The Cincinnati Reds led 4-1 entering the 8th inning. Then the bullpen coughed up the lead and in the 9th they coughed up the tie as Miami jumped in front 5-4. Cincinnati’s offense couldn’t get much going after a 3-run 4th inning that had homers from Spencer Steer and Christian Encarnacion-Strand.
| Final | R | H | E |
|---|---|---|---|
| Miami Marlins (60-56) |
5 | 8 | 1 |
| Cincinnati Reds (60-57) |
4 | 10 | 0 |
| W: Scott (6-4) L: Diaz (3-4) SV: Robertson 17 | |||
| Statcast | Box Score | Game Thread | |||
It’s a short wrap today. Life got in the way. Should be back to normal on Friday when the Reds take on the Pirates at PNC Park.
Up Next for the Cincinnati Reds
Cincinnati Reds vs Pittsburgh Pirates
Friday August 11th, 7:05pm ET
Andrew Abbott (6-3, 2.93 ERA) vs TBA
This wrap takes me back to the days of Milton and the Price Is Right loser horn.
Happy moving Doug. That’s hard work and tiresome.
It got the “ink” it deserved. Maybe a little more than it deserved.
The Reds are in trouble. For some reason this seems familiar. What year is it again? 😉
They learned ABSOLUTELY NOTHING from 2021
What a joke David Bell has become. The man has no sense of the bullpen and the new rules of baseball. He has cost the team at least 10 games this year.
More than that.
That would indicate you think this is a 70 win team then. Even missing their best starters for most of the season
When it rains, it pours, Reds fans.
I almost got mad after Reds lost this game… Really , really I didn’t think they went to lose today after 7 innings , 2 outs and Soler with Schumaker ejected, Reds leading 4-1… I could predict Arraez hitting a single or double because he was 0-8 in the series , I don’t know, but surrendering a 3-run homer to Bell to tie the game was overwhelming and afterwards the Bryan De la Cruz homer was catastrophic…
I don’t know what will happen in next games but right now the Reds look out of contention…
Diaz is NOT a closer. He allows too many walks and admits too many hits. His loss line speaks for itself. Until someone admits that the bullpen has cost many many leads this year nothing will get solved. And until David Bell stops over-managing. The lefty-righty thing faded away with the shift. Catch up.
Toughest loss of the season so far .. almost all the relievers will regress a bit as they’re gassed .. we’ll see if the young hitters can adjust .. see how Bell manages the remainder vs the stretch runs in ’20 and ’21 … here’s hoping the swoon is now and they get right by Sept with the reinforcements.
I think the reinforcements are going to take time to catch up. We don’t have that time to spare.
As I posted after the three-game Fiasco versus the National that this next series with the Marlins was the inflection point for the rest of the season. They were either going to start playing better vs the Marlins or the season was going to slip away… and it slipped away. They’re not going to be in contention any longer, they’ll slowly but surely start losing ground in the playoff chase and I’ll be surprised if they finish within five games of under .500. Bell is a far below average manager who is constantly making all the wrong decisions, hamstringing his teams chances of winning. The Reds are playing with 1 arm tied behind their back. He’s just throwing stuff against the wall and hoping something sticks. The way he manages is not based on what the play in the field actually is….it’s based on his preconceived notions as to how and when everyone should play and how he uses the bullpen Etc. Pulling Gibault in the 8th in that spot made no sense to me…he was throwing it well and you were up three with two outs and a guy on first base. But he couldn’t resist his tendencies to always default to the lefty lefty matchup regardless of how Gibault was pitching, even in a fairly low leverage situation, which then led to a much higher leverage situation with the next batter facing the lefty… and that matchup led to losing the game.
>>>Pulling Gibault in the 8th in that spot made no sense to me…he was throwing it well and you were up three with two outs and a guy on first base. But he couldn’t resist his tendencies
Yep. It is what it is. Three more years,..then the stooges will resign him, if I know them.
I was following the game on game day and was surprised when Gibault was pulled. You never know how effective relievers are on a certain day. The Marlins weren’t threatening. Bell isn’t the only guy who would make that call but we don’t have to like it.
@Mario>>> I stepped away from the TV screen in the top of the 8th after the 1st single to refresh my beverage. When I saw commercials on the screen as I came back, my first response was, yeah! Gibaut closed out the inning then I saw Moll taking his final warm ups and……
Yeah it was surprise for sure. This team has let several games slip away that I thought were in the bag.
Alexis Diaz has sucked for almost 2 months now. Put him on the IL or something because he is terrible….
Gee, I thought that Alex Diaz was a superstar? I mean, he was the only Red on the All Star team, wasn’t he?
Bell pushed all the buttons, but the Reds still lost. This is on the players. Newly acquired Sam Moll (was HE tired?) gave up the 3 run homer, against a left handed hitter, which was his job to get out?
The statistical hobgoblins of baseball have caught up with the Reds. The reality of the team is what they are, not what we wish they are.
You can blame Bell, Krall the Castellinis all you want. But it’s the players that play the game. The unpleasant reality is that they are just not that good, not in the same category as the Braves, for instance.
They may rally in a week or so, if they have determination and character. Or they just fade because they give up.
You’re right, Bell pushed the WRONG bullpen buttons… again
Yep. He’s been very lucky. He has trouble throwing strikes, and he’s always behind in the count. I’d rather have anyone come in from the bullpen than him.
Y’all have broken my sarcasm meter. Can’t tell if you’re being serious about Diaz.
Geez I had hoped they could tread water until Greene, and co come back. Their losing skid is getting out of hand. Not an easy, but also not a killer rest of the month. Crossing my fingers didn’t help against Miami, sorry Reds I’m out of ideas to help. Good Luck!
Greene’s minor league work not going so well. Too many walks and hits for the short innings he’s pitching.
Like many I’m concerned for our bullpen guys. Not just what is left of this season but next as well. I joked in the game thread about buying Tommy John surgeries in bulk but seriously this can’t be good for their arms. Next year should be the first year the team is “truly” competitive as in as possible WS run. We have some very good relievers and an A1 Closer. Starting to see more teams employ a middle reliever – something the Reds should consider and probably consider right now. Hate to see any ill effects of 2023 bleed into 2024 for the pen.
I’m able to enjoy this season for what I think it is – a building block for next year and beyond.
There was a stretch during this season where, in my opinion, Bell was making terrible decisions with the bullpen and the lineup, but they were winning. His decisions, as much as I disagreed with them, were working, though. That being said, one of the main points that many of us were making back then, and warning about, was that he is going to overtax the bullpen. We are now seeing the consequences.
Y’all that are constantly banging on Bell are so off base. Your post should read:
There was a stretch during the season where, per statistics, the team was pitching terribly, and as obvious as it was that Bell had little to no choices, the Reds still were winning. They were hitting out of their shoes and there was no way it was going to continue. We are now seeing the consequences.
Agree. Yes, the bullpen is tiring and that may mean Bell has fewer great options. But it should also mean that Bell needs to resist his innate urge to churn through the bullpen until he finds the guy who can blow the game for that night. It worked today – that guy was Sam Moll. Why? Gibaut looked fine. Allowing a runner on first with two outs is not reason to panic. This loss falls squarely on David Bell (with last night at least partly on him for similar reasons). Really disheartening loss today.
“His decisions, as much as I disagreed with them, were working, though”
Was it really working though?
In many of those games, the Reds would have a 5+ run lead, when the bullpen churn would start. Next thing you know, it’s a 1 run game, and you have to burn more relievers that would normally be resting.
All this produces an affect for things down the road, and now the tax is coming due, with the collapse of another David Bell bullpen.
Down on the farm Barrero continues his hot hitting with two more hits so far including another HR (10). Lopez extends hit on base streak to 39 games. That’s impressive.
Melvin: Sounds like you watch the Reds MiLB teams and so do I. You mentioned the Louisville hitting instructor and I can’t say if it’s his work, dumb luck or whatever but it appears any hitter who goes there really improves their lot in life. Not only power but plate discipline and situational hitting. Very impressive.
I’m retired. have an understanding wife and have the MiLB.TV package so I watch nearly all games of the 4 upper levels of the system – I’m very impressed with how fundamentally strong these teams are. It’s a major reason why I’m so excited about the future of the parent team. The organization is strong and looks to only be getting stronger.
Praying the ship gets righted in Pittsburgh!
3 upper levels and occasionally Daytona but I do listen to their bulk of their games, wish more were televised…
Yeah. This is the first year I’ve been into watching the minors. Although not into it as much as you I do enjoy keeping track of the young talent. The Louisville hitting coach has something going for him for sure. We can only hope that Mr. Bell earns his money, makes wise decisions, and does everything he can to turn this thing around. In my view the manager plays a big role in regards to winning and losing especially in a situation like this. We CANNOT wait to shake things up. It will be too late quickly.
Well, whatever they are learning from the AAA hitting instructor they seem to be forgetting when they come up to the Reds, well, except for McLain.
Makes you wander what instruction/philosophy they’re getting with the Reds vs. the Bats.
Frankly, at this point, swap EDLC and Barrero. Barrero appears to be throwaway in the Reds plans. Play him at SS while EDLC works on his hitting and pitch identification, especially when batting from the right side. We don’t need Bell & company to create another Aquino. Send him back to Louisville for a couple of weeks for a tune up.
>>>Send him back to Louisville for a couple of weeks for a tune up.
Yes!!!
If EDLC were sent to Louisville and Barrero recalled, that just means Kevin Newman would become the starting SS.
Might have a point there. lol
@CI3J, I see your reasoning and Krall may need to step in. But then Krall has already shown himself to be either complicit or a wimp.
I understand frustration, but frustration shouldn’t turn into complete stupidity. Barrero is a AAAA player at best. WILL NEVER be successful in the MLB. The idea of swapping EDLC for Barrero is just ridiculous. How about just move EDLC down in the order, so the can relax and not think he has to do everything.
@Chris, your player handicapping isn’t supported by data
Where has Benson been lately? Seem his playing time has been drastically cut.
I was wondering the same. Isn’t he leading the Reds in OPS? If he’s hurt, get him some official rest on the 10 day IL and bring up a fresh healthy bat. If not, let him hit!
Why didn’t the Reds pickup Michael Lorenzen at the deadline…his no hitter last night …illustrates how bad the Reds blew it. EDLC strikes out way too much…to be a lead off hitter.
Bell is in way over his head…extending him made no sense whatsoever…
Pat Kelly has been responsible for developing our young players at Louisville for a long time and should be Reds Manager.
The Reds problems start with the Castilini Family…
They announced he’s had some back tightness or pain. Hoping an IL trip isn’t necessary, but wondering if he’s put on IL Friday when India rejoins team.
What a deflating loss. Two days in a row against a team you are competing against for a potential playoff spot and you blow the lead in the 8th inning. I think this is the worst stretch of the year for the Reds And Lorenzen just pitched a no hitter for the Phillies…
Reds went 4-14 earlier in the year. They have lost 8 out of last 9. So that stretch earlier in the year still worst. Reds would have to go 3-6 over next 9 games to match that stretch. The way things are going that is certainly possible.
Reds are 11-18 starting with the series vs the Brewers before the Allstar break ….a nice .379 winning percentage since that series when the pressure to win increased competing in the playoff race. Unfortunately, Bell and increased expectations don’t go well together. His teams only play well when there are no expectations or pressure to win. They’ll likely keep floundering around until they’re totally out of the playoff race by mid September and then they’ll probably play a little better to finish the year once the playoff chase ends. Truly the mark of a really good manager…
Michael L. throws a no-hitter for the Phillies…..124 pitches…..I guarantee you, Bell would have taken him out of the game in like the 7th inning
Yep, Lorenzen no hits the team that swept the Reds. Pretty much sums up the season
Probably the 6th if he walked a batter in the 6th inning.
Adding insult to injury: M. Lorenzen no hitter… Krall “We have all we need” Sure!!!
Did Krall say “we have all we need”?
Just asking
Nope.
But he did say the prices were too high and that he had Greene, Lodolo, and others coming back short ly. Phillies didn’t think a #10 prospect was too high of price to pay for Lorenzen in their effort to get a wild card spot. Or the Orioles a couple high teen prospects to get Jack Flaherty. And I definitely think he overplayed his hand on 1) how valuable Greene and Lodolo Greene and Lololo were going to be to this team on their return, and 2).the non need to replace some fatiguing arms in Abbott, Diaz, and others. You don’t leave a young first place team hanging like this on August 1. It could be consequential beyond 2023.
Rob, I have no problem discussing NK’s statements about the prices being too high. But that’s an entirely different thing than making up a quote out of thin air that NK never uttered.
Again I stand by NK’s statement that the prices were too high. What teams required from Phil may have been differe t than what they required from Cincy. Every team out there probably started the conversation with Marte, Arroyo, or Phillips and then pivited to Petty or Hector. And I agree, those prices are too high.
Add to that the very real liklihood of all the Reds amazing rookies cooling down in the dog days, which is exactly what has happened, and the prospect given up would have been totally wasted.
NK did exactly the right thing. He helped a little on the margins
And one of my favorite players from previous decade just threw a no hitter for another team. Way to keep the thumbs up your holes during trade deadline while everyone else contending got better. Same song and dance
Reds 4-9 since Bell’s 3-year contract extension! Awesome!
He did absolutely nothing to merit a 3 year extension at this particular point …. Why the rush !!! … His track record with the Reds has been pitiful and he is one of the absolute worst tactical managers in the game
The Reds have returned to 2022 “dumpster fire mode” since the All-Star break. Meanwhile, Castellanos is hitting like an All-Star and Lorenzen has been brilliant in his two Phillies starts, throwing a no-hitter tonight. I don’t know who I despise more at this point: the Castellini clan or Nick Krall, their puppet.
The Reds had the division lead at the deadline, the fans have been packing GABP for the last two-plus months, yet ownership and management does absolutely nothing except add a 31-year old reliever from the lowly A’s. How can you get excited as a fan when the front office shows no eagerness to win?
Not sure what the attendance has been the last few games but it looks like about half of the seats are empty vs the sellouts they were getting. So if you’re losing an extra
15,000-20,000 fans a game from the gate that’s a whole lot of cheese to give up. I wonder when ownership/management will realize (hopefully sometime earlier than later in 2024) they need to pull the plug on Bell because the money they’re losing at the gate, along with the fans goodwill is not worth it and then just eating the last 2+ years of his contract. Not to mention pissing away any realistic chances of successful post seasons for 3 more years with a really talented and young nucleus that is either already here or coming up from AAA soon.
The same thing can be said about Krall. Get a GM willing to make trades and parting with prospects…
For the most part, it has been the solid players who would have been here even if trades were made who have fallen off. The Reds would still be losing and they would have less high end prospects had they made 1 or 2 front page trades. Nick Krall knows what he is doing … imo.
2023 is house money. Any winning that comes from it is bonus. There is money to spend for 24. All the young guys, particularly ELDC have the winter to prepare for it.
Pennant races and learning how to win ARE player development.
See above, Goal 1, 2023, development
Oof.
Former Red Michael Lorenzen (recently traded from the Tigers to the Phillies) throws a no-hitter tonight for his new team. His first outing in Philly wasn’t too shabby, either.
Thrilled for him. But wish he was doing it in Cincinnati.
Turn out the lights, the party’s over.
Just wait till next decade.
Not next decade… Next year because the GM did not waste high end prospects to suppliment the roster. He was right. 23 was never the year.
Phillies did not trade a high-end prospect for Lorenzen. That reveals that a squad can be fortified at the deadline without giving up the farm. Teams do it all the time.
doofus, there is a very real chance that the price charged to Philly and Cincy were different. The Reds have an abundance of high end guys. E erybody know it, and everybody wa ts a piece of the pie.
Lee is rated as a 40+ prospect by Fangraphs. The Reds 40+ prospects that are infielders: CES & Carlos Jorge. For a 2 month rental? Thanks but no.
Stupid comment. You can say that ’23 was never the year and can’t be proven wrong unless they actually win something. Congrats you get to be right no matter what. Never mind the organization never chose to make the effort. Did your brilliance also say that ’91 through ’23 was never the year? LOL
No Chris, but thanks for the insult and name calling. The things I said are the same things I’ve been saying all along, and they are the same things the majority thought at the beginning of the year, and the same things the front Office said.. if you read between the lines. 23 was never the year. For many on here 24 wasn’t either. I’ve been saying 24 all along, and I still think that way.
As a general rule, those who resort to insults and name calling are the people who don’t have any idea what they are talking about. That could apply here.
Doing the same thing over, and over, and over again and expecting a different outcome from what has already occurred is called insanity. It perfectly describes Bell’s bullpen mismanagement.
The over working of the bullpen back in May, June, July is starting to catch up. I know there were a lot of games were if you were going to win the game you had to go to the bullpen early, but there were also a lot of games when the starting pitcher was pulled unnecessarily early with low pitch counts like 60’s 70’s low 80’s with a lead or tied. I mentioned this, on here back in June several time’s that i was worried that they can’t keeping pulling the starting pitcher with such low pitch count’s because the bullpen just won’t last when you get to Aug and Sept. I don’t know if this is all Bell or DJ or both together or it’s a organizational philosophy. I mean starting pitchers are there for a reason, to take most of the load of the innings. A starting pitcher should be able to physically go 115 to 120 pitches and if they can’t then you need change the training techniques or find pitchers that can.
All of this is so very true.
In many of those games, the Reds would have a 5+ run lead, when the bullpen churn would start. Next thing you know, it’s a 1 run game, and you have to burn more relievers that would normally be resting.
All this produces an affect for things down the road, and now the tax is coming due, with the collapse of another David Bell bullpen.
The bullpen philosophy has to start in the Spring. Training all of the relievers (except maybe Diaz) to be 2 inning pitchers. If you can save 1-2 pitcher appearances per game, that would be a start to longevity during the season.
Why not Alex Young. Young has done pretty well all year against left handers. Put him in against Josh Bell. Not sure how Sam Moll will do the rest of this year, and the next with the Reds…but they did get him from the A’s. Thats the problem with the Reds, they are trying to get in the playoffs on the cheap. They don’t want to go out and spend money to get a quality left handed reliever, and today it bit them hard!
Moll was doing ok and then he hit a down draught. Not a game you ever expect to lose, but it happens to all teams. The Reds will stay at least in the race for the wild card. This young team needs someone to step forward as a leader. Youthful enthusiasm alone will not get it done.
Josh Bell is a switch hitter
On the bright side, only a few more weeks until football season. If you’re into that sort of thing.
Only for the men of the Scarlet and Grey on this side of the Atlantic. Sundays are a circus compared to the EPL and some of the other international football leagues.
While I agree with the opinion the Reds should have done more at the deadline…the Angels did a whole lot and I think have been just as bad as the Reds since the deadline. So just making moves for the sake of making moves doesn’t really lead to success. I think the Dbacks made several moves and are a sinking ship too.
I think the bullpen moves earlier in the year have caught up a bit to Bell. I remember several games where a guy would go like 4 1/3 innings, or 5 1/3 and to me I thought try to have them go that extra two/thirds of inning…if you do that several nights a week it’s bringing in Young, Gibaut, others, in games earlier then usual…and it just all adds up to extra usage of certain guys, and not being as fresh.
With that being said, I think it’s a team that maybe can’t handle the pressure too…I love Ashcraft and was all for him going 8 innings against Washington but he blows the lead and the game becomes tied and they lose. Then yesterday they take Ashcraft out after 7 with a lead and the bullen blows the lead. When you’re collapsing or going bad, it starts to become a real mental issue. Maybe the Reds weren’t what we thought they were if they are ready to collapse without even getting to the 120 game mark of the season.
I hope they turn it around though!
Reds Monthly records…if you look at their schedule they’ve been very streaky all year…the hope for the Reds is they still have a few more 5-8 game winning streaks left in them.
March 0-1
April 12-16
May 14-13
June 18-9
July 15-11
August 1-8
Something I said at the trade deadline, but it seems to bear repeating… This team needs a closer.
Diaz was great the first 1/3 of the season, good the next 1/3, and bad over the past 1/3.
Looking at those 1/3’s stastistically:
batting average allowed
0.110 –> 0.151 –> 0.283
strikeout per 9 IP
16.9 –> 11.7 –> 8.4
And he has put at least 2 guys on base in about 1/2 of those outings.
Obviously Joey Votto will be due 7at million next year and Moose will be off the books so that allows them to use the 35 million in savings to find a reliable closer and another reliable starter and perhaps another outfielder.
I would love to see Joey replace Larkin as a television analyst and eventually get into coaching.
Still some of the rookies are way too strike out prone and that issue must be resolved. I have very little faith in EDLC when he comes to the plate as almost half of his bats result in strike outs. Steer and McClain and CES must also work in the off season on making contact more consistently.
Still the line up next year should include Marte , CES, EDLC, and McClain in the infield and Steer, Friedl, Fraley, Benson, and Dunn in the Outfield/DH. Competition for the backup position should include Fairchild, Barrero, Hinds, Reynolds, and Hopkins.
The key will be getting another reliable arm for the BP and hoping that the starting pitchers can get healthy. Lodolo and Greene are a key and hopefully will join Ashcraft and Williamson and Abbott as a solid starting five.
I am not sure Senzel and India and even Stephenson add any more to the mix than those mentioned above and will cost more. Maille has been solid and one of the two catchers at Louisville may offer as much for less $$$, so all three can be solid trade chips to find controllable pitching.
I am very pessimistic that we ever see Antone , Dunn, or Overton on the 25 man roster but hold out some hope for Guitterez and Lively in long relief. Perhaps Phillips or Aguilar can be a mid-season call up
Remember, “he can’t start” Micheal lorenzen? Threw a no no gesterday
I never liked them putting Lorenzen and Iglasias into the pen. They were our best 2 pitchers. I don’t remember exactly, but I think the theory running around was they couldn’t stay healthy as starters after their injuries.
I will believe it when I see it but I can’t imagine the Reds spending for elite position players or pitchers. Castillo would fall into the category of pretty good and we didn’t want to pay him $75M, much less than the $100M Seattle signed him for. You are not going to get a top shelf pitcher in 2024 for less than $80-100M. As for outfielders, Bellinger was out there for a $17M one year deal. Bellinger would be a great fit on this team but no way he is any less than $100M 4 year guy this winter. And we are going to fish in those waters? OK.
I thought the trade deadline and our abundance of prospects were our sweet spot. Scherzer at half price for Arroyo. That is my data point. We didn’t want Scherzer at 50% off for 1.5 years. And we are going to spend $100M and sign some elite guy for 5 years? OK. And oh, we will have some interest in signing some of our own guys at the same time? OK.
Hoping they can finish above .500. 10-16 since the break. 1-7 since the deadline and the realization that ownership doesn’t care.
Don’t forget 4-9 since Bell’s 3-year contract extension!
The story of the season has always been that 40% of the rotation was a crapshoot and the rest was relying on young pitchers to step up. Starting the season by relying on Cessa, Overton, Dunn, and Weaver to round out the rotation was never meant to help the Reds be in contention, but merely hoping to cover innings on the cheap. It was my only roster gripe coming out of ST, that they didn’t find veteran innings eater (a Roark or Feldman type) to help solidify the backend of the rotation. Unfortunately the young guys got hurt, had some hiccups, and/or have come back down to earth after great starts. The bullpen has been solid but it lacked depth and experience and now has been overworked and exposed.
There have been some nice stories along the way though. Abbott came out of AAA on a mission and kept it up for a good bit until a recent rough stretch. Also, Ashcraft rebounding after a rough start, Williamson finding his footing as the year has gone one, and Lively coming back to the Reds and steadying the rotation for a time (until the 13 run debacle) were all nice stories.
Unfortunately, it was probably always going to go this way. There wasn’t enough in the tank to keep it up and ultimately no help arrived. They were probably never as good as they were during the winning streak and they aren’t as bad as they’ve looked during this current stretch. All in all, it’s still been a fun season to follow. They’re ahead of schedule in regard to being competitive. They just have to keep growing together and take that next step.
+500. Well said Hotto
Hotno, I believe the Reds will spend this winter. They have to or the fan base will revolt.
They must get one top notch starter or one top notch outfielder.
Will have to get one quality reliever in addition to the above.
Think you are close to hitting the nail on the head. Very real possibility that 1) we overachieved in the first 100 games, 2) didn’t adequately staff the starting rotation, and 3) burned up the bullpen because of#2. All that said, we were in first place and certainly had the prospect capital …..both elite and mid level ….that we could have addressed the rotation and the pen. As many on this blog saw as needed to continue our magical run. But Krall saw Greene, Lodolo, Antone, and others on the horizon and decided patience and caution would be the better approach. We are now in free fall and certainly Krall’s inaction is a big part of it. If he had made the appropriate trades, yes I think we would still be in first. Not making the trades and awaiting on the wunderkind of Greene and Lodolo, and not replacing Weaver, I predicted we would be 3-4 out on 8/20. Considering the unforeseeable decline in hitting, the August 20 number could be as high as 5-6 games out. Either way, I think it would be a large but not undoable number. I don’t have a clue where Krall was thinking we would be on August 20. But he is the one who decided we didn’t need help.
History it’s not on our side though. Teams as young as the Reds do not win World Series. I’m sure that Nick Krall is well aware of that so he was willing to trade for controllable talent, but not trade for rentals. Smart man that Nick Krall.
Pete, Besides the obvious I do not see the difference between a controllable asset and a rental. Controllable being under contract for more than one year at X salary. Typically, for the same quality, rentals are cheaper. A lot of teams in the pennant chase chose rentals. Phillies, Marlins, Cubs , Orioles, etc. orioles being the only team with a better record than the Reds on August 1. Others were merely trying to improve their wildcard chances. Cubs being a real outlier with a mere 500 record. As for controllable assets, there was a range of starting pitchers all the way from Cease (obtained via a #37 prospect) to Scherzer (obtained via a #2 prospect). So I don’t understand why Cincy was so smart not getting any quality starting pitchers and the Phillies, Marlins and Orioles were so misguided in trading various prospects for 2 month rentals. The fans in Philly are crazy happy that they have bettered their chances at a wildcard. The Cubs fans are excited that they did not trade their rentals (Bellinger and Stroman) for a 500 club and a very low probability chance at the playoffs. Cincy fans are not so excited as we were because we still have Weaver and a burned out bullpen. Other than the Cubs series over Labor Day weekend, we may not have another sellout this year. That is a real letdown in my mind not to feel the excitement of a playoff environment.
+100,000
Hotto, this is by far the best post of the season. In a few paragraphs you have perfectly diagnosed the problem.
Many here, fancy themselves as “experts”, (they are not) but, you obviously get it. I wish there were more insightful posters here, such as yourself.
+100,000
Hotto, this is by far the best post of the season. In a few paragraphs you have perfectly diagnosed the problem.
Many here, fancy themselves as “experts”, (they are not) but, you obviously get it. I wish there were more insightful posters here, such as yourself.
To me it feels like Ashcraft has settled into being who he is—a statistically league average pitcher (94 ERA+). It just doesn’t feel like there’s much upside left to tap into with his current arsenal. Hitters have a .782 OPS, his K rate is 16% against a 9% walk rate. At least he keeps the ball on the ground with a 51% GB rate. Comparatively, Williamson has been slightly better and is seemingly trending upward. .755 OPS, 20% K rate, 9% BB rate, 103 ERA+.
You have to wonder if Ashcraft becomes a depth piece next year if Connor Phillips or a free agent signing pushes him down the pecking order.
I think you are underselling on Ashcraft.
You need to check out his stats for the last 2 months, after he “turned the corner” where his ERA is 1.94 over 8 starts.
He is definitely a foundation piece of next year’s rotation.
It’s just unbelievable how “actual” Reds fans can be so misinformed. What in the world does a Reds fan want from Ashcraft. Give me 5 pitchers with his numbers over the last 8 games, all season long, and you instantly win the World Series.
Ashcraft needs a 4th pitch pure and simple, a change up or a curve.
Really? I guess his under 2 era over the last 8 games doesn’t work for you?
I have never heard the need for a 4th pitch from anybody. 3rd, yes to be an effective starter for the 3rd time through the lineup. 4th? No.
Hopefully Ashcraft learned from his awful cold streak May-June and learned what adjustments he needs to make to fend off a streak like that in the future. He’s looked like a #1 starter outside those 8 games.
Ashcraft GS IP ERA FIP OPS BAbip
GS 1-6 6 36 2.00 3.54 .587 .245
GS 7-14 8 33 12.82 7.72 1.127 .407
GS 15-22 8 51 1.94 4.56 .627 .234
Trying not to get frustrated or impatient here because I don’t think any of us had high expectations before the year started. With that being said when the team was in contention and the crowds started showing up at the ballpark it would have been nice for management to put some effort in too.
We heard “thanks for the support and packing the ballpark, that will help us to spend and better the team”. But the result was, “hey we have next year and quit whining we gave you a championship run in freaking NINETEEN NINETY”.
The payroll discrepancy in 1990, from highest to lowest in MLB, was $5 million.
My take on the Reds owners/FO. They are happy with a decent team just good enough to draw fans, and winning championships is barely on their radar.
“Slip sliding away…”
Mikey Biceps throws a no-hitter. Yeah, Nick, there was no one available at the trade deadline.
I bet Dave Dombrowski is kicking himself for sending that precious Philly prospect to Anaheim for Lorenzen. If he knew better, he should realize that ALL prospects turn into superstars, thus you should never deal any of them.
Ashcraft has been great of late. 7 innings 1 run 7 k yesterday and went 8 innings 3 runs friday night but gave up the 2 run homer in the 8th to tie. Reds bullpen has blown 3 games Reds should have won with deep outings from the SP- last Friday, Tuesday and Wednesday. What got the Reds to August was a fun explosive offense and a shutdown pen. Both of those are gone now and without both, there’s not much hope.
Farmer has been bad for 2 months. Sims has been disaster. Law has been meh. Diaz has been off for a month now. Cruz/Gibault and the 2 lefties have been good but when Bell changes pitchers every 3 hitters, you’re going to find an ineffective reliever with a dead arm in august.
What fueled the PED epidemic in the 1990’s was mostly relievers with dead arms in august trying to finish the year and get another contract. This bullpen is toast, as everyone correctly predicted.
And that kid Richardson with the 97-98mph fastball and killer changeup who pitched so well after the rocky 1st inning in his MLB debut is back in the AAA rotation. It’s not like the Reds could use a fresh arm to give them a multi inning bridge to the bullpen backend a couple of days a week I guess.
Richardson, and Phillips should definitely be considered as bullpen help this year. They can compete for starting spots in 24 with a bit of Big League experience under their belts.
What has happened with the Reds pen is a result of not adapting when the 14 man pitcher roster limit was reduced to 13. They only had 2-3 years to adapt and get ready. Guess that wasn’t enough.
During the trade deadline I was hoping for some arms to help us win playoff games, but they didn’t do that. Now just making the playoffs is looking like a long shot. They pissed away a good opportunity here in 23. I hope it was worth it.
Greene, Lodolo, Gutierrez, Antone, Santillan, and maybe Dunn could help, but as every day passes, it’s looking like it might be too late. We have 7 games before Greene is hopefully back, if we can get 4 or 5 W’s that would keep us in the conversation of the playoffs.
I don’t like being negative, and I really do think the 24 team is going to be stacked, and the 25 likely even more so. I just don’t like seeing a possible very good season slip away here in 23.
Has anyone even considered this?
It’s quite possible that because of the way Bell “handled” Lorenzen when he was here, that a deal couldn’t work. Maybe Bell burned the bridge so far that Krall saw no way of reuniting the two.
Congrats, you’ve found a way to blame Bell for this too. That’s impressive.
Reading comprehension my friend.
“Possible” and “Maybe” do not lead to that conclusion.
There was smoke when Lorenzen was here….so it creates a possible narrative.
I do think I caught your sentiment. It’s a bridge too far to connect, imo.
Managers don’t trade for players, or else we should be giving Bell credit for the trades over the past year that have revived our rebuild.
The overwhelming messages of the past month is that everything is Bell’s fault. (Technically, even when things were going well they would have been going even better without Bell.)
You certainly have the right to your imagination/opinions, but it’s not consistent or objective. And, that’s coming from someone who isn’t particularly thrilled with the Bell extension either.
As a frequent, but specific, critic of Bell here, I have to respectfully disagree with your take.
Sure, there’s been considerable “off with his head!” type rants about Bell here, but a lot of the critique has been with very specific strategic decsions Bell has and has not made.
These are things within the realm of the manager.
There has also been specific criticisms of players: poor pitch identification, grip n rip approach to ABs, lack of situational awareness on the basepaths, swinging at unhittable pitches, not working the count, hitting to the opposite field etc.
Things within the realm of the player.
Sometimes they intersect….a lack of baseball fundamentals falls on both the player AND Bell for not emphasizing, reinforcing or teaching these things.
I’m sure folks get tired of the Bell bashing here.
Sometimes, I do.
Hoping he gets canned after just signing a 3 year extension is like wishing for that pony for Christmas.
Not going to happen.
Personally, I’m working on a way to enjoy the young players, glad it’s not 2022 anymore, avert my eyes when EDLC is at bat and try and go Zen in regards to Bell.
I think he is a terrible strategic manager, but he’s not going anywhere, so it’s up to me to adapt.
3+ years of whining about Bell everyday sounds like a season in hades.
No I didn’t consider it because it’s bat(xxxx) crazy and wildly assumptive. Gross….
Classy response as usual.
Whether there’s any truth to it or not is irrelevant.
All I stated is that the possibility exists.
If the lineup comes out Friday and once again EDLC is hitting leadoff I dont think I can watch the game. Friedl and India are the lowest strikeout rate guys. Please have one of them there.
I would have liked Lorenzen as much as anyone, but the Phillies traded their #5 prospect who is an infielder with a plus hit tool and speed. It wasnt just some A lottery ticket. It was a legit prospect. Would you really have traded Cam Collier or Sal Stewart or Chase Petty for 2 months of Lorenzen? He wouldnt help this strikeout prone offense or Stephenson’s season long slump or India being average nor the tired arms of Farmer/Sims/LAw plus a slumping Diaz.
Reds weren’t just 1 guy away. Theyve got lots of issues to fix and soon.
The primary one being experience. If the Reds really want Michael Lorenzen, he’s a free agent at the end of the season and they can sign him without losing any valuable prospect capital.
The Reds #5 prospect in Doug’s latest ranking is SS Edwin Arroyo who recently dropped a slot from #4. He is currently at Class A+.
With EDLC and McLain in the fold for up to 6 more seasons each under the current CBA and at least 2 more SS prospects aside from Arroyo in the top 20 of Doug’s Top 25 prospects, why not Arroyo for Lorenzen (or somebody similar)?
They are glutted on middle IF guys and do not seem to be repositioning any of them which means sooner or later some are going to be traded.
Krall made it plain that he was not interested in trading top prospects for rentals. I couldn’t agree more especially since he had to know that David Bell was going to get a 3-year contract extension. If he was the one that instigated that contract and the Reds totally flop down the line, I don’t mind if they can Krall. As much as I like and respect the guy, that would be an offense worth being fired for. An absolute disaster in my mind.
Oops. I meant to link Doug’s latest list above.
Aside from Edwin Arroyo at #5, the Reds have SS’s his age or younger at #’s 7, 13, and 15 on the list.
https://www.redsminorleagues.com/2023/08/02/cincinnati-reds-2023-midseason-top-25-prospect-list/
I agree that they will need to use this organizational strength to make their next moves, but I do think Arroyo is much more valuable than a 2 month rental of a #3 or #4 starter. Too many holes/inexperience in this roster to think Lorenzen would have taken them to glory, although as a huge fan of his it would have been awesome to see him back.
I’m glad Krall stood pat (assuming the overall asking price was simply too high) rather than go all in, but now he has his work cut out for him this offseason as our expectations are now much higher.
Totally agree Old School. Reds have to many holes to think Lorenzen would have gotten them over the hump. Mikey threw a no hitter with the best catcher in league. Does anybody really think Stephenson or Maile would have taken Mikey there? No.
Great comment OS. The biggest issue to fix is experience and that can’t be done quickly. 162 game season. Pressure of a pennant race. Playing at a level higher than previous experience.
These are just some of the things facing the team right now.
It stinks what has been happening. I’m not sure how it gets fixed quickly.
The BP is on fumes. The starters were barely going 5 innings earlier in the season so the BP had to be used, and used too much. How could that have been changed?
I have confidence we have good/great young players who need to learn how to perform under the mental and physical grind of an entire MLB season.
I am convinced the lack of financial commitment before the season started in the form of 1 or 2 starting pitchers and help for the BP has cratered what could have been a post season appearance nobody expected.
I thought the Phillies traded their #8 prospect to get Lorenzen. #8 Philly probably equates to Reds #10 with CES still on the list. Yes, I would have pulled the trigger on Lorenzen for Allen or Stoudt orHopkins. No, I am not trading any of our elite 5-6 prospects for a 2 month rental of Lorenzen quality. He is a #3 at best behind Nola and Wheeler. He is a lot better than Weaver and would have probably gotten us 4-5 more wins than Luke. For Scherzer however, I probably would yield one of our IFs like Arroyo or Collier. And pray Scherzer pitched really well down the stretch. Opposed to Krall, I trade one of my IF prospects for a top shelf pitcher who gets me down the stretch and into next year. I have a lot more confidence in Max’s next 1.5 years than I do in Arroyos next 15. Plus these first place in August opportunities don’t come along all that often. Seize it. The Mets also covered a lot of the money part.
You would’ve made those trades for Lorenzen, but no one would have traded with you. That is the problem. He fetched a 40+ prospect the Reds infielders that are 40+ prospects are CES and Carlos Jorge. There’s no way in the world that I would give either of those guys up for a 2-month rental. No way, know how.
The market prices for pitching this cycle were more ridiculous than ever. Unless you have a legitimate shot to be a World Series contender. If you believe the Reds are a legit contender then we just have a difference of opinion. Please don’t infer that you support the team any more than I do or that Nick Krall doesn’t want to do the very best for the team. In other words, the fan base
I am not familiar with Fangraph ratings. I do know that Lorenzen was traded for the Phillies #8 Prospect per MLB.com ratings. Va the same rating system for the Reds, that would have been the equivalent of Levi Stoudt or Jay Allen.A pretty hefty price for a 2 month rental of a #3 starter at best. Considering the Reds were in first place, and using Luke Weaver as one of our starters, I think Istill would have pulled that trigger on either Lorenzen or Jack Flaherty. Still think that equates to something like 4+ wins versus having to use Weaver. My related heartburn is that I think is overvaluing the contributions of Greene and Lodolo the last 5-6 weeks. He acts like those are 7-8 guaranteed quality starts. If that is correct, then he is probably correct that that will be enough. If he is over hyping, then I think it will be a close call as to whether we make the playoffs or not. That is the rub imo when you are in first place on August 1. You throw your hat into the ring and give it a good fight. Not save your mid level prospects for a rainy day.
>old-school…The Phillies did trade their #5 propsect, but Lee would not have rated any higher than 12th in the Reds organization, according to his 45 overall value based on 20-80 scouting rating. that would have been the equivalent of a Reece Hinds, Victor Acosta or Jay Allen. I could have lived with any of these (or similarly ranked prospect) for the addition of Lorenzen.
Fantastic read…On the Road with Votto.
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/road-joey-votto-hasn-t-120000018.html
Pull up Fangraphs – Team Stats. Here is where CIN fared in MLB in the 1st Half:
112 SB (1st)
9.6 BB% (3rd)
3,521 PA (2nd)
454 R (5th)
437 RBI (5th)
.337 OBP (3rd)
What this shows is that the team grinded out PA’s. They hustled and were aggressive. Most importantly, they took walks. Now, let’s look at the 2nd Half:
6.6 BB% (5th Worst in MLB)
27.7 K% (4th Worst)
.226 AVG (4th Worst)
81 wRC+ (3rd Worst)
.287 OBP (Worst in MLB)
This shows an inability to grind out PA’s. An inability to draw walks. Ton’s of swing and miss. Because we are not near the bottom in power categories, it means the team is selling out for power. It has not worked.
Getting backed to grinding out PA’s and winning games on heart and hustle. You know. Like the Reds’ Running Man mascot – not the loser Mustache Guy mascot. 🙂
Mr. Red was replaced by Mr. Redlegs in 2007. CIN is 1,235-1,371 since that time. Ditch the Mustache Mascot.
+5,000 😛
I’m curious if the Reds crater and I’m talking far worse than 2021 would Bob relent and let Nick pick us on man? He could kick David Bell up to the front office and take over Buddy’s job as far as I’m concerned. I’d like to think there’s an outside chance of this happening. At least it will give us some. Hope going into the end of the season. I’m seeing the hopelessness of getting a new manager as the primary reason for all the moping that we are witnessing in Reds fandom.
I think the problem with kicking D,Bell to the front office now is that he makes probably makes too much under the new deal. Krall’s job is probably the only one paying as muc or more.
If Krall made the decision on extending Bell then I wouldn’t mind if he ended up with Nick Krall’s job. Krall would deserve to lose his. Nothing else would really matter at that point anyway.
If the Reds gate attendance and fan interest crashes how much do you think that’s going to cost the Reds? Probably a hell of a lot more than David Bell’s contract over the course of a season. They better get their heads out of their ass and be willing to move quick if this thing continues to go south into 2024. They’ve got a great window of opportunity to get the fanbase all the way back and bring real hope of winning a World Series back to Cincinnati with a very talented young nucleus. If the keep Bell they’re likely going to piss it away, along with all the good mojo they have built with the fan base this year if this team continues to tank the rest of this season and into 2024. The Reds will have exexpectations starting the 2024 season they haven’t had in a long time. The fans don’t care that ownership just decided to re-sign Bell to a new 3-year extension…. that’s their fault for being stupid. Again, David Bell is decent as a manager when there’s no pressure and no expectations to win. However, his history shows very clearly when the pressure goes up and expectations are raised his team’s flounder… that is who he is as a manager and that won’t get it done. At the end of the day that is what really matters… so what are we doing here? If I’m wrong and his team starts to play better under the playoff chase pressure over the next 7 weeks then I will be happy to come on here and congratulate all the Bell supporters for being right and admit I was wrong, but I don’t think I am.
I’ve watched David Bell manage for 5 years and I have a pretty damn good idea of who he is… and who he isn’t.
After this surprising exciting season, if the Reds don’t at least gain a wild card, I can see Bell promoted (the move would surely be labeled that) to the front office and the GM able to get his own manager.
I hope you’re right. That would be welcome news to a great majority of the fan base
That might be the only way for us fans to stop having to deal with David Bell for THREE MORE YEARS as manager. Uuuuuug. We really DO have the worst owner. He doesn’t know how to win even when he tries. smh
Happy for Mikey Biceps to get that feather in his cap. Absolutely no telling if we would have experienced that had he come back to Cincy. Especially since he was well over 100 pitches.
Same. It was a lot of pitches. Will be curious to see if it impacts the rest of his season.
Off day question for the group: Pete mentioned above have David Bell being moved into the front office which would require a new manager.
Who is the new manager and why? What would make the new manager better than David Bell. Please try to not insult David Bell. The purpose is to find out what you would do differently and who you would find who supports your managerial philosophy.
I would let Nick Krall get his own man. I admittedly don’t have the expertise to give an educated answer. So I won’t.
If David Bell gets us out of this tailspin, I’m good with him staying. And the team probably. But what if they don’t is the fear.. of course, this is the reason most of us have an issue with offering the extension at this time. It makes no sense as a practical matter.
The team probably will pull out of this tailspin…
You have to ask the question why? We’ve had five years of watching him. There are better managers out there and the Reds better to manage this young talented group… enough said. I love the guys who always want to defend David Bell and every time the team plays bad they point to the players not playing as well l…as if the manager has nothing to do with gow their tema plays???
it’s such a ridiculous perspective
Yet, you still can’t simply answer his query, choosing instead to just whine more and say how obvious the answer is without providing one.
It’s rather simple. Bell is obsessed with L/R decisions regardless of what the pitcher’s or the batter’s numbers actually say. He seldom lets a reliever go more than one inning regardless of the number of pitches thrown. He promotes the idea that most players should be utility players just like he was. He never holds anyone accountable for their bad play or poor performance. He manages as if this were little league and everyone gets a participation trophy. He makes inexplicable decisions like pinch running for a runner on 3rd or pitching to a team’s best hitter with two out and a runner on 2nd. He does not promote the fundamentals, etc (like base running, sacrifice bunts/flies). He never displays any situational awareness and routinely runs out of players heading into extra innings. His lineup selection are analytically unsupported. His player development approach appears not existent. There are numerous others. And none of these are new. Many here have been pointing to these problems his entire tenure. And the story that the players love playing for him is simply propaganda- a myth.
Brayan Peña? Was managing somewhere in the minors last time I checked and seemed to be a highly respected and likable player during his career…
Joey Votto? If he wants to, of course…
Reds 0-7 since Senzel whined his way into the lineup.
Also, in the past 7 days:
Fraley + India = 0 plate appearances.
2 starts by Weaver.
ML debut by Richardson.
Abbot falters.
Bullpen has 3 meltdowns.
ELDC, Steer, Fairchild, Stephenson, Newman (and yes, Senzel) all have OPS at/under .600.
Probably not all Senzel’s fault. Nor Bells for playing him. You have no evidence that he is playing because he whined. Without India/Fraley/Benson, he would have played anyway.
He hasn’t helped his case at all, and that’s on him. And, he deserves the pine-time that’s coming when the regulars get back.
excellent post
The Reds were at one time 10 games above .500 and in first place. They had an
opportunity to acquire or trade for multi-additional players during the pre and trade deadline and choose not to do so while others did, inclusive of all NL Central division rivals.
Regardless of who, or why, it was not done it failed them miserably. The Brewers, and Cubs are now ahead of them. A letdown to the team, and the fan base. Future success is not guaranteed. Present success was evident, and now squandered…
Ditto! Lorenzen was owed what? About $2.5M for the rest of the year. No argument there that was unaffordable or big market money out spending us. Pure and simple, Nick wrongly thought 1) our starting pitching was strong enough to get us to the wire, and/or 2) a #10-20 prospect was too much to pay for 2 months of Lorenzen ( or Flaherty or whoever). The Phillies GM or the Orioles GM did not think a #10-#20 prospect was too much to pay to better their teams chances for the playoffs. As of today it looks like we had the GM who dropped the ball. Golly, the first place Braves, Astros, and Marlins all added multiple relief pitchers……possibly recognizing tired arms or injuries down the stretch. Us, no need for that. There are no guarantees that deadline trades are going to pan out. But when you have more resources (prospects) than the next guy, a starving and excited fan base, a starter (Weaver) who can easily be improved upon by at least 4-5 wins, and a bullpen showing major signs of fatigue (Weaveragain), don’t you make 2-3 moves with your mid level prospects to strengthen your chances of staying in first place? There is absolutely nothing wrong with Stoudt, Richardson, and Hopkins having nice 10 year careers with someone other than the Reds. Similarly, there are no guarantees these guys are going to be contributors to the Reds in 2024. The only guarantees are that we were in first place on August 1, 5 games ahead of the Cubs, and 4 games behind the Dodgers for the #2 Seed and Playoff Bye. (The Bengals sure talk and act like this is important.). Come winter, the name of the game will be free agents and who we can sign. 2-3 guys there will cost you $$$ and not prospects. Not our strong suit. I guess Kralls argument thenwill be we don’t need a guy like Bellinger. But he may not around if this tent continues to collapse.
I couldn’t have said it better. Starving and excited fan base says it all. I do hope you are wrong and they push at least some of the chips in for next year. But you are probably right. Holding on to top prospects until they flame out is the way to go. That way we can push it back year after year and just never quite get there.
Phillies gave up their #4 or 5 prospect….not 10-20
VaRedsFan: Trying to do comps which isn’t easy and anyone who can provide a semi-objective measure other than mine, please do so. Lee is rated by Fangraphs as a 40+ prospect. He is a middle infielder, 2nd base I believe. The Reds have only one middle infielder 40+ prospect in their system per Fangraphs:
Carlos Jorge
2B – OF
19 yo
He is playing at low A with Daytona, these are his numbers:
295/400/483, wRC+ = 141, 19.7 K%, 13.2% BB%
11 doubles, 9 triples, 9 HR, 31 SB
Doug has him as the #9 ranked Reds prospect, MLB pipeline at 10, Fangraphs at 12
I have seen on Twitter (X) he is moving to A ball. I’ll wait for Doug to confirm this rumor. Lately he has been playing some in CF as well. If he joins another 19-year-old, Edwin Arroyo (ss), it will be the youngest keystone combo in A ball. Arroyo is one of the youngest players at that level and I’m guessing Jorge would join him.
So based on this do you trade Carlos Jorge for 2 months of Michael Lorenzen? This is more than likely the choice you would have based on at least somewhat objective information. Once you put value to something it cuts through the smoke to see what this deal probably looked like.
Marlins are also ahead of the Reds in the NL Wild Card race!
Only the strong survives. Do the seeds have the resilience, the strength to survive this rough patch, rise from ash and become over achievers again? 🙂
I totally agree with most of the comments that Bell is completely clueless about how to use a pitching staff. I have to wonder if Johnson provides any suggestions or just lets Bell go. Bell has worn out the bullpen every year he has been here. Obviously he does not learn from past mistakes. Its like he has to make his presence known in a game by making the walk out to the mound to take out a pitcher who is doing pretty well maybe given up one hit or a walk.
His line-ups also have a lot to be desired. Constantly moving players to different hitting positions. Playing Senzel at all is a mistake that hopefully will get corrected with the return of India. Fairchild has shown nothing but defense and some speed. Bringing up Ramos who is hitting over .300 and is a switch hitter would make more sense or even playing Hopkins. No way to know what he can do if he never plays. We already know the best we are going to get out of Fairchild is a .240 hitter.
Jeez, a frickin cry fest in here. All it takes is another winning streak and they’re right back in it, some “fans” yall are. Try not to drown in your lake of tears.
I end up defending Bell just because, but a few of you would defend Bell and the FO if they were all found to be in a terrorist cell.
Trolling the complainers.. lol
Bottom line. Krall quit on this year and this team. Funny I asked for Lorenzen, Robertson, or Finnegan. Both those relievers insured our 1-5 homestand. And no, they’re done. Can’t go without a long man when you play close games every day
Who is Finnegan?
Kyle Finnegan on the Nats
Yes, those 2-3 guys would have definitely helped this team. And would have cost us a few mid teen prospects. Guys who are more than a year away or A guys with potential and several years away. Still think we would have also needed a second reliever …preferably LH. Personally, I was on the Max Scherzer bus even though I would have settled for the cheap route of Lorenzen or Flaherty. Mets threw the Rangers a lot of money here. Still would have cost us Arroyo. But yes, Scherzer for this team, this time, and next year. Solid playoff experience. Think we might have had some success in the playoffs with a true #1.
I read that Finnegan was not available that the Nats wanted to hang onto him because they still had two years of control. Maybe I’m wrong but that’s what I’m seeing.
Robertson and Lorenzen fetched pretty good prospects in return. Both of these guys are rentals. Robertson brought back 45+ and 40 level prospects per Fangraphs. That’s pretty steep in my view. If the Reds were serious World Series contenders I believe Nick Krall would’ve had a different point of view. We could probably just chalk this down to a difference of opinion not a lack of interest in the good fortunes of our team.
A 45+ is a high level prospect not a mid teen one. But for good measure Robertson brought back a high and mid- teen prospect. For a rental it makes no sense unless you have a legit case for a WS Championship.
I think it would be helpful to identify all the trades that occurred and give our best guesstimate of what it would cost the Reds. That way we can look at oranges to oranges. Not just some hypothetical, proving a negative equation.
How long has it been since the Reds have had any kind of postseason success? Hint: the year starts with “19”. Another hint: Elly and most of the current Reds weren’t even born yet.
The problem is the fact that we as Reds fans have to sit back and watch this inexperienced offense and duct taped pitching staff lose games for the Reds while so many of their former teammates are having All-Star seasons elsewhere. If the Reds had kept Castillo and Gray, for instance, they’d be in the World Series conversation this year. Castellanos and Lorenzen are both having All-Star seasons. It’s completely depressing to think what could have been if the Reds had kept or re-signed two or three of those players.
Everything quiet in Reds Country.
I think these three games in Pittsburgh will tell a lot of the story whether the Reds at least get a wild card, or the 2023 season reverts to sorting with adjustments on the plate for the offseason.
Happy for Lorenzen. Krall has definitely worked some magic, but I never understood why they never took him seriously as a starter? Esp when pitchers hit. At the same time they were running thru scrubs left & right like Minor, Vlad, etc etc. Oh well. They could use a solid vet starter next year.
He got hurt… was always hurt. They gave him a starter job in spring training 2021 and promptly went on the 60 day IL with a shoulder and didnt come back till july then pulled his hamstring and back to the IL.
Hes skipping his next start so keep an eye on that.
@IRM>> I am also very happy for ML. Don’t know how far back you go as a Reds follower. However, part of what went on with him during his tenure with the Reds was that he was determined to be a 2 way player a la Ohtani today, or at least have a shot at it. Meanwhile, the Reds brass seemed just as determined that he was going to be a pitcher and only a pitcher.
Once upon a time, I had some links to stories that told his side of the situation but they have long since gone dead. For those not familiar, ML had been the regular centerfielder at CS Fullerton who came in as the closer at the end of games. He said the Reds had no direct contact with him ahead of drafting him or before he reported to rooking camp.
Thus he arrived at his rookie league assignment thinking he was an OF only to be told his OF days were over because he was a pitcher now. Essentially he was told to shut up and pitch because that was what the organization needed from him and was his fast track to MLB. However he was “promised” he would get a shot at being a two way player down the line.
This scene played itself out for several years. Over the winters in SoCal, ML would work on his hitting and seek opportunities to take live pitch batting practice versus the highest level of pitching he could find. And the same conversation with the Reds would repeat when he arrived for spring camp. I guess he was told someday but today is not that day 😉
Finally in his last couple of seasons with the Reds ML got at least a partial look at being a MLB OF. He played like a 4th OF with a big arm, great OF range, occasional power, and was a strong baserunner. Who can say what he might have been as an OF had he gotten his chance to develop along with his pitching over the preceding 5 years?
But just maybe the ML we are seeing now, is the guy we might have seen with the Reds had he been given his promised legitimate shot and washed out (or not) as an OF??
I’m happy that ML’s success story reopens some discussion of his time with the Reds.
It seems a lack of communication, creative flexibility and basic stubbornness were at play.
Lorenzen was one of the most interesting players the Reds have had. Yes, his productivity was hampered by injuries….but how many Reds’ pitchers has that NOT happened to?
His story has shades of how the Reds worked with Senzel and Barrero, even going back to Chapman and Iglesias.
Throw in Peraza, Geno, India. Maybe Bob Steve and Cingrani.
Hard heads meet inflexible management compounded with poor communication.
Someone was scoffing at the idea that maybe ML didn’t want to come back to the Reds’ organization.
“Why would he?” seems like a better question.
@Harry>>> A key difference between Mikey Biceps and a current 4th OF we bump opinions about is that ML didn’t get caught looking at fastballs or fouling them off. He hit them so hard and lost them at a rate that resulted in him seeing about as few fastballs as EDLC has seen lately. 😉
I can’t help but wonder what he would have done if they had found him some PAs as he came through the minors. His MLB career HR/PA ratio turned out to be 7/147 which would put him marginally as a ~20HR guy on 400 PAs in a season,
Predictions
India comes back and the batting order is finally adjusted to make some kind of sense.
Pitchers that have their good stuff (regardless of L VS R ) get a longer leash instead of the hook.
Senzel starts hitting balls hard all over the place like a #2 draft pick. Makes everyone feel bad for criticizing his statement that he should play more.
A leader emerges and demands the helmet and cape are put away until they are back in first place. Offers a statement that “it just looks really silly to be celebrating while losing”.
Senzel starts hitting balls hard all over the place. That’s funny, he hasn’t did it consistently since in his career why would we think he would start now. With India back he should play only sparingly. If he wants at bats let him get them in Louisville.
What Larry said.
By all reports India comes back today and the Pirates have a righty pitching. Im predicting India goes back to leadoff. Ive never got a Bell lineup correct, but ill try nonetheless
India 2b
Friedl CF
McLain SS
EDLC 3b
Steer LF
Votto 1b
CES DH
Stephenson C
Benson RF
I think this is a fantastic lineup. Love to see it tonight. Especially how it’s oriented with right hand than left hand hitter on down the line all through the order. Talk about balance!
I’ve been off the grid so maybe this has been answered but I think a question is whether India and Benson just swap spots between the IL and the active roster.
If Benson goes down along with Fraiey it would be nice to get a left handed bat up.
There really are no lefty bats hitting that great that I know of. Siani is doing better but not all that good. M
Reds lineup posted:
Friedl – cf
McLain – 2b
De La Cruz – ss
Steer – 3b
Votto – 1B
CES – dh
Fairchild – lf
Benson – rf
Maile – c
Good news and not so good news. Benson in and realignment on one side of the ledger. No India on the other.
No India? Plantar fasciitis wins again? Why is this team so vague so often with injuries. Earlier it was Tuesday, then it was lets give him the off day thursday and now hes not playing again. Moose missed like 6 weeks with this. My daughter had it and it was not a 10 day deal. It was months until 100%.
Senzel DFA…Ramos up
optioned rather.