Toronto dominated every aspect of the game in defeating the Cincinnati Reds, 10-3, before 31,529 at Great American Ball Park.
| Final | R | H | E |
|---|---|---|---|
| Toronto Blue Jays (69-56) | 10 | 12 | 2 |
| Cincinnati Reds (64-61) |
3 | 7 | 4 |
| W: Ryu (2-1) L: Greene (2-5) Sv: Francis (1) |
|||
| Statcast | Box Score | Game Thread | |||
Hunter Greene was pounded in historic fashion in his first game back after two-plus months off with a hip injury. Toronto scored four runs off Greene in both the second and fourth innings, and it was pretty much over at that point.
Since the Reds were 10 games over .500 at 50-40, they’ve gone 14-21. After winning the opener of this series, they dropped the final two. They are now a game behind the second-place Cubs, who defeated the Royals today, and may fall four games behind first-place Milwaukee if the Brewers hold on to the 3-1 lead they had after 5 1/2 innings against the Texas Rangers.
The Reds leave for a 10-game California road trip against the Angels, Diamondbacks and Giants. This is a key stretch of this season coming up. If they continue the 40-percent win pace, they could be pretty much out of the race by the time they return home.
The defense was terrible, with four errors today. Elly De La Cruz made two at shortstop, and I am absolutely not sold on him as the starting shortstop moving forward. He has seven errors, and is on a pace of 18 errors over a 162-game schedule. That’s not horrendous, but I think I notice it more because his fielding and throwing mechanics don’t look solid. He’s getting by on his amazing athleticism.
Noelvi Marte got his first major league start at third base, and after an early throwing error, he bounced at least a couple of other throws. You can give him a pass on that, with it being his first game. But the all-rookie infield was definitely not a bright spot today.
The Offense
Cincinnati’s team batting line today was: 7-for-35 batting, 1 walk and 12 strikeouts. Toronto lefty Hyun Jin Ryu has a history of pitching dominantly against the Reds, and that continued today. The young Reds hitters struggled against Ryu’s pinpoint placement of pitches of all sorts just where he wanted. Both runs he allowed were unearned.
Spencer Steer, who seems destined to be the team’s everyday left fielder for awhile, led the team with two hits. Tyler Stephenson hit an eighth-inning solo homer, and Marte got his first major-league hit, a hustle double, in the ninth inning.
Today was a tough day for the team, but Noelvi Marte is grateful for every opportunity he gets in the bigs. pic.twitter.com/CFDFkcDhy1
— Bally Sports Cincinnati (@BallySportsCIN) August 20, 2023
Trailing 5-0 in the bottom of the second, Cincinnati got a gift from the Toronto defense. With Spencer Steer on third and Christian Encarnacion-Strand on first after singles, Marte popped a ball to shallow left in his first major-league at-bat. It was easily caught, and Toronto third baseman Matt Chapman cut off the throw to the plate. He then fired to second to try to get CES, who had tagged at first and was headed to second. But Chapman’s throw was wild and rolled into wide-open right-center field, allowing both runners to score to make the score 5-2 Toronto.
The Pitching
The pitching line for the Reds as a team today: 9 innings, 12 hits, 10 runs, 9 earned runs, 4 walks, 6 strikeouts, 5 homers allowed.
To say that Hunter Greene wasn’t fooling anybody today is like saying a hurricane is a gentle breeze. In three-plus innings, Greene experienced a historically bad outing. Greene allowed the most extra-base hits in a game by a Reds pitcher since 1954. Of the 10 hits Greene allowed, nine were for extra bases. Five were homers, tying the most a Reds pitcher has ever allowed in a game. It certainly wasn’t what the Reds team and Redleg Nation were expecting in this big return from a hip injury that sidelined him for two months.
The game’s second batter, Bo Bichette, launched one to deep center that T.J. Friedl leaped and got his glove on, but the ball fell back to the warning track enabling Bichette to make third base. Brandon Belt followed with a shot that appeared to take a bad hop on a pulled-in second baseman Matt McLain. The ball got by, Bichette scored, and McLain was charged with an error. Vladimir Guerrero Jr. blasted a liner to right that Stuart Fairchild caught as he slammed into the wall. Fairchild later exited the game, and it was announced that he is in concussion protocol.
In the second, Danny Jansen smoked a double down the left-field line, followed by a Kevin Kiermeier homer to right to put Toronto up 3-0. Whit Merrifield then squared up Greene for a double to left-center. Belt followed an out later with a homer to right to build the Blue Jays lead to five.
That was followed by two hits and a walk to load the bases, but Greene got out of it by inducing a come-backer to end the inning.
Over 51 pitches in the first two innings, Greene threw 62 percent fastballs, 31.4 percent sliders and 5.9 percent changeups. The Blue Jays appeared to be waiting on fastballs, and they did severe damage most of the time when they swung. Over his final inning-plus, the ratio of fastballs diminished, but the damage didn’t.
The wheels came off in the top of the fourth when Bichette and Belt hit back-to-back solo homers to rebuild the Blue Jays’ lead to a five-run margin at 7-2. After a Guerrero walk, George Springer homered to left to make it 9-2.
Needless to say, things didn’t go the way Greene had hoped:
Hunter Greene is frustrated with his performance today and says he needs to go back and watch the tape to pinpoint what didn’t work for him. pic.twitter.com/XYQJ7cvEtB
— Bally Sports Cincinnati (@BallySportsCIN) August 20, 2023
Buck Farmer came in to finish the inning without any more runs scoring, and added a scoreless fifth.
Sam Moll pitched a scoreless sixth, and Derek Law did the same in the seventh and eighth. Alex Young surrendered a run in the ninth.
Up Next for the Cincinnati Reds
Cincinnati Reds at Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim
Monday, August 21, 9:38 p.m. ET
Graham Ashcraft (6-8, 4.89 ERA) vs. Lucas Giolito (7-9, 4.44 ERA)
Games like today’s are the reason why losses from mismanagement like last night are so brutal. Last night Bell pinch hit with his worst hitter on the roster and subsequently didn’t have Benson available in the bottom of the ninth down by one.
100% perfect agree with you. Now we don’t know if Benson would have gotten a hit against that lefty but the point is play your best players and stop pinch hitting with below average baseball players like Ramos. Now if it was India it makes much more sense.
A team of basically rookie and second year players are in a pennant race and the Manager and coaches are terrible?! Got it. Geez.
Except for the 1869 Reds, when everyone was a rookie, can’t recall a team with an entire rookie infield winning a championship
A young team, loaded with talent, kneecapped by lousy management and poor coaching. And apparently we can add Hopkins to the list of players that “love” playing for Bell, joining Senzel, and others now departed. Krall made the choice to be mediocre and now the fans just have to endure.
Steamroll is right Tom. If it weren’t for that silly error we probably only score one run. Just a very poorly played game all the way around. You might say, at least for now, that we’re “folding up like a cheap umbrella” down the stretch….again.
It’s the Bell way. It keeps happening
1000%. They will never play well in any pennant race under Bell.
I have thought for a long time, 3 years or so, they will never win big with Bell “ managing”.
The offensive has lost punch without Fraley against righties. Lefties continue killing the Reds.
I hear Randy Arozarena contacted Hunter after the game. He wants him to pitch to him for next years Home Run Derby. He figures it is all he needs to get over the top…
Senzel is finished in Cincinnati. Leaving with a bad taste in his mouth and in ours.
Anyone else find it interesting that they called up Marte instead of Senzel? I find it very interesting.
Senzel’s days as a Red are OVER…as they should be. His ceiling is hard.
I agree. Senzel will probably never be back in a Reds uniform. Marte wasn’t doing as well as McLain, EDLC, and CES but they probably figured he could give more than Senzel anyway and also be part of the future. Good move.
Reynolds is the guy who should have gotten the call, He has had a better year and is much more versatile. Taking nothing against Marte but they have started another clock ticking with a lot of guys becoming arbitration and free agent eligible in close proximity.
Just popped on X (Twitter) that Bell said Fairchild will be out with concussion symptoms. The concussion list is 7 days and rolls onto the regular 10 day IL after the 7th day if the player is not back.
https://twitter.com/CharlieG__/status/1693363453895803143
It will be interesting to see what move(s) the Reds make.
Someone posted that Siani was removed from the Bats’ game in Iowa today…
And apparently Barrero did not start either. After Hopkins sorry showing for Fairchild today, I could see multiple moves.
Siani was removed early. Barrero came in late. Siani can’t do any worse than Hopkins and he is at least a true centerfielder. I actually hope Barrero comes up too but Siani seems probable. Interesting Casali played most of the game so hopefully not him.
Here is the Louisville Box Score (they won 9-8). Siani did not appear at all. Barrero was a late sub as a pinch runner and stayed in at SS. Senzel appears to have played the entire game in CF.
https://www.milb.com/gameday/bats-vs-cubs/2023/08/20/725516/final/box
Ooops. Sorry, I take the above back. My eyes missed that Siani DID start in CF and Senzel at 3B with Senzel moving to CF to replace Siani who was lifted in the 2nd inning. Unless Siani himself was injured, this could be an indication he is joining the Reds.
Senzel started at 3B and moved to CF. Regardless what one thinks of Senzel, would someone please just put him at 3B and leave him be. Let him at least play good defense.
Can’t imagine they would let him fly with even a mild concussion. You could see him react to the back of his head when he hit the wall even before thinking to get ball back to infield.
EDLC needs to be the Reds center fielder, just silly not to have done that yet.
We have plenty of ss depth, and EDLC not the best defensive ss among the group. We do not have much OF depth, and if the Reds play EDLC in CF then all of a sudden we do — and we are stronger defensively up the middle. Seems like a no brainer to me…
I’ve been saying this since before they called him up we’ve Eric Davis 2.0 or Ken Griffey Jr (without quite so much plate discipline yet), and we should use him as such.
Honest question: where does Friedl play then?
4th OF.
In what universe if Friedl the 4th outfielder? He’s basically been the best player for the Reds this season.
You’d have one of the best arms in the game completely wasted in CF. He requires an increase in his skills to go with his tools. I’m surprised no one has suggested we demote him to learn his lesson. Better yet, trade him while his value is up.
Look, If not SS, then 3B. But he will have to play himself off of SS. Remember Derek Jeter had over 50 errors one season. He turned out OK.
“You’d have one of the best arms in the game completely wasted in CF”
I don’t agree with that. A strong arm is needed for an elite centerfielder. I’m thinking EDLC leads the league in outfield assists, keeps countless runners from even trying in a whole season, robs home runs off the wall, and wins gold gloves out there covering the gaps…. but I’m in a minority I guess.
How many decisive plays a game does a short stop make?
How many decisive plays a game does a CF make?
Case closed. Don’t even. It’s not even close.
The kid has a bad game and he’s now relegated to the OF. Does anyone realize how ridiculous this sounds to the rest of the country?
It’s borderline embarrassing.
EDLC will be given every chance to play himself off of shortstop. And then some.
People here would benefit from taking a moment to breathe and climbing back down off the suicide ledge.
Didn’t anyone see the Jays” inning throwing the ball away for 2 runs?
As Barry would say, “My goodness.”
“How many decisive plays a game does a short stop make?
How many decisive plays a game does a CF make?”
Depends on whose pitching and other factors. Anyway I believe he’ll be pretty good no matter where he plays but he will be elite at CF. Does’t look like it will happen and I doubt they will ever listen to ANYONE on here for advice. lol
I really want EDLC to be the 3B. It looks like his best position by far. I also like McLain at SS, he’s very solid. I doubt we see that, the plan looks pretty straight forward. Marte 3B, EDLC SS, McLain 2B, CES 1B.
One of the best arms in the game wasted in center field? Hardly. CF, along with the catcher and shortstop , among the starting eight, are the most important positions. Perhaps some fans are not familiar with Willie Mays, the great Hall of Fame centerfielder of the N.Y. and S.F. Giants. No one who saw him play would ever say his incredible arm was wasted in CF.
Good point TR.
TE, one problem. You cannot answer there are more game-critical throws from CF than SS. It’s folly. SS is far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far > SS. Get it yet?
Since the all-star break he is hitting below .200 and striking out over 40% of the time, I don’t he needs a position change on his plate at the moment
No I don’t either since he’s never played there. Off season yes.
We’re not debating his offense.
The attacks are that EDLC should not be at SS. To which the entire planet but RLN says, “Whuh?”
Except RLN.
It’s just stupidity.
Dave is right. This whole discussion is insane. Truly people held captive by the moment. EDLC is a very good defender at the hardest and most important defensive position outside of catcher. There is no one in the baseball world questioning him playing shortstop outside of the comments section of this website.
Hitting under .200 and strikes out alot? Hey! Lets bat him leadoff for a month in a pennant race!
It is not as easy to say tomorrow you are an outfielder, it takes some preparation. He has a lot of adjustments to make right now, like strike zone and base running discipline, and not a new position to learn.
Every day brings more challenges to Bell and his coaching staff.India out,Fraley out,young guys struggling at times just to put the ball in play,defense bad and Votto not helping at all.Greene got hammed today but the Reds only scored 14 runs in 5 games on this home stand with 7 in one game.Offense must pick it up and there ain’t nobody saying get on my back and let me lead us.These next 10 games on the road will define this season IMO so lets see what Bell and his staff can do.It has to be them to right the ship to motivate these guys to play better cause there is not anybody else.
Roger, I disagree a little on defining the season. If anyone thought this team would be playing meaningful games in August especially with 3 rookies outhitting Votto and two rookie left handers being the team’s top starting pitchers, then their noses are growing as I type.
The definition has been a great, very entertaining season and like it or not Bell will be a top candidate for NL Manager of the Year.
That man’s biggest challenge is in the mirror every morning. What am I going to do today to tinker and meddle with my baseball team? Should I take the names and shake them up in a hat for a lineup? Should i use 7 pitchers today even though the staff is exhausted? Should i take a youngster who is struggling w contact and bat him leadoff in a pennant race? Should I play the 40 yr old one trick pony over the young guys who have been producing? David Bell’s biggest challenge is hisself.
Connie Mack managed the A’s for 53 years, does David Bell have a chance to break his record? Now Bob C. would tell you Mack won more games (3731) than any other manager but the smart fan would reply Mack also lost the most games (3948). I suggest Bob would like you to focus more on the former than the latter. I realize that David Bell will be the manager of the Cincinnati Reds for the rest of my life – it’s a burden I will have to bear.
I fear that by the time they return from upcoming West Coast swing the season will be all but lost. But the future looks extremely bright.
Tom was brutally honest about this one, and rightfully so. I’m guessing he doesn’t get to comment about management. Greene got bombed. I’m not too surprised given the length of his time off. But the offensive woes just won’t go away. How many earned runs against the Jays in three games? Five? The only bright spot was the overall performance by the relievers (again).
On the “bright” side, at least this series they struggled against a good trio of pitchers. Not some rookie or journeyman with an ERA over 5 like we’ve seen so many times in the past…
The other day on this site, two guys gave me grief over my statement that we weren’t hitting quality pitching. Sounds like you’re saying we haven’t been hitting low quality pitching, either. Lol Thanks for the validation!
Lineups, relief pitcher usage, all that stuff doesn’t get me worked up in the midst of a season where the team is overachieving, but the pitch sequencing for Greene sent me through the roof. I was instantly transported back to the first half of 2022 where the brain trust thought he can get by with just a plus fastball….they still genuinely think he’s bringing a gun to a knife fight. I couldn’t agree with Boddy more when he says the offspeed stuff protects the fastball. Multiple home runs by left-handed hitters, and yet in those at bats not a single changeup was thrown. In fact the only changeup (of two I saw) thrown for a strike induced a pop out. The hubris it takes to think you can game plan to throw multiple fastballs in a row to the heart of a major league order without them adjusting.
The Reds lost this game before they ever stepped on the field.
What frosted me most was sending Greene back out to get pounded on more in the 4th after the Reds had pushed across a couple to make it a 5-2 game. They pull pitchers who have life left in their arm and give relievers chances to blow games they lead but won’t pull a guy who is running on fumes in a game that they just fought their way back into. What a terrible message to this young club.
Yes Jim. We still had a decent chance at 5-2. Terrible managing in a pennant race.
sub .500 team at home is inexcusable in this instance … pure reflection of Bell’s
ineptness as a manager
There was just no rational reason to
extend him for an additional 3 years when they chose to do so …we’ve all seen this movie before
Sultan, I’ve been saying the same thing about Greene and his overreliance on the fastball since the beginning. Plus, his fastball never got over 97 today, did it? Not that it would have mattered. He dished them up like meatballs.
He hit 100 multiple times
??? His fastball was triple digits on the first pitch of the game.
Sultan and Jim W — Could not agree more. Hunter Greene, who is talented to be sure, has a lot to learn about MLB pitching — with a CAPITAL P. And Reds’ management needs to recognize that this is the case for more than just him. Guys like Ashcraft and Abbot demonstrate that pitching is more than simply overpowering hitters with fastballs. MLB hitters are Big Boys and know how to hit them.
But….as others have said, the bigger concern lately has been with the hitting. Yes, these guys are mostly rookies. But they are making the same dumb mistakes over and over. That goes back to coaching. As does the repeated poor fielding and baserunning. This is a MUCH DIFFERENT team (and not for the better) than it was in in June/early July.
My observation overall — this is a very young, talented team without a rudder or guiding, galvanizing force. I expect better. And we all should.
At this point, Derek Law is a better pitcher than Hunter Greene and Nick Lodolo.
As far as the position players, it looks like the young players are struggling with the mental focus needed to get thru “the big 162” as Scott Rolen used to call it. The get away games (last game of the series) are almost always a loss. Day games (heat of day, bad lighting) are almost always a loss. More and more errors from the young guys. More and more non-competitive at-bats leading to double digit strikeouts. More and more base-running mistakes.
They are not handling adversity (loss of players to injury) well at all. This is on the players and coaches to figure it out. Major league baseball is hard, and it is especially hard on guys who are rookies and 2nd year players that haven’t experienced 162 games at the highest competitive level before. Hopefully this year’s hard lessons are remembered in 2024 and used to fuel off-season improvement.
Greene has a 3.18 ERA over his last 18 starts and you are going to use a bad start after a long layoff to say Law is a better pitcher?
Cherry picking data to try to prove a point is not a valid approach. Greene’s ERA for the season is considerably higher than 3.18. Derek Law’s ERA is considerably lower, when comparing over the entire season.
Cherry picking data is important when faced with an apples to oranges comparison. Anyone who knows baseball knows that having a low ERA as a reliever is significantly easier than as a starter. There is a reason Law isn’t a starter. It’s easy to come in for one inning and bring your max effort stuff every pitch and never see the same hitter twice. If Greene was in that situation he would be virtually unhittable. He would probably be hitting 105 on the radar as a reliever. So yes, looking at Greene’s last 18 starts is very reasonable when someone wants to make the absurd assertion that Law is better than Greene at this point.
Best ability is availability.
Losing Fairchild is just another blow. I have complained a lot about how much he plays and it really isn’t him as much as the way Bell has used him. He would make a good 4th or 5th outfielder but unfortunately that is not how Bell has used him.
He’s playing more because Fraley is out, and Senzel was sent down.
Barry Bonds wasn’t available to fill the missing slots, so Stu moves up to play more.
It’s pretty obvious that Ramos and Hopkins shouldn’t be getting more starts, so it’s Stu’s chance to excel.
Just add this game to the long list of games in which Bell has seemed more interested in accomplishing something other than giving his team the best chance to win the game. The lineup and his unwillingness to remove Greene until the game was completely out of hand could literally be used as evidence in a court of law that Bell isn’t trying to get this team into the playoffs.
+5,000
Some folks here read every criticism of Bell as if it were Bell’s fault the Reds lost the game.
While I agree there have been games when a costly strategic error from Bell likely cost the game, it is true that he didn’t strike out eleven times.
i do think it is a fair criticism though to call Bell on whether he is doing all he can and making the strategic decisions to “giving his team the best chance to win the game.”
He does seem to throw in the towel early sometimes, as I think he did today by leaving Greene in to get continually pounded.
Pull him after 6 runs? 7? 9?
Not sure whether it would have made any difference today compared to Greene throwing a bit longer.
The game was lost early on.
But the manager should be the one who is trying, at least.
And mercy, Bell needs the practice, even if it is a manufacturing a few runs in a lost cause.
He was content running 4 relievers out there down by 8 runs. Why not try a few offensive gambits just for practice, as well?
Lineup juggling wouldn’t have made much of a difference for the grip ‘n rip Reds against the soft-tosser.
Losing 100 games in 2022 gave Bell a lot of practice being blase in his post game interviews.
Sometime he seems contentedly blase in the dugout as well. Willing to sit back and watch as well as he is micro managing L-R matchups, except when he isn’t.
The team is really caterwauling between games right now. Up one day, down for three.
Key players hurt. Young Turks getting their chance.
A lot of bad baseball to go with the good.
+ INFINITY
I’m with you for the most part. For me, the most telling thing about Bell is the constant ups and downs and the extreme limits of them.
By a quick count, I come up with 3 losing streaks of 6 games and an additional 2 more losing streaks of 4 during the 2023 season.
On the other side of the coin, I found 4 winning streaks of 5 games plus of course, the 12 game winning streak.
In total more than half of the Reds games have been part of these extended streaks.
And no, the trend did not start with the arrival of the rookies. In April the Reds had both a 6 game loser and 5 game winner.
In late May, they followed a 4 game loser with a 5 game winner to close the month only to open June with another 4 game loser. That’s 13 consecutive games that were part of streaks at least 4 games long.
In July 16 of 26 games were a part of streaks of at least 5 games in length, 2x 5 game winners, and a 6 game loser.
Without looking at Reds competition during their streaks and comparing their streakiness to other teams, definitive conclusions are not possible.
However, it seems to me that the go with the flow attitude that often seems to come through in David Bell’s public statements is reflected in his team’s behavior
“However, it seems to me that the go with the flow attitude that often seems to come through in David Bell’s public statements is reflected in his team’s behavior”
yeah
Figured as much on Fairchild. Backwards head smack will do that.
This is the kind of game you need to wipe from your memory and move forward. Too much wrong to even begin to unpack it in a post or comments. Back to memories of the 2021 collapse.
Limited watching time until Wednesday’s afternoon game. Them’s the breaks, right?
I feel bad for Fairchild. It took real guts to maintain focus on that ball, knowing for certain he was going to slam into the wall. To me it was a more impressive feat than what Friedl did on Friday night, though both were outstanding.
Great catch by Fairchild, man that was a hard hit against the wall. I hope he’s ok and concussion and he has no long term effects from that.
Reds 10 game trip hard to know what to expect. I’d be surprised if they go 5-5. That’d keep them in the race going into September. Maybe even 3-7 would. Right now they just don’t seem to have stalled out as a team, I don’t who or how they would ignite to make a push. The energy just doesn’t seem there. Maybe De La Cruz gets really hot, maybe the pitchers get on a roll, but I don’t see it now. I think finishing above .500 would be a small thing to celebrate though. Lots of potential with team going into 2024.
An established starting pitcher is needed for 2024 and on. A couple big trades are coming in the offseason which might include prospects who are not tier one.
It’s not going to happen if the pitcher they receive in return is making much over league minimum.
I will be shocked if the 2024 team payroll is anywhere close to this year’s payroll. Moustakas and Votto’s contracts coming off the books, notwithstanding.
A fan never really knows what Red’s management will do. That goes back, for me, to the days of owner Powell Crosley and GM Gabe Paul. The 1950’s, a long time ago, did not produce any pennants but the Reds were often competitive and an exciting team. I thought Luis Castillo might be extended but he was sent off to Seattle, along with Mahle to the Twins, for a haul of young exciting players who have and will recharge the Red’s offense. So, with the reality of Red’s ownership in mind, we fans never know.
And if I were the Mgr, I would take that stupid gimmick cape & viking helmet away(can’t say what I would actually do on a post) and tell the entire team that your reward for production is your paycheck, and the privilege of putting on a mlb Cincinnati Reds uniform everyday.
I would keep the cape and use it to celebrate rare events: sacrifice flies, walks, advancing a runner from second to third with less than two outs, getting through four at-bats without striking out, etc.
Good idea, but we’d be seeing fewer Vikings than the coast of Mexico did in the 10th C.
Agreed. We all want players to have fun, but it’s a ridiculous look to be in the dugout grinning and posing down 3-9. Kind of embarrassing. Maybe save it for some of the reasons mentioned above, or only if you’re leading or down no more than 2-3. Bad look. Sends message that individually homering matters more than winning. Or how about someone who makes an error, or strikes out with runners on has to pose for a pic wearing a come of shame?
+ 100000
Ridiculous celebrations, especially when you’re getting blasted, need to go. It’s time to play big boy baseball and realize you’re in a pennant race. I would say Votto could be the adult in the room but he’s trying too hard to fit in and be 25 again.
Amen Beaufort Red! Take your . Also, Bell is clueless on how poorly this reflects on him and his lack of leadership in allowing it to continue.
51 year old Barry Larkin refers to soon to be 40 yr old Votto as, Jo Jo! Lol
I can assure Joey that you can’t turn that age clock back. I’m soon to be 68, I quit trying to be “hip” years ago. Remember Joey telling Jim Day,” I’m hip Jim”! Lol
I had an edit snafu! Disregard the take your! My goodness as Barry would say! Lol
Amen to that. The childishness must cease and be replaced by professionalism.
Yes, we sorely need that to be applied.
And by the way, Castillo was a KEEPER.
Abbott’s stats compare very favorably to Castillo’s. And the prospect haul Castillo brought is plus.
All true. Still, a keeper.
But the team still doesn’t have a veteran on their staff. They’re either going to have to trade a haul of prospects (like what they received for Castillo) to get one this winter or overpay in free agency. Because they’re not going into 2024 expecting to contend for the division and simply hope Lodolo and Greene manage to stay healthy the entire year. It hasn’t happened yet and would be foolish to assume it will happen next year. And the Cardinals’ GM has already stated he intends to sign three starting pitchers.
The next 10-game roadtrip looks pivotal for the hopes to stay in the playoff race. Unfortunately the Reds aren’t playing good and still suffering absences by injuries. In addition, they will play a 4-game series against Arizona that will be very huge. By the way, Arizona is getting red-hot again just before face the Reds…I think a result of 5-5 still could keep the Reds in contention to come back to Cincinnati to play the Cubs a 4-game brutal series…
If you guys are right about Bell – that he would rather be liked than respected – then we are in deep trouble. That brand of leadership never works. Plus, guys like that are convinced they’re right, and they typically dig in their heels about it rather than change. They don’t know how to change, and the mere idea threatens them. They’re literally one of the boys.
Bingo on all counts…we’re screwed
+1,000
The Reds could fall under .500 by the end of their upcoming road-trip. Although, the Reds are nominally still competing for the NL title, it’s clear they’re best shot at a playoff.
Sadly, the Reds haven’t played like a playoff team for six or seven weeks now. I still contend it fell apart when the Red’s Front office failed to significantly improve the team at the Trade Deadline.
We can analyze David Bell’s management skills until the end of time, but I suspect ultimately, the fact that Red’s ownership is miserly, probably accounts for most of the Red’s ills.
To a point, yes, but ownership hasn’t exactly been rewarded when it decides to spend money. They spent lots of money on Moose, Shogo, Suarez, Minor, Myers, Pham, etc., but they’ve gotten much better production from cheap guys like Drury, Steer, McLain, Fraley, Benson, Abbott, Friedl, etc. In fact, if you look at team’s current salaries, there’s almost a perfect inverse relationship between salary and production. With few exceptions, the more they’re paying a guy in 2023, the less they’re getting from him. Highest paid guys on this team are Votto, Moose, Myers, Casali, Newman, Cessa, Weaver, Senzel…
The problems are more complex than just being unwilling to spend money. True, they’ve been unwilling to spend money the way many other teams have been, but they’re also just bad at figuring out HOW to spend money when they do decide to spend it.
For example: they’ve decided to invest in three more years of David Bell for no apparent reason whatsoever. That may be partly because they’re too cheap to pay for a manager who’s actually proven he can win something, but it’s also partly because they’re inept. Whatever they’re paying Bell, I’m confident they could have found someone better who’d be willing to work for the same amount of money. The Reds behaved as if Bell had all the leverage, when in fact it should have been the other way around. They’re just not very good at this.
“The problems are more complex than just being unwilling to spend money. True, they’ve been unwilling to spend money the way many other teams have been, but they’re also just bad at figuring out HOW to spend money when they do decide to spend it.
For example: they’ve decided to invest in three more years of David Bell for no apparent reason whatsoever.”
Yup
Ask the Yankees, Padres, and the Mets how spending bundles of money is working out. I’d rather have hungry players, playing for their next contract, then fat and happy players that have nothing to prove, because they already got their bag.
of the starting pitchers we have ,Greene scares me the most. from the first time I saw him as a Dayton Dragon many years ago he concerned me. His fast ball just seems pleasing to the eye to the batters. It seems to present itself well to them. it just naturally goes straight I guess.
Hunter Greene’s Horizontal movement on his 4 seam fastball is 27th in all of baseball (387 pitchers).
I love this narrative that several RLN posters use that his fastball has no movement.
Recency bias here is off the charts.
I trust results much more than spin rate stats that we just blindly trust as accurate. It can spin until its dizzy but big leaguers see a beach ball so thats the important stat. Results.
MLB Trade Rumors just posted an article online reviewing last winter’s 3-team trade involving the Brewers, Braves, and A’s. This was where the Brewers obtained Contreras and Payamps for their number eight prospect. One is controlled through 2026 and the other 2027. Obviously hindsight is 20/20 regarding Stephenson’s lack of production this year, but what a missed opportunity that could have been. It seems like Milwaukee is always a step ahead of the Reds (Yelich, Adames).
Or maybe the Reds are a step ahead of the Brewers….
The biggest heist, Strailly for Castillo
And in the last 18 months
Traded practically nothing (Boyd, Hajjar) for Benson (1.7 bWAR)
And also traded for Steer (1.8 bWAR), Fraley (1.1 bWAR), Williamson (1.2 bWAR), Marte, CES, Phillips (MiLs), Arroyo (MiLs) and Petty (MiLs)
Who’s a step ahead of who? Not the Brewers.
Not to mention what they owe Yelich until 2029 and what they will have to pay Burnes,and Woodard next year your looking at 55 mil on the low side for those 3 guys.Peralta and probably Adames will come calling as well over the next couple of years.We in good shape.
I thought the Reds got Castillo from Tampa Bay for Strailly, but maybe my memory is off?
Castillo from the Marlins
20 out of 30 teams have winning records at home. If the Reds have a .500 record at home , they would be 1 game out of first. They have 16 more games at home and 21 on the road including 10 in a row on this trip and then another 6 in a row. They play out west now for 10 in a row and then fly home for a day off. Then they have a double header against the Cubs. Not a good time for a double header. They might be out of it by then. The bandwagon is starting to empty out. My World Series tickets are fading and my thoughts are beginning to be about next year.
100% agree on Elly’s defense. His mechanics on the throws are rough at best. I still believe he will be a game changing player and at 21 he has plenty of room to develop. Right now, ooch. It’s not pretty.
Bottom line this team had one hot month and it fooled management not once but twice, first it made them foolish enough to think they didn’t need help at the deadline and 2nd it convinced them to do something that this team will pay for, for a long time in extending the worse manager in baseball for 3 years. My god I have trouble even typing that stupid move.
It was mind numbingly-stupid, but it’s what they always do. Even with this great window of opportunity due to the incredible young talent already here or coming up they have torched the next three years by extending the worst manager in baseball for no good reason …simply amazing. So this will be two out of three years of collapses… Sept. 2021 and this year…where Bell’s teams simply face-planted under the pressure of a playoff race.
Still believe this was all Bob in extending Bell.Bell is just part of the family.It is just so obvious after what has taken place the last 3 years and especially after last years 3-22 start and 100 loss season.No way he should have kept his job but he did and thats all we need to know.I do believe Bob has given Krall some leeway to make certain decisions and never thought he would pay players just to go play some where else but he did.Davis Bell is off limits for Krall.Sure Krall sets the roster and you have to know Bell would never have a roster full of rookies and guys in their second or third year.So Krall does have Bell there but thats as far as it goes.Bell is here just like Joey is for that matter as long as he wants to be.I can live with it cause I have no choice.All of us here starting with me ought to just accept it and move on cause I believe this team is turning the corner and will be competitive for the next several years despite the manager.Pro sports is really all about entertainment cause fans want to be entertained and this team with its youth and energy is entertaining.Americas team,fastest man in baseball,21,22,23 year old kids playing a kids game and a 39 year old man trying to find the fountain of youth.Whats not to like?
Couldn’t agree more with you. I think the grand bargain was Krall gets to manage the roster and take care of the back store, the minor leagues, but in return, he had to agree to put up with David Bell until the end of time. Nick Krall has done an amazing job, but we are going to find out how good this guy needs to be to figure this one out. Godspeed to him.
+100,000
Is Hunter Greene’s potential being limited as a starting pitcher whose home games are played at GAPB? Are the Reds going to be able to max out his value? Food for thought:
Would he be the ultimate lights-out closer in MLB? Is that where is stuff plays up?
How many of those 5 home runs leave the park in LA (Dodgers & Angels), SF or SD? Is he a much better fit as a starting pitcher in the NL West or with the Angels? If he is, how much value in return could the Reds expect especially given Greene’s very favorable contract?
I short, could it be Hunter is ultimately of more value to the Reds wearing another teams uniform?
I hope he doesn’t go the “closer route”. I consider that a waste of talent in multiple ways.
As for trading him, his contract certainly is desirable. But I’d rather see us work with him to improve his pitch mix and effectiveness/efficiency.
The loss yesterday and for the series was disappointing. The calendar soon flips to September and I’m thinking it takes a minor miracle for us to play beyond the published regular season schedule.
Still, we’re a far sight ahead of where we were supposed to be and where anybody predicted. Some sorting to manage yet this year, and I’m sure we all trust HDTBell both implicitly and explicitly to do that well … 😮
I’m wondering if the game against the Halos happens tonight. I saw a picture of Dodger Stadium posted and it wasn’t pretty. Might mean I get to see a little more baseball this week than originally planned if there is a double-header tomorrow.
Having this opportunity to be in playoff contention going into September is exciting. So many of us are starved for playoff baseball including me. Unfortunately when almost the entire roster has been in triple A this year it’s going to be really hard to play consistently to get there.
+1000
This is the heart of the matter – this team is young! We all dreamt of a playoff run in June, but the reality of maturing is much harder to face. Young teams learn from their failed playoff runs. Good pitchers learn from miserable outings.
The young Reds may still make the NL Central interesting (let’s hope). But the next 4-5 years are going to be exciting! We’ll be in the race with maturing talent.
2 thoughts…
1. If DB doesn’t cut it, he’ll be moved upstairs. NK has legitimately earned some influence within the organization. If NK is not in lock-step with his manager, a change will be made.
2. The assessment of off-season needs & payroll freedom should bring some “adjustments” by NK. Will be interesting to watch this winter!
“If NK is not in lock-step with his manager, a change will be made.”
You’re sure about that are ya?
I wonder how much the consistent “losing” ways at every level of the farm system in recent years (until this year, really) have played into the “inexperience” and “trying too hard” that we’ve been seeing recently from the youth on offense?
Something else to learn at the big league level.
More has been made of the innings limits on the young arms due to previous years usage, but I think it applies to the increased games on offensive players too. The discliplines and focus needed over the 162 seems like has been wearing thin of late.
The talent is showing which is key, but further development with humility is needed to take another step forward. Missing Fraley and India more than I thought we would.
I’ve become a bit obsessed with a fact I mentioned above. I’m not mathematically gifted enough to run the statistical analysis, but there’s clearly a very strong negative correlation between the amount of money the Reds are playing each player and that player’s production for the Reds. If my information is accurate, the highest paid players in 2023 are as follows:
Votto ($25 million)
Moustakas (18)
Myers (7.5)
Griffey (3.6)
Newman (2.66)
Cessa (2.65)
Casali (2.5)
Weaver (2)
Senzel (1.95)
Farmer (1.75)
Greene (1.33)
Sims (1.26)
Maile (1.18)
Young (1.15)
Law (1)
Minor (1)
Vosler (1)
Dunn (.9)
All the other guys are making less than 800K.
To some extent I just find this pattern interesting, but I also think it illustrates the problem with saying the Reds just need to spend more money to get better. It’s not just that they need to money, it’s that they need to start spending it WISELY. When it comes to spending big money, they’ve made almost NO smart decisions for the past several years. And the fact that they’ve just committed to paying Bell for three more years, with almost no evidence that he’s capable of winning at the major league level other than the team having a very nice couple of months when a bunch of young players happened to be extremely hot, is just another reason to believe they’re not very good at figuring out how and when to spend money.
This isn’t an argument against spending money as a general rule, but it’s a “be careful what you wish for” argument with respect to this particular organization.
*…the amount of money the Reds are PAYING each player…
*…it’s not just that they need to SPEND money…
(When will this site start to allow editing?)
Editing would be nice… I’ve never actually seen a site that didn’t until this one
Average MLB salary is $4.22M. Doesn’t look like they are throwing money around. All this tells me is all their talent is in very young players.
Is that the average or the median? If it’s indeed the average, then it’s affected quite a bit by the enormous salaries at the top. Votto, Friedl, and Benson have an average salary of about $9 million.
@j one thing that is difficult to criticize the Reds about is their ability not to spend money. They’ve got that covered. Dick Williams spent a lot of money and unfortunately most of it unwisely. But it is very hard to spend money for free agents wisely.. Especially pitchers as we have seen. Better they be homegrown or trade for young pitchers who are under control. $10 million just doesn’t buy much in the market at this point. Mainly heartache.
Yep, one of the last good free agent signings was Sonny Gray, who I think signed three or four years at around 10M/year. He was a consistently good pitcher then and still is
A lot of folks here last winter used the Padres as a model small market team that spends indiscriminately. Why can’t we be more like them, they asked?
How are they doing with their 200+ M payroll?
And yet several other posters here wanted to sign Benintendi last winter for the 5/75 he got. How’s he doing? 91 OPS+, below league average, and SIGNED for 4 MORE YEARS.
So true. So the Reds are not only cheap but just plain aren’t smart. haha
It really is interesting how many of the big baseball contracts turn out to be big mistakes. The Reds have been somewhat dumb about how to spend money, but obviously they’re not alone. Even though it’s probably just a matter of being cheap, the Reds have actually looked “smart” to avoid some of those huge contracts for players who turned out to be duds.
I’m not sure if there’s an ideal solution, but if I were a team like the Reds I’d probably want to avoid those mega deals where you’re investing a huge chunk of the budget in one or two guys and hoping you aren’t getting the next Moose and Strasburg. Aside from cheap young talented players, I’d look for some middle-of-the-pack guys who can probably be counted on to be productive, but aren’t SO expensive that you’re unable to sign other useful players, and you won’t feel obligated to play them (or even keep them) if they turn out to be busts. Myers turned out to be a terrible signing, but if they were paying him $22 million I bet he’d still be starting for this team most days. So, as much as we’d all love to see a superstar or two join the team, it really may be best for the Reds to avoid those kinds of contracts as a general rule. I’d rather see three Sonny Grays or Wade Mileys than one Strasburg.
Of course, whether the Reds will actually be willing to spend $40 million on three Sonny Gray type players isn’t clear, but we really shouldn’t be hoping they’ll spend money just for the sake of spending it. I don’t ever want to see another Moose situation — especially when they’ve just committed to a manager who seems to think playing time and batting orders should be determined by salaries and handedness rather than actual performance on the field.
No baseball to not watch tonight because it’s too late for me after all. Postponed as expected.
My stepdaughter lives in east LA county near the San Bernadino county line. The border of their backyard is a concrete drainage “river” such as is seen so often in movies and TV shows based in SoCal. Just like on the TV, every time we have visited, the river has been virtually dry.
However, a couple of years back they sent us pics of that “river” running/ raging almost to overflow in the aftermath of a major winter storm. She said that was by far the worst they had ever seen it in a dozen or more years at that locale. I am wondering what it looks like today. Thankfully their lot is double deep from front to back with the house sitting at a normal offset from the street in front; but, mud from local runoff will probably be a big issue for them.
I missed the game, and might have missed an explanation somewhere in the story or chat thread but what happened to Hunter Green? Velo down? Missing spots? Walking too many? Trying out a new pitch? I mean geeze I know it’s his first game back with the team but looks like some kind of meltdown??