Defensive miscues and more walks than strikeouts from the pitching staff wound up costing the Cincinnati Reds plenty in Arizona on Friday night as they dropped the second game in a row to the Diamondbacks, 10-8.
| Final | R | H | E |
|---|---|---|---|
| Cincinnati Reds (67-63) |
8 | 8 | 1 |
| Arizona Diamondbacks (68-61) |
10 | 10 | 0 |
| W: Pfaadt (1-6) L: Greene (2-6) SV: Ginkel (4) | |||
| Statcast | Box Score | Game Thread | |||
Both teams went down in order in the 1st inning. That wasn’t the case in the 2nd inning when Nick Martini decided to shake things up and hit a solo homer to make it 1-0 for the Reds. It was his first big league home run since 2019. Christian Encarnacion-Strand would follow with a double and Will Benson would walk, but both would be stranded there.
In the bottom of the 3rd the Diamondbacks were threatening after two walks and a wild pitch put two men in scoring position with two outs. Tommy Pham hit a chopper to third and Noelvi Marte bare handed it and fired to first to record the final out on a bang-bang play at the bag.
Arizona would finally come through in the 4th. Lourdes Gurriel Jr. and Alek Thomas had back-to-back doubles to bring in a run. A walk to Gabriel Moreno followed, and then Jace Peterson tripled into the right field corner to plate two runs and put the Diamondbacks up 3-1. Corbin Carroll and Ketel Marte would both walk on four pitches with two outs to load the bases. That brought Tommy Pham to the plate with a chance to bury his former team and he came through with a 2-run single to make it 5-1.
That was it for Greene as Arizona batted around against him in the inning. The Reds called on Derek Law to take over with two on and two out. After a 9-pitch at-bat, Law walked the first batter he saw to load the bases, but he’d pick up a strikeout to end the inning and strand three runners.
When the bottom of the 5th began the Reds turned the game over to Brett Kennedy. He made quick work of Arizona, retiring the side on just nine pitches. In the top of the 6th Matt McLain picked up a 1-out single to become the first Cincinnati baserunner since the second inning and that would mark the end of the day for Brandon Pfaadt as Arizona went to the bullpen to bring in Bryce Jarvis to face Elly De La Cruz and he took the first pitch and bunted it for a single. Spencer Steer lined out, but Nick Martini picked him up and hit a 3-run homer to bring the Reds within a run at 5-4 and give him two home runs on the day.
Brett Kennedy ran into trouble of his own doing in the bottom of the 6th after walking the first two batters he saw and then hitting Tommy Pham with one out to load the bases. Christian Walker then hit a pop up to shallow left and Elly De La Cruz camped under it and caught it, but Spencer Steer ran into him and knocked him over, which allowed Geraldo Perdomo to tag up and score, extending Arizona’s lead to 6-4. De La Cruz jumped up and threw home, and the throw got by Luke Maile, allowing the other two runners to also advance a base on the play. Kennedy would strike out Lourdes Gurriel Jr. to end the inning.
Back-to-back singles from Arizona led off the bottom of the 7th. A sacrifice bunt moved both runners over before Geraldo Perdomo hit a hard grounder towards first that bounced off of the glove of a diving Christian Encarnacion-Strand and went to Matt McLain, but he had no play and had to eat the ball as a run scored and Perdomo picked up a single. Ketel Marte then hit a sacrifice fly to make it 8-4. Then one of the wildest plays you’ll see happened…. Tommy Pham appeared to hit a 3-run homer just beyond the glove of a leaping Spencer Steer. But upon replay a kid clearly pulled the ball from Steer’s glove (with his glove), the play was challenged by the umpiring crew, and the call came back as fan interference to end the inning.
Christian Walker was hit by a pitch to begin the 8th inning. A force out swapped him with Alek Thomas, who came around to score on a 2-out triple by Gabriel Moreno that made it 9-4. Jace Peterson then followed up with a triple of his own when Will Benson misplayed a liner in front of him and Arizona tacked on another run.
The Reds loaded the bases with no outs on a single, walk, and a hit by pitch in the top of the 9th inning. After Noelvi Marte struck out, Will Benson hit a grand slam to make it a 10-8 ballgame. That led to a pitching change, with Arizona bringing in Kevin Ginkel to close out the game and he did just that with back-to-back strikeouts.
Key Moment of the Game
The 4th inning that saw Arizona score five runs against Hunter Greene and never look back.
Notes worth noting
Nick Martini entered the day with two big league home runs in 115 games. He doubled that number with two long balls on Friday night – his first two hits of the season (he had 7 plate appearances entering the game).
The grand slam for Will Benson was the first of his big league career.
Up Next for the Cincinnati Reds
Cincinnati Reds vs Arizona Diamondbacks
Friday August 25th, 8:10pm ET
TBA vs Zach Davies (1-5, 7.38 ERA)
According to the broadcast this game was the sixth time Reds pitchers have walked nine batters this year. AZ had 10 hits to go along with them. We’re very fortunate they only scored 10 runs. We walked twice by the way.
Martini goes yard twice, and Benson hits a grand slam… That should have been enough offense, but not in a game like this. Our playoff hopes are looking bleaker…
This is the growing pains of a young team that has no veteran starting pitching. I can’t get over the huge mistake it was by the team to not get at least one veteran starter. I wouldn’t honestly care if that start had like a 4.50 ERA and or was an average starting pitcher.
So far Greene has just not looked anything like he did earlier in the season. Beginning to feel like he was rushed back.
To play such bad D and basically walk the starting nine once, I’d say we were lucky to be close. Leaving Kennedy in so long was a bone-headed decision by Bell. Put Martini in Left and Steer at 1st, CES at dh. Gotta be better to have any chance at this point. Greene really looks lost. Gooo Reds!
https://youtu.be/H8zg7uQX6No?si=FN947-CCpMSjmd9x
This about sums it up. Nice effort by the offense though…
Actually I should say nice effort by Benson and Martini…no one else really showed up today. Can’t wait for football season!!!
With five plus weeks of regular season baseball to go, the wild card is not over yet. I’ve always loved college football but the disappearance of the PAC 10 and the expansion of the Big12 (with UC) and the Big Ten will take a while to figure out.
“We have all we need”
Again, please site your source. It must be in print or audio if it is a direct quote as you have claimed at least twice this week.
lethal combination-Greene and Kennedy.
Was not able to see game, how did Greene look? Obviously results have not been there, but are velocity/movement ok, or does he look like he is still hurting? And has he been throwing the mystery pitch Doug identified? Really hoping he has not been rushed back.
Fellow older Steeler fan here too.
He wasn’t in game shape carrying a little extra weight. Looked like he still should be throwing rehab innings at Louisville. Control wasn’t good. Velo was good, through a few good sliders. Threw a lot of pitches in the 3rd & looked gassed as he got in trouble in the 4th inning and his pitch count was around 90 when he got pulled giving up 5 runs total.
In my opinion I thought he looked really good. When the misplays happened he seemed to get pissed off and lose focus. He went to numerous full counts and couldn’t finish anyone off. When he walked off the mound he had such an angry look. I would say the mental part of his game caused him to lose focus and physical control
Really need to turn this around and soon.
I dont get the constant narrative that Krall didnt do enough at the deadline. This team wasnt/isnt 1 or 2 players away. This team needed (2) elite SP and the Padres werent trading Blake Snell and the White Sox werent trading Dylan Cease. They got Sam Moll, who has been good, yet some bemoan losing Joe Boyle. They needed 2 good hitters and Cubs werent trading Cody Bellinger and Getting Jeimer candelario from the Nats sorta interferes with the growth curve of the young guys at corner infield.
Reds werent Michael Lorenzen away from making the playoffs.
Hunter Greene has been injured and disappointing.
Nick Lodolo has had a lost year and injured
Jon India injured and bad since mid June
Tyler Stephenson worst year of his career
Joey Votto? Didnt play until mid June, Hit some home runs, but then back to the IL by mid August.
Bullpen gassed, Abbott on fumes.
Tejay Antone, Vlad Gutierrez, and Tony Santillan all didnt make it back from injuries
Going back to Opening Day, In what universe does all those things happen with the Reds core players and Nick Krall makes a bunch of trades at the deadline to win the NL central?
Agree.
And Fraley-reds best lefty hitter- out injured
Agree and second all of that.
Agree with all Old School but the Moll for Boyle. If Moll was the only move they were going to make then don’t make it. Getting one relief pitcher wasn’t going to make a difference.
That trade wasn’t a blockbuster, but the Reds’ pen had been worked hard and had only one lefty. The trade somewhat addressed both issues.
He has been good, and is NOT a rental.
Still a good trade.
Yet, on top of that they are 5 wins ahead of last year’s season total with roughly 30 games left to play. Anyone who thought at the beginning of the season that this team was going from worst to first was in dreamland. Considering that they have started 6-7 rookies most nights, and that their pitching staff has been anchored by two rookies, a second year pitcher not named Greene or Lodolo, and a bunch of ‘whose that’ rather than ‘who’s who’ fourth and fifth starters, objective observers will find it remarkable how far this team has come in a single season.
On the other side of the fence. In late July, we were in first place and 10 games over 500. Everybody, including Krall, said we were in search of starting pitching help toward helping us through the last 2 months. There was a whole universe of fans that thought we needed 1-2 starting pitchers and a couple relief arms to maintain our fight for first place. We had Lively, Weaver, an overworked bullpen, and 2 guys nearing their career inning levels. Krall’s response was he wasn’t worried about innings limitations and his 2 studs were coming back in August. A few of us said this was totally overplaying his hand on Greene and Lodolo’s expectations and contributions coming off the IL, and shouldn’t we replace Weaver and help the bullpen sooner rather than later. Well, since we have started Weaver, Richardson, Kennedy, and Greene about 6 games!!! with predictable low effectiveness. These guys are like #7 starters and a couple #3/#4 like starters like Montgomery, Flaherty, Lynn, and Lorenzen would have easily had 3-4-5 more wins than our continued rollout of #7 starters. We would still be 8-9 games over 500 awaiting the return of our 2 superstars. That is my contention on our pitching need on August 1 and August 26. The injuries and extended injuries to Fraley, Votto, Newman, and India were not foreseeable and certainly have hampered our situation now and going forward, and shouldn’t be hung on Krall. The decline of Friedl, ELDC, Stephenson, and others in the last month is not so clear. I certainly wouldn’t have predicted such but could a GM see this coming? So bottom line from this side of the fence, we have dropped 4-5 additional games (and maybe more going forward) because of Krall’s choice not to add multiple pitching pieces on August 1. Arizona and Miami did.
Well said Rob, unfortunately you are wasting your breath with the know it all crowd.
+10000 Rob
For the most part, pitching has not been the problem in August
Pitching in August>>> There have been 5 games in which a multi run opposition HR in the 7th inning or later wiped out a Reds lead and led to a subsequent Reds loss. The Reds are 5 behind the Brewers and 2 behind the last wildcard. If even 3 of those games had gone the Reds way, they would be in a wildcard spot and breathing down the Brewers necks.
The bullpen is short at least one arm; and, the guys they have are about all used up by overuse because they are short 1 or 2 starters plus the starters they have do not go deep enough into games.
Excellent points OS
This really should be pinned to the top. Agee 1000%. But this post doesn’t fit the narrative and agenda of most on this site that Bell is the problem and Krall threw the season away at the deadline. Thanks for an honest and true evaluation. It’s been an awesome year again regardless if they make the playoffs or not.
It’s called making an attempt to make your team’s chances better. Were they going win the World Series? Doubtful, but at least get someone. Lorenzen was not the right choice. They knew what they would get from him.
As a self proclaimed CES guy, I would like to see Steer at 1b and an actual left handed hitter in LF tonight. Siani or Martini. I would prefer Martini DH and Siani play left or center. Davies is junk baller who will not throw CES a strike much less a fastball.
CES has cost us several outs the last few games due to inexperience at first. Going at getting balls that the second basemens, stretching with the wrong foot, and poor feeds to pitchers covering first. I think he will be a decent defensive first baseman with some work, but for now we need somewho who is solid there and doesn’t make our over worked pitching staff throw additional pitches.
If the Reds limp into the playoffs, I think the team’s brass will be satisfied. I’m tired of the Greene show. Being that he’s already had TJ surgery, I think I’d trade him in the off-season, maybe for Detmers–their stats are similar.
Greene needs to develop a 3rd or maybe even 4th pitch that he can throw with some consistency. This is the only way the kid is going to succeed as a starting pitcher.
The Reds are still in it. You don’t pick the years you will contend. When it happens you need to maximize your chances. I would love to see the Reds consider putting Greene in the Bullpen for the rest of the year. I know my opinion on Greene’s future as a starter has not been popular on this site, and obviously the Reds have tried very hard to make Greene a starter, I just don’t see it. I do however, think that he could be a top 10 percent backend of the bullpen guy. He looked good the first two innings yesterday, he just doesn’t have the pitch repertoire or the accuracy with his fastball right now to be a consistent starter. So why try to fit a square peg into a round hole. Put him in the bullpen. Take some pressure off him and the over-used BP, and give the team the best chance to make the playoffs. He can still work on his change-up, split-finger, and different speeds on his slider, during bullpen sessions. Just let him come in and uncork it at 102. Drop the devastating slider on people for one or two innings, and actually help the team win. Seems like a no brainer to me, but what do I know. There’s always the offseason and next year to try to develop him into a quality starter. The myth that he is a super young, inexperienced pitcher, just isn’t true. He’s physically a fully developed young pitcher that has been in the organization since he was 19, but still hasn’t developed that 3rd pitch that he truly trusts when the pressure is on. Maybe he never does. That’s ok in the bullpen. It’s not okay as a starter.
Almost the same thoughts at the same time))
Great minds think alike. Lol!
Idk I have been on the fence on this issue. Greene has had plenty of inconsistencies but he has nearly had 2 no hitters as well. The team has to deal with the growing pains. Idk but I am guessing the career innings of Lodolo and Greene are similar and no one is advocating Lodolo to the bullpen. Greene could make an outstanding closer ala Devin Williams. Maybe that’s his future. If I am Krall/Bell, I wouldn’t ask him to move right now. Maybe bring it up in a conversation about his career arc and see what his thoughts are not forcing it upon him. That alone wouldn’t propel the Reds to a playoff spot. They need Fraley back, CES to turn into a star, Abbott to be their ace, etc. it’s a lot to ask.
Interesting idea, and it wouldn’t necessarily mean he couldn’t return to starting at some point.
+1000
Greene missed 2 months. Right now he is at that point of rebuilding himself he would be at near the end of spring training.
If they had other starters, it would make sense to me to use him out of the pen for the remainder of this year or even to option him to AAA to get several more starts to hone into MLB game shape. But the sad truth is they do not have other starters.
I am typing this at 11AM Saturday morning. Overnight the Reds posted Fernando Cruz as their probable starter for today. The depth of disaster with the Reds starting pitchers is so deep that arguably their most consistent reliever over the last several weeks is pulled from the pen to start in what will become a bullpen day that even further distresses their pen.
I’m not quite ready to give up on Greene as a Starting Pitcher but this winter he has to develop a new pitch that can be effective.
Greene is young and has obvious talent, but how long can they wait on him to put in the work to add new pitches? To grow up? Once he drops to a Jordan Hicks level reliever then you’re losing value in a trade.
Maybe he’s throwing 102 out of the pen high leverage and they add a veteran. I really think Lowder will make it. Who knows with Lodolo?
I disagree with some on this year. Yeah they’re young and nobody expected it, but they’re this close and these other teams aren’t that good. Arizona isn’t that good and SF is worse. If we added Lynn & Graveman we’d have 3-4 more wins atleast and just making the playoffs is a positive. These young guys have to learn by doing…and failing. Step by step and playoff experience is big
A lot of folks didn’t want Lynn and his 6 ERA. Guessing Krall was one of them.
I didn’t either to be honest
A lot of people hadn’t already depleted their organizational depth of starting pitchers and weren’t in need of an arm or two just to finish out the required innings to finish the season aside from any hope of competing for the playoffs.
Me too. I saw Lynn as only a half step up from Weaver. Cheap bottom feeding. But he has been great for the Dodgers. My choices would have been 1) Scherzer or 2) Flaherty and Montgomery. Plus a top bullpen piece. Yeah, good bye Arroyo, Richardson, and Hopkins. I am in fist place and trying to ensure I stay ahead of the Brewers.
Lynn would not have helped us. I was glad we didn’t trade for him. Same with Lorenzen.
Chapman wasn’t an effective starter either. I think he worked out ok in the bullpen. Some guys are starters, most are not. It’s ok.
Hunter Greene looks terrible since his return….uggh. That could be season over. Nice move Krall!!!!!
I think Hunter Greene has come back too soon before a complete recovery from injury. Of course, he wants to help his teammates get to the playoffs. Shut him down, get a complete recovery and then work on a breaking pitch or two until next spring.
+1000 But it is hard to shut Grene down when the organization’s starting pitching depth is depleted and the GM couldn’t pick which one of 5 or 6 infield prospects to part with for a starting pitcher. BTW, this doesn’t bode well for getting those guys repurposed or traded to implement the current core of EDLC, McLain, Steer, Marte and CES not to mention guys about to enter early arbitration status.
Reds are averaging about 7,000 more per game home attendance than their 2022 average. Suggests there are a lot of people who don’t agree with the constant critics who night after night have little to nothing good to say on RLN about this team and its progress to date. I opined months ago my belief that fans would rather see younger hungry players who hustled over experienced players with fat guarantees, even if it meant a few more losses at the outset.
As it turns out, the paying fans are getting the best of both worlds. They are getting a team full of young, hungry, hustling ball players, and they are getting more wins. And at least 7,000 more per game are showing up at the park. Apparently they don’t read RLN day after day to see how bad DB is, how NK didn’t make a bunch of worthless or potentially long term damaging moves, how every batter could not make a perfect decision every pitch in every game, and on and on and on.
I was fine with the no big moves at the trade deadline. I do not think putting large chunks of payroll, or mortgaging high level prospects, into starting pitching is a good return on your investment for small market teams. It’s my belief that starting pitchers just don’t stay healthy anymore, so invest in quality college pitchers and give them early opportunities and don’t overly baby them. Let them pitch while they are young and healthy.
I have really enjoyed watching the young players play this year. My biggest complaint has been that after watching this team last year, and watching them the first two weeks of the year, I think it was pretty obvious that the best move for the Reds was to start the future asap. I think they waited way too long to go all in on the youth movement, especially with Abbott and Williamson. It was pretty obvious to me, just from watching spring training and games, that the Reds best players were their young athletic players. Of course these young players are going to go through growing pains, but at least you find out what you’ve got. If a player doesn’t work out in the Bigs, you move them back down and let them work on their weaknesses. If they can’t adjust, they are never going to be great big leaguers anyway. I have never bought into the “ruining” players with early opportunities.
Amen. Hated seeing McLain, Elly, CES, and Abbott waste time in AAA when it was obvious they needed to be here. Give CES most of Newman’s at bats and he probably has 15-20 homers right now.
A lot of people here at RLN see the squandered potential of a job half done then abandoned in mid season. Wins mean nothing unless their total at the end of the season earns a ticket to the playoffs.
My guess is those 7K+ people bought in on the potential and expected the job to be finished at the deadline. Instead, they got loud talk, followup handwringing, and ultimately the same old stuff as they have been served the last decade.
I am sure there are a ton of fans that don’t even know this site exists. Note- I do try to spread the word when I meet people that it’s a great source for Reds information.
I know the Reds are not quite to 70 wins yet but a lot of people estimated we would not get that many wins this year. I am still hopeful of a .500 season. Or maybe a few games over .500. I didn’t think they would win 65 games this year. I will admit they have been a lot better than I expected.
Nobody has to read RLN to know how bad Bell is. Fans know. Bell is sub par as a mlb manager, and that’s been true for years.
The Reds are better this year due to one thing—-talent.
The talent will get better with experience. A better choice in manager could speed up the learning curve and get the best out of the talent. But Bell hasn’t had this kind of talent to work with ever. And the Reds improvement this year is not because Bell got smarter or better.
2023 Reds are talented, but inexperienced, and they lack proper management. I don’t see them making the playoffs but I do like the talent and see a better future ahead.
They sure are a lot more interesting to follow than any other year in castellini’s tenure.
Krall has done a great job in turning this roster over and winning games at the same time.Hard to do and even harder to maintain the winning.Have to agree with Old school about being more then one player or two or even more away from winning the division but can also see those who make the point that you have to go for it when you have a chance.Hope the Reds can sneak in and win a game in the playoffs because they need that experience.With the expanded playoffs everybody is pretty much in the chase until they aren’t.Maybe its because I want to see it but I believe Krall is looking to build a team that not only can make the playoffs but go far and win a title.It may all come down to what ownership is willing to do in the off season to fill in the holes and there are several holes to fill.Time will tell as it always does so we ride it out.I like what Krall has done and trust that if he is given the bucks he needs he will produce a winner.
I am a fan of Krall. I think overall he has done a good job, but at the same time I think they could have done things much better this year and if they come up a game or two short, it’s on Krall that they did not bring up Abbott and Williamson earlier, that they continued to go with three catchers for so long, that they rolled Weaver out there week after week and depleted their pen, that they have not made better decisions with Greene’s usage. Just my opinion. Posting on here is my therapy. I enjoy others thoughts even when I don’t agree with them. Questioning professionals who make lot’s of money off of a spectator sport is one of the great American past times. It’s a birth rite that we pay for with our time and money.
Williamson had a WHIP of 1.88 and an ERA of 6.62 when he was recalled from Louisville. He’s shown dramatic improvement in the majors, but it’s really hard to understand why you would think the Reds should have recalled him sooner.
And CES and EDLC had, as I recall, slow starts at AAA before they started to mash. It seems reasonable to wait until a young player demonstrates that he can sustain his performance before bringing him up. They still have plenty to learn, for that matter, but MLB is probably the place for them to learn it. There’s also context: the Reds and everyone else viewed this season as preparation for being competitive and the development of young players was and is of major importance. A team may not be able to entirely control when it contends, but it certainly can strongly influence it. Is it really unreasonable to view a team so dependent upon rookies as being a very long shot and this season’s primary goal as development?
Greene looks like someone who will ultimately end like Tejay Antone or Walker Buhler. Some thing is wrong with his arm. His velo has dropped and he is much wilder than he was even when he was throwing 103. He will end up on IL soon.
I think we need to be realistic at this point. We simply do not have the pitching or hitting to make a play off run. These young players simply do not make consistent contact and our best home run hitters are still under 20 and will likely not exceed that . Hits are at a premium, pitching is limited to 2-3 reliable arms, and the schedule is not favorable.
Hopefully Kroll can make some off season trades and lure in experienced free agent pitching and we will make another run next season. BTW I think the team must move past Votto , Senzel, and India and stay the course with the infield we have currently. Let them grow together and learn to hit breaking balls in the off season.
The only player I am not sure about is CES but Steer can play 1B better anyway. I do think Barrero should be the every day CF with Friedl in LF and Benson in RF. Fraley will be DH and rotated in both LF and RF. Dunn becomes an X Factor and may end up in CF to start the season
Might as well bring up Phillips and Antone and Dunn and see what they can give you as this season for all intents and purposes is done.
Not at all concerned about CES. Not every rookie can step in and make an immediate impact that McLain has made and India made in 2021. They are rookies and have growing pains. Baseball is hard.
To my better half, I totally agree. I think the only mistake was that they didn’t bring him up earlier when he was smoking hot. I think he is obviously pressing a little. His track record at every level, his compact swing and, his ability to hit to all fields against righties and lefties leaves me with plenty of optimism for the future. He obviously needs to get better at pitch recognition and should try to cut down his swing and just go the other way with two strikes. I predict he is going to be a very good MLB bat, but we will find out. He needs to be consistently in the lineup for the rest of the year and at least the first half of next year before we really can tell if he is going to be able to adjust to MLB sliders and changeups in the dirt.
I cannot remember many 100 mph pitchers who did that for their entire career. Ryan, Seaver, a few others.
Greene should get 100% healthy before he pitches to MLB hitters again.
Antone and Dunn are not healthy yet. No on Phillips. Why waste a year?
Watching Martini hit those 2 bombs Friday, the thought occurred to me that DH was the spot for Fraley if they keep him around.
The issue for me is that they cannot allow the selection of a platoon partner for Fraley to define their bench. Since only 30% or less of pitchers are LH, they cannot afford a partner for Fraley who has the same type of large skew in handedness in production in the reverse of Fraley’s. Ideally, the guy is going to OPS at .800 or better vs LH pitching but also no worse than .700 versus RH pitching.
That would be piling on and laughed at outside of Cincinnati. First place and 10 games over 500 on August 1. We (and the rest of the world) patted ourselves on the back for having an exciting rookie laden team. We are in a pennant race whether we like it or not. We can not choose to say we would rather be in third place looking for player development in September. That is for the Pirates and Nationals to market to their fans. If we are not going to compete, then we should have traded India and Senzel and Barerro and Diaz to real contenders for some MLB ready prospects. We have a GM choosing not to add pitching help and a Manager saying every other night that he has absolutely no concerns with the offense. (I don’t buy it but susposedly they are a lot smarter than me.). The absolute last thing we are going to do is limit Greene and Lodolo innings. They need max max innings as to build up for 2024. Abbott and Williamson may need to be limited here very soon …..not according to Krall though ….but that would be an absolute joke at this point. We don’t have diddly at AAA and that would be equivalent to admitting we needed pitching and/or asking to lose. The White Sox are currently being bashed for this and they were nowhere near first place 3 weeks ago. No, there are playoff impactful games to be played in September against Cubs, Twins, Mariners, etc. and we better not roll out journey man type pitchers in the name of “that is the best we have”.
Saw a prediction that the Reds would go after A. Chapman. I know he is getting up in age but maybe a 2 or 3 year deal. He still does a nice job. He clearly isn’t who he used to be.
I’m not as concerned with Greene’s performance as his health. Greene, and Lodolo are both seeming to be chronically injured. That’s not just on the Reds but also in the minors. Get these guys ready to go in 24, that’s really my only concern at this point, since we punted on 23 already.
Can this team contend for a World Series? Not very likely
Would making the playoffs this year go a long way in preparing for next year? Absolutely
Would it have been beneficial to add a rental to get an edge on making those playoffs? Personally I think so
Playing some playoff baseball this year would set the stage for next year. Let these young players see a playoff atmosphere so they are hungry for it next year. It might even entice a free agent to really want to sign on to be a part of it.
+10000 Well said. Building is incremental.
Totally agree. Getting into the playoffs is the most important thing at this point. Anything can happen there. Reference the third place Phillies in 2022. I don’t know many people who think McLain’s or CES individual performance is more important than the team’s performance.
come on Cruz, give us five innings tonight!
Is Cruz being used as a opener? Saw that and was like what the?
The Reds still in in? Marginally perhaps. The Reds are 5 behind the Brewers with 32 to play. Their poor performance over the last two nights have strengthened Arizona’s post season standing. The Reds are 8-14 in August. People always go back to weak roster, injuries, etc. No one can deny that this Reds team is loaded with talent. What the team isn’t loaded with is good coaching and player development. DJ, the supposed pitcher whisperer, apparently can’t teach Greene to pitch nor teach any of them reduce the number of walks issued. And hitting? Well, they do sometimes. In reality, I’d like to see EDLC, CES, and Marte head back to Louisville for the rest of the season and work on their hitting. As good as they are, they aren’t performing to their potential in Cincinnati. And knock off the Viking hats, etc. They may have been “America’s Team” back in June when they were winning. Now it like a bunch of kids playing dress up. Wins matter more than HRs and far more than strikeouts. And field management matters. And that is something that the Reds are sorely missing. Sadly, Castellini is no Jerry Reinsdorf, who though slow to act finally did.
Your not Americas team for long if you fade out of the playoffs.
It would be nice for somebody to hit a home run, especially a solo shot when we are behind to refuse the Cape and Helmet.
Agree about the Viking hat and cape, but I think it may be some sort of mandate by MLB as other teams have the same ritual after home runs, such as Milwaukee with the cheese head.
I actually took offense to them claiming to be America’s team. Sorry even when we were in first place, I felt uncomfortable hearing that. If anyone is going to be America’s team it should be the Braves consistently good and well managed. I hate the Braves with a passion ever since the 90’s but They know how to build a solid team almost every year.
DJ, appears to be more concerned with spin rate, etc, then location, changing speeds, and setting hitters up.
Also, the hitting coach in HR or bust.
These are both significant issues.
Agree on DJ. He seems sold out on individual pitch type quality and the sales like theory that if a guy throws enough of those pitches over time, he will succeed.
That might work for a starting pitcher but it doesn’t cut the mustard for relievers. A reliever first and foremost must throw strikes. They need a live fastball they can reliably spot in areas of the zone unfavorable to the reliever. Add a mediocre breaking pitch and change up working off that fastball and the job will get done.
unfavorable to the BATTER not the reliever above.
The idea that going back to Louisville is going to help doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. They were putting up great numbers there, even barrero is. The problem they all have is that major league pitchers execute to your weakness and make less mistakes. All of then need to have better approaches and that comes from experience and coaching. Im not sure they are getting much of the latter.
Unsurprisingly, I see things differently:
Williamson went from a 1.9 WHIP at AAA to 1.2 under DJ. None of the guys in the bullpen were big-time prospects; several were castoffs–Diaz, Gibaut, Law, Young, Farmer, and Cruz have all flourished under DJ. Abbott has flourished under DJ.
As for the Viking celebration, none of us are in the clubhouse. Just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean it doesn’t contribute to team chemistry.
Reinsdorf has a reputation for being heavily involved in baseball decisions. It’s been widely reported that the Front Office he just fired didn’t want to hire Larussa three seasons ago. Lots of recent articles document these facts. Reindorf is actually one of the very MLB owners who is worse than Castellini.
The young players, Marte, EDLC, CES, all conquered AAA. They need to master MLB pitching that generally can exploit their weaknesses. AAA pitchers are good enough to get them out. In short, they need MLB experience.
I suspect the Louisville hitting coach is more effective. And the pitchers less so. Nonetheless, you can’t discount the psychological impact that flailing in the majors is having on them. As for Barrero hitting in Louisville, maybe it’s from playing every day. And remember Votto didn’t hit in Louisville and Senzel hadn’t hit yet either. And BTW, the Reds rehabbing pitchers, e.g., Santillian aren’t setting the world on fire in Lousville.
In 1964 the Reds were 8.5 games behind Phillies in Sept 15. They finished tied for second, 1 game behind Cardinals.
The fact is since they beat the Cubs to go 10 over they have played 6 games under and not a fun or fundamental brand of baseball. The rookies are playing like rookies who need some solid coaching and to say the least this current staff is not helping much at all. The sad thing is I don’t see that improving for the rest of Bell’s tenure. He is a buddy and not a coach. He was smiling a lot in the dug out last night during that horrible performance, Sweet Lou would have been throwing things.
Agreed, I see way too much smiling and laughter when obvious mistakes are being made.
At the least Lou would have told them to stuff the cape until the HR actually meant something toward the outcome.
This is exactly why I was sick when I saw Bell was extended. I have been a manager in several positions in life and I always tell my co-workers. I’m not here to be your friend. Do your job first then we can have fun after the work is done. Also, I have made friends at work, but it has never been a priority to me. You’re at your job to do the best you can. If you make friends on top of it that’s just a added bonus.
The Viking hat and cape look sharp but just like kids, these youngsters will go out of their way to try to hit the homer with a corresponding negative result on strikeouts, moving runners over, plate discipline and so on. Can’t Bell realize this even though it can’t be directly measured? We don’t have a veteran team here. He’s playing to their overall undisciplined mentality and lack of maturity which he does nothing to help.
I once saw a team that just had a simple bell at the far end of the dugout that the player hitting the dinger would ring once. That’s appropriate, low key and logical. Not sure which team it was.
The Reds need to get a similar kind of bell to replace the other Bell if they really need a gimmick.
Bullpen has been overworked and we are in the middle of crucial stretch to make the playoffs so the Reds management (krall and Bell) have decided today is a bullpen day and Cruz is starting? The logic is flawless and the rest of us are mere peasants in their world.
I assumed Lively would get the start as he didn’t start yesterday in Louisville. Which didn’t inspire any hope anyways considering the way he has been pitching.
Bailey. Shogo. Moustakas. Greene.
Bell sacrificed the game to have a well rested bullpen for today since the starter was TBD it suposed to be Ben Lively apprently but maybe a possible bullpen day option exists too. It is very necessary to win today as the offense should improve significantly taking better ABs and lower the chasing being smart to select the pitches…The Reds still taking the remaining of the series will be in a good position to stay in the playoff race and go to SF finishing this tough roadtrip…
IMO I struggle with sacrificing any game to have a well rested bull pen for the next day.I realize its a long ride from Louisville to Arizona but the Reds knew this trip was coming and knew after the first one was rained out and the next day DH it was going to get crazy and it has.Nobody could have expected Greene to go more then 5 or 6 at most and more then likely Kennedy was going to be used to start today but was put in last night and went 5 and is done for awhile.My point is this if you are going to wave the white flag don’t do it with your next days starter.This is on the Reds cause Kennedy can’t do both jobs.I could be missing something here but don’t we have a long man at Louisville or maybe just bring up the Bats starter to start tonight.I realize injuries have taken a toll on this team and maybe this mess couldn’t be avoided but goodness sake we have to be better then this.Heck Mills is still down there and Stoudt
Yes, I agree… Particularly I would hooked Kennedy after he gave 2 leading walks in the bottom of the 6th and trailing 5-4 and trying to hold Dbacks hoping the offense could come back against their relievers… But Bell didn’t think so and his evident plan was Kennedy completing that game happens whatever it happens…
Why sacrifice a game when you’re running out of games to play. You can’t sacrifice a game to save your BP. Bell is the worse manager in baseball no sense of what it takes to win. I was at the game last night spent over $200 for three people. Got a manager that gives up on trying to win and doesn’t call out players when they make a boneheaded mistake. You have to call people out and show them why they shouldn’t do that. He stood by watching H Greene get beat around in the 4th. Then lets Kennedy keep pitching or walking people when he should have taken him out. No one warming up in the BP. If we didn’t give up those last 2 runs — game gets tied and who knows what happens in extra time. Please do everyone a favor and fire Bell. We can do better. What has Bell done since he was hired?
Bk, my whole opinion on why they should have given Williamson an earlier opportunity is solely based on how absolutely horrible Weaver was. Those poor stats by Williamson were still better than Weaver’s. We all could see that Weaver wasn’t the answer, so why not give someone else a shot. It didn’t have to be Williamson but your highest ranked pitcher that according to your scouts was close to ready makes sense. The reality was that whoever we gave a shot to probably wasn’t going to be worse than Weaver.
The timeline doesn’t support your assertion. Weaver had a WHIP of 1.3 through the month of May–there was good reason to expect improvement in his results. Williamson was called up on May 16. The wheels came off for Weaver in June when his WHIP eclipsed 2, weeks after Williamson was already on the Red’s roster.
Just plain frustrating. Happy for Benson to get the slam, but the game wasn’t nearly as close at the final score indicated at first glance.
My mantra continues to be … we weren’t even supposed to be here. we’re way ahead of what was expected.
That combats the sense of despair that comes with the front office/ownership and our Field Manager (currently headed for a #75 ranking out of 30 in MLB).
Sorry, but “we weren’t supposed to be here” will never make me feel better about the last month. First, because I never thought this team was going to be nearly as bad as a lot of other people kept insisting (I expected Stephenson, Myers, Greene, and Lodolo to be really good this year, was excited to be rid of Moose and Minor, and I assumed at least one or two of the prospects would be making some contributions at some point — at least I wasn’t TOTALLY wrong about ALL of that), and second, because I just can’t overlook the fact that a couple decent pitchers and/or some smarter managing would probably mean we’re still in or around first place right now. The inaction, and the bad managing, are both self-inflicted wounds that didn’t need to happen.
+1000
To still be within reach of the Brewers and right in the WC hunt despite all the negatives of the last month underscores why the Reds should have been pitching buyers at the break, not why they were so smart to back away from buying.
Unfortunately, the top self-inflicted wound is an immovable object, otherwise known as a person. Krall could have pulled a genius move by guaranteeing Bell the 3 years tenure and salary but having the right to remove him as manager and place him in the executive box at any time.
I guess I’m just blowing smoke again. Can cite any precedent.
Didn’t Finnegan go right from TCU to the Royals? Idk why they didn’t rest Lowder a month and then give him a couple of tune ups at Louisville. That tall kid for Miami is 20 or 21. Marte and Elly are 21. Turn the kid loose. 95+ and changes speeds with movement. Why not? Maybe babying all these kids is why they can’t hack it
IRM, I’m with you. First contract players are relatively cheap. Successful starting pitchers are too expensive in free agency. I like the logic.
Earlier in the year the Reds really were finding out at bats and putting the ball in play and were patient at the plate. Since the all star break I think there had been a shift to hitting dingers and Reds players are falling into the same trap as years past. Just my observation. I wonder if walk rates and K rates reflect that.
Grinding out at bats*
Yes, I have noticed this too. A few exceptions exist but overall, several players have been trying to hit the ball out of the yard it looks like. Swinging a lot more pitches that are balls too. ELDC has been so in consistent. Steer has been only ok lately. Mcclain continues to impress me. His at bats are just really good.
Can someone explain to me why Benson bats so low in the order all the time? I feel like he should be batting 6th or 7th at worst. I like Friedl batting leadoff but wonder how Benson would do up there. He has some good speed and makes nice contact overall.
McClain is always grinding. I wonder if that was a “culture” thing we are missing with out India? I don’t know…just an observation.
I’ve liked McLain from day one. Just extremely fundamentally sound in all areas of the game. Best player on the team IMO. Steer is a definite keeper. The only legitimate reason for Benson (who keeps on that .270 mark among other impressive feats) to bat where he does is perhaps he needs to see several ABs to get a feel for the pitcher. That could be a legitimate temporary move but the more it persists and goes unanswered leaves only the ever mysterious hand of David Bell.
NFL GMs, have figured it out with running backs. Play the young guns, don’t spend big money on veteran RB’s. I think I would do they same with pitchers. Go with talented young arms, carry more bullpen guys and less traditional starters. Rotate talented young arms from AAA and AA to MLB has needed. Ride the hot arms. Try to lock up your most talented young position players to affordable contracts. Invest in scouting and minor league player development. Keep the train rolling.
I made the mistake of re-watching Moneyball last night. That was another team that wasn’t “supposed” to be any good, but they actually tried to win anyway.
I know a lot of the scenes were fiction, so maybe it never happened, but I was struck by the scene when Billy Beane goes into the locker room after an early season loss, when the team had really been struggling, finds Giambi and some of the other guys dancing around with music blaring, grabs a bat and smashes the CD player (or whatever the device was) to bits, and says “Hear that? That’s what losing sounds like.” It got their attention.
Whether or not anything like that actually happened, it demonstrates what leadership COULD look like. With the 2023 Reds, what I picture is Bell walking in and finding the music blaring, guys are dancing around with their helmets and capes, and he just grins and goes quietly to his office to think very hard about whatever it is that he thinks about between games (“should I have Benson hit 8th or 9th tomorrow?”). And I imagine Krall is completely oblivious and indifferent, because he’s too busy thinking about whatever it is that he thinks about between games (“which bad starting pitcher will be available to sign next year?” What will the team look like in 2026?”)
And the next day, everything probably looks pretty much the same as the day before, and people say “well, this team wasn’t supposed to be good this year.”
I’ve heard Jr Griffey talk several times about the lessons he learned as a kid hanging out in the Reds clubhouse in the mid 1970s.
He said for a 5-6 year old, figuring out the difference between winning and losing was easy. After a win, there was red pop, loud music, joking, and laughter. After a loss, there was no red pop, music, or laughter.
Judging from the atmosphere in the Reds dugout last night, these guys have never been deprived of red pop, loud music, or laughter.
It seems to me this team offensively is pressing, relying on the home run because they know with the current state of the pitching staff they need to score 5 or 6 runs to have a chance. They’ve become undisciplined at the plate and the lack of coaching obviously is showing up late in the season.
The acquisition of Moll aside, an unwillingness to get pitching help by the front office deflated this team in my opinion. It put added pressure on the offense to perform, and signaled that the front office didn’t really believe in this team enough to make a post season push.
Definitely a difference between now and then. I go back and forth on this. You would think they are professionals and could make adjustments. But it is nearly everybody which is suggestive of caving to the pressure. Also suggestive that it might not get better until too late and might happen again upon the next pressure. That is not upbeat news. Just can’t remember seeing this type of wheels coming off event. They continue to not hit against bad pitching. Are the 15-16 hit games over?
Clearly, David Bell is a pathetic manager. Krall and ownership failed the team at the trade deadline. Both worthy of replacement. Bell for sure, he has indisputably demonstrated his managerial incompetence.
Fernando Cruz listed as our starter tonight.
It will be a bullpen night. Cruz starts and pitches one or two innings, and then…onward!
Which might, in part, explain Bell’s moves and keeping Kennedy in so long on Friday night. Which caused them to lose the game, and they will lose again tonight.
There is no help on the way for the pitching from anywhere the rest of the season.
Any news on India’s scan, it was scheduled for the 24th?
I haven’t seen anything yet regarding India’s scan.
Latest is saying an early September return.
I did read that he was mad over the Reds handling of the 1st occurrence when they had him cease running for only one week.
Then he saw a Dr in L.A. that scanned him, and deduced that the tear was worse than the original diagnosis, and that he should have been shut down from running for 2 weeks opposed to the one week.
Typical of the Reds medical handling(mishandling)of injuries.
This was from a Fox Sports article.
I think almost everyone on this board is so tired of Bell that they have actually given up on this team. I just wish one player would speak out about how inept Bell is. They have to know it and if they don’t realize that they are getting inferior coaching then this team is in more trouble than I thought. I don’t think it could be one of the young guys but surely some older player has to realize what is going on.
Has there been an older player in the dugout all year that’s played on a winner in even the near recent past?
You make a good point and perhaps that’s why this team was never meant to make the playoffs. 32 games to go they have to go 15 and 17 to finish above .500, that is going to difficult.
Moose, but that sort of begs the question 🙂
I agree with most everyone else that this season has fallen into the “what could have been” category. The inactivity at the trade deadline was dissapointing but it is water under the bridge at this point.
Couple of things to work on over the winter…
1. Bring in an established starting pitcher (or two) if they can, either by trade or through free agency. Trading for one would probably be the easier of the two, since neither the ballpark nor the manager are exactly magnets for free agent pitchers.
2. I really hope the Reds work of fundamentals, especially on defense and particularly with EDLC. His speed and talent are wonderful things, but at only 21 years old his baseball IQ is still lacking (case in point last night’s game with the short pop fly to left).
Overall, the Reds future is very bright, it just may take a little effort to become not only become a competitive team, but a dominate one.
No doubt this team needs to work on fundamentals, but are we sure EDLC was really to blame for that problem? He went back on a ball that wasn’t far out of the infield, and it was a ball he could easily get to. So, that part wasn’t a mistake. The only possible mistake was if Steer was calling him off and Elly refused to yield, but that wasn’t what I saw when I looked at the replay. It looked to me that Steer may not have called it at all, and if he did, it was late and wasn’t very emphatic. I think this was more his mistake than Elly’s. But, either way, it’s a ridiculous thing to happen on a major league team, even with rookies. Even rookies are supposed to know how to deal with pop-ups between the infield and outfield.
Ben Lively has been activated, and Alex Young has been placed on the 15-day disabled list. As far as pitching goes the Reds look to be running out of bullets. Long term, I haven’t lost any faith in Hunter Greene, but in the short term I do have worries. Lodolo? Who knows. Sonny Gray is a free agent after this year, should we show an interest?
The old saying that you can never have enough pitching, is truer now more than ever.
Hunter Greene was a #1 draft choice. As an 18 year old, he could throw over 100 mph. This was a “no brainer” to draft a “once in a generation talent”.
I am now much less than impressed. He throws hard, but cannot pitch effectively. He has had stretches where he has pitched well, and he certainly may NOT be at 100% right now, coming back from the DL and rehab. But really, when are we going to see this “once in a generation talent” pitch consistently for the Reds?
Nick Lodolo is injury prone. It happens. I don’t know why. Will he ever be healthy and physically sound for a whole season of baseball? I kind of doubt it.
And I have no concept of why Kennedy continued to pitch last night when it was obvious he was not effective, did not have good control. Really, what was David Bell thinking? People bust on David Bell for a lot of things, some rightfully and some not, but LAST NIGHT was a golden example of Bell keeping a guy in that did not “have it”. Was there no one else available?
The Reds cannot be a winning team being managed this way.
Oh, and Ben Lively is back. He will get shelled by the D-Backs, too. He has been lousy with the Riverbats while on rehab.
Greene is coming off of being injured for around three months. Give the kid a break. He is young and still figuring things out, on top of the injury. He certainly needs to develop a viable consistent third pitch, but I think he has a bright future. He has shown periods of dominance. Remember when nobody wanted anything to do with Benson? How about Friedl? Williamson? Plenty of others over the years too. Sometimes it takes some struggle before a young guy can figure things out. He just turned 24 and it was his second start back from injury. And he looked pretty dang good for four innings.
Last night, Greene pitched 3 2/3 innings, gave up five runs on five hits, with five base on balls. No Home runs, though. 4 strikeouts.
That is not what I would call pretty dang good. Maybe he is not really physically ready to pitch from rehab, and the Reds (and Hunter) wanted him back pitching too soon.
Just very disappointing start for Hunter. Next week, I think he will pitch against the Giants, I suppose.
You are correct. I should have said three innings. My point is that it is important to be patient with the young players–not giving up too soon on them.
Greene can throw hard, but he has yet to prove that he can be a winner at starting pitcher. Abbott has already win more games that Greene has. Abbott is 8-3. It will be a few years at least before Greene’s overall record gets to 5 wins over .500.
I think it’ll take about 87 wins to get a playoff spot at least the 6th spot. An overly optimistic thought but the Reds could be 71-71 after the Cubs and Mariners series in September and go on a tear the last 20 games go 16-4 and make the playoffs. I don’t think it’s gonna be the Reds but I feel like some team is just gonna go on a roll the last 15 games Cubs, Giants, Dbacks, Reds? etc. For MLB the extra playoff spot is kind of exciting.
It seems like it’d be hard for Fraley to come back with a foot injury and be super effective. I think like others said they are gonna run out of bullets in the pitching…but I like the toughness of Ashcraft, Abbott, even Williamson and maybe even these last couple stinkers by Greene help him toughen up a bit down the stretch. I just hope for Greene it’s not an injury issue. He might be better off as a late inning reliever for the rest of the year but I don’t see that happening.
I though a few weeks ago the Reds won’t be in the race by the time they play the Cubs in September. To me in the race is within 3-4 games of playoff spot. I fear they are going to get whooped vs. the Cubs and Mariners when returning home. They’re hanging around though so I think maybe the Reds have one more minor burst in them at least to stay in the race till the last week. It’d be fun to see at least.
Same lineup tonight with TySteve catching.
Bell gave it a tremendous amount of thought and decided it’s exactly right again.
Stuart Fairchild is starting rehab at Louisville tonight (Saturday). I believe he is eligible to return (7 day concussion list) on Monday. Given the size and configuration of the outfield in San Francisco, I’d guess there is a good chance he will be activated for Monday if he comes through tonight and Sunday in solid shape on rehab.
Fairchild K’d in his 1st PA then singled on his 2nd and came around to score from 1st on a following double but then was lifted from the game.
I wasn’t watching or listening, just picked it up from a gameday play by play; but, I’d think all things being equal he would have stayed in longer if he felt OK.
Post All Star hitting stats, these guys have really struggled…about 700 at bats between those 4 averaging about a .200 avg and .250 obp for a big part of the lineup. Not to pick just on those guys…baseball is such a long season…if one or two could turn it around it’d really help. Frield oddly, is a better hitter against lefties, so Bell putting him lower in the lineup against lefties is a little strange.
De La Cruz .191 avg .255 obp
Friedl .226 avg .266 obp
Stephenson .195avg .258 obp
Votto .177 avg .273obp
Bell’s handedness bias is irrespective of stats. Always has been. Except for Winker and Votto.
Sad but true. Imagine, two guys who underwent major repair work on a shoulder coming up on a year ago falling off to numbers like this. Who would have ever thought that might happen, especially when one of them is 40 or thereabouts. ;.-)
The play of Steer, McLain, Benson, and Elly’s 1st month really covered a lot of warts at a very convenient juncture for Nick Krall, David Bell et al.
Indeed! Then, Craig Counsell came in with a plan and good pitching to destroy the lineup with 3 shutouts. Ain’t been the same since. Good managers matter more than 4-5 games a year.
Despite all the horrible stats Bell continues to say the offense is fine. 3 more years.