On Monday night the Rookie of the Year Award was announced for both the American and the National League. Corbin Carroll won the award in the National League. We knew ahead of time that none of the Cincinnati Reds rookies were going to win as the top three vote getters were announced previously and none of them were Reds.
Despite none of the Reds rookies being in the top three, Cincinnati did have three players receive votes. Corbin Carroll received every first place vote that was cast. Matt McLain did nab one second place vote among the 30 voters. George Henry of the Associated Press voted Carroll (1st), McLain (2nd), and Elly De La Cruz (3rd).
For De La Cruz, that was his lone vote from anyone. McLain got two other votes – both for 3rd place (Fangraphs Dan Szymborski and The Athletic’s Keith Law). Not to be left out, Spencer Steer also picked up quite a few votes. In all, he got a 3rd place vote from four writers (Tim Stebbins of MLB.com,Jordan McPherson of the Miami Herald, Abbey Mastracco of the New York Daily News, and Kyle Glaser of Baseball America).
In total there were nine players who received at least one vote. Among that group, Matt McLain finished 5th, Spencer Steer was 6th, and Elly De La Cruz was tied for the 7th and final spot with two others. You can see how all of the voting went down here.
Tonight the Manager of the Year Award will be announced. On Wednesday it will be the Cy Young Award winners that will be named. Thursday will wrap award season up with the Most Valuable Player Award announcement. Much like the Rookie of the Year award, no Cincinnati Reds made the top three. We’ll have to wait and see if any of them garnered votes, though.
If Matt McClain had stayed healthy I think he would have finished a close second to Carroll. Both had nearly the same OPS, but Carroll had 54 steals, which would’ve roughly doubled McClain’s likely total.
No matter, in 2024 McClain begins his run of multiple All-Star seasons!
McLain comes across to me as a player who does everything well. He’ll be an all star.
I concur.
I agree on McLain.
Also, I think Steer wasn’t helped by being used as a jack of all trades on defense. Additionally and ironically the fact he played in 156 games and racked up 665 PAs may have damaged his ROY chances by wearing him down and having enough PAs that teams were able to figure out exploits for his weaknesses.
Note that Corbin Carroll had only 1 fewer game appearance than Steer yet came up with 20 fewer PAs. Also, Carroll played only in the OF but Steer played OF plus every IF position except C. That certainly put more of a mental load on Steer game in and game out.
That reflects the weakness in the Reds development strategy. Arizona didn’t move Carroll around the diamond as Bell did all of the Reds rookies though none as much as Steer. “Utility” is a code name form promoting mediocrity.
No, Steer’s glove isn’t a Reds’ development problem. For starters, they only had him in the minors for 23 games.
Steer doesn’t have near the athleticism of Corbin Carroll, who has played exclusively as an outfielder since turning pro. However, Carolll isn’t yet a particularly good outfielder, registering a -0.7 dWAR in 2023. I think his arm is deemed mediocre.
Steer doesn’t really have a natural position. He played only 2B, SS and 3B in college (Oregon) and MiLB through his age 23 season, and didn’t vary from that until the Reds got him in August 2022. Yes, the Reds have moved him around, but the Twins didn’t have any place to play him, either. They had Edouardo Julien and Royce Lewis for 2B and 3B, and Steer can’t really play SS.
Steer is not now and never was going to be a Gold Glover at any position, but the Reds will live with that if he continues to bring the bat. He fits best in left field, which coincides with the best spot for Jonathan India.
What? Do you really think it is a good development strategy to fail to create versatility just to gain votes for ROY?
While Carroll only played OF, he played all three positions with 53 starts in LF, 34 in CF, and 57 in RF. The D-backs had players who made more starts than Carroll at all three OF positions. He won the ROY award and led his team in bWAR and fWAR (top 10 NL, too)–he was the best player on an outstanding team. In short, he was his team’s utility outfielder with a manager who used a mediocre approach leading his team to the World Series.
@BK, there’s a difference between playing all OF positions and shifting around the diamond and also playing in the OF. Reaching the pinnacle of any profession, sports or otherwise, requires focus, commitment, and specialization. Utility as defined by Bell is not conducive to achieving one’s potential.
@LDS, there’s especially a big difference when the evidence doesn’t support one’s thesis. The best player on the NL Champion D-Backs did not have a consistent starting position.
I would criticize the Reds because Steer was not prepared in the minors or spring training to move around as he did during the season. Developmentally, they did not train him to perform as required. Steer improved defensively as he gained experience. Playing multiple spots did not phase him and helped the team. Many teams do this; few have a player like Steer who can handle the challenge with aplomb.
@BK>>> I agree that Steer acquitted himself very well as the floater. My point was that the physical and mental efforts of learning those positions largely on the fly and extra game preparation for them took away from the time and energy available to him as a rookie he could have spent studying videos of pitchers and working on his offense. Those efforts may have also left him with less energy and focus on the field.
All in all, the season was a truly impressive effort by Steer. However, ROY voters are more focused on the bottom line production, not the effort it took for the guy to deliver it.
@Jim, I agree with your sentiments. I would vote for Steer as the Red’s MVP this year … if I had a vote.
I also believe Carroll won the award running away this year. While shifting around the outfield is easier than what Steer did, each position has its nuance. Carroll’s versatility should not be undervalued in what was a fantastic year for any player, let alone a rookie.
Well-deserved votes for Steer and McLain. Good to see EDLC get something in that mix. And to get props from Keith Law is kind of a surprise to me. Seems he rarely has much “love” for our Reds.
MLBTR is posting more “India will move” stuff. I suppose we’ll know in about a month or so. Regardless, it’s good to see the Hot Stove beginning to warm up.
Now to the Manager of the Year awards … still sitting at #100 out of 30 in my book 😀
“Now to the Manager of the Year awards … still sitting at #100 out of 30 in my book ?”
😀 If he does get some votes maybe Big Bob will actually show some brains by trying to sell high. Maybe some other team will take over his contract……….wishful thinking I know.
Somebody voted Bell #1. He also got 2 votes for both 2nd and 3rd for 13 points and 6th place. It is probably worth noting the spread from 5th place back to Bell was 28 points. 🙂
Per the results table in the link below, David Ross, deposed Cubs Mgr came 7th with the lowest vote total of 3 points.
https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/2023-manager-of-the-year-marlins-skip-schumaker-in-national-league-orioles-brandon-hyde-in-american-league/
Jim – Big Bob is saying, “Let’s extend him another three years”. 😉
I absolutely would package India with some prospects and either Williamson or Phillips if it could land a young MLB starting pitcher in return.
Also, I expect the Reds to move Barrero too. Curious to see what they can get for him.
Ummm, Williamson and Phillips are, respectively, “a young MLB starting pitcher”.
I don’t see the point in trading a promising young starter to get another promising young starter while depleting position player depth.
I would be surprised if Williamson was moved. I could see Phillips as a trade piece. It’d be difficult to see him out the door considering the potential, but if it were India+Phillips+lottery ticket bringing back Dylan Cease, I suppose I’d get over it.
Something to consider:
-would we be willing to offer Ohtani a one year deal strictly as our everyday DH? He won’t be able to pitch until 2025, at which time he could get back on the market as both a hitter/pitcher? Imagine not only the numbers he would produce playing 81 at GABP but also the numbers for those hitting in front of him in the lineup?!?? What would that take, money-wise?
TJ
Marte
McLain
Ohtani
CES
Steer
Benson
Elly
Stephenson
560 million?
60 million?
I completely understand 60 easy but only as a pitcher and hitter, not only as a hitter. 30? 40?
If you were Ohtani, why would you pass up a contract likely to exceed $400M for a 1-year deal? His value is extremely high now–he’ll cash in.
Yep.
LeBron James style (granted his were 2 year contracts each instance). I concur though, why would he do that…just some hopeful offseason banter amongst the Cincinnati faithful.
The NBA ‘s CBA limits the length (and value) of contracts. Short-term sometimes makes sense in the NBA. It does not in MLB, especially if you happen to be the most coveted free agent in the offseason.
This is the sign and trade deal they should work for one year of Soto. The problem is how much the Padres demand, but if their financial issues are a priority, it may not take as much as many think. They seem more inclined to deal now, rather than at the mid-season deadline or simply play it out for a QO.
Just breaking within the last couple of hours (Tuesday, 11/14), the passing of Padres owner/ CEO Peter Seidler has been announced.
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/38897306/peter-seidler-padres-chairman-owner-dies-63
It had been previously announced that Seidler had undergone a medical procedure during the summer to explain his absence from public visibility. This may have impacted the Padres’ posture leading into the offseason; and, his passing could have a further impact on how they proceed now.
More than Big Bob is willing to spend that’s for sure. 🙂
Not sure why we are discussing Ohtani. He is not coming to Cincinnati. It’s not happening.
Besides he may not be quite as good after his injury.
He wants to stay on the coast, closer to home and he can get that kind of money there.
Last time there was three Reds was just a couple years ago. India, Stephenson and Guttierez.
I didn’t look far enough, but I wonder if it’s permitted for a player to receive ROY votes in 2 seasons? Marte didn’t get a vote, which is not surprising considering his playing totals, but still would have been interesting. If the voters had 5 or more slots to rank I suspect he would have gotten a few votes.
We have some great players in their early twenties much like the infield of the Dodgers in the 70s with Garvey and company. Hopefully they stay healthy and can be signed so they can stay together. Believe that Steer will settle in LF next season and not be bounced around so much. I think India is a hard nosed team player but he is also a below average 2nd basemen and a 250ish hitter. Because he is still young with 3 years in the bigs and there seems to be a dearth of 2nd basemen, he is a wanted man. For that reason, I advocate trading him with either minor league talent and/or (take your pick Fraley, Senzel, Barrero) for a starting pitcher. Could we get Cease from the White Sox? – I don’t know but I would be having discussions with them. Under no circumstances dangle Steer or any of the infielders. We have many young potential starting pictures but no proven ones and I don’t think we can count on Greene/Lodolo to pitch an entire season. Hope they prove me wrong!
We have some great players in their early twenties much like the infield of the Dodgers in the 70s with Garvey and company. Hopefully they stay healthy I and can be signed so they can stay together. Believe that Steer will settle in LF next season and not be bounced around so much. I think India is a hard nosed team player but he is also a below average 2nd basemen and a 250ish hitter. Because he is still young with 3 years in the bigs and there seems to be a dearth of 2nd basemen, he is a wanted man. For that reason, I advocate trading him with either minor league talent and/or (take your pick Fraley, Senzel, Barrero) for a starting pitcher. Could we get Cease from the White Sox? – I don’t know but I would be having discussions with them. Under no circumstances dangle Steer or any of the infielders. We have many young potential starting pictures but no proven ones and I don’t think we can count on Greene/Lodolo to pitch an entire season. Hope they prove me wrong!
Abbott really should have gotten votes over Elly. 2.7 bWAR vs 0.8bWAR is a no brainer no matter how accurate you consider BR.
It’s becoming clearer as friday approaches that Nick Senzel has zero value in the trade market. He will be non tendered and will go down as one of the most disappointing high draft picks in a generation
No one saw that in 2018
Senzel’s 2016 draft class was officially Very Cruddy. The top two picks were Mickey Moniak and Senzel. The only 3 1st-rounders who have 5+ bWAR are new free agent Cal Quantrill, Braxton Garrett and Gavin Lux. Lux has a chance to be a good player, and there are others in later rounds who’ve done fine, but there wasn’t much at the top of the board that year.
By contrast, the 2015 class was officially Wicked Loaded. The top two picks were Dansby Swanson (19.5 bWAR) and Alex Bregman (35.4), and the first round included Kyle Tucker (18.3), Andrew Benintendi (16.1), Ian Happ (14.0), and Walker Buehler (13.7). The Reds took Tyler Stephenson that year.
2017 is still unclassified. The top two WAR producers are Drew Rasmussen (5.9) and Tanner Houck (5.8), picked toward the end of the first round. The top 3 picks were Royce Lewis, Hunter Greene and MacKenzie Gore, each of whom was signed out of high school and have shown signs of promise.
The Reds got unlucky to have a high pick in a bad year. Picking Senzel wasn’t necessarily a bad decision when it was made.
Kyle wright at #5 for the Braves in 2017 was the best college pitcher and many felt worthy of a #1 pick and a fast track to MLB. He now is having shoulder surgery and missing all of 2024. He blossomed early to help the Braves 2021 WS year, but has had some terrible health last few years. You never know.
This just popped up in my FB feed. The complete list of 21 year olds in history to hit for the cycle and steal a base in an MLB game.
Mike Trout
Elly de la Cruz
That’s it.