After dropping the first game of the doubleheader in the afternoon, the Reds needed to come from behind in the second game to earn a split on the day. Cincinnati rallied for two runs in the top of the 8th to tie the game up and then took the lead against Pittsburgh in the 10th. The Pirates couldn’t bring their free runner around and the Reds earned a doubleheader split and a series victory on Sunday night.
| Final | R | H | E |
|---|---|---|---|
| Cincinnati Reds (62-58) |
6 | 12 | 0 |
| Pittsburgh Pirates (53-65) |
5 | 9 | 0 |
| W: Diaz (4-4) L: Bido (2-3) SV: Duarte (1) | |||
| Statcast | Box Score | Game Thread | |||
Pittsburgh didn’t take their time to pounce on Luke Weaver and the Cincinnati Reds. Bryan Reynolds hit a 3-1 cutter that was middle-middle 428-feet for a solo home run to put the Pirates on top in the 1st. Andrew McCutchen followed with a walk and moved to third on a double by Jack Suwinski. Henry Davis came through with a sacrifice fly to pad the lead for the home team to 2-0.
Cincinnati got both runs back in the top of the 2nd inning with a 2-out rally. Henry Ramos doubled into right field and Will Benson followed with a walk. Luke Maile then came through with a 2-run double to tie things up.
Luke Weaver immediately gave up the lead when Liover Peguero hit a leadoff homer in the bottom of the inning. He would then strike out the next three batters to get out of the inning. Elly De La Cruz hit a 442-foot solo home run in the top of the 3rd to tie the game back up.
In the bottom of the 4th inning the Pirates went back to work, getting a double and back-to-back singles to bring in the go-ahead run before Luke Weaver recorded an out. He would rebound from there and retire the next two hitters, but with a lefty due up the Reds called on Sam Moll and he got the job done as he induced a ground out to end the inning and strand two runners.
The Reds got things going in the right direction in the 5th following a double play. Henry Ramos singled, Will Benson singled, and then Luke Maile walked to load the bases. After the final pitch to Maile, the Pirates dugout began yelling at the home plate umpire and it led to the manager, pitching coach, and bench coach all being ejected from the game. TJ Friedl lined out to end the inning as the Pirates held onto their 4-3 lead.
Ian Gibaut took over for Cincinnati in the bottom of the 7th inning. After picking up a strikeout to the first hitter he faced, Bryan Reynolds clobbered his second homer of the game to make it 5-3 for Pittsburgh.
The Reds got that run back in the top of the 8th rather quickly. Joey Votto led off the inning with a double to deep center. He took third base on a wild pitch and then he would score on a single from Henry Ramos with one out. TJ Hopkins then pinch ran for Ramos. Pittsburgh then made a pitching change to bring in a lefty to face Will Benson, but the Reds countered by calling Stuart Fairchild in to pinch hit for him. Hopkins took second base on a wild pitch and then scored when Fairchild hit a ground rule double that tied the game up.
Buck Farmer came out of the bullpen to start the bottom of the 8th inning and immediately ran into trouble. Henry Davis led off with an infield single and then Farmer walked Endy Rodriguez. He would rebound by striking out Liover Peguero on a fouled off bunt with two strikes. Cincinnati called on Alexis Diaz to try and put out the fire and he got a little bit of help from Luke Maile, who picked off Rodriguez at first base for the second out of the inning. Diaz then walked Jared Triolo to put two men back on the bases. That led to Pittsburgh calling on Ke’Bryan Hayes to pinch hit, but he grounded into a force out to end the inning.
After the Reds couldn’t push across the go-ahead run in the top of the 9th, it was up to Alexis Diaz to keep the Pirates off of the board in the bottom of the inning. He needed just two pitches to get the first out, but Bryan Reynolds battled him for seven pitches before striking out. Diaz needed six more pitches to get Andrew McCutchen out, but he’d get a fly out to end the inning and send the game to extras.
Cincinnati pinch ran Tyler Stephenson for Joey Votto to begin the 10th inning in a move that left the Reds with no players remaining on their bench. Christian Encarnacion-Strand hit a shallow fly ball to start the inning. TJ Hopkins blooped a single just over the second baseman into right field, but Stephenson could only get to third as he had to wait to see if the ball would be caught. Stuart Fairchild then hit a grounder to shortstop, but he beat out the relay throw to first that would have ended the inning and instead allowed Stephenson to score and put the Reds up 6-5.
Daniel Duarte was tabbed to pitch the bottom of the 10th inning. Andrew McCutchen began the inning at second base as the free runner. Duarte would strike out Jack Suwinski to start the inning. He then got a ground out, but McCutchen advanced to third base. He would be stranded there as Endy Rodriguez flew out to shallow center to end the game.
Key Moment of the Game
Daniel Duarte recording the final out of the game, stranding Andrew McCutchen on third base.
Notes Worth Noting
Daniel Duarte picked up his first big league save.
Henry Ramos took advantage of his start, going 3-3 with a walk, double, run, and an RBI.
The Cincinnati Reds are 62-58. Last season they were 62-100. The odds seem good that they will top last year’s win total.
Elly De La Cruz reached 10 home runs and 15 stolen bases in the first 58 games of his career.
The only player to debut since 1900 and get there faster was Barry Bonds (57 games). pic.twitter.com/KeMinSZ48d
— ESPN Stats & Info (@ESPNStatsInfo) August 13, 2023
Up Next for the Cincinnati Reds
Cleveland Guardians vs Cincinnati Reds
Tuesday August 13th, 6:40pm ET
Logan Allen (5-5, 3.55 ERA) vs Graham Ashcraft (6-7, 4.95 ERA)
The guys fought back for a well needed win. The season was circling around the hole ready to go down and they at least for today, came back to give us some reason to still hope there is a chance for a postseason. On to Cleveland. At this point just win series and hope for the best.
I won’t say the first half magic is back, but it did show up in that second game.
Way to go Reds!
I will need stronger heart medicine if this is how the last 42 games are going to play out! Great job by Duarte!
Honestly, I was very close to a Clete for the rest of the season!
Finally, please, please please, NO MORE WEAVER!
Really. This continues to be the problem with the Reds rotation….Luke Weaver. The Reds’ failure to fine a replacement before the trading deadline will continue to haunt them. Almost every time he pitches, he tasks the bull pen.
A day off between today and Tuesday’s game at Cleveland (Ashcraft and Abbott). Then, another day off before the weekend series at home against the Blue Jays (Williamson next Friday night). With the days off, Weaver would start again next Saturday against Toronto.
Maybe a week until Hunter Greene returns (August 20th?). Maybe starting next Sunday against the Blue Jays? Ben Lively’s return is unknown; maybe before the end of August? Lodolo probably won’t be back until after September 1.
They almost always win when he pitches, Dennis.
Yes but if you kill the BP, it hurts other games.
I know. I was trying to be witty.
Winning is the goal.
Maile picking that guy off 1st bailed out Diaz & saved the day. Start Maile, DFA Weaver, move up Benson and move up Cruz ahead of the strugglers. Stuey fan,but I’d start Ramos over him too and use Stuey as a defensive replacement/pinch runner.
These things arent controversial or just my opinion. Just watch the games and react accordingly. I really don’t get Bell or Krall?
Don’t think I would waste a roster spot on a third catcher. Maile has certainly proven himself able to handle backup duties and I’m not sure he hasn’t surpassed TySteve. CES has taken the DH-1B duties originally planned for Tyler so that 4td catcher isn’t needed.
3rd not 4td
“The Cincinnati Reds are 62-58. Last season they were 62-100. The odds seem good that they will top last year’s win total.”
Let’s hope so. 🙂
we live to fight another day. will we be able to score enough runs at gabp to go on a little run now?
A much needed series win. Weaver did the Weaver again, and we still got the “W.” Nice job hitting, especially the bottom of the order. WTG, Ramos. Diaz and Duarte both sharp. Duarte went right after them, and no walks! Guardians and Jay’s next. Brewers heading into two tough road matches while the Cubs get two home cupcakes. We MUST take advantage at home.
Big win. Still four back of Milwaukee in the lost column and one back of the Cubs. Got to start playing well if they want a shot.
we topped the win total for 2022 which is saying something. I thought we would be in the same category as the Royals and A’s this year.
Glass half full view. As painful as it’s been since the trade deadline, this team has overachieved.
The upcoming 5-game home stand for the Reds is crucial as the Brewers, Cubs & Marlins all have tough series starting Tuesday!
You and me both.
Also, make Weaver a leaver (DFA or option to minors) NOW.
Cannot allow the pen to get killed every time he pitcher.
Leadership WAKE UP
Just to pick up on my point from the game thread: Weaver has as many losses (4) as Cessa and Greene, and only one more than Abbott. Ashcraft has three more than Weaver. His W/L record has to be one of the weirdest stats ever.
Someday maybe we’ll get to the bottom of why he’s been continuing to pitch for a team that’s still fighting for a playoff spot. There has to be a good story behind this.
Perhaps he’ll finally get designated with the returns of Lodolo or Greene? Then again…
Ashcraft’s had a weird season too. Top 15 NL pitcher except for 2 months where he had to be the worst in the NL unless it was Weaver
Luis Castillo was painfully bad in 2021 for the first two months, then shook it off. Sandy Alcantera on the Marlins was pretty lame the first part of this year. Whoever figures out why this happens will make a lot of money.
Cubs at home against Sox then Royals. Perhaps not so tough…
Cubs versus ChiSox is a rivalry series for bragging rights in Chicago!
Never discount the Stupid Cubs ability to screw up what appears to be a sure thing!
Bingo. Cubs can screw it up with the best of ‘em.
I lived on the Southside for quite a few years. The series between the Sox and Cubs is a bloodfest, at least that’s what it used to be. To some in Chicago, more important than the playoffs.
SF is the team I’m targeting, but of course we have to win our share. SF has lost 6 of 8 including 0-2 vs Oakland
Tampa 3
@ Atlanta 3
@ Philly 3
Atlanta 3
Reds 3
@ SD 4
@ Cubs 3
Nice to see Ramos getting it done with his start. It would be nice to see him stick this time around.
What’s the latest on Antone, Greene, and Santilla, India, and Fraley? We need some fresh arms and bats. We’ve harping on Bell, rightfully so, but probably overlooked that we’ve been short handed all year.
Antone has been put on hold for a while. No pushing him if his arm isn’t right.
Legumina may be ready soon.
Santillan is still struggling at AAA.
Vladimir Gutierrez may be here first. He is being groomed to pitch in relief, recovering from TJ surgery last year.
India, may not be back until September. He is to rest it (his heel) completely for two weeks, then start to work out again.
Fraley, ditto. But may be back sooner than India.
Greene is getting ready, may be in Cincy next Sunday against the Blue Jays (fingers crossed).
Whether the bull pen is really tired, or just you can’t use everybody every two days.
Thank you much David.
Antone pitched tonight. One inning, 2Ks, no runs.
Really? The last thing I read was that his arm was stiff after his last appearance, and they were going to rest him for a few days.
I guess that is “good news!”.
Thanks
Almost every team can claim to be shorthanded for long stretches of the season. That’s part of baseball. If losing Jake Fraley means you suddenly can’t score runs on a regular basis, something is seriously wrong with the offense.
We are a small market team. Can you name any small market team missing top two SO and top two RBI bats and still dong well?
Fraley had 13 RBI and scored 11 runs for the entire month of July plus the two games he played in August. If you go from first place into a tailspin because you lose a player like that, you’ve got some serious problems no matter what the size of the market is. Teams need to be able to cope with those kinds of injuries without immediately falling apart.
If the rest of the guys are striking out somewhere between 10-20 times per game, one guy ain’t gonna matter.
Can you name a small market team that was in first place in mid July, looked like they’d have no problem making the playoffs, had an offense that looked really good from top to bottom (such that it could even afford to have its highest OPS guy hitting 8th!), lost two guys like India and Fraley, and then immediately become very bad? I can’t.
RS – exactly. Losing Fraley doesn’t explain why all the other guys are striking out so much, aren’t getting hits with runners in scoring position, rarely walk, aren’t stealing bases when it makes sense to steal, aren’t able to move a runner over or hit a sac fly, etc. Can’t blame all these things on the loss of Fraley or a couple starting pitchers.
One guy matters when he gets a key hit. The Reds are missing, besides Fraley who is their top RBI man, India, Lodolo and Greene. So their starting 2nd baseman and two of their presumptive top-of-the-rotation starting pitchers. It’s true that injuries are part of baseball, but they still impact the team. Additionally, the Reds’ lineup is dependent upon rookies who–like most rookies–are learning the MLB game and are streaky.
What’s this ‘lost one guy’ stuff? India. Fraley. Lively. All three lost. Using the fingers on just one hand, I count three starters lost over the same time period, and still out.
Can you name a team–large market or small–in first place at the AS break that was as reliant on rookies as the Reds are? Few others, I bet.
Exactly. You can’t name any team since that’s never happened
Are you saying that the Reds are not reliant on EDLC, McClain, Steer, Benson and Abbot? Or was I wrong about first place? My recollection was that thy were, but if it was 2nd place, they had been in first recently and weren’t far behind.
This is a weird debate. Two of you seem to be debating with each other even though I think you actually agree. And nobody is addressing the basic point I made, which is that the Reds as a team have been slumping — not just rookies — and it can’t all be attributed to the fact that India and Fraley are missing. The loss of those two guys can’t explain why Votto, Stephenson, Newman, and Senzel all stopped producing. They can’t explain why the team seems much more reluctant to steal bases lately in situations where it makes sense to steal. They can’t explain why the whole team seems to be striking out at an alarming rate and has so much trouble just putting the ball in play when a sacrifice fly or grounder to second base would score a run. Etc. etc.
I’m aware rookies are streaky, but the point I’m making is that this is a team-wide problem, and it isn’t just in one area, that actually started before Fraley was hurt. There were several games when the Reds struggled to score with Fraley in the starting lineup. He played in Milwaukee, for example. His presence didn’t help the other guys hit.
Is Bell to blame for everyone’s slump? Of course not. But he makes matters a lot worse by using lineups that ignore who’s slumping and who’s hot, making boneheaded substitutions, not calling for hit-and-runs, not giving any take signs to guys who should definitely be taking a pitch, not playing guys when they’re hot because it’s their “scheduled day off,” etc. etc. He can’t be blamed for everything, obviously, but there’s no reason for this team to suddenly be bad at scoring runs just because two guys are missing. They have several guys who are capable of producing much more than they have been. When you have one of your best hitters hitting 8th, immediately after a guy who’s been slumping badly all year and has a tendency to hit into double plays, and that good hitter is rarely coming to the plate in situations where he can knock in any runs, you just can’t say “well, this is because Fraley and India are out, and they’re missing some starting pitchers.” It’s happening because the manager is basically guaranteeing it’s going to happen on a regular basis. And that’s just one example of Bell adding to the team’s offensive woes. There are plenty of others.
You’re right, J. I misread LT’s comment. I’ll plead Monday morning as the cause. I hoped that people wouldn’t notice or would think I was responding to someone else, but no such luck.
J: if, as you correctly say, the slump is team-wide, it follows that it would be hard to construct a lineup that maximizes the value of the guys who aren’t slumping. It seems that almost everyone has a good game every few days, so I would suppose it would be hard to predict who is going to be productive for any given game. The base stealing issue puzzles me, too, though very recently it seems to be having a resurgence. One factor is obviously that guys aren’t getting on base as often. Larkin commented a while ago that other teams were starting to do everything they could to contain the Reds’ running game, but I’m not sure that I buy that. Maybe they’re reluctant to run themselves out of run-scoring opportunities now that they’re finding it harder to score runs in the first place?
I think a lot of guys are just trying too hard to be heroes instead of just trying to work the count, walk if possible, move a runner over, make solid contact, etc. And maybe some of them are starting to get conservative on the bases because they’re worried about making mistakes in a playoff run. I don’t blame Bell for all of this, but it’s his team and he has some power to influence these things if he wants to. And when a few guys are really slumping, that’s when you have to think especially carefully about lineups. You can’t keep leading off with a guy who hasn’t been regularly getting on base for a few weeks just because you believe he might be a good leadoff hitter someday. And you don’t bury one of your most consistent hitters at #8 when your team is struggling to score runs. No winning manager in the history of baseball has ever done that. It’s especially crazy when you lose Fraley and STILL have Benson hitting at the bottom, with a slumping Stephenson and a .200 hitting Votto ahead of him. It’s just nuts.
We gotta stack series wins.That’ll be our saving grace. Approach each 3 game series with equal importance. Split any 4 game road series. Winning subtotal of those games. Sweep an ocassional 3 game series.
End of season results will qualify your team record. 85 to 87 wins should be the thresh
0
old floor. Play add on wins to secure a better seed.
A nice surprise this morning. After a pleasant day and meal with my family, I didn’t want to read that the Reds lost a doubleheader and series in the Burgh. Good news, a late rally and series win.
I hope than today is the day that the reds cut ties with Weaver. With both Monday and Thursday off. the reds can skip a starter {Weaver) and Greene will be in the rotation soon. If they dfa Weaver, they can continue to use Duarte in relief, until Greene returns. The reds Then will need to make the decision as to which reliever will go. Duarte might seem like the obvious answer since he has options left. However. we are in a race for a wild card, and if Duarte is pitching well, then another reliever would have to go. Not an easy decision.
I frankly think Sims is hurt, as he has not been effective lately. I am surprised his back has held out this long…chronic back injury did him in last year.
He may go on the DL to open a 26 man slot.
They will decide what to do with Weaver after Greene pitches Tuesday night, to make sure Greene is ready for the 20th.
They could use Weaver as a long man. Some time next week — after the off days have played out — they have to decide what to do with Ben Lively’s turn.
Lively got roughed up on last night, at least on paper. However, it looks like (not having seen the video) that he gave up a lot of ground-ball singles, and then a guy homered. He hit about 35 pitches in the inning, and they lifted him. I don’t know how much we can really read into that performance.
Duarte was the 27th man callup for the double header only.
I realize that Duarte was the 27th man, but if they dfa Weaver, he could be promoted to the 26th man.
2022 Reds won his 62 game on October 4th!! Yikes….
This was a very tight win over Pirates, I felt they went to lose again but the resilence arose again…This Reds team is really unpredictable…When you think they are unstoppable start a losing streak and when you think they are dead then start winning…
Please, don’t let Weaver start anymore, that’s enough …
I shut the TV feed off after the 2-run blast so my wife and I could watch something else. I checked later and saw the 5-5 tie and then tuned back in for extras. Glad Stephenson was able to hustle enough to score and provide the slimmest of margins in the 10th. Duarte definitely bowed his back for that save.
Need the down day after that cardiac win. Guardrails games are going to be interesting. At least we throw Abbott and Ashcraft at them.
All those who predicted another 62 win season, and there were several, should have their typing fingers ready to admit their error while their crow is on the bbq. I hope Doug has the bandwidth to handle all the nay sayers.
Whether they make playoffs or not this season, the team is clearly on the right track. If people had been told at season’s beginning that the Reds would play most of the year without Green and Lodolo, and a sizable chunk without Ashcraft, win total predictions would have been in the 40s-50s for the year. It’s been a remarkably successful season so far, no matter how it finishes.
Pulling for the Reds to get a playoff berth, but no matter what, it has been an exciting and successful season.
@Doc,Have to agree with you. Have also enjoyed watching the youngsters play and grow. If, and that is a big If , management invest some of the money that will fall off the books this year back into the team it could really provide a nice competitive window for the team and fans.
I agree. I will confess to brief periods of morbid depression during the current (?) bad stretch, but this season has been surprising and fun.
“If people had been told at season’s beginning that the Reds would play most of the year without Green and Lodolo, and a sizable chunk without Ashcraft, win total predictions would have been in the 40s-50s for the year.”
True. The “miracle” this year is having so many rookies do so well so fast. That’s amazing and unheard of.
Abbott, and Ashcraft for the next series, then hopefully Williamson Greene. They can run out AA and GA for the next 2 but by the 22nd the Reds are going to need a 5th starter. Lively got lit up in his rehab in AAA 6 R in .2 IP, it seems safe to say he’s not ready to come back. So it’s back to Weaver, Richardson, Stoudt, or Phillips. We could have traded for a starter at the deadline, but I guess this is better?
Yes, a massive failure of vision in not trying to acquire a better starter, and this was when Lively was still “healthy”.
Weaver has largely been the weak link all year. Despite some rough outings, Williamson continues to get better. He’s learning and improving.
Williamson has been impressive, he’s looking like that top 100 prospect that we traded for. He has 4.33 ERA on the year, with a 2.89 ERA in his last 7 outings.
Failure of vision or failure of a deal to materialize that offered a materially better starter than those we had for a reasonable return? We tend to be skeptical to the point of cynicism about the Reds, but sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
Maybe the most important takeaway from the 2nd game win is that the rump end of the Reds lineup/ bench did most of the heavy lifting. With the returns of India and Fraley uncertain this was an encouraging sign Bell has material to work with. The onus is on him to figure out how.
It was one game Jim. I want the team to make the playoffs.
Me too; but every game counts the same. There are no premiums added for who you beat or how.
Bell needs to get off his high horse of saying nothing is going to change and accept that some very significant changes have happened with his everyday lineup in the last two weeks; and, it is going to be at least 2 weeks and almost certainly more before those guys are back.
He has to find the absolute best way to work with what he has and not just the best way to plug the available players into his preset system.
Ramos was a spark Sunday night. The guy is 32 years old, has been around the block, and literally across the seas playing baseball. At AAA this year his OPS vs LH pitching was 1.036. Trust his experience. Don’t bury him down in the lineup. While nobody expects him to OPS at the same level versus MLB pitching as in AAA; use him like a guy with an .800+ OPS vs MLB LH pitching would be used until he fails to get the job done. Don’t bury him down in the lineup.
Maile looks and plays like a #1 catcher right now while Stephenson looks lost on both sides of the ball. Use Maile as the #1.
Get Benson higher in the order vs RH pitching instead of worrying what is going to happen if an LH pitcher comes into the game for the other team. What happened last night is Fairchild came off the bench and got the job done in 2 of the most important PAs of the game from Benson’s lineup spot.
And Etc.
The idea that lineups don’t matter that much is becoming more and more crazy in my view and hurting this team. We’ve got guys hitting at the bottom of the order hitting well getting less ABs than guys at the top hitting poorly. The idea that moving these guys around in the order can somehow hurt them mentally is just crazy. Lineups can and should be changed on a regular basis. Getting your best hitters at the top of the lineup back to back with the most ABs will score you the most runs. That’s not old school or new school. That’s just common sense school. If you look back and study the Big Red Machine even Sparky did that with the “Great Eight” so there’s no reason not to do it with these guys. They’ve been playing baseball all their lives. They can handle it.
Jim: I didn’t see the full statement of Bell’s that contained the “nothing is going to change” quote. Did he indicate what he meant? Because I can imagine several ways of interpreting it, e.g: “we’re going to keep playing the young guys,” or “we’ll continue playing aggressively.” I wouldn’t take exception to either of those.
Someone the other day mentioned a 6 man rotation, and I’m not a fan of that because I want my 5 best pitchers to get the most innings, and would be even happier if we had a team of Bauers who wanted to go every 4 days.
The thing I was thinking about with a 6 man rotation is we’ll have 3 LHP in the rotation, and could have 3 RHP’s as well. If our 25 rotation was:
Abbott, Greene, Lodolo, Ashcraft, Williamson, Lowder
With the rotation being L, R, L, R, L, R, and all having an extra day of rest, it seems like it could open up some unique options. If we are playing a team that is heavily dominated with LHB’s in the lineup, you could flip start days to run an extra LHP against that team, and vice versa. L, L, R, R, L, R
Also, the next day starter could serve as a built in long man if that days starter isn’t able to go long enough in his start. Yesterday we had the starter only cover 3.2 IP. In the 6 man scenario, the next days starter could have covered the 5.1 innings, or maybe 4.1 with a closer coving the final IP.
I still like the idea of the least amount of starters getting the most starts, but it is interesting to think about the possibilities.
I’m excited about this years team but also about how it sets us up for next year. Many of our young players are getting an opportunity to play at the major league level while still fielding a playoff contending team. Like many I hope we make the playoffs. It will be great experience for our young core.
Would love ownership to invest in a prime middle of the order bat and strengthen the bull pen. The game has changed in that the pen is routinely being asked to close out 3 innings a night. This is going on all over ML’s
Agreed Jim t. Looking forward to next year. Anything good that happens this year is gravy. Reds ownership had BETTER spend next year on positions you mentioned. With some serious spending, a year or thereabouts under this young teams belts, everyone back healthy and MUCH better luck regarding injuries no reason we can not be serious contenders for the division and beyond.
Reds IMO need to make changes to the roster right now.No need to have to call on gassed relievers or just bad ones right now.Buck nor Sims are showing nothing so make a switch.Get Phillips up here who picked up a save yesterday with 2+ innings and Legumina who faced 5 hitters and fanned 4 of them.Small sample yes AAA team yes but probably the best team in St.Paul.Just move Cruz in to a set up role and GIbault as well.Buck and Sims will not be back next year anyway.See what we do have and move on.Same with the bench.Joey plays less and less.Newman is released or sent down.Get Marte up here and let him play just to see.Half of this roster will not or should not be here next year so find out who will be.Bell proof the roster so we see only younger guys hungry for a job and not guys just trying to hang on.This cry of playoffs IMO had muddied the waters.Reds have holes to fill in the off season so lets find out how many we can’t fill from within.
Roger I have know issue bringing up some fresh arms but I’m not holding tryouts until the team is eliminated from the playoff race. Bell proofing the line up is not necessary he is playing the youngsters everyday.
“Bell-proofing the roster” seems like such a silly phrase for a team that’s overachieved so much. Before the current injuries and besides Votto, Bell is only playing the youngsters. And Votto has been the 3rd best hitter on the team. Anyone else over 28 only plays against lefty starters.
@WKU
Bell Played Moose too much…Krall released him.
Bell played Meyers too much….Krall released him.
Bell was playing Senzel too much…Krall demoted him.
This is what we mean by Bell-proofing a lineup.
We don’t know why Moose got the playing time he did, though there was speculation that it may have been mandated by the FO. Ditto Meyers, though he really didn’t play that much and had a previous track record that indicated that he would likely improve. Senzel was one of the best in the game against lefties for a time and was not a full-time starter. His playing time increased when India was injured, as one would expect given that he was a utility player. It’s possible that your entire theory is correct, but it’s equally possible that it is unfounded supposition and that there is no adversarial relationship in which Krall disapproves of Bell and has to get rid of players so he can’t use them.
Phillips picked up a multi-inning save yesterday because he followed a couple of rehabbing pitchers and the game was called in the sixth inning due to weather.
He got 7 outs and we can use guys like that.Respect your comment but not sure what the game being called or who else pitched has anything to with his performance.
My comment was not about his performance, but rather the fact that he wasn’t used in a “save” situation. The Reds are developing him as a starter. In fact, yesterday was the first time he’s been used in a relief role. In short, yesterday’s game doesn’t imply the Reds should quit developing Phillips as a starter and use him as a long reliever. It would be a very different role than he’s been prepared for.
I agree they are and should develop Phillips as a starter. It’s just when it gets down to crunch time down the stretch in a playoff race some “starters” might become relievers for the good of the team for a short time. That definitely could be the case if we’re actually IN the playoffs. Our pen will probably need some help.
Why wouldn’t Sims be back next year?
The Reds relieivers seem to always be worn out. Everyone is saying, bring up a relievers to replace them. The new relievers can pitch 2 days in a row and then they are tired. There’s no where this time of year to get fresh relief pitchers unless someone is coming off injury and then you must go easy on them. Starters are not allowed to pitch over 90 to 100 pitches per outing anymore, so unless a team has 1 or 2 pitchers who can pitch 2 to 4 innings every 2 to 3 days then the bullpen is likely to be always overworked. That’s the way baseball is now days.
“Starters are not allowed to pitch over 90 to 100 pitches per outing anymore”
I’d trust Ashcraft to go over 100 pitches, but that’s it with our current rotation. Weaver, no thank you. Abbot and Williamson, no because they’re rookies and we desperately need them lasting the entire season.
Even with Green and Lodolo return, it’ll take several starts to ramp them up.
The bullpen has been bad lately, clearly. Bell’s usage is the most frequent criticism of them wearning down, but I think it has as much to do with their collective inexperience. Here are their 2023 appearances to date along with their career appearance highs (using our top 7 relievers.)
Gibaut – 55 vs. 34 (2022)
Diaz – 54 vs. 59 (2022)
Farmer – 54 vs. 73 (2019)
Young – 52 vs. 40 (2021)
Sims – 50 vs. 47 (2021)
Cruz – 42 vs. 14 (2022, rookie)
Law – 37 vs. 61 (2016)
Farmer and Law are the only 2 that have experienced seasons of much higher usage than 2023 so far (and both were 4+ years ago), the rest are either approaching or over their seasonal high. Much has been made – and rightfully so – about the offensive rookies (and Abbott) hitting walls, as an explanation to the impact to the offense from earlier in the year. I’d propose a similar sentiment should apply to the bullpen. It’s lazy to just blame Bell for everything.
I personally blame Weaver and the all too consistent short starts by him and many others this year for it. We wouldn’t be in the position we are, if Bell hadn’t used the bullpen like he has to date. But to universally blame Bell for the bullpen “wearing down” isn’t very objective to me as the way it was constructed he was bound to depend on unproven arms this season regardless of how he used it game to game.
With all the walks/baserunners, it’s felt a bit like smoke/mirrors for a while and now it seems like lady luck has returned for payment.
I was hoping Santillan would return to form and/or Lively/Weaver would slot into the BP to give them some length/freshness.
We would have been out of this race 2 months ago without Abbott and Williamson, both developmental highlights of 2023 imo. But having 2 rookies in the rotation (plus Weaver) is going to stress a bullpen, regardless of the manager’s usage.
Agree. The only meaningful difference that may have helped is a middle reliever. They have one now in Kennedy.
I agree with the idea that even though these relievers generally only pitch one inning it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t add as much wear and tare on their bodies. Just getting up and throwing several days a week in the pen adds stress on the body. I’m not sure if/how much more throwing a few more innings in fewer outings would be worse. At least that would be less times throwing on the mound every day. At the very least I do believe having “long relievers” is wise.
I don’t know either, Melvin. But Brantley has referred to high-stress pitches and indicated that they take more out of a pitcher than, for example, warming up in the bullpen. Makes sense to me. I also don’t know how many other teams don’t have tired bullpens at this point in the season, but I bet it’s few, if any.
This is a great post Redgoggles. Yes, Weaver is one of the biggest culprits, but it’s really the starting rotation as a whole. Our “big three” hasn’t been on the mound most of the year together. They’ve all been on the IL, some for significant time. I’m a huge fan of Green, but even when he’s pitching great, he doesn’t go deep into games. We’ve had to heavily rely on rookie pitchers, and they can’t go deep into games (or they won’t be finishing the year).
Krall used bandaides and rolled the dice at the beginning of the year with the starting rotation. I don’t blame him for this; we were supposed to stink. But Krall knew what he had in Weaver at the trading deadline, and little depth in the minors. Not bringing in a starting pitcher was a mistake.
He also should have known that he could use a couple fresh arms in the pen. The last couple of weeks have shown hints of bullpen fatigue.
I do think the overall BP depth is developing……the difference between Duarte last night and Karcher earlier in the year is pretty significant. Just like Greene/Lodolo over Weaver/Lively (fingerscrossed.)
I agree the depth is developing, but some of the guys we’ve relied on all year aren’t getting it done. Hopefully just a blip, and the group as a whole returns to first half production.
@ Jim Walker.You are 100% correct in in that Bell must find a way to use what he has rather then finding a way to fit them in to his system.You also mentioned in prior thread that now Krall has constructed the roster with players that are either infielders or outfielders minus Steer but not both.Krall is starting to put his mark on this team with that move and the purging the roster of vets.Tells me that Krall had to extend Bell not because he wanted but had too.He knows what Bell does well and doesn’t do well and he has fixed a couple of the things he doesn’t like by constructing the roster to stop them.He has 2 vets left and only 1 player that has played in the majors in the infield or outfield in Steer.Kennedy in the pen now as the long guys helps this one inning per joke if Bell will use him and if they bring up Phillips it gets better.Thanks Jim for pointing out some things most miss.Krall ain’t done yet.
“Tells me that Krall had to extend Bell not because he wanted but had too.He knows what Bell does well and doesn’t do well and he has fixed a couple of the things he doesn’t like by constructing the roster to stop them.”
That is some extreme conjecture. I mean, I understand some of you not liking Bell, but this is next level silly sometimes.
Signing David Bell to a three year extension at this point in the season has Big Bob written all over it.
You can’t know that. Krall’s stock is at an all time high. I just don’t believe that extension happens without Krall being for it.
Here is what strains the credibility for me of Bell’s signing not being driven from higher up the food chain than Krall.
To believe Krall was the driver, we have to also accept that in the middle of the run up to the trade deadline Krall felt it was time to do the extension of Bell and dedicated some portion of his personal time and resources to the extension. In addition, he would have presumably use the time and resources of other folks under his supervision to assist in evolution, negotiation and drawing of the contract.
All of this took place in the run up to the trade deadline when they were also in the middle of a hot playoff race that required day to day attention???
I definitely respect your opinion Jim, but that still seems like an awfully big stretch. We just don’t know the circumstances. We don’t know if that has been in the works for over a month, and Bell finally says “I’ll accept your offer Krall”. I doubt it happed that way, but it’s just as likely.
I just don’t believe it’s likely Krall was forced to extend him. But the main thing I was referring to from the reply to Roger above was the idea that Krall somehow has to Bell-proof the lineup. There’s just zero merit/support to that.
Well of course these are all opinions of both you and me and everyone else. Big Bob has said in the past more or less he’s a hands on owner. He’s said that when he goes into baseball meetings he tells everyone what he thinks should be done and if there are no strong objections he gets his way. That’s more or less a direct quote from the past. Krall has been making cautious common sense moves within the last year or so. The move to extend David Bell at this point in the season, for three years no less, is not common sense. Why? What would be the urgency to do it and for three years? Why not wait until we see how the season plays out? Are they afraid some other team is going to snatch him up? lol I can see it if he were a Sparky Anderson type. Bell has been here for five years and basically hasn’t won anything or at least very little. He’s just had a couple of good months mostly because of several rookies exceeding expectations pretty much all at once. No one knows for sure but I doubt Krall is behind it. He’s just afraid to show any kind of disagreement with Big Bob because when dealing with Big Bob that wouldn’t be job security. lol He’s a very vindictive owner in my view even with Reds fans.
To Melvin: Agree there’s many options on both sides. And I very much agree Bob has been too involved in past baseball decisions. We have actual evidence of this happening. But that’s been a number of years ago. For better or worse (mostly better) I think this mostly stopped during the Dick Williams era of being in control.
You have two questions on Bell’s extension: 1) why announce it now; and 2) why three years?
1) Why not? As I said above, it’s possible Krall likes Bell as a manager. I do for the most part. Many on here do. They could have been working on an extension for the last month. If they finally agreed on it and signed the paperwork, why not announce it? Your question is based on prejudice due to your feelings on Bell. Consider if you liked Bell and thought he was doing a good job, would you question the decision to announce?
2) I understand the pushback on the timing, but not the pushback on the number of years. It seems rare that a manager would get offered less than three years.
I’ll never understand why people get so caught up in this Krall vs. Ownership debate. They’re part of the same organization. They aren’t bitter adversaries fighting for control. Krall is in the position because Ownership wants him there. If Krall deserves credit for being brilliant and figuring out clever ways to undermine the owner and manager, then the owner deserves credit for hiring such a brilliant GM and ignoring all the things the GM has been doing to undermine him.
We seem to have this bias where every smart decision is Krall’s and every bad decision is out of his hands. I don’t buy it. As far as I’m concerned, they’re all part of the same team and they’re all responsible for the good and the bad. Krall might not have been the leading advocate for Bell’s extension, but he didn’t quit over it, and HIS reputation is now on the line. This is HIS extension as far as the outside world is concerned, and he’s apparently okay enough with this to stick around and accept responsibility. This tells me something.
@J, well said.
very well stated J
The friction probably comes in due to the fact that we have a crazy hands on owner who doesn’t know what he’s doing and Krall has to try and tip toe around to do a good job despite that.
J: I doubt those in the know believe it was a Nick Krall who gave the extension. The man is in his 40s and has a very bright future ahead of him and any ball club would be happy to have him. I can’t think of another general manager in Major League Baseball that I’d rather have in charge. Regardless what Bell does, Kralls reputation will be solid.
Unlike the other sports, the general manager of these teams is a thousandfold as important as the field manager. Certainly it’s not the same in professional basketball or football. We have a good end of this deal fellows.
For whatever it’s worth to you Roger I do agree with you in that Krall has to work on “Bell proofing” the roster at times. I don’t know that something like that is so unusual anyway. That’s kind of the job of a GM to give the manger the players who he thinks the manager should have and it’s the manager’s job to get the most out of what he’s been given. What does make it a little unusual is the relationship between Daivd Bell, his dad Buddy Bell, and Big Bob. David Bell even said when first taking the job that he wanted an office close to the front office to be more involved in the player decisions. There seems to be, in the opinions of some including mine, that there is friction there. If Krall is “taking charge” more than I’m all for it. I just doubt Big Bob is giving him free rein to do so. At least not yet. It would seem to me that Krall is slowly gaining more confidence from the owners though.
This might have been buried up higher, but for those that don’t know what Bell-Proofing is:
Bell Played Moose too much…Krall released him.
Bell played Meyers too much….Krall released him.
Bell was playing Senzel too much…Krall demoted him.
This is what we mean by Bell-proofing a lineup.
I definitely respect your opinion Jim, but that still seems like an awfully big stretch. We just don’t know the circumstances. We don’t know if that has been in the works for over a month, and Bell finally says “I’ll accept your offer Krall”. I doubt it happed that way, but it’s just as likely.
I just don’t believe it’s likely Krall was forced to extend him. But the main thing I was referring to from the reply to Roger above was the idea that Krall somehow has to Bell-proof the lineup. There’s just zero merit/support to that.
ignore – posted in wrong spot
Hmmm.
My hunch is that Krall was behind moving The Chad, Vosler, Reynolds and Strickland out of reach.
Bell certainly showed a proclivity for playing them all.
And Newman as well.
Bringing up 3 OFs with Steer moving to the IF and 3B instead of Newman seems as much a Bull decision as Bell’s.
“Bell-proofing” sounds pretty harsh but there’s some thought behind it.
Sure, Bell has been playing the rookies…because The Chad, Vosler, Reynolds and Myers are gone.
So, again: why were Newman, Vosler, Myers, Reynolds, Minor, etc. on the roster in the first place? Are we really imagining a scenario in which Krall was saying “I refuse to trade for a guy like Newman or Minor, and I refuse to add a pricey free agent veteran like Myers because Bell will insist on playing them way too often,” but he was *ordered* to make those specific trades and sign those specific players against his will? (And he didn’t quit even though he’s apparently not really the GM?) But then when they’re cut or demoted, somehow this is Krall finally getting to be in control and sneakily managing to get rid of all the players he was forced to add against his will?
Isn’t it also possible that Krall (with ownership’s approval) made some bad acquisitions, Bell felt obligated to play those guys because they were players the organization had gone out of its way to acquire (sometimes at significant cost), and when it became painfully obvious that it no longer made sense to keep those guys, Krall (with ownership’s approval) demoted or DFA’d them? Doesn’t that scenario make more sense?
The Reds gave Nick Krall a beggar’s budget. Instructed him to get the finances balanced, and he did. Most of the pickups Krall made, or what you would refer to as bad trades, happened to occur in March right before the season started. My guess, and yes it’s only a guess, is there were a few scraps of meat to work with before the season started so he went dumpster diving. At that point in the man went out to reinforce the team the best he could. Now the Reds are bustling with a young talent, and there’s no reason to pick up those stragglers anymore. I doubt you see a repeat of this anytime soon. Only time will tell.
By the way you keep referring to Krall quitting. No one in these positions quits. If you quit, you don’t work again. He could gracefully, retired and come back after season or two. That seems to be how it is done. Quitting is the last thing he can do and the only thing he can do to subvert his career.
@Harry>> We might disagree on the person but 1 of the OF call ups was about getting an alternate CF once it became clear they did not want Senzel to be that guy.
Why CF reinforcement? Much of Freidl’s “breakout” in the 1st half was driven by his performance vs LH pitching. Per Fangraphs, he had an incredible .940 OPS vs *LH pitching* from opening day through June 30 and an overall OPS of .865 for that period. Yes, an incredible reverse split with is OPS vs LH pitching .087 higher than his OPS vs RH pitching. However, from July 1 through the present he has a .546 OPS vs LH pitching and an overall OPS of .661 (.695 OPS vs RHP for this period).
I think Ramos called up because they wanted another leftie bat vs RH pitching.
The real headscratcher for me is why Hopkins and why not Barrero who could play anywhere in the OF, middle IF, and presumably also 3B. And I think this is because somebody wanted Steer out of the OF as much as possible and also did not want people bouncing all around the field.
That’s a plausible scenario if we imagine that Krall and Bell are never in communication, that Bell has no influence on decision making.
That may be true, but seems unlikely.
Even if Krall, however inexperienced, was assembling low cost veteran Chads or possible Bensons, there still came a point where those guys weren’t cutting it and the rookies were unexpectedly performing at a higher level.
Bell clearly kept playing them until he couldn’t.
Maybe Krall, with a little more distance from the dugout and clubhouse, was more comfortable separating himself from his earlier acquisitions.
We did see a hint of this in 2022 when Barrero got leveraged in at SS and RLN favorite Farmer was unhappily moved to 3B.
This might have been Bell’s inspiration, but I doubt it.
Obviously, these are Krall’s acquisitions, but they all fit Bell’s fascination with shuffling roles, which either Krall shared or he did his best to accommodate.
He has shown the same reluctance to move on from a Chad or a Strickland, though.
Jim…I think we are on the same track here. I think the moves were interrelated…move on from Senzel, move Steer out of the OF and India’s injury…rather than his trade….opened the door.
I think Friedl’s drop is no doubt from 1. Playing over his head somewhat and being slowly banged up. With Fraley out, I’ve got no issue of playing Fairchild, I’m just not convinced we’ll see the same production.
Legging out an inning ending double play to get in the winning run last night was great, but hardly heroic.
I think the Reds and Bell remain confused about what to do with Barrero. I’d rather have Friedl or SF in CF.
Happy to hear he’s hitting in AAA but he’s not going to get that consistent playing time in MLB. Bagging Senzel removes some of the redundancy that I keep referring to.
I think Hopkins was only intended to be up briefly because no one understood the severity of India’s injury..which is a problem in its own right. SF was stepping in for Fraley and calling up Ramos was a fun, if not good, move.
Not good to have India and Fraley out, but it sure clears things up and likely will reduce some of the Bell shuffle.
Let Steer settle back in at 3B. Despite his willingness to drive the team bus, he seems to get in a groove when he’s in one consistent spot.
All of which raises the question of what to do with Marte….
He may be the 2024 version of CES, twisting in the wind while Krall figures out what to do.
Sorry, I’m blabbing on and not proof reading:
Krall has NOT “ shown the same reluctance to move on from a Chad or a Strickland, though.”
Maybe it might be good to see what Steer can do at 2B with McLain and EDLC playing so well at SS and 3B.
I like having EDLC at third.
His height, range, reach and throwing arm offer a lot.
McLain seems to play well at SS.
So that could mean Steer at 2nd. Not sure how good a fit that is.
Bell, of course, seems set.
I should have read your post, J, before I wrote mine above. Well-stated.
Pete – I assume the reason GMs don’t abruptly quit is that they aren’t forced by owners to do a bunch of terrible deals that they expect to reflect badly on themselves when they flop. If I’m a young GM with a good reputation, and my boss tells me I’m required to make a bunch of deals that seem like terrible ideas to me, and will ultimately make me look bad as the GM who made the deals, I’m not hanging around for multiple years in that job trying to figure out clever ways to undo all the bad deals I’ve been forced to make. I’m leaving that job and going to work for an organization where the GM actually gets to be a GM and isn’t simply there to undo the owner’s bad trades and free agent signings. I don’t believe that’s what Krall has been doing for the last couple years, which is why I think he’s still very happy to have the job.
Good point again JIm.Guess I just want to believe Krall had nothing to do with Bell’s extension and am reaching for signs to say he wasn’t.
I respect all of you, but I honestly don’t care who made the decision to extend Bell. We are, once again, managing a good and civil conversation about, mostly, baseball.
I think Krall has been showing himself to be a shrewd baseball man. I may be his biggest fan on here and extending Bell is not consistent with everything else he’s done. It looks like the “old” Reds to me and that’s not a good thing.
He is building a juggernaut of an organization and the deeper you look into it, the more it becomes evident. It’s amazing how good these minor-league teams are playing. I think it is only the beginning. If he agreed to keep David Bell on board as the price of maintaining the trains running on schedule, I can live with it.
It would be nice if we didn’t have to face Ohtani next week.
https://www.yardbarker.com/mlb/articles/angels_have_concerning_shohei_ohtani_status_update/s1_127_39128340?utm_source=mb&utm_medium=email&mb_edition=20230814&mb_loc=left_h
The Angels have imploded since the deadline. Ohtani is not going to re-sign there, and most likely will be a Dodger. Ohtani is not going to risk injuring his arm, just before he figures to cash in on a $400+ million contract, in what looks like a hopeless cause for the Angels.