The Cincinnati Reds dropped their fifth game in a row as they lost the second game of their 3-game series at home to the Washington Nationals. Cincinnati didn’t record their first hit until the 6th inning and Andrew Abbott struggled on a day where the game wasn’t close for much of the time.
| Final | R | H | E |
|---|---|---|---|
| Washington Nationals (48-63) |
7 | 12 | 0 |
| Cincinnati Reds (59-54) |
3 | 4 | 4 |
| W: Adon (1-0) L: Abbott (6-3) | |||
| Statcast | Box Score | Game Thread | |||
After coming from behind last night, the Nationals didn’t waste much time getting ahead of the Reds on Saturday afternoon. Lane Thomas singled with one out and stole second. After a strikeout he took third base on a passed ball and then scored on a Stone Garrett double. The next inning saw two walks lead off the frame and Washington padded their lead with a sacrifice fly to make it 2-0.
While the Reds had no hits after three innings, the Nationals just kept the train rolling in the 4th. Alex Call walked to begin the inning and then scored when Michael Chavis singled to center and TJ Friedl booted the grounder. Chavis then scored on a Lane Thomas double that made it 4-0. Thomas then stole third base and scored when the throw went into left field.
Joan Adon just kept on rolling. Despite making his first start of the year in the big leagues and only his third appearance for the Nationals in 2023, he had a perfect game through five innings while striking out seven. His offense kept on rolling, too. In the 6th inning they would hit back-to-back 2-out doubles off of Andrew Abbott to make it 6-0. That would be the last of his day as he was replaced by Derek Law after allowing six runs in 5.2 innings to go along with five walks and three strikeouts. Law would strand the runner on second to keep the score at 6-0.
With two outs in the 6th inning, Luke Maile picked up Cincinnati’s first hit with a line drive single into right field. That turned the lineup over and Elly De La Cruz lined a ball back up the middle that went off of the pitchers glove and trickled towards second base but by the time the shortstop got to the ball he had no play anywhere. That turned out to be a huge play as TJ Friedl took the third pitch he saw, and the first strike, and crushed a 406-foot 3-run homer into the seats in right field to get the Reds on the board and cut the Nationals lead in half.
When the top of the 9th began the Reds replaced Derek Law with Daniel Duarte. He struck out Stone Garrett to begin the inning but then gave up back-to-back doubles as the Nationals extended their lead to 7-3.
Nationals closer Kyle Finnegan took over for the bottom of the 9th. He got a pop up to begin the inning, but walked Matt McLain with one out. It was the first walk of the day for the Reds. The next pitch ended the game as Spencer Steer grounded into a double play, giving Washington the victory for the day and for the series.
Key Moment of the Game
Washington score three runs in the top of the 4th inning to extend their lead to 5-0.
Notes Worth Noting
Four errors on the day for the Reds, but none of them led directly to runs being scored.
The Cubs beat the Braves earlier in the day and are now just one game behind Cincinnati for second place. Milwaukee’s game was not scheduled to start until after the Reds game came to an end.
Up Next for the Cincinnati Reds
Washington Nationals vs Cincinnati Reds
Sunday August 6th, 1:40pm ET
TBA vs Jake Irvin (3-5, 4.86 ERA)
A commanding one game lead on Chicago. SMH
Even Larkin was saying after the game something has to change. The lineup or whatever. This is not acceptable.
The old saying is that you can’t change 25 players (26 now) so the thing to change is the manager, oh wait…….. (switching to RoseAnne Rosannadanna font) Nevermind.
RAR was LOL on SNL.
I think that’s supposed to be Emily Litella font.
Truth be told, the Cubs are still beating our brains in.
Imagine how bad this team would be right now if the guys didn’t all love playing for Bell and weren’t willing to play really hard for him. It’s horrifying to think about how bad that team might look.
🙂
Ha. And while we’re at it, don’t ignore their losing records in the first and last months of almost every season since he was hired. He always has them ready to play!
Imagine they love hitting second playing third one day then batting eighth and playing left field the next. I also imagine how much every reliever likes pitching one inning every day thru the entire season until their arms feel like linguine in august. They play so hard they commit 4 errors while watching their manager have a meltdown under pressure. They love not having a even semi regular lineup while their manager gets his third contract in 4.5 seasons of 40 games under .500 baseball. Who knows where we would be w a real manager.
Just really bad baseball this week. Poor situational hitting, tons of errors, refusing to take a walk and poor pitching. Has India been around in the dougout? We need some leadership soon. Doesn’t look like it coming from management. Get these guys in a regular position and get the best lineup ASAP
Stop it with the India leader BS. These guys are professional ball players and don’t need a leader to succeed.They need to be accountable for their play.
Not sure where folks think the Cavalry is coming. Young guys have pulled their weight! India has been poor since June and injured. Fraley is underappreciated and injured. Stephenson has had a bad year. Votto hits 2 home runs a week and does nothing else. Starting pitching is depleted and on fumes. Greene and Lodolo havent pitched in months. Bullpen is on fumes. I want them to win but where on this roster in August are those wins coming from? This roster is 5-6 players away from being an NL Central champion capable of beating anyone not named the Braves in the playoffs. Dems da facts folks.
Haha even my bandwagon is out of gas.
Sorry man. I wanted you to be right. I bet that you would be mostly right with over 83.5 wins
Indy- I cashed out two weeks ago. I could see it coming with the bullpen. I bet a $100 and cashed out at $974. I’ll take it.
+100% Old School. The team looks like they are out of gas. No effort, no enthusiasm no hustle last night. The goal now is to stay above/at .500 for the season, which at this point is not looking good. Maybe the players are discouraged since no help came from the trade deadline? Thanks to Bell’s inept usage of the pitching staff they appear spent.
Nick Krall can’t do math. Sad…
Thinking of the late Tom Petty’s song, Free Falling.
A lackluster performance on the field and in the broadcast booth on MLB-TV. John Sadak generated no interest in the game, describing liners smacking into the corner as “another ball to left field.” There is nothing in the announcer’s handbook that says you only get excited when it’s your team bringing the action. When the Nationals pitcher had a no-hitter going, he made no attempt to bring Barry Larkin into the broadcast.
“I know it’s baseball superstition to talk about a no-hitter on your bench, but what is the opposition bench saying?”
The lack of enthusiasm struck me so hard that I turned off the sound and did my own play-by-play to bring some color to the game. This is MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL, special players making plays I can only dream of. Bring the excitement of the game to my livingroom… otherwise look for my audition tape in the mail! I have listened to the likes of Waite Hoyt and Jack Moran, Claude Sullivan and Jim McIntyre, Al Michaels, Marty and Joe… Sadak is the latest in a line of great broadcasters, start acting like it. I spent 30+ years in broadcasting, this is not just an idle rant….
>Mike…I almost always turn the volume off. Cannot stomach Jon Sadak and his endless mistakes and stories of his minor league experiences. Also don’t like Jeff Brantley and his imitation southern drawl. And when those two are paired together, the mute button is put to good use.
It’s a shame that no further moves were made by deadline while still having some pulse to win the division. The starting rotation had to be upgraded on time while waiting for reinforcements from the IL.
Nice job Reds! 5 game losing streak against the Stupid Cubs and the Washington Gnats combined! Now only one game ahead of the Cubs in the NL Central and hanging on for dear life to the 3rd Wild Card spot! 4 teams wit 54 losses including the Reds! Better turn it around quick and start winning!
Also, Reds are now 3-6 since the Reds FO “rewarded” Bell with a 3 year contact extension! Money well spent don’t you think?
I hear you.
Does anybody really like the chances tomorrow with yet another rookie pitcher,this team needed some help and Krall failed miserably. He should be ashamed of himself for that along with the Bell extension. I really don’t know when Cincinnati will see a playoff game. The team has hit a wall and Bell looks lost as ever. I was really hoping they would hang on another couple of weeks but it doesn’t appear likely now. So sad for all Reds fans especially the older one like myself ,65, and so many others on this site. Oh well 28 days until college football, huge PSU fan they look good this year.
I like PSU also. They will always be decent, but will never win a big game with James Franklin coaching.
Votto drops below the Mendoza line. I’ll give him a pass, due to his HRs. But he is borderline getting a failing grade. Let me say it that way, so as not to offend. I’ve learned to never use the word “choke” on this site. But let’s just say, the Reds are coming up short these days. Or, that we are demonstrating a lack of clutch baseball. Either will work. Bell is to blame for yesterday’s loss,..not for today’s though. But he could have tunred momentum around yesterday, had he not made a whole host of bad game decisions. Now, we are still in a tailspin. This team is too good to just lay down and quit. I hope that is not what we’re doing, at least.
I think it’s too late to change the offense this year. The players are who the players are. Hope that the pitching can turn it around and getting help from players coming off injuries
One more before I call it a night! “Undecided” might be our best SP in a while!
This slump seems different from the previous six-game slide because pitching is down, too. If the team doesn’t recover, and doesn’t make the playoffs, perhaps the only positive is that the holes will clearly be identified, all the way around, and can be rectified for next season. Hoping that’s not necessary.
No comment on our manager for the next 3 years.Same number of errors as hits is not acceptable.Too many infielders not enough outfielders,plenty in the minors like Hopkins and more not acceptable at the big league level.Guys moving all over the diamond so one person can get 4 at bats not acceptable.Lack of a long man in the pen not acceptable at this level.Home run or punch out is not acceptable.Double digit punch outs and 1 walk is not acceptable.Lack of a Vince Lombardi type to step in and ask well you know what he said is not acceptable.Playing like chumps instead of want to be champs against NATS is not acceptable.
The lack of a long man in the pen is ludicrous. The pen wouldn’t be used up if they had a guy who can throw 4 or 5 innings a game when needed.
>>>Lack of a long man in the pen not acceptable at this level.
Yes. Right on the money. We need another Hoffman, or whomever. Maybe Weaver can serve that purpose if and when they bring in somebody to replace him as a starter,…like they should have done 5 starts ago.
Perfectly stated. Great points.
Excellent critique of Nick Krall’s deadline approach.
https://www.yahoo.com/sports/cincinnati-reds-hope-avoid-losing-185447417.html
It still sort of blows my mind how many Reds fans were talking about being glad the Reds weren’t willing to “overpay” or “mortgage the future,” as if we can just sort of assume this team will be making the playoffs every season for the next several years, so we can afford to let this opportunity slip away rather than give up a few top-30 prospects and perhaps even a top-five prospect. “It isn’t going to be enough,” many of them said. “I’m glad Krall stayed put rather than overpay.” But enough for WHAT? A couple decent pitchers would surely have been enough to make the Reds the favorite to win the division, and at least get in as a wildcard. Are we all so spoiled now that we’re not interested in being in the playoffs unless the Reds are favored to win it all?
And we all know the Reds should have plenty of money to spend in the off-season (even more than anticipated due to the much higher than expected attendance), and can easily afford to add a couple very good free agents to go along with the core of young players and anyone acquired in trades signed beyond 2023. This team was in an excellent position to make the playoffs this season without having to “mortgage the future.” Krall (or someone) just completely blew it. I kept jokingly saying they couldn’t make a deal until five seconds before the deadline because there’s no sense of urgency, but it really didn’t seem possible that nothing would happen that day.
Was I in favor of giving up Marte for a two month rental? No. But there were surely lots of lesser deals that could have been made, and Krall seems to have been paralyzed in a way other GMs weren’t. The Reds didn’t need an ace; they needed two or three halfway decent major league pitchers. Everyone who was paying attention could anticipate this was going to be an issue. I’d been yammering about it for at least a month. I lost track of how many times I’d complained about Weaver continuing to make starts for a team fighting for a playoff spot.
I agree. I suspect this winter, when Nick Krall fails to sign a decent free agent, the same people will say “we have all we need” or “keep to the plan”.
It also baffles me that people think this team is going to be around for many years to come. Perhaps, the Reds could keep this core together if this was 1972. But the Castellinis are not going to sign all these Rookies to long term contracts. They may sign one of them to an extension, the rest will be traded before they hit their fourth or fifth year.
What concerns me more than Krall not being able to sign a decent free agent is that he’ll feel obligated to sign *someone* expensive, because everyone will know there’s lots of money available, and it would look terrible if they don’t at least sign *someone* expensive. Maybe it will turn out great, but he’s just not been a very good judge of what to do when he’s got money to spend. Minor, Pham, Myers, etc. They’re paying $3 million to Casali, who’s basically given them nothing other than perhaps some “leadership” that isn’t provided by the coaching staff. Spending $2 million on Weaver was a complete waste of $2 million, and there really wasn’t any good reason to expect otherwise. Krall was also instrumental and doing the Moose and Shogo deals.
Wasting the team’s money doesn’t really bother me, per se, because it’s not my money, but we all know what happens when Bell has an expensive guy on the roster. Moose HAD to play. Minor HAD to play. Myers HAD to play. Pham HAD to hit third every day. Even Weaver HAD to play, and Casali HAD to stay on the roster. So, what happens if Krall goes out and spends a zillion dollars to get a guy who was good in the past, but now turns out to be well past his prime? That guy is going to play, almost every day (or pitch every fifth day), until he mercifully gets injured.
I’m almost more concerned about the team spending a lot of money than I am about the team not spending money. I’m not sure which worries me more.
Interesting article.
Krall is going to have to live up to his failure and have the guts to admit he screwed up, not admitting his mistake will only make it worse.
Boy, one game the pitching falls apart and the next game, the hitting falls apart. I just wish they could both fall apart in the same game to get it out of their system………..oh wait.
The one thing that irritates me is if the Reds were only going to make one trade at the deadline, then don’t make a trade. I would rather have had them keep Boyle than Moll. There should have been more trades to go with that.
And thank the Lord we got that first walk in the 9th. That’s when we really needed it. Just like yesterday. Let’s wait to the 9th and steal a base. No idea what they are doing.
Well I thought they’d get in and probably play on the road and lose 2 both games, but that’s not looking likely
Everyone seemed to think we need pitching in the off-season, but maybe it’s offense? There isn’t squat out there with FA hitters. Bellinger and Rhys Hopkins and if someone steals Cody away it won’t be us. We can’t afford him now. Hoskins is very interesting to me because he’ll definitely take a walk, but then you have the awkward Joey/CES situation all over again.
I haven’t studied Hoskins #s or anything, but that seems like a scary scary lineup with all our maturing hitters. I’d rather have a big slugger then one high priced starter.
Seeing the putrid FA list made me think maybe we should audition India to keep his job here? Put him back at leadoff and see what happens. Can we work Marte in too? We need some auditions. I expected more out of CES, but he’s learning. I think they can field a good rotation, but need to see who can phase into the pen.
My vote would be Hoskins and 2 relievers, letting Votto and India walk
his job here.
Typing on my phone….ughhh
What we really needed was an experienced and proven manager to be hired in the offseason to bring along this young group of very talented players. What we didn’t need is the guy they just re-signed to a three-year extension. Bell was just fine with little talent to work with, a bunch of over the hill vets and no expectations. However, as as soon as the pressure started to build based on expectations his teams have played very poorly and are obviously playing very tight. Like I said when they signed him, he’s an okay manager for the kind of team we had before this year, but he’s not a good manager when you’re trying to make the post season/ play well in the playoffs and win a World Series. His teams are never going to perform when the pressure is ramped up…just as simple as that. It’s fairly obvious when you watch his teams play and the decisions he makes when the games get bigger. And if you honestly scrutinize how they’ve played when the pressure increased versus Milwaukee and when the pennant race tightened up also with the Cubs heading to Chicago his teams have played exceptionally poorly in all aspects since then.
Bingo!!! I’m not sure how much a good manager costs,..but that is where we should have put the money first. Bell is NOT the man. We’ve all known that for years. Then Krall gives him 3 more years. BIG mistake that totally erases Krall’s good trade moves. He’s back to average at best as a GM. Bell is a huge mistake, and 90% of the fan base recognized that a long time ago.
I got add many other smaller points but the comment very well summarizes why David Bell is not the man. At times like these I will occasionally listen to his post presser to search for anything new. Here it is: “Zero concern with this team. Continue to play harder and work. These are doing things so exceptionally that I have never seen before.” Who? What? I’m just kidding myself.
The Mets, Dodgers and Yankees will drive up the price of pitching this off-season. Not that I think the Castellinis would spend the money anyway.
I disagree with this narrative emerging that Krall didnt do enough at the deadline. Sure, i d like to have Lorenzen. Yes…Id like to have another bullpen arm….BUT
‘
Is this team truly 1 or 2 players away from being a Contender to beat the Braves to win a World Series? No way. Lorenzen might have helped Thursday. A good bullpen arm might have helped today down 4-0 to rescue Abbott.
This team wasnt 1-2 players away from being a juggernaut. It’s 5-6 away. Sorry to break the bad news. There’s 7-8 guys that are the weak links in the chain including core guys like India and Stephenson and Votto plus young guys who are up and down plus injuries. The roster aint there to win,
I disagree, The Guardians gave up Civale for the 37th MLB prospect and arroyo at 28th we kept when the infield is blocked with our current rookies. It also send the attitude, regardless of “we believe in our” group crap, that the organization is not serious about winning. They will be happy with a sustainable 2nd or 3rd place team as long as it fills most of the seats.
Doesn’t have to be all-in. I got divorced and dang sure wasn’t looking for Miss Right immediately after that, but I wasn’t signing up to be a monk either. Finnegan looks like a bulldog out there. He could’ve helped and then give him 2 more years.
Back to Hoskins. Lifetime .924 vs lhp and .820 vs righties. A 1.090 ops in GABP with 8 bombs in 59 at-bats. That’s my vote! He’d give the lineup some serious balance.
Rotation of : Greene, Ashcraft, Abbott, Lowder, and one of the talented kids.
Audition Lodolo too…asap. if he’s going to keep throwing 85 pitches by the 4th then he’s my Andrew Miller
I would go with Hoskins. I would like a guy who is in the lineup every day. He hits lefties and righties. I’m tired of this guy can’t hit righties or lefties and has to sit.
So the Reds should never make moves to bolster their playoff chances unless they’re confident they can win the World Series? Is that really the way this organization should be approaching playoff opportunities?
By this logic, the Nationals shouldn’t even have bothered playing this series because they had no chance to win it.
This is baseball. It’s a sport where luck can play a huge role in a short series. Over the course of a season, luck sort of evens out and the most talented teams usually make the playoffs, but once you’re in the playoffs, anything can happen. The 1990 Reds supposedly had no chance whatsoever to beat the team they swept in the World Series. Billy Hatcher hit .750 in that series. Weird things can happen in the playoffs, and the Reds should have tried harder to get in.
Oh boy…here we go with the all or nothing crowd. So I’ll play that game. Name your trades that would have won the World Series because there aren’t any. Yes, a Lorenzish type and another good bullpen arm would have helped……but neither would have solved India being bad and hurt,,,, Fraley being hurt….Stephenson being bad…..Sims being erratic….Senzel and Newman being below average….Elly being hot and cold…..Abbott hitting his innings limit….Lively injured and doing nothing….weaver stinking…..Williamson with the air ball after 3 innings….Greene and Lodolo missing 2 months and not pitching …..and that doesnt even get into the bullpen arms like Farmer, duarte, etc who arent good.
ITs a roster issue in august
Well I would’ve argued 5 days ago that all these other teams have holes too, but
the Reds suck like they always suck. Get 2 different 3 run leads in the Cubs and get down 20-5 or whatever. That’s only 18 unanswered runs. Now they can’t beat the Nats. Can I get a refund for $83 for the nose bleed seats loss with Zac River zBrown Band or whoever they are?
I want a refund on account of temporary insanity
The Phillies, Brewers, Cubs, Marlins, Diamondbacks, Giants, Padres, and Dodgers all decided to improve even though they’ve all got holes and don’t seem to be as good as the Braves. That’s what teams do when they want to give themselves a fighting chance. The Reds were a first place team when they decided not to do what every other first place (and some second and third place) teams did. Can most of those GMs honestly say they expect to play in the WS this year? No. Most don’t expect to be there. But they’re at least going to try.
Everyone seems to forget the most recent NL World Series entrants. In 2021, the Braves were at 500 on August 1, just lost Acuna for the remainder of the year, and made 6 trades for has beens like Peterson, DuVall, Rosario, etc.. In 2022, the Phillies finished 3rd in their Division and won a whopping 87 games …..12 games over 500. Just 2 shy where we were on August 1 and 10 wins better than teams like the Cubs, Padres, Angels, and Marlins who decided they were still in it but needed to fill some holes. No question the Reds had holes but obviously not as many as Cubbies or the Brewers as we were in the catbird seat. Neither of these teams added any great pieces that cost them any serious prospects. Gosh, I wanted Scherzer for Arroyo but I think Lorenzen orFlahertyfor Stoudt would have been helpful considering we were missing Greeneand rolling out Weaver every 5 th day. 4-5 extra wins by Lorenzen might have been enough to run the Dodgers down but that is for another day. We didnt trade Stoudt or Richardson or Barerro in the name of “the future”. Other teams did trade their Stoudt or Richardson just to see if they could get in including some teams (Cubs) who were no better than 500. 10 games over 500 …..86-76….could very well gets you in!! And with one easy hole to patch (Weaver), 13-14 games over is probably a slam dunk. Yes, everyone of these playoff contenders have losing streaks of 4-5-6 games and we have had a few. But when you are 10 games over on August1, and fail to maintain it, it either boils down to you were over rated or you sure didn’t patch your holes very well. Time will tell. But for now,I sure feel a lot better blaming Krall, Weaver, and an overworked bullpen. All of which could have been fixed like other teams did. Overrated is harder to fix.
Big LIKE button on your post Rob.
I agree OS. This team could continue to surprise but with the Cubs surging and the Brewers playing well, it’s a tough ask. If they can’t beat the Nats, beating anyone else will be difficult.
Old school has this one correct – it’s an exciting and unexpected season, but the roller coaster is very predictable – there are no established stars in their prime, there are some overproducing, some producing well in limited/platoon roles, and some faltering or recovering but not performing at peak.
All of which is this team. Would better field management help? Sure, but how much – a few games, and yes that can mean playoffs or not. Would it get to the pennant or WS? Very unlikely.
The only qualifier I’d make is the old standard that pitching wins short series – best recent example is the 2020 vs. the Braves. The positive is this season they have enough young pitchers that one or two could get hot at the right time.
Still – they have lots of hole to fill, but at least they now have lots of parts to fill them.
I agree, to some extent. But I do think we are one competent manager away from making the play-offs with what we already have on this team (when we get Lodolo and Greene back) and what we still have in the Minors. To compete with the Braves, we need a couple more pitching aces and a dependable offensive player or two with experience.
Agree 100%
It’s sad a week ago we were talking playoffs and now most of the discussion is next season. Oh how fast times can change, however with this team as currently constructed and with Bell as the manager it was bound to happen. Even when they were winning more I told my wife, as we watched every game, that they would some day fall and fall fast for more reasons than I feel like typing, Bell # 1.
Mark you are correct and add Johnson the pitching coach. SO many 0-2 counts that turn into walks due to nibbling or the high fastball. That trick is done as the word is out. Also our relievers should be used for more than 1 inning much more than they are. The wear and tear from 10-15 more pitches in an outing but having a day between outings is huge, versus the high appearances they make.
Idk man? 2nd big fade in 3 years with 100 losses in the middle. That’s bad and reflects poorly on Bell, but I’m pretty certain he’s not telling them to expand the zone and refuse to walk. Pitchers go out there and walk the leadoff man.
RLN is on him nonstop about the 1 inning stints, but you saw Diaz yesterday. He pulls the starters too quickly…well Abbott just helped them add-on and end the game. There is a reason he’s been doing what he’s doing with the pitching. Half the starters only have 2 pitches and try to K everyone. If they could go 6-7 often then I’m sure Bell wouldn’t object
It’s a team philosophy to only let guys pitch an inning or so. Players can be trained to pitch longer, if it’s your philosophy from the start. How do you think starters go from 2 to 3 to 5 to 6 innings in the Spring? You train relievers to go from 1 to 2.
You are using a result to prove your point instead of looking for the cause.
I just hope and pray the Reds front office is willing to buy the rest of Bell’s contract out if this year fades into the tank and next year starts off poorly. I wouldn’t think his contract would be so much that it would be that hard to buy it out knowing that if they don’t they’ll lose the goodwill and momentum they built up with the fans. If that happens all these huge crowds will disappear and I would think that would more than make up for eating Bell’s contract. I just hope they’re smart enough to realize they can’t stick with Bell if it’s not working and just piss away 3 years with a great nucleus of players that should be building towards a World Series. I wish I had faith in them when it comes to this situation but I’ve been through too many stupid ownership decisions and just the fact that they extended him for 3 years based on basically nothing really makes no sense. The one time Bell got the Reds into real playoff contention through late August 2021 they had an epic meltdown in September with a very favorable schedule…losing 18 of 27 against sub .500 teams to fade away down the stretch. That is Bell’s history, those are the facts. History is starting to repeat itself again.
I felt the same. We were winning too many games by the skin of our teeth. No blow outs. We are/were good,..but lucky. Also, the management put us behind the 8 ball by insisting on leaving the young tlent in the Minors for too many games while we watched Myers K time after time, game after game. We could have won a lot of those early games (with Lodolo and Greene) had we had the team we have up now. And we would be sitting a lot prettier than we are now. Games early in the season mean just as much as games at the end of the season. A win back then counts the same as a win now.
The thing I don’t understand, and I’m asking this honestly, is what makes Bell so bad as a manager to some folks on this site? When I look at the situation, I see the players underperforming. Maybe it’s both? I don’t know.
It’s poor fundamentals year after year after year. Oh but they’re a young team. True except they had poor fundamentals with Bells retread rosters too. Guys can’t hit a simple groundball or sac fly with a man on 3rd 1 out. Even when it’s early and the infield is back. Maile had a big fail in Wrigley in that situation. Baserunning is better atleast. Not just speed wise, but we’ve cut down on the giveaway outs. All managers importance is overrated imo
Overrated yes, but the areas where they can make the difference, mental mistakes, discipline, situational awareness, etc. are the areas where Bell seems to come up lacking time after time year after year.
A team doesn’t have to have physical talent to play a mentally sharp fundamentally sound game, so there is no out for him in these areas.
Exactly Jim.
I can’t believe people aren’t seeing these things.
It doesn’t take talent to play sharp and focused. But it does take a leader to instill it into the players.
I don’t think he’s been a bad manager overall. He deserves some credit for this season. The positive attitude and no quit attitude is a reflection of leadership. But mistakes like the ones in Friday night’s games doesn’t win him any fans. In case you missed it – using Benson as a pinch runner in the 7th? Inning for CES while leaving Votto, Newman, and Senzel to bat in the 8th/9th vs wrong handed pitchers; Diaz is their best reliever and has had a large workload this season – no way he should be pitching 2 innings. Could have pulled Ashcraft in the 8th after a man reached, etc etc.
I think Bell makes a ton of terrible strategic decisions, but I also think a lot of the poor play is a reflection of his “do whatever you want” management style, in which players are basically left to decide for themselves when to take a pitch, when to steal, when to bunt, etc. I don’t think most players see it as in their own personal interests to learn skills like bunting, hitting the other way to move a guy over, hitting sac flies when needed, shortening their swings with two strikes, forcing the pitcher to throw extra pitches, stealing bases when the team really needs it (rather than whenever they happen to think they can make it), etc. Players don’t get to wear viking outfits or pose for pictures after doing any of those things, nobody shows clips of those things on social media, and teams don’t give huge contracts to guys who know how to move a runner over or hit a fly ball. Players are basically trying to market themselves, and sometimes this comes at the expense of the team.
I’m sure this happens with every team, but I believe some managers will at least ask their players to take a pitch now and then, try a squeeze play, try a hit-and-run, demand that they steal on the first or second pitch, etc. In other words, ask the players to do something they might not want to do because it’s not going to result in a home run and could make them look bad.
Some managers also probably demand that their players attempt to play smart, which would mean, for example, when you’re down by 4 runs in the 9th inning and the guy ahead of you just walked with one out, don’t swing at the first pitch. Force the pitcher to throw at least two more pitches before the game ends. I think other managers would tell Steer he made a mistake there. Some might even raise their voice at him. I think Bell says “well, he thought he’d get a good pitch to hit, so I can’t fault him.” I think Bell goes out of his way to justify whatever the players feel like doing.
I can’t speak for everyone, but those are my main issues with him. When I see practically the entire team suddenly unable to get any kind of clutch hit, hardly anyone walking, a lot of very short at-bats, they’re striking out all over the place, and they can’t possibly score a run unless someone homers, this all tells me there’s a systemic problem and not just a few players who happen to be slumping at the moment. When you’ve seen the guy ahead of you walk and you’re not the tying run, you HAVE to take a pitch even if you feel you can get a hit. But on Bell’s team, you don’t have to do anything you don’t feel like doing.
Interesting points, J. I think what I’m hearing you say is Bell is too tolerant, too permissive, and wants to be a “players’ coach.” I’m in no way a fan of excessive tolerance/permissiveness and a coaching style that lacks the teaching of fundamental skills. As a middle school teacher, I see that brand of ‘leadership’ from other teachers on a daily basis, and can assuredly say that it flat out does not work. Not even close. I hope thats not what Bell’s really like or we’re in trouble. Thanks for your response.
J,
Your observations are spot on about this Red’s team and manager.
Wow. @J! Well said and thorough regarding David Bell. Is used to be that a player’s coach was someone who knew how to make a player better at his game. That is not true when talking about this manager. No discipline or appreciation for fine points of the game at all.
RS,
You’re quite welcome. People have argued with me about this, claiming I have no evidence that Bell is too permissive or never gets mad at players. They say “you don’t know what he says in private, or how he acts behind closed doors.” That’s true, but I think there’s a lot of evidence suggesting he’s very relaxed about everything. When his public response after these games, for example, is to say he has “no concerns,” that doesn’t give me a lot of confidence that he’s privately letting the players know he’s very upset about what he’s been seeing on the field. I mean, he’s not even willing to say “yeah, we’ve been playing badly, and we need to get the bad stuff cleaned up or we’ll be out of this thing pretty soon.” He just says they just need to keep playing hard and everything will be fine.
We never catch him looking the slightest bit upset at any players. no matter what they’ve done. I don’t remember even seeing him having a chat with a player after a particularly dumb play on the field. He never takes anyone out of a game after a dumb or lazy play. He doesn’t seem to sit guys the day after they’d made dumb plays the day before. There never seems to be any “message” being sent to anyone.
But the biggest piece of evidence is simply the fact that almost nobody on Bell’s teams seems to know how to play fundamentally sound baseball unless they’ve come from another organization. Other than Friedl, nobody on this team seems to know how to bunt well enough to lay one down for a hit. Elly is the fastest guy in the world and he doesn’t even FAKE a bunt now and then — I guess because nobody believes he knows how to bunt. How long does it take to learn how to bunt?! How many times is Elly going to ground out to first base before someone says “you know, if you forced the first baseman to play in all the time, you could get a lot of balls by him.” Nobody seems to shorten their swings with two strikes. They don’t seem to know how to advance runners or hit a sacrifice fly. It’s just stunning to me that Newman is second on this team in sacrifice flies (with five). How can that possibly be? He’s often been hitting leadoff and only has 241 plate appearances. Friedl has 360 PA’s and a grand total of one sac fly. Stephenson has 393 PA’s and a grand total of one sac fly. India leads the team with 6 sac flies, but he’s had 200 more PA’s than Newman and has usually been hitting 3rd or 5th. Fraley has 327 PA’s and one sac fly.
And on and on it goes. Newman is certainly not as good in terms of hitting home runs and doubles and stealing bases and whatnot (and his defense certainly leaves a lot to be desired), but he consistently gives professional at-bats. He’s clearly NOT trying to hit home runs every at-bat. When the team needs a fly ball, he’s often able to produce it. He seems to be lot less likely to strike out in those just-put-the-ball-in-play types of situations than a lot of other Reds. Now, maybe it’s purely coincidence that he spent his formative years under a different manager and coaching staff, but it seems awfully coincidental that Bell just happens to have had all these guys playing for him who strike out a ton, don’t walk very much, don’t know how to bunt, don’t know how to advance a runner, don’t force the pitcher to throw a lot of pitches, don’t know how to hit a sac fly, etc.
My theory is pretty simple: he doesn’t insist they learn how to do any of these things, so they don’t. They just work on hitting more doubles and homers. Supposedly they all love to play hard for Bell, but it seems like some of them would know how to bunt or hit a sacrifice fly or shorten their swings and just try to put the ball in play if their manager were demanding it. I don’t see evidence of it. I see a few players who came to the team knowing how to do some of these things, and some guys have developed into really good hitters in terms of doubles and homers and running the bases, but I don’t see guys learning how to do the “little things” that are hard and don’t really help the player market himself.
J, I’m with you on what you said except for one point, and I’m responding as a teacher: I find there is no reason to get upset or angry about anything my students do or don’t do, but there is a need to ride their asses to get them to perform at the highest level possible. Same goes for coaching/managing, and I’ve done that, too.
Spot on. To add to that Ill go back to a few weeks ago when Elly ran us out of the inning in (i believe) Milwaukee. It was a backbreaking mistake at a crucial time. When he came back into the dugout you could see David Bell avoid eye contact w him. He is a 22 ye old budding star who gets ahead of hisself at times and needs reeled in. In that moment you could see that it will never be David Bell who does that for him. He is a players manager to a fault. You have to at least sort of fear the manager taking you by the collar and talking sense into you. Its only going to get worse. He will put an again Votto in the lineup day after day when the entire planet can tell he needs to play every other day. The entire planet also can see EDC is not a leadoff hitter yet Bell will put him there night after night while his batting average sinks lower and lower. He has no hunches, no instincts or any sort of resourcefulness to be a quality manager. Yet he is on his 3rd contract in 4.5 years.
So in all of sports you don’t think the manager or coach has a lot to do with players playing loose with confidence resulring in them playing well…. or on the flip side playing tight, without confidence and therefore playing poorly? I always looked at the best coaches and managers as those who were able to get their players to play well when the pressure increased….and the reverse when players and teams who collapsed when the games start to mean more and the pressure increases.
Greene 2.2 innings gave up a run after he left on an error walked 1 and struck out 1.Gutierrez went 2 innings no runs with 2 walks and 2 strike outs.
Bats up 5-1 and Barrero with two hits including his 9th homer.Reynolds has 3 hits.
It’s amazing what playing every day does for a player’s hitting. Oh, wait Barrero sucks and needs to be DFA’d. That’s what many here think.
OK, Roger, I’m going to bring this up: Don’t all of the hitters do better against AAA pitchers? Then they get to the Bigs and their numbers drop, some like rocks?
For a team that is still very much in a pennant race and playing in front of a crowd of 41,000, I thought the players looked uninspired and lifeless. Why?
The problem with the offense is they refuse to make adjustments at the plate. The problem with the pitching, besides injuries, is their inability to effectively locate pitches in the strike zone without putting it the sweet spot for hitters. The other issue is fatigue. That is obvious with Abbott. I don’t see him making many more starts. That will be another pitcher to replace in the rotation.
I’m not giving up on them yet, but this is not the same team that we were giving high-fives over just a few weeks ago.
Antone in 1 inning gives up a hit and no runs.Throwing fastball at 94.
Looking at some numbers tonight got me wondering, how much is Joey’s swinging for the fences motivated by his desire to overtake Bench and Walker. And if so, does he expect to return next year? Personally, I think his last couple of years have tarnished his HoF case. But, we’ve all chased something at some point and all too often looked stupid doing so.
I think he’s just decided he can’t be the OBP guy he used to be, and, for whatever reason, decided to reinvent himself as a power hitter. Maybe it’s based on a desire to reach some specific goal, but my hunch is it’s more like “I’ve got to find some way to stay relevant even without a high OBP.” I think we’ve also seen his personalty change quite a bit in recent years. He seems very determined to have a lot of fun now, and I think he’s sort of having fun trying to see how many home runs he can hit and how far he can hit them. He spent most of his career working very hard to get on base every at-bat, and now, as the old man of the group, nearing the end, he’s decided to just have some fun.
That’s an interesting take that I’ve never really thought of and you might be dead on.
Herget and Santllian with an inning a piece no runs.
Santillian at 97.6 on his fastball.Is he a long man?Barrero OPS at 933.
Craig the GOAT Counsell is 3 outs away from losing to Pittsburgh again at home.
Maybe Milwaukee just has weak hitters.
Idk? A managers influence is hard to define in MLB. They looked extremely flat with no energy, but everyone looks that way when they’re being no-hit. I did notice Pittsburgh was playing really hard last week vs Philly, but they were getting guys on and scoring. If we don’t start drawing walks and spraying the ball around then they’ll continue to look flat.
Milw tied it. Scored the guy from 3rd with one out which we can’t do. Counsell emphasizes scoring while Bell is secretly playing Tetris on his phone
Yeah, their rookie worked the count and then just hit a line drive to tie it. Most of our guys would probably have been swinging for the fences in that situation, thinking about that walk-off home run celebration. This is how you win even if you don’t have many guys who can hit the ball 450 feet.
@J, Well, wouldn’t you want to sport that magnificent viking helmet for all to see? C’mon!
Milwaukee DOES have weak hitters. I’m sure they would trade their hitters for the Reds’ hitters in a heartbeat. If the Reds just had better pitching (and better managing), they’d run away with this division.
My point is that RLN gets all worked up over something that probably doesn’t matter as much as your 3rd starter. Bell screws up, but nobody but me and maybe a few unnamed company men noticed that he had Votto in the lineup vs Smyly the other night despite being 1-13. He hit 2 hrs even though we got killed. Bell did pretty well in that LA series. We almost swept them
“But there’s no accountability”
How do they know? Bug the clubhouse? These are unknowns. Dusty didn’t pick up bases and throw them. This is a softer world we live in now. Participation trophies run amok. Nobody is doing these things Bell supposedly doesn’t do
I will say he’s slower then slow when it comes to changing up lineups & mixing things up etc. India 3rd Benson 8th or 9th? Just tell them we’re doing this or that for the good of the team. End of story. The offended party will get over it
Regarding accountability….There’s evidence there is none because the same bad habits keep happening time and time again. Maybe something is said….we don’t know. But we see the same mistakes happening, then the guys that are making the mistakes aren’t benched. I’m talking about throwing to the wrong base (Friedl/Fraly/Senzel/Benson), or not smart baserunning (Fraly/Senzel).
Physical mistakes (errors) happen…..They are harder to coach, but can still be held accountable. I’m talking about plate discipline and bullpen walks. Bullpen walks seem to be a Reds coaching philosophy of not challenging hitters and trying to strikeout every batter
To indy red man, you know Bell doesnt do those things because his players make the same mistakes time and time again. We dont need to be in the clubhouse to see the results on the field. Its a results based business and its right in front of your eyes that he is like the parent that lets the kids do as they want. I feel like if the Reds wouldve given him one of those personality assesments they would see that leadership is not his strong quality. Is what it is. We have seen the same thing w him for almost 5 years now.
I’ve said it many times on here. Craig counsel is a top 5 manager in all of baseball.
He’s supportive but when you screw up or aren’t focused he lets you know about it. Just ask matt bush. He’s ok with you making an out but he does not put up with errors from players or walks from relief pitchers.
Right moves can turn out wrong.Wrong moves can turn out right yet there still wrong.Can somebody say WILD THING.Haven’t seen him back up and Casali hasn’t been the same since.
2 out walk off hit for Milw. Stuey could’ve walked it off yesterday, but couldn’t make contact. Our guys choke. Just like Weaver. Ok, you K’d the guy and he reached base. So what? 2 outs and a man on 1B. No reason to completely meltdown
India had a good weekend im told by my daughter and wife who are india fans and on social media
He got engaged
The rest of the Reds were not “engaged” in todays game . Too many K’s and no strike zone discipline once again.
@Old said “Not sure where folks think the Calvary is coming.”
The pitchers that threw in AAA today are the going to lead that charge. Greene is 15 days away, Antone, and Gutierrez are probably on a similar time table. At this point all we can do is hope, since the trade deadline came, and went with little help to the Reds.
Greene, Abbott, Ashcraft makes a solid 1,2,3 with Williamson, and Phillips rounding out the rotation. Lively, and Lodolo could become factors again when they return.
Diaz, Young, Sims, Farmer, Moll, and Gibaut are a solid 6. Antone, Gutierrez, and Santillan have a chance to take some of the burden off of them.
Position player wise, they just promoted Hopkins who has been crushing all year. I think he’ll help the lineup if used. Marte, Barrero, Ramos, Siani, and Robinson are looking good in AAA if we have an injury pop up.
They need to tread water for 2 more weeks, so the reinforcements lead the charge into the playoffs, or not… Who Knows?
I don’t think we will see anyone and guitti in LOuisville much longer. Relief pitchers aren’t building up arm strength. As soon as they can go back to back nights and bounce back from it ok – this will be the sign of impending call-up. Might even be this week for 2 of them.
Several guys in bullpen are toast and need a break. Gibault, Cruz, Sims and young all need a blow.
But hey we didn’t need help at the deadline. We needed to stash the 100 IF prospects we have while having a very controllable roster for the next 6 years :). Go ahead disagree. You’re wrong. Prospects have one job. Add value. That’s either as a player for you or to use in trades for desirable players. If the plan is to trade some of these ML guys with 2 years of control to maximize their return, we can afford to trade a few guys. If trading a few guys blows up the “plan”……the plan isn’t very strong.
I dunno…I just think management did not expect the Reds to compete this year. They are looking down the road 1-2 years out. They will have some contracts off the books next year which should help them make some moves. And they still have a lot of talent in the minors that will hopefully be available to supplement the young core they already have. I think they got down to the trade deadline and decided to stick to that longer term plan. The one where they win using homegrown talent. They got burned a few years back going and signing higher priced free agents and I do not think they have forgotten that lesson. It is not that I expect them to totally forego trades and free agent signings. I just think they are going to be very careful with it.
Brewers pull it out. Now lead the Reds by 1.5 and the Cubs by 2.5. I’m not sure they can tread water until Greene and company arrive. We may be watching whether the Cards have caught them by then
It has been a better than expected year which is good. But I think this year is done. I don’t care if they lose but the way the games are being lost is very disheartening
Some thoughts:
1) This is quickly resembling a repeat of 2021. Both seasons involved a winning team going into the deadline needing reinforcements and management giving them very little. The main difference being that 2021’s collapse came in September.
2) Veteran leadership? We all know that there is no veteran leadership on the pitching staff. No Gray, Cueto, etc. On the hitting side, I think it’s pretty obvious to most by now that Votto’s not the type of leader to energize the clubhouse, call out young players, whatever. The two self-proclaimed leaders, India and Stephenson, have certainly struggled on the field this year (two years now for India). I’m starting to think that acquiring a proven catcher that can hit and defend behind the plate is a must this winter. As for the leadership issue, do the Reds acquire an everyday veteran hitter for 2023 to lead the young club? Where does he play?
3) The Barrero question- What happens to Barrero this winter? Is he used as trade bait for a starting pitcher or catcher? Or does he take Senzel’s utility role on the roster as backup shortstop/CF?
I think Barrero deserves and needs a change of scenery. He should be traded for his future and for the team to get something back for him while his value would still be reasonably high assuming he finishes out the year well. Is he playing mostly center field or SS down in AAA? He needs to play somewhat regularly and obviously infield is never going to work with the Reds.
Which catcher should the acquire?
Exactly! One that can hit mlb pitching and play above average defense? Those are called all-stars. Get ready to give up 2 of your top 10 prospects and 1 young mlb player for one of them. For reference see the Sean Murphy trade.
I don’t disagree we need better catching but the cost will be steep. I think Stephenson’s development has to be the biggest disappoint me of the season. We need curt casali to retire and take over as catcher development coordinator. What we’re doing isn’t working. Guys in minors aren’t looking good either.
This is a tough time for the Reds certainly pitching wise but also offensively. Success does not usually happen overnight even when you are talented and young. Maturity along with guidance from management is needed certainly regarding getting on base and let homeruns happen as they will. The three year extension of David Bell is a fact and ownership is not going to make a change other than perhaps the slim chance of promoting him to the front office. The offseason will see more action to strengthen the pitching staff than was done at the trade deadline. Hopefully Greene will soon be back and Lodolo after that. The playoffs are still within reach. It sort of reminds me of that pennant race in 1964 between the Reds, Phillies & Cardinals and unfortunately the Cards won.
Looking at the Cubs upcoming schedule, they could very well run away with the NL central.
Yes, 15 of there next 19 are against poor teams, however only 6 are at home where they are a much better team. However right now the only team the Reds need to worry about is themselves. If things don’t change starting today they will be battling the Cardinals and Pirates for 3rd place. Looking at the line up today I don’t see much hope. If bell wanted to give Steer a day off, how about Hopkins instead of Fairchild he is not a good player and I don’t understand the time he gets.
The hitting is more of an issue than the pitching at this point. We have arms rehabbing that will soon be available and with low inning counts.
The word is out on the young Reds hitters. The are not patient hitters, they are poor at pitch recognition and are not disciplined either. They chase low and wide pitches. They do not use all fields well, except for Mclain, who does go the other way with pitches. Steer and India used to hit to right, not so much anymore which is why they both hit a lot of DP ground balls. Strand as the really new guy gets a pass on pitch selection so far but he does go to right and doesn’t try to pull everything. I am not sure he knows what they want out of him as a hitter. Power, or contact hitting.
Some of this is learning curve, but the manager, hitting coach and senior players are suppose to help out, especially given the youth on this team. I think we are 0 for 3 in that area
Bell giving Steer a day off, why not Hopkins instead of Fairchild, he is not the answer.
If the Reds can just stay within shouting distance of the Brewers for the until August 15th, then their schedule gets really tough. However, the Cubs schedule is a whole another story 15 of their next 19 are against poor clubs. The Reds just need to find a way to get back on track asap.