for Benson. Stock mentions Sonny Gray and Andrew Abbott. But look at Alexis Diaz, a 12th round pick. Look at Brandon Williamson’ success directly under DJ. Look at Lodolo and Ashcraft and Sims and Antone when healthy. Look at Kevin Glausman’s turnaround under DJ that he flipped into great ML success. And look at a Cy Young winner in 2020, under DJ.

      Look at Aguiar, another 12 rounder, and his success in DJ’s program. Phillips, Richardson, Roa. Acuna, Spiers, Petty are all doing well in DJ’s program.

      Conversely, look at Stephenson, Garrett, Romano, Davis, Reed, Lamb, Corcino, etc who failed to develop under Price.

      To be fair and not beat up on you too much, we should evaluate the current group of starters over, say, five years in the ML’s. Not over their first three years’ struggles, and especially given injuries.

  25. redfanorbust

    The Reds pitching numbers since DJ arrived are easy for all to see from coaches,
    management, ownership, players and fans and yet he still has his job and is being paid since 2019. To my knowledge no other pitcher for the Reds has complained about DJ and the pitching philosophy. Why should we put too much stock in what one fringe, possibly disgruntled player has to say. Even if true why would he be kept on as a pitching coach or a MLB team? Would not then the entire Reds hierarchy be to blame? Many factors go into any teams pitching performance. Quality of drafting/scouts, players genetics/mental toughness, training and philosophy prior to getting to the bigs, park where they pitch and just plain luck.

    • MK

      I got from Levi’s comments that it is a one size fits all philosophy rather than an individualized approach for each pitcher.

      Maybe one problem is that Johnson has too much on his plate. Kind of like an NFL Head Coach that calls the offensive plays too.
      The concern I heard about Boddy was he could teach how to increase velocity and spin but knew very little how to pitch to batters. On game situations

  26. redfanorbust

    On a related note I just came across this good news.
    Reds pitching coach Derek Johnson revealed that Greene is adding two pitches to his repertoire: a curveball and a splitter.

    • JohnnySofa

      Please tell me this is a joke. How many years in the organization and he’s just now adding a curve and splitter? If true, then it adds credibility to Stoudt’s comments.

      • Old Big Ed

        Greene has been trying to find an offspeed pitch for several years. It just hasn’t clicked yet.

        Patience is a virtue, especially with young pitchers. Greene’s heading into his age 24 season, and he still has plenty of time. Sandy Koufax through his age 23 season had thrown 516.2 innings, yielding 5.3 BB/9 and 1.4 HR/9, and had a ERA+ of 100. Greene has pitched a total of 437.2 innings (MiLB + MLB), and has an ERA+ in MLB of 96. He has given up 3.6 BB/9 and 1.6 HR/9, with 3.5 SO/9 more than Koufax. Gerritt Cole had a 99 ERA+ in his age 23 season, and then broke out at age 24.

        It isn’t easy to develop a third pitch. Not only does Greene have to find the right feel, grip, etc., but he has to throw it out of the same arm slot that he throws his slider and fastball. Throwing an offspeed pitch in a bullpen session is not the same as throwing one in a game, with the adrenaline pumping and little margin for error.

        Plus, given Greene’s velocity, a straight change can become a hitting-speed fastball if not thrown perfectly, making an average hitter into a good one. His offspeed pitch pretty much has to be a breaking ball. (If Greene develops a true Bugs Bunny change, he will be unhittable.)

        Guys who have 3 plus pitches are rare, and that’s why they retire with $100 million in the bank.

    • TR

      A big question for the coming season is whether additional pitches for Hunter Greene’s will elevate him to the #1 Reds starting pitcher which has been expected for the last few years. If this is not to be, then an eventual conversion of Greene to a closer could be the result.

  27. AMDG

    This sort of reminds me of when Homer Bailey got called up by the Reds, and refused any input. He kept pitching his way – and kept getting lit up.

    I wonder if Stoudt had a similar approach? Didn’t like what he was hearing, and then complained that he wasn’t getting any input?

  28. BK

    Doug, you cover the Red’s minor leagues as closely as anyone. Do other pitchers agree with Stoudt? I’m sure many here would like to know what you think about Red’s pitching development.

    The consensus was that the Reds pulled off a significant coup when they pried him away from Milwaukee. National coverage continues to be highly favorable of him as a pitching coach. Moreover, the Phillies hired his young protege, Caleb Cotham, to lead their pitching staff. That said, you are likely the best person to know how the pitching development is going in the minors.

  29. DW

    I really don’t have a firm opinion on Derek Johnson. But one thing worth noting here is that Williamson, who also came over from Seattle, credited his sudden success last year to buying into Derek Johnson’s philosophy.

    According to Mark Sheldon:

    Williamson credited much of his improvement to working with pitching coach Derek Johnson.

    “He’s been very specific and forward with what is expected and what needs to change,” Williamson said. “It’s how we can get better doing it. The uptick in velocity is directly correlated to working with him. I think throwing more strikes is correlated with him. My body feels great, that was a big component last year when I was struggling. I didn’t feel like myself physically or mentally. Now I feel really free on the mound. I know more of how the game works and how big league hitters think and work. I’m never shy of throwing the ball over the plate right now. I’m attacking guys.”

    https://www.mlb.com/reds/news/brandon-williamson-flourishing-for-reds

    • VaRedsFan

      It would be great if BWill can sustain that uptick that he claims DJ has provided. With greater velocity and spin comes a greater chance of injury. Hopefully, BWill will be strong enough to shoulder (pun intended) the greater load.

      Think of it as a distance runner who takes off in a sprint in the early part of a race. Sure, he’s leading now, but the extra energy (velocity in this case) to see immediate results, comes with a price later in the race.

  30. Melvin

    “”That’s the most exciting thing for me is to get back to that process of them looking at me and saying, ‘all right, this is what we know and what can we do to make you the best version of yourself.””

    Interesting

    • Melvin

      The biggest problem I have with the Reds pitching is walks walks walks.

      • Old Big Ed

        No question that walks were an issue, but …

        1. They had the youngest staff in the majors last year.

        2. Non-arm injuries to Greene, Ashcraft and Lodolo, plus having Luke Weaver in the rotation, required the Reds to use a lot of under-prepared minor leaguers and AAAA relievers.

        The walks will decrease this year. The 2012 division-winning Reds used 17 pitchers, 2 of whom pitched 1 game each. The 2023 Reds used 38 pitchers, plus Maile and Vosler. The combo of Richardson, Sanmartin, Spiers, Phillips, Legumina, Overton and Stoudt threw 98.1 innings and walked 69 guys. Only Phillips figures to get much time with the Reds this season, and only if he continues to develop in the minors.

      • JayTheRed

        Rather have walks than homerun, homerun, and another homerun.

      • Melvin

        “The walks will decrease this year.”

        Okay. I’ll count on it. It’s on YOU. Just kidding. ;)…..a litttle. 😀

      • Melvin

        “Rather have walks than homerun, homerun, and another homerun.”

        Rather have a HR than a walk AND a HR. 😉

  31. Indy Red Man

    I mentioned Stoudt alot last year. He came in early relief in Miami and looked very good, but then disappeared. I’d check on him at AAA and he’d be out or come back get bombed and get hurt again.
    He also turned 26 in December….how long does it take to show some promise? As for our coaching….nobody ever heard of Gibault or whatever his name is and Farmer was never good before. Sims is up and down. I think they patched together a pretty good pen and won 82 games somehow despite bad starting pitching. Not their fault Lodolo can’t stay healthy or get through 5 without 90 pitches. Not their fault HG doesn’t take his profession seriously enough to develop a 3rd pitch. Thats on Krall for drafting him. Sonny has atleast 6 pitches and Hunter can’t develop a 3rd?
    Larry Bird’s Dad tied his right arm behind his back with a string and made him play lefty all day because he said he wanted to be great.
    Do you want to be the best or not? Pitching coaches and organizations can’t teach motivation and heart

    • VaRedsFan

      You can’t teach heart or work ethic, but you can demand it, and hold people accountable to such standards. That’s coaching.
      We don’t know what’s said behind closed doors so it’s pure conjecture on our part. But what we do know is what we see, and when the same mental errors keep happening, then we can ascertain that nothing’s being done to address it. That’s coaching.

      Some things that come to mind last year were outfielder’s throwing to the wrong base…missing the cutoff man and such. Once isn’t good, but then it happened about 5 times in a 3 week stretch. That’s coaching.

      Fraley’s baserunning mistakes kept happening over and over and over. Not the type of errors that could be attributed to just being aggressive running the bases either. Just stupid boneheaded plays. That’s coaching.

      Again…we don’t know if anything was said to them or not. Maybe it was. There didn’t seem to be any consequences.

      If Bryce Harper can be benched for not running out a grounder, then anybody can.

      Reports are that the players like Bell. Who wouldn’t like a leader that continues let poor decision making go unpunished. Maybe that’s how managers are forced to handle today’s athletes. I believe both things can be true at the same time. Fully support your players, while demanding respect and dishing out discipline when needed.

      • greenmtred

        Who wouldn’t like that sort of manager? Probably players who have competitive instincts and want to win. I suspect that description applies to almost all of the Reds.

      • Justin T

        It was obvious when you seen EDC run the Reds out of an inning, walk back to the dugout and the manager never made eye contact. It happened twice late in the summer. He finished that game and was back in the lineup hitting leadoff the next day. For whatever you feel about David Bell, he def isnt a disciplinarian. Watching the team celebrate homers in the middle of losing a game in the middle of a losing streak is something you dont see much of with winning teams w winning managers. Thats why having a guy like India back is critical.

  32. Chris

    Sounds like Stoudt is a victim of the everyone gets a trophy mentality. The guy’s a grown man, an upper level athlete, yet seems he still needs to be coddled. Can you imagine a young Nolan Ryan saying that about the Mets after having been dealt?

  33. RedBB

    Lack of accountability is what’s wrong with this world. Good riddance Levi……

  34. Melvin

    As a side note I found what I thought to be an interesting quote form David Bell today.

    “While an all-lefty outfield is “an easy thing to look at,” manager David Bell said, other factors will dictate moves.

    “It becomes a matter of, ‘Do guys need a day off? Do we have other players that need to be playing? Do we have other players that have proven [themselves] and excelled?’ It’s the balance of winning that day versus the long-term development,” Bell said. “I wouldn’t say [an all left-handed outfield] wouldn’t happen.”

      • Melvin

        I’d be happy if he concentrated more on “winning that day”. 😉

    • wkuchad

      I think the biggest difference in the outfield this year will be Steer. He will ‘likely’ get quite a few more starts in in the outfield in 2024, which means less times we have three starting lefties in the outfield.

      However, I expect all three lefties to get a lot of playing time, with Friedl easily getting the most (assuming he minimizes trips to the IL).

      • Old Big Ed

        I hope that they keep Steer mainly in left field, just to get the repetitions there. They could put him in RF as needed in a particular game, but in the long run, Steer is not a right fielder. Benson to me looks a lot more comfortable in RF, and that is true to a lesser extent with Fraley.

        Actually, I think the Reds’ biggest redundancy is not at 3B/1B/LF, but instead in RF, where both Benson and Fraley are LH-hitting right fielders who need to be platooned. If there is anybody traded this spring, I think it will be Fraley … maybe as a part of a Dylan Cease deal???

      • Melvin

        “Actually, I think the Reds’ biggest redundancy is not at 3B/1B/LF, but instead in RF, where both Benson and Fraley are LH-hitting right fielders who need to be platooned”

        Yeah. Assuming Friedl and Steer play most every day which they should. Man this is going to be a FUN year for David Bell. He’ll be mixing and matching players at different positions more than ever before. 😀

  35. DaveCT

    What I heard from the Green article was the basic philosophy of self directed learning for pitchers, where they are encouraged to chart their own course, then given tons of support in making that happen.

    This requires pitchers to invest in and assume personal responsibility for their own development. To me, that’s the philosophy part of it all.

    The other stuff, “designing pitches” instruction on mechanics, instruction on velocity and spin rates, work load management, training are all the practices that follow philosophy.

    MYbe Levi just don’t get it?

  36. JohnnySofa

    This is entertaining. Everyone attacks Stoudt while conveniently ignoring that the Reds’ pitching overall has been flat-out bad the past three seasons. When a team leads the league in walks (in 2021), an excuse or two might be plausible. To do it a second consecutive season (in 2022), you better question why it hasn’t gotten better. To be bottom-four in year three (2023) is a telltale sign something other than Levi Stoudt is wrong. Walks, of all things, should be fixable. But I know, it’s much more comfortable to use Stoudt’s stats as a shield for the hot mess Johnson has yet to clean up.

    • greenmtred

      Scroll back up, Johnnysofa, and read Stock’s thoughtful discussion of the walks.

      • VaRedsFan

        While part of Stock’s opinion is true, a lot of it doesn’t hold water. It’s ok to walk the other team’s best player in situations that warrant it. But Red’s pitchers were walking the .200 hitter, then have to face the better hitters with men on base. You can’t be a team near the worst in walks allowed AND allow the most HR’s.

        9 of the 11 teams that issued the fewest walks made the playoffs last year.

        Please don’t start making the case that issuing walks and HR’s is a good thing.

      • greenmtred

        I’m pretty sure that I remember from years ago hearing or reading that Greg Maddox pitched to avoid having hitters swing at pitches in the strike zone. If you groove a strike–even to a .200 hitter–you may be watching it bounce off the outfield fence. These are mostly young pitchers still learning to pitch, and let’s not overlook the many innings pitched for the Reds by guys who didn’t belong in MLB. I think we’re all anxious for baseball to start and this tempest in a tea pot is a diversion.

      • Justin T

        So managing to nearly take the “most base on balls” title for 3 straight years is chalked up to Johnson’s approach? Got it. So many excuses for the Reds staff in these comments its actually funny.

        You have to try hard to lead the league in walks for multiple years, and having runners on base is never a good thing unless you intentionally put them there to try to force an out. How about the high amount of homers too? Is that part of the approach? How about the ERA? High 4.8’s for 2 straight seasons without improvement? Bottom 10 the year before? Its been bad for years now by absolutely any metric you can come up with.

      • greenmtred

        Justin, your comment ignores who was actually pitching for the Reds. Maybe you don’t think that matters? It may turn out that this iteration of Reds’ pitching never gets healthy enough or good enough to live up to what we believe their promise to be, but the data you cite–walks and homers–are very possibly functions of youth and the AAAA pitchers who made many appearances.

  37. Jim Delaney

    I remember there was an article where Lowder and Floyd talked about meeting with Reds minor league pitching coaches and they mentioned they were informed if they were good with how they are pitching then that is good and continue doing what you are doing. Seeing Stoudt say something similar to that and hearing from Joe Boyle that As made a slight change with his delivery does bring up some concerns. Some players may need a lot of direction and others may need little to none. Hopefully Reds will look at Stoudt’s comments to look at what they are currently doing, talk more to there pitchers and see if there are pitchers looking for more guidance but weren’t asking for it due to Reds initial interaction with the player.

    • Old Big Ed

      From reading Johnson’s book, he believes in certain basic mechanics, but doesn’t mind an individual straying from them a bit if the pitcher is comfortable and effective doing what he is doing. He believes that certain mechanical flaws tend to lead to another mechanical flaw, but that with some pitchers the early mechanical “flaw” doesn’t do that, so Johnson doesn’t deem it to be a flaw and doesn’t tinker with it.

      I think it is a variation of “if it’s not broke, don’t fix it.” Lowder is very sound, as most Wake Forest pitchers are, so Johnson and his staff aren’t going to ask Lowder to change much at all. I think Johnson also wants his pitchers to learn to make their own adjustments.

      We shouldn’t expect every coach to click with every player. Basketball players signed with John Wooden and Coach K (not going to try to spell it), and later transferred. A lot of coaching, just like developing an employee, is communicating “you may want to try this,” without having it be heard as “you stink.”

  38. Daniel Kals

    I remember when Roger Clemens went from Boston to Toronto and completely changed his pitching style due to Toronto’s pitching “philosophy.” And then he changed his pitching style again when he was traded to the Yankees, since they had a totally different “philosophy.” He had his number retired in Boston, won a Cy Young in Toronto, and won another Cy Young in New York. Wow, those three teams must have had great philosophies.

    (sarcasm)

  39. Mark Moore

    Off topic alert …

    MLBTR has a piece posted about the “love triangle” of Boras, Bellinger, and Ricketts. The posturing by Boras and Ricketts (but especially Boras) is amusing. The comments trend toward “Bellinger isn’t getting a monster long-term deal anywhere”.

    Poor Stupid Cubs … 😀

  40. Melvin

    Looking at the YARKBARKER site looks like Lowder is getting off to a good start. Not surprised.

  41. JohnnySofa

    As a college pitching coach in the south, let me remind anyone using formulas to justify walks … stop it. That’s like telling a boxer it’s a good idea to get punched in the face over and over. In fact, stop all of these excuses and start demanding more results from your management and stop finding new ways (like blaming Levi Stoudt and Joe Boyle) to justify mediocrity. Cardinals fans are laughing.

    • MBS

      The mediocrity is squarely on ownerships shoulders. They forced another rebuild that sent Castillo, Gray, and Maile away for prospects. Greene, and Lodolo were not ready to come up, and neither came up healthy. Being cheap has many downsides.

  42. Greenfield Red

    MLB com prospects show LS as 23 in Cincy’s system. I am interested where he falls in Seattle’s once they move him.

  43. Tom Reeves

    An outward focused victim will struggle