The Cincinnati Reds are sending two more players on rehab assignment today. Right-handed pitchers Vladimir Gutierrez and Casey Legumina are set to being rehab stints in the Arizona Complex League tonight. They’ll join right-handed reliever Tejay Antone with the club after he started his rehab assignment a few days ago (he threw a perfect inning with a strikeout in his only appearance thus far).

For Vladimir Gutierrez, it will mark the return to the mound in a game for the first time since June 3rd of last season. He threw one inning that day out of the bullpen for the Reds against the Washington Nationals. He would undergo Tommy John surgery a little more than a month later and he hasn’t been in a game since. Gutierrez had a solid rookie season in 2021 when he made 22 starts for the club and posted a 4.74 ERA (99 ERA+), but his 2022 campaign saw him eventually be removed from the rotation after eight starts and post a 7.61 ERA before finding out he needed his elbow repaired.

It has been a little over a month since Casey Legumina last took the mound for the Reds. His most recent outing was on June 20th against the Colorado Rockies. That night he allowed three runs in an inning of work. He was placed on the injured list with shoulder pain following the outing. It was only his second outing after his return from an ankle injury that was the result of taking a comebacker off of his leg against the Miami Marlins in mid-May. Prior to his outing in Colorado his ERA was 4.22 on the season, but those three runs against Colorado pushed it up to 6.17 where it sits now.

Given the difference in amount of time off, it’s likely that Legumina will require less time to return than Gutierrez. It will be interesting to see where the Reds go with Gutierrez, too. Will he rehab with the plan of using him as a reliever, or will he build up innings in an attempt to see if he can start this season?

79 Responses

  1. JayTheRed

    Really hoping Gutierez can come back. I liked his efforts from the past. With Antone it would be a miracle for him to be as good as he used to be. Here is hoping for the best though.

    • Redsvol

      good to see Guittierez coming back. Maybe between him and Antone 1 of them will make it back and provide a boost. Guitti had some movement on his pitches. I wouldn’t be surprised to see him do better in a relief role.

      Hoping Legumina can avoid the knife and stay healthy this year. I’m not sure there will be room for him once his rehab period is over.

  2. MBS

    Verlander, and Scherzer are back into the trade rumors. They said the Reds have been scouting the Mets, I wonder if Quintana is also an option? He just started his season, and has 2 good starts in a row. He is controlable into 24, and he might be the best value of the group, only 13M next season.

    • Old Big Ed

      Quintana is a lefty, and the Reds already have Abbott, Williamson and Lodolo as LH starting pitchers. They could certainly use a lefty reliever, but I don’t think Quintana would be that guy, given his contract.

      I think that they may have been scouting David Robertson, since sent to the Marlins, and Adam Ottavino, who has a player option for $6.75mm for 2024.

      • MBS

        When was the last time we had Lodolo? Seems like a long time ago, and his return seems mirky at best. If we do get all of the IL guys back in a month or so then we can figure out who goes where.

        Right now we have Weaver as our 5th starter. Some how we have made due with duck tape and some twisty ties, but that can only last for so long. Our bullpen is way over taxed because our starters can’t put up quality starts.

        Really I want Verlander with his experience in the playoffs. However Quintana would be a better option than any other pitcher dealt so far since he’s also controlable in 24. Giolito is possibly a better option for 23, but he was just a rental.

      • Old Big Ed

        Quintana’s extra year would put them at 4 lefties for next year. I don’t see them doing that, although I suppose that they could trade him in the off-season.

        Verlander has a no-trade clause, and he would likely nix a trade to Cincinnati, when LA or Dallas is an option. And the Reds don’t want to commit up to $90 million for a guy his age.

        I could see Flaherty, maybe, or Trevor Williams from the Nats. You are correct that they will likely need to start Lamentable Luke Weaver maybe 3-4 more games before Greene is back. Frankly, though, using Connor Phillips for those 3-4 starts may make the most sense.

      • MBS

        I guess we look at it a bit differently. I don’t see Williamson as a lock for the 2024 rotation. The only guys who are locks to me are Abbott, Greene, and Lodolo. If they acquire a SP now or in the offseason to lead this rotation that would leave 1 spot for Ashcraft, Williamson, Phillips, Richardson, and Lively.

        If we do get a lefty via trade, or FA then Williamson could easily fill the void of LHP in our pen. I’d probably go with Ashcraft for my 5th and keep Phillips, Richardson, and Lively as my call ups if an injury occurs, or an unexpected performance issue arises. By the end of the 24 Lowder may also become someone to consider.

        Verlander may very well nix a deal. They say he wants to go somewhere where he can win, he might look at this team and see it, or he might not. I’m not going to try, and read his mind. I do like a trio of Verlander, Abbott, Greene to get me through the playoffs.

      • Redsvol

        I kind of like the Quintana idea. You can’t have enough left handers in baseball. The Reds have capacity to add salary for this year and next.

        My only concern is Quintana hasn’t been super durable lately. Probably a sign he is close to the end.

        Mets may be willing to move him for very little if receiving team takes on the $. For every $ they get rid of between now and end of the year saves another $ in luxury tax. So if Mets jettison 6$M in salary they really save $12M off payroll this year and about $26M in 2024. Steve Cohen may be rich but he probably realizes you don’t throw good money after bad.

      • DevAJS

        I was wondering about the Verlander trade rumors as well. MLB Trade Rumors claim the Mets didn’t even have compelling enough offers to engage him about his clause. One of the comments then mentioned his salary and I just thought there is no way. Even with having an extra year, I don’t know if it would be worth giving up a lot given his age as well. Though seeing his July numbers in that story you linked does make him look a little more attractive.

  3. wkuchad

    Another trade by the Dodgers right before we face them:

    “Ken Rosenthal of The Athletic confirms that the Dodgers are set to acquire Lance Lynn and Joe Kelly from the White Sox.”

    • LarkinPhillips

      The dodgers strategy seems to be to trade for all the players and then they don’t have to worry about anyone else improving their teams with trades.

    • wkuchad

      I’ve seen the Dodgers farm system ranked in the top 3. I don’t see how that’s possible when it seems they’re trading away prospects every single year.

    • Jim Walker

      Numerous others on Twitter (X) are confirming.

  4. RedsGettingBetter

    Gutierrez had an acceptable 2021 season, I liked it. I hope the struggling 2022 have been due to elbow issues and after TJ surgery all was good and he could be in the way as when was a rookie.
    To be honest, I expect low from Legumina. Hopefully he could improve a lot in order to be a solid option out of the BP…

  5. RedsMonk65

    White Sox in the midst of a fire sale right now. Still hope the Reds are able, at the very least, to come up with some reinforcements for the bullpen–from whomever. Like many, however, I don’t want to sell the farm to achieve that …

    • Jim Walker

      Agree. At the rate things seem to be accelerating Krall may have to make his bigger moves sooner rather than later.

    • J

      I continue finding it hard to believe that not one team has been willing to make one reasonable trade to send one halfway decent pitcher to the Reds over the past month. The “no urgency” attitude permeates every level of the organization.

      • Jim Walker

        I do not discount the possibility that Krall could be going for a blockbuster deal that would remake the roster not only for the rest of 2023 but also into future seasons.

        He wants a starting pitcher with future team control plus one or more relief arms and appears to be willing to deal off his 26 man MLB roster.

        Keep an eye on his past trading partners, the M’s, Guardians, and Twins.

      • Old Big Ed

        We will never know what has been proposed and what the Reds have offered. You might hear rumors, but teams aren’t going to disclose many details.

        The wild card expansion has left a lot of teams as potential buyers, with almost all of them looking for pitching. This is a seller’s market, but the sellers are sellers for a reason, which is that their players aren’t playing very well. The White Sox are inexplicably bad, and are selling some guys worth having, and the Rockies have a few decent arms, but there really isn’t a whole lot out there.

      • Redsvol

        there is an old adage, “deadlines make deals”. Teams aren’t going to make deals until the deadline closes in. No executive wants to admit they are throwing the towel in too early to their fan-base and no GM wants to overpay for a player that is usually just a 2-3 month rental.

        I’m confident Krall will pickup at least a reliever or two. I’m not sure the price of a starting pitcher will be reasonable enough. Everyone knows the Reds prospects are good and probably everyone wants a player they couldn’t possibly get from another franchise.

        The Brewers got Santana for a player that wasn’t even that good in Arizona. I mean everyone worth their salt hits in arizona. Rentals aren’t worth serious prospect capital – unless they are Ohtani.

        Don’t give in Nick, the price will come down at 4pm on Monday!

      • Pete


        I agree completely agree, my guess is good old Nick has his trigger finger ready to go on a couple of deals. Just a matter of time and see what washes out between now and then. We probably should be patient.

      • doofus

        Agree JW. I see more the Guradians and mariners than Twins. Twins in 1st place.

        I also believe that the Tigers, White Sox and Royals may also be Krall trading partners?

        Tigers: E Rod, Lorenzen, Lange, Riley Greene. Yes, this would be a blockbuster.

        W Sox: Bummer and or Kopech.

        Royals: Barlow, Greinke, Singer.

  6. Mark A Verticchio

    No Strand again tonight, things are not going well, if you are going to bring him up for Gods sake play him.

    • Jason Franklin

      What if it means a trade of CES somewhere?

    • LT

      I saw an article somewhere stated that with CES the strategy is to give players day off in a rotating fashion. Of course match up based on opposing team SP is a factor in the decision of who to sit that day. I agree that for today game I would sit Votto and play CES. But one would argue that because of the off day yesterday Bell goes with his “regular” line up against rightie pitching today.

    • J

      Elly leading off again. India fifth again. Benson ninth again. Bell is driving me nuts again. I keep thinking one of these days he’s going to realize he needs to stop trusting his instincts and start trusting the stats, but apparently he just can’t.

      • Jason Franklin


    • DHud

      He has started in 9/10 games before tonight since being called up

    • Melvin

      Pretty sure this is at least the third game he hasn’t started since being called up. He did come in and hit a three run homer one game.

      • LarkinPhillips

        This will make the third if my count is correct.

      • DHud

        Yep you’re both correct, I missed the PH game

        Still makes 8/11 counting tonight

  7. DHud

    As much as making a splash would be fun and exciting, I really do think the reds are in a good position to not have to overplay their hand. With Greene Lodolo Antone Gutierrez all possibly coming back, they could potentially add as good or better pieces internally than with any feasible trade

    • Tim

      We must have been typing at the same time DHUD

      • DHud

        Yep. I have full faith in Krall at this point and if there’s a move to make the roster better, do it. But we can do it on our terms. And a return of Greene and Lodolo means Williamson or Lively to the pen, another upgrade

    • doofus

      Operative word is “coming back.” This is a playoff bound team at this point in the season. It needs pitching help and another decent bat. Depending upon the pitchers that have been on the 60-day injured list is just gravy. This team still needs pitching.

      • DHud

        Well yeah that’s also in the equation obviously. But I definitely think it should be considered when bargaining with other teams. Reds can be less inclined to overpay because they can fall back on rolling the dice on the “coming back” option. Also players acquired in trades aren’t guaranteed to be knock out successful either, so if price isn’t right then they can say fine, I’ll gamble with mine than pay for yours

    • Rob

      If we wait 3 weeks for these dudes to contribute, then that is a conscious choice and we need to accept he results in the interim. Even if that means additional bullpen overuse and/or falling 4-5 games behind in the standings. I have no issue trading mid level prospects to minimize this risk over the next 3-4 weeks or next 2 months. Just hate to see us not try to improve our chances.

  8. Tim

    The urgency for pitching has been somewhat tempered with the success of Abbott and Lively. Ashcraft is also starting to looks a little better and even Williamson had a good outing last time up. With the looming return of Greene and Lodolo as well as these rehab stints for relievers, I would now be shocked to see a major move. It seems like the Reds have what they are looking for in young, controllable pitching In their system. Who are they going to get whose any better without spending 20 mil a year and giving up some real talent?

    • VaRedsFan

      I wouldn’t punt another 2-3 weeks of the season by running Weaver and Duarte to the mound.

      • DHud

        That’s what, two more starts for weaver and hopefully no more than 4-5 innings from Duarte? Gamble – yes, but a gamble that many would take over making a bad deal just to say we did something

    • Redsvol

      One added component that I think gets overlooked when talking about our prospects – we can’t keep them all. MLB has some pretty tight controls over how many minor leaguers a team gets to have. In the old days, the Dodgers could have 20 extra minor leaguers because they could. Now, there is a hard cap (maybe someone knows the #?).

      Figure, we’re bringing in 17 from the draft, another 5-10 as amateur domestic free agents and another 10-15 as international free agents. Those spots have to be cleared from somewhere. I’m not sure I could find 30-40 guys in the minors that deserve to be cut. At some point, Nick is going to need to do some 2 for 1 or 3 for 1 trades or risk losing guys due to having to release someone he’d rather not. Confidan, Almonte, and Valdez look enticing but if they aren’t producing we might be better spicing up a trade with them.

    • SR

      Some high standards to say Ashcraft looks a little better. He has averaged 6 innings a start his last five games and has an ERA just over two while facing fellow playoff contenders in four of those five games. Most of the pitchers being bandied about as suitors don’t have those numbers. The mystery of why he tanked for 6 weeks is unknown but he still has more good starts than bad YTD.
      As for Williamson, going back to 6/13, his ERA is around 3.80 over last 32 innings and this number include the Baltimore game where they were able to swim across the field for nearly the entire time he was on the mound.
      Those numbers are better than average for 3 and 4 starters. Lively? His ERA is around 3.70 the last 5 starts. Then there is Abbot, who stands alone as a stud. We have four guys coming potentially off IL in next two- three weeks Greene,Casey L.,Gutierrez and Antone, plus Santillian in AAA if he rights himself, and Lodolo in late August. If two out of six- seven of those guys pan out like they threw before, we are going to have a roster issue on who to get rid of, besides Weaver.

    • Redgoggles

      Of all the options, I like Verlander or Lorenzan. Verlander, assuming we make the playoffs gives us a fighters chance. Lorenzan, just to drop Weaver into the bullpen for now, and then either stay in rotation or move to bullpen depending on the Greene/Lodolo timelines, effectiveness and innings limits/effectiveness impacting Abbott/Williamson.

      Really need starters to provide depth going down the stretch.

      And a LH reliever.

      Shouldn’t break the bank, and gives us a decent chance to both make the playoffs and possibly make some noise in the playoffs assuming our hitters use all their skills rather than HR seeking ones.

      The last 7 games of this road trip are pretty key imo.

      • DHud

        If Lorenzan gets dealt to CIN and then stuck in the bullpen he may burn the clubhouse. One of if not the only reason he looked elsewhere in FA seemed to be because the reds were unwilling to grant him his desire to pursue starting

        And Weaver to bullpen is terrifying to me. His 1st inning metrics are abysmal – doesn’t seem to me like bullpen would be a good fit but who knows ya know

      • Redgoggles

        I’m thinking the odds of Lorenzen to the bullpen are actually pretty low until (and if) the playoffs. How confident are we that Greene and Lodolo return, and Abbott and/or Williamson aren’t shut down at some point?

        I doubt Lorenzan would expect to be in any playoff rotation (and the odds of being in the Reds playoff rotation aren’t bad), and as a competitor I’m guessing that being in a race/playoff would offset being relegated to a key bullpen role for a few weeks before he seeks another starting role in free agency.

        As far as Verlander, my thinking is that ownership needs to pony up for the fan base it alienated last year. By taking on that kind of contract, it shouldn’t cost a ton of prospect capital and would provide us with a punchers chance in the playoffs with an established #1. It would also provide the “kids” with a mentor next year and hedge against further injuries.

      • Redgoggles

        The biggest takeaway in this scenario is CUT WEAVER (and save the bullpen) ASAP.

  9. Jason Franklin

    Won’t some of these rookie starters be shut down at some point to limit innings/pitches as they mature physically into the roles as MLB starters? I haven’t seen anything on this and am kinda worried. Maybe the Reds do need a veteran starter or two just to roll out there?

    • Tim

      Abbott seems to be the only SP in danger of innings limitations. The bullpen is another story. When Greene returns we could possibly see a current SP move to the pen.

      • Doc

        It has been reported multiple times that Krall has said Abbott does not have an innings limit. Are we to not believe those reports?

      • Old-school

        Derek johnson addressed abbott last week

        Yes- they are monitoring his innings.

        Yes- reds typically have a ceiling in incremental innings from prior year-20% ish

        No- johnson says its not set in stone and we will deal with it when we get there

        Yes- johnson believes more that lengthening time between starts is better than shortening innings per start

    • Jason Franklin

      Thanks for the info, my dudes. You guys are usually excellent at sharing the details.

  10. DHud

    Richardson is dealing in IND right now

    • old-school

      Wait what…Richardson is in AAA? Conner Phillips and Richardson in AAA and doing well suggests reds pitching development is working.

  11. Indy Red Man

    Graveman to Houston. I hope we do something. We’re in line to make the playoffs if everyone does their part, including Krall

  12. Tom Reeves

    More reasons why the Reds don’t need sell the farm for pitching. Certainly, if the Reds can swamp an IF prospect for an equally good pitching prospect, that’s probably a smart move. But simply selling the farm for rental players is a bad move.

    • Jason Franklin

      What’s your feelings on selling some assets for a controllable pitcher? Like Cease or JP Sears? (I know everyone says the A’s wouldn’t trade a controllable asset but the A’s are the worse).

      • old-school

        I would trade top prospects for Cease and/or Juan Soto. Soto is available and top hitter anywhere and controlled next year. Reds need a thumper they can count on anchoring the lineup.

      • Indy Red Man

        Jordan Montgomery from the Cards. Get rid of Weaver and then give Bell another lefty in the pen with Williamson when HG comes back. High leverage reliever would work too. I’d love Soto, but he probably makes $35 mil doesn’t he?

      • old-school

        votto makes $25 million plus 7 mil exit fee. Moose making $22 mil in exit fees id take Soto as a replacement as a bargain.

  13. DHud

    Sanmartin UCL surgery

    Reds’ Reiver Sanmartin Undergoes UCL Surgery

  14. jay johnson

    Totally off subject
    any opinions on Aaron Bummer and how hard would he be to get
    signed for cheap thru 25,lefty,no hr’s this season.

    • Brian Rutherford

      What does HDT stand for? I know it’s an insult but I can’t remember what it stands for.

      • Mark Moore

        Handy David Tinker

        The first being the long running obsession with handed match-ups

  15. SR

    That 3 yr renewal news will ruin your weekend.

  16. Protime

    Really, contract extension for a subpar marginal manager. In the meantime, not a single trade to improve the chances for playoff contention….