The Cincinnati Reds offense never got going on Wednesday afternoon in Milwaukee. They struggled to make much contact, striking out 18 times as they were shut out 3-0 and fell 1.5 games behind the Brewers in the division. The loss by Cincinnati wrapped up the season series between the two clubs.
| Final | R | H | E |
|---|---|---|---|
| Cincinnati Reds (56-48) | 0 | 6 | 0 |
| Milwaukee Brewers (57-46) | 3 | 9 | 1 |
| W: Peguero (2-3) L: Lively (4-6) SV: Williams (26) | |||
| Statcast | Box Score | Game Thread | |||
Milwaukee and Cincinnati both struggled to get much going early on, but the Brewers had a little something going on in the bottom of the third after a leadoff single and a 1-out double put runners on the corners. William Contreras hit a grounder to shortstop with the contact play on and Joey Wiemer sprinted for the plate, but Matt McLain fielded the ball and fired the ball home to beat him by a wide margin and Tyler Stephenson tagged him out. Ben Lively then came through with a big strikeout of Willy Adames to strand two runners on and keep the game scoreless.
Cincinnati had a golden opportunity to get on the board in the top of the 5th when Jonathan India led off with a ground-rule double. He would move up to third base on a ground out, but back-to-back strikeouts would end the inning. In the top of the 6th inning TJ Friedl missed a go-ahead home run by a matter of feet as he doubled off of the wall in center with two outs. He moved up to third on a wild pitch, but Freddy Peralta’s 13th strikeout of the game ended the inning and kept the game scoreless.
While Ben Lively wasn’t matching Peralta in the strikeout department, he continued to match him in the zero department. A 1-out single in the bottom of the 6th was erased four pitches later when Lively got Sal Frelick to ground into an inning-ending double play.
Milwaukee turned to the bullpen for the top of the 7th inning, bringing in Elvis Peguero to replace Freddy Peralta and face the middle of Cincinnati’s order. Jake Fraley led off the inning with a grounder to second base, but Brice Turang couldn’t come up with it and Fraley reached on an error. It mattered little as Fraley was caught stealing two pitches later. Joey Votto would single later in the inning, but he’d be stranded on the bases.
The Brewers finally broke through in the bottom of the 7th inning when Tyrone Taylor hit a 417-foot 2-run homer off of Lively that gave Milwaukee a 2-0 lead. After a 2-out infield single by Joey Wiemer, Reds manager David Bell headed out to the mound to make a pitching change and called on Alex Young to enter the game to face Christian Yelich. He’d get a ground out to second base to end the inning.
Cincinnati headed to the plate in the 8th inning to face Joel Payamps, who entered the game having held the Reds without a hit in 15 at-bats this season. Tyler Stephenson looked like he may have had a hit after a hard grounder wasn’t fielded cleanly by a sliding third baseman, but he recovered and fired a bullet across the infield to beat the catcher to the bag for the first out of the inning. Elly De La Cruz broke through with the first hit by a Red against Payamps, picking up a single on a line drive into right field with two outs in the inning. TJ Friedl would hit a hard grounder to first base that Owen Miller couldn’t initially come up with cleanly, but he recovered and dove to the bag to beat Friedl and end the inning.
Fernando Cruz took over for the Reds in the bottom of the 8th inning. After getting the first two hitters of the inning out, he walked Sal Frelick on four pitches. Andruw Monasterio then doubled him in to extend the Brewers lead to 3-0.
Milwaukee turned to Devin Williams for the 9th. Like Payamps, the Reds entered the inning hitless against him – they were 0-24 on the season. He kept that streak going as he retired the side in order with two strikeouts and a ground out to pick up his 26th save and seal the Brewers victory.
Key Moment of the Game
Tyrone Taylor’s 2-run home run in the 7th inning that broke a scoreless tie.
Notes Worth Noting
The Reds struck out 18 times and didn’t walk once. That’s not ideal.
TJ Friedl and Joey Votto both had two hits in the game. The rest of the team also had two hits.
Up Next for the Cincinnati Reds
Cincinnati Reds vs Los Angeles Dodgers
Friday July 28th, 10:10pm ET
Brandon Williamson (2-2, 4.60 ERA) vs Bobby Miller (6-1, 4.28 ERA)
I know a lot of people are going to want to pile on David Bell for allowing his hitters to be so undisciplined in what seemed to be an important game against a mediocre starting pitcher. But let me just say, for the record, that those people are correct.
The Reds radio announcers said he is a GOOD starting when he’s on. I think they know more than any of us.
He’s mainly been good against the Reds. Against the rest of the league, not too good. Maybe he just happens to be “on” every time he faces the Reds. Or, maybe it’s not a coincidence that a lot of people keep complaining about the Reds being “guess” hitters who lack plate discipline, and they seemed to be doing a lot of bad guessing today. I guess we’ll never know.
I do think another factor is Contreras….
It doesn’t matter who is pitching, he seems to know what pitch to ask. I think he makes the calls
Completely unbalanced “hitters” vs brewers, seemed completely vulnerable
I mean… at this point it’s really no secret that most Reds hitters aren’t interested in walking, so it’s generally smart to throw a few pitches nowhere near the strike zone and see if they’ll chase. When a guy swings at a pitch in the dirt or 2 feet outside, was that a good call by the catcher, or a bad pitch that the hitter swung at anyway? Sometimes it’s hard to say.
For the haters out there, I will state this. . .
I can’t entirely blame this on Bell. I’ve said before, the players have to learn to make the adjustments.
What people don’t listen to is the key word, “learn”. Who’s teaching them? I don’t see any adjustments being made yet.
Wasn’t there an old saying that went something like, “How a team plays is a mirror of their manager/coach?” Well. . .
Two responsibilities a manager has:
1) Make sure the players stay healthy, get time off, stay fresh, etc.
2) Set each individual player and the entire team up for success.
And the winner for the very first post in the thread is…SMH
Guy is 39 years old and needs more time off to be an effective player. He got 2 singles today. Nice. I’ve been an outspoken Votto supporter, still think he has a chance to lead the team in home runs. But he needs more time off.
Weird. I don’t remember Bell swinging the bat one time
Yep, weird.
Does the manager ever get any of the responsibility when his team, his lineups, his batting orders, his in game play calls lead to getting shut out in 4 of 7 games against the same team over a 2 week span and is completely inept offensively? Just wondering…
The Reds have now been shut out in four of their last seven games against the Brewers, which is frankly hard to comprehend. Maybe what we’re doing very consistently when it comes to the batting order, lineups etc sgould be really adjusted to attempt to get different results. For instance, our approach when we have runners on 3rd with less the two outs could be changed…maybe just try a safety squeeze for once? Their offensive ineptness versus the Brewers is kind of unbelievable considering the Brewers don’t do that to the other teams in the league. When you look at their starters ERA’s the rest of the league is obviously scoring against them just fine. The Brewers have a good pitching staff but they’re not that good…maybe try something really different if we face them in the playoffs. And why we’re at it can we please move India back to the leadoff spot where he’s proven to be his best over the last 3 years and move Elly down the order to the back half of the order where there’s less pressure on him and maybe he can start to really work on his approach at the plate to just get on base more instead of swinging for the fences all the time.
Step 1: Hire Vince McMahon
Step 2: Have him, in the most Vince McMahon-ish voice ever, tell David Bell, “You’re, FIIRRREEEEDD!!!”
Step 3: Hire the best manager possible.
Step 4: Win
Step 4a: Let Vince fire John Sadak while you’ve got him.
J: I assume that you noticed that the Reds’ hits, Elly’s bloop single aside, came from Votto, India and Friedl–guys who have been playing in MLB for awhile and have experience with pitchers who regularly paint the outside corner with knee-high 96mph pitches. McClain and Benson, two of the young hitters many of us extol for their good eyes and plate discipline, were a cumulative 0 for 7 with 7 strikeouts. The Reds are unusually reliant on young hitters and young hitters are in the middle of their learning curves. It’s vanishingly unlikely that the coaches fail to encourage patience and selectivity, but experience takes time to acquire.
Bell doesn’t “allow that.” He wants them to make contact as badly as you do. He could call for a bunt now and then if they seem to be missing everything frequently.
It’s always on the players, but I feel that the scouting reports, for the hitters weren’t as good as the Brewers had on us.
When you play a team a bunch of times over 2 weeks, you’d think that they could come up with a plan against their pitchers. If 3rd time through the order is considered dangerous, they should be able to start to figure the Brewer pitchers out when you get up to 9-10th time through the order.
“you’d think that they could come up with a plan against their pitchers”
The players wouldn’t necessarily be the ones who come up with this plan. This would more likely come from coaches and the manager. Nope, can’t blame this entirely on the players.
Having a plan and being able to execute are two different things The presence of the first does not presuppose the presence of the latter.
18 Ks didn’t work very well the last time they tried it. I guess they forgot about that.
Another superb starting pitching performance,
Another all-too-familiar unexplained BP getting two quick outs and then boom.
It has been hot around here. I’m glad they got the fans blowing.
Maybe the Reds should be trading for bats at the deadline.
Seeing 0-3 with 3Ks next to so many names on GameDay was a bit of a shock, but what flabbergasted me is how often they seem to walk Frelick and how he always seems to score because of it. Is Frelick some sort of low key masher that everyone needs to be afraid of or something?
He takes pitches and is willing to walk. That’s the biggest difference between a guy who walks and a guy who doesn’t. Pitchers don’t suddenly lose their control every time a certain guy comes to the plate. For example, Benson walks at a MUCH higher rate than Elly. It isn’t because the pitchers suddenly have worse control when they’re facing Benson. He’s just a lot more willing to take pitches that don’t look like strikes.
For now, the Reds should consider themselves VERY fortunate. Playing the Brewers is, by and large, an automatic loss for the Reds. And now? Those games are OVER, with only 1.5 games separating Cincinnati and Milwaukee.
That deficit can easily be overcome. The Reds are more talented, athletic, and dynamic than the Beers, who are an underwhelming team with a one-man offense (and even as we speak, the Brewers are headed for a rematch with the best team in baseball). The only thing that would definitely prevent the Reds from closing the gap would be more games with the Brewers — which ain’t happening any longer.
I have been pessimistic as All-Get-Out about the Reds’ slack-jaw performances against Milwaukee — but now that’s over. The dust has cleared, and the hill is only 1.5 games high. Against all odds, I am forced to be optimistic. Should we meet Milwaukee in the playoffs, then I would be pessimistic all over again (lol). Go Reds.
I’m not so concerned about being able to catch the Brewers and losing to them so often. What I am very concerned about is the way we’re losing to them. All of these one run games are like playoff games. No matter who we face in the playoffs it’s most likely going to be like this. We have to find a way to win in these type of games or it won’t matter making it to the playoffs just like in 2020 against the Braves. As of right now we’re just not prepared mentally for it. We’re not able to adjust when we need to.
I would imagine the Reds players are going to feel rejuvenated leaving the Brewers in their rear view mirror for the rest of the year after playing nine games in the past two and a half weeks against them, especially when almost every game was so difficult and mentally draining. I’m guessing the Reds players can’t wait to play other teams and hit against other pitchers, knowing they are finally done with the brew crew. I think they’re going to go 5-2 the rest of the road trip and play very well…feeling re-energized.
I’m pretty worried about the upcoming West coast trip, particularly the Dodgers. How much resilience the Reds show might be a good barometer for their prospects for the rest of the season.
Every Brewer pitcher is essentially a Cy Young candidate when they play the Reds.
And this coming road trip could well be the end of Reds being contenders in 2023. Has happened so many times in the past, and if not now the late August West Coast jaunt will probably be the death blow.
Rooting for em to prove me wrong, but have seen this show many, many times over the years.
Agree. Hoping for a different ending, but have seen this movie before. Here’s to praying they’ll write a new story.
It’s a turkey shoot for Brewers pitchers when facing the Reds. Throw offspeed stuff low and away and mix in a fast ball up in the strike zone just to keep the Reds hitters off balance. Reds hitters consistently chased and subsequently the Brewers pitchers were never forced to change the way they attacked hitters.
As painful as this is, let’s take the 1 win and get out of Milwaukee, does not matter how good their beer is.
Considering how things have played out vs the Brewer that one win felt gigantic and I’m happy to get out of there at 1-2. I was very fearful they would go 0-3 and that would feel a lot worse, so on to LA
Much better beer in Vermont. Better cheese, too.
the starting pitching has been solid for the reds for quite some time now. We need more offense somehow , someway. do you deal Hunter Greene and Lodolo for a position player or 2?
NO WAY
I remember the A’s of the 70’s.
One of the best staff’s ever.
3 championships in a row.
My main concern now is. . .
(you could literally switch this around; same worry)
It we win the division, we will probably be the 3rd seed. We will be playing the 6 seed, a WC. The Brewers?
If we win the division, it is still a great year.
We have some tweaks to make.
Elly needs to not try to hit everything to the moon
The young guns, will still have ups and downs.
But the future looks good.
Well, if the Brewers end up beating us out for the division, we know why. No sour grapes.
And some Brewers turn into silver sluggers against the Reds, too. In almost every match-up, Cincinnati turns into a half-hearted shell of itself while Milwaukee goes Super Saiyan. If there’s any hope moving forward, it’s that we don’t have to see this match-up again. The Reds can dish out speed and offense against practically any other team, and the Brewers can return to their boring brand of middling baseball against the rest of the Major Leagues. None of these match-ups are an exact science, of course, but (when not playing each other) the pace for these two teams favors the Reds. I, too, hope that the road trip goes well.
^Meant to post this comment as a reply to Rut.
That’s essentially what I said in the first game’s thread. It’s like they treat the Reds as their World Series. Even in their wins against the Reds you can tell that they aren’t really that great of a team. The Reds legitimately seem to play down to their level every single time though. I personally have no animosity against the Brewers, I honestly couldn’t care less about them. Living in St. Louis I hate the Cardinals so much more, so it’s not sour grapes on my part saying that, it is just an observation.
Confidence or the lack of it is a funny thing in sports. It can make average teams play way above their heads, but conversely make pretty good teams play very poorly. I would prefer to play anyone in the playoffs other than the Brewers because their confidence is supreme playing the Reds, while ours playing against them is non-existent.
First time against Abbott they start the game off with 3 doubles in a row.
When a couple of guys struggle at the plate at the same time, that’s baseball. When your entire lineup fails to hit and nearly all of them are behaving exactly the same way in terms or pitches they choose to swing at, this becomes a coaching issue too. I have to admit I have no idea who the hitting coach is for the Reds,but he needs to do an intervention.
Are they even talking about shortening swings, going the other way, up or back in the box closer to the plate to reach the outside of the plate, umpire strike zones and what to expect? Taking the first strike and the deficit it creates for the hitter and the edge it gives the pitcher? You can’t do the same thing and expect different outcomes but we have seen three series now in the last three weeks with the SAME hitting approach against the Brewers. and got the exact same poor results.
All the trade deadline pitching in the world won’t help unless these hitters start to respond to the scouting report on how to get them out. Playoff caliber teams have at least two starters who can spot their pitches and the Reds are going to see a steady diet of what they saw from the Bernie’s until they figure out how to attack the game plan.
Come on coaching staff. Earn your pay!
The Brewers pitchers are clearly prepped for the Reds batters. The Reds batters are clearly not prepped for the Brewers pitching. I think this goes beyond the hitting coach.
Does the Reds organization collect analyze and pass useful data to the coaching staff? If this happens, does the front office make it clear to the manager he is responsible for setting up a program to prepare the players? And does the manager enforce accountability on his staff and players to do the prep work??
All good questions Jim. We dont know the answers.
I’ve came to the conclusion that the Brewers play significantly better against the Reds because they believe that the Reds are not yet entitled to run for the division title and so they should be otherwise at the bottom along with the Pirates (and the Cards for that matter). Better luck next season.
Bell said in his postgame comments “We were not able to make the adjustment
against their pitcher” wouldn’t a good follow up question be: “Why not?”
The answer to the why not is pretty simple to me. It’s a mental game that the Reds simply cannot overcome against the Brewers this season, or any of the last few seasons. Until they can figure out the mental battle against the Brewers, they are going to lose about 90% of the time even though I believe the Reds are far more superior especially offensively. Talent is wonderful but execution is gold. For whatever reason, our mental execution against Milwaukee is terrible.
Especially when you have been shut out by them in four of seven games in less than 2 weeks
Direct quote from Counsell “They are who we thought they were” well maybe he didn’t say that but he could have.
I still think The Reds will win the division. Some teams just got the other teams number. The Pirates,of all teams , had the Dodgers number last year. It might be a blessing the season series is over. Still only a game and a half out.
I think we’re the better team too, and we don’t necessarily have to go through them to advance in the playoffs. Hopefully the Brewers fail to reach the playoff all together.
Hopefully this comment can wake the boys up. I am praying the Brewers lead could be short lived, but the Reds need to get back to being that young exciting team asap.
That was a famous quote from Dennis Greene, but inside their heads that’s what the Brewers are thinking about the Reds, or at least that’s what I’d be thinking if I were them.
I continue to be on the fence regarding an India trade, but after games like this, I do wonder about the claims that the Reds would somehow miss his leadership. What kind of leadership can there be on a team with so little plate discipline in a game like this? I think this team lacks good leadership (which ought to come from the manager, but I don’t think it does), so if it loses its “leader,” I’m not even sure what that means.
I personally was perfectly fine with the idea of an India trade as it seemed like the most logical piece to move at the moment. Though I’m starting to wonder if it wouldn’t be selling incredibly low now. He did have an RBI last night, but he’s just been really struggling at the plate recently. Maybe another team still sees his potential and is willing to “overpay” a little, but our starting pitching actually seems to be settling in now so how much of an improvement would we actually get if we traded him for a starter? I tend to agree that at least against the Brewers nobody seemed to want to show “leadership’. When they were riding high India just seemed to be the “defacto” leader, but now it’s like crickets.
His trade value has been cut in half from its height around 1.5 months ago. At least according to Baseball Trade Values. I’m hanging on to him unless he brings me back a controllable pitcher, or a 1, 2 punch like a rental starter, and bullpen piece.
There is 1 newer reason why I’m hesitant to move India. I really like EDLC and McLain in their current position. I don’t think EDLC is going to be nearly as good of a SS, as he will be as a 3B. McLain is very smooth at SS, so I can’t ask for more there.
If I were a GM, I think I’d be willing to give up roughly the same pitcher for either India or Barrero. India is obviously the more proven talent, but Barrero has a higher ceiling. It would depend on my specific needs, I suppose. But the point is that I think the Reds could offer a very attractive deal to any team that might want India — but wouldn’t actually have to part with him if they don’t want to.
I understand the India trade logic. IFs out the kazoo on the prospect train and India’s production waning.
But in backing away from this, I also see the opportunity for upgrade at least a couple other positions. First on my list is Catcher. A 5-6 day per week catcher with some offensive and defensive stats. Would guess we are average at best with Stephenson. Gosh Sadek has been raving about Padres, Giants, and Brewers guys and then there is Realmuto, Murphy, Smith, and Diaz. That is about 50% of the National League. Think we need to move in that direction. Stephenson would certainly offer a nice return. The other position I would look at is a regular RH hitting OF. Not Senzel. But someone better and along the lines of what the Cardinals are dangling out there ….ONeill and Carlson (switch hitter). Although many of you are attached to Friedl, Fraley, and Benson, I think the team would be better served and balanced by one solid RH equivalent. Maybe that is CES, but I haven’t seen his OF reviews as yet. Worse than Castellanos or Schwarber? I doubt it. Maybe these are over the winter things. But I really think the silence needs to end on our catching situation and we need to prioritize a step forward here. Have we even inquired about Diaz on the Rockies?
His leadership is soooo overrated.Votto and others are leaders also.
It seems likely that Votto provides leadership of a sort, but the players apparently disagree with your assessment of India’s leadership. How would we know, anyway?
India probably is the odd man out in 2024. But I’m still not sold on trading him right now. It’s definitely a tough choice.
I kind of have to laugh because about a month ago people were saying the Reds couldn’t win with 1.5 starters. It’s Abbott and maybe Lively. The Reds are going to have to win 9-8 every game. Well one month later and the starting pitching is carrying them and the hitting is terrible. We all got what we were asking for and the Reds promoted all the kids but now they have to do their part and make adjustments to off speed stuff. Right now they aren’t. It sure is fun to watch though. Competitive baseball going into August and we might be buyers if the price is right. Can’t ask for more than that. I would rather watch the kids struggle than Myers and whatever bums they were carrying earlier in the year. Still have two months to go .
Good points.
Tough loss but Reds managed to play Brewers/Giants/Dbacks and brewers and did ok? 5-6 isnt ideal but its almost August and reds right there against 3 playoff teams. Need to survive LA and then push the Cubs into sell mode.
The 3 starters that LA is sending out this weekend are not real good…..I hope the Reds can get back to good at-bats because if they don’t…..we are in trouble
I’ll see your “not good” and raise you a Weaver.
Cubs unfortunately aren’t going away just yet. Could actually be playing for 2nd place against them if they have a rough series against the Dodgers.
Still think the Reds will be ok and I’m pretty bullish on them to win the division. Brewers just have their number. Hope they don’t see them in the playoffs.
You’re right, OS, but the sky is falling anyway, I’m told.
Well, this just blows.
Seriously, though, I am getting a bit concerned about this team overall. Ever since they found themselves in first place (after their exciting run, the debut of Elly, etc., just before the All-Star break), they don’t seem to be the same team offensively as those heady days of June and early July. The pitching, on the other hand, has been mostly stellar since then — or least good enough to win most days with proper run support, which is often now lacking. Ironic that earlier in the year, the offensive production was there in spades, and it needed to be because of the horrible pitching.
That is no longer the case. No doubt there are many reasons for this. I’m certain that one (and only one) of the reasons is the overall youth of this team. They are learning and this is what inexperienced teams go through — battling inconsistency, handling adversity (and success), making mistakes and (hopefully) learning from them, etc.
But when they were clawing their way up the standings before the break (and then running into the Brewers’ buzz-saw of hurlers), they seemed to have a much different approach at the plate. Mostly, it seems they were being patient, willing to take walks or the bloop single, stealing bases, creating havoc for the opposing pitchers, and having a ball doing it. Now, it seems like they are mostly just up there hacking away, hoping for the big home run. The large number of strikeouts (not just today, but overall in recent weeks) is what really concerns me.
For whatever reason, they just don’t strike me as playing the same brand of baseball as before the break. Even without having to face the Brewers the rest of the way, that concerns me. It tells me that other teams have figured out the Reds’ hitters, for the most part, and the Reds to date have not made the correlating adjustments. It’s difficult with the inconsistent umpiring we’ve seen, I know, but they need to be more patient at the plate, take what the other team is giving them, and make the pitcher work. Get on base — walk, single, etc. Then create havoc. Stop trying to hit home runs. Try instead to get on base. Then the home runs will come.
That’s my story and I’m sticking to it … 😉
REDSMONK65
Excellent post. I wish you would post more often. Your posts are much more insightful than some others who post here ad nauseam.
Why thank you.
Yes, excellent and thoughtful post. Sadak (or was it Brantley?) has said several times that opponents are belatedly recognizing the Reds’ running game and concentrating on stifling it. That element of their offense seemed to me to be critical to their early success. Hope they recover it.
Reds hitters are 3rd (!) in the majors in walks, 7th in strikeouts……..2 behind (wait for it) the Milwaukee Brewers….who are 26th in OPS.
It’s one bad day, stuff happens.
Good point. I wonder, though, despite the rankings, how many of the Reds’ walks (and strikeouts) came before the All-Star break and how many have come since then. I would be interested in knowing that.
Hurts getting beaten by this Brewer team. Bottom line, our guys just need to see more MLB pitching. That is where the Brewers have the advantage. Their hitters really work the pitcher and draw bb’s. Our guys don’t…..yet. They get themselves out. That will change with experience!
The Reds do not play small ball when it’s necessary to do so. Lack of execution and plate discipline became their worst enemy. That’s on Bell and the coaching staff. The Brewers put the ball in play, and their pitching, timely hitting, and scouting proved to be the better team, a 10-2 series dominance is no fluke.
Now watch the Brewers who emptied the emotional tank against the Reds lose 3 in a row to the Braves,
They might, Braves probably face their #3-4-5 starters
Let’s hope so! Reds need to focus on beating the Dodgers and then the Stupid Cubs!
The Brewers do not match up well with the Braves. Not many teams do. But Brew Crew especially so with their weak offense.
It is curious to me: On July 9th, 1 day after the Reds won 8-5, they were shut out 1-0 in a game where the Brewers gave 14 Ks to the Reds. Now, after they won yesterday, today got a shutout again but this time 18 Ks were delivered, literally having no chance along the game. By the way, Lively pitched for the Reds in both games. The frequently lack of run support to Lively is remarkable like the big one to Weaver as a counterpart …
Hope the offense comes back on the tough series at LA…
Obviously Weaver is the better pitcher
Maybe he pays big bribes to the hitters?
The Reds got some good pitching today with only one walk given up in total. I hope the hitting coach can give this young team some valuable hitting advice to support the Little Three and the nearly overworked bullpen who have stepped forward to keep the Reds afloat these last couple months. Two big series coming up on the road.
Its not just another game. They lost 10 of 13 to the island of misfit toys. The season is 65% over and they’ve got guys with 1-2 HRs batting 4th & 5th regularly. This is ridiculous, but at the same time thats baseball.
Whats more troublesome is all the Ks and quick outs. Lack of walks and lack of situational hitting. I hope they get back to a feeling like they had during that 12 game winning streak. Alot of guys have to pick it up! Elly is giving off Barrero vibes and it feels like they can go 2-3 series between every sac fly. Krall could give them a trade boost? That wouldn’t hurt
On the plus side, Diaz gets two days of rest
18 K’s and 0 BB’s
That’s all that needs to be said. Other than Lively had a solid game again.
Well, at least the yard got mowed.
Have noticed the same trend I pointed out a few weeks ago. Some people, such as myself, post a lot of (mostly fairly substantive) comments criticizing Bell’s management of the Reds, and some people respond by insulting us and/or trying to get us to leave the site because it’s apparently too taxing for them to just skip over our comments and only read the nice ones. Really don’t understand why this behavior is permitted to continue (seems like it violates the spirit, if not the letter, of the site’s rules), but I guess I must be missing something. So, I’ll continue enduring the insults and the name-calling and the comments telling me what I’m “supposed” to be talking (and not talking) about, and I’ll continue pointing out every issue I have with Bell’s management. That’s the sort of thing I think people should be doing on a baseball discussion site, even if some people don’t like reading it, and as long as Bell keeps making mistakes, I’m going to keep pointing them out.
I’m with you, J.
Yeah, maybe, but J makes sense when he writes, whether one agrees with him or not.
He’s not the constant gaslighter that you are.
The Reds hitters aren’t the only ones who heed to make adjustments.
Choke up on your brain. Think to the opposite field.
Don’t go swinging at every lame idea that pops in your head.
To put yourself on par with J’s contributions is a joke.
Lol, I’m sure you are Steve
Still living rent free up there, Harry and wku? Or, is that all it’s worth up there?
Still can’t let things go. What pitiful little things you two are.
Harry: I fear that you are challenging an imagined fiefdom. I hope this ends well for all concerned.
As you should.
The Bell ultra-supporters crack me up, as if he’s incapable of making
lots of mistakes. Maybe he just happened to have the good fortune of a bunch of super talented rookies coming up from AAA all around the same time this year following some incredibly fortuitous trades last year? After all, the Reds did start this season 7-15, which followed last years sterling 3-22 beginning. Lest we forget about the Reds epic playoff run collapse in 2021, when they appeared to be in good shape to make the post-season, only to completely collapse in September. Taking these facts into account, maybe with a better manager (gasp) the Reds would be well in front of the Brewers and in 1st place having just won this season’s series vs the Brewers 8-5. After all, since April 23rd the Brewers are 32-36 vs the rest of MLB…so just an average team… not some juggernaut that apparently only appears when playing the Redlegs.
I doubt that anybody thinks Bell incapable of mistakes. All managers make mistakes and all managers’ success is dependent upon the quality of their players. Of course, fans, being human and lacking important information, make plenty of mistakes, too. Even the ones who believe that they know everything.
Great start by Lively. That’s encouraging. I’m going to point out that Cruz and Duarte issued two out, no runners on base walks, who both ended up scoring. I have my doubts about those two relievers. Peralta has our number, along with the rest of the Brewers pitching staff, it seems. Time to move on.
Upon reflection, today’s 10th loss to the Brewers is another step in the learning process for a team predominately made up of very young players! While no loss is necessarily good, and I despise losing (in any sport, amateur or professional), the Reds are still in the hunt for the NL Central title as well as one of the 3 NL Wild Card spots!
That being said, should the Reds fail to win the 2023 NL Central title, they have no one else to blame but themselves for going 3-10 against their main rival in the division!
The positive takeaway was that Lively pitched well except for the mistake pitch that led to the 2-run HR. He deserved better but it’s hard to win if you score NO RUNS!
What was particularly disturbing (to me) was the repeat of the double-digit SOs. Never good, no matter who your opponent is! Plus, as others have noted, the Reds were shut out in 4 of the last 7 games against Milwaukee!
Time to move on, improve and try to finish this 10-game road trip with at least a 5-5 record.
Sounds like I’m the optimist here. Look at the September schedules. Reds are in a fine position. Sure, with so many rookies they could easily tank some more, and they could do nothing at the deadline.
OTOH, the expanded playoffs make lots of teams “contenders”, especially this year for the Reds – who saw that in April?
We could be like the Mariners last season – finish hot, good fortune in an initial playoff series, and get whomped by a better team next round. Again, a great success this season.
Still, if all the rehab pitchers return in some shape, they still need at least one more good pitcher of some kind, either starter or pen man. And, avoid all the rookies slumping together. Very doable.
At the beginning of the season, I was actually much more optimistic about this team than most people seemed to be, but mainly for the wrong reasons. I was excited about the wrong pitchers, assumed Stephenson and India would have big comeback years, assumed Myers would be really good, imagined Votto might still be good after getting back in shape, and thought it was possible that guys like Newman and Vosler could be surprisingly productive. Barrero had fixed his swing and was ready to be a star. I was especially glad to have veterans like Moose and Moran and Pham as far away from Bell as they could get. I think that’s the only thing I really got right.
I had no reason to think the guys in the minors would be major contributors this year, because so many people kept claiming they were a year or two away, and I don’t pay much attention to the minors, so I wasn’t expecting much from them. Friedl seemed unimpressive, and I wasn’t sure about Steer. Benson? Who’s that?
One thing I’ve learned is that it’s silly to make any confident predictions about what is or isn’t going to happen in the future when you’re talking about young players. I don’t understand why so many people do it. They could fall completely apart or win the division by 5 games and play for a championship. Who knows.
That’s why you can’t sit there and blame Bell for everything that goes wrong. It’s such a young team and like you said the players who supposed to help like Greene and Lodolo have really given them nothing. India has had his moments but has really struggled since June. Stephenson has had a couple of decent moments, but nothing like we thought he was going to be. Votto I think is about what most of us thought he would be (Bell does need to rest him a little more). Benson has been such a huge surprise especially after his start to the season. I think 2 of the 5 rotational guys are non-existent (1 DFA and 1 Tommy John). A BP made of Waiver Wire and FAs on minor league contracts that nobody wanted. This team is almost unrecognizable from the team we thought we would see or even started the season.
Everything? Correct, we cannot blame everything on Bell.
But, that doesn’t mean Bell doesn’t deserve some blame, either. Like you mentioned with India, he has struggled since being taken out of the leadoff spot. He still has the 11th best leadoff OBP in the entire league. Common sense tells me, “Put him back.”
That’s something Bell can take the blame on, recognizing a player in a slump, having tried him at one spot, not working, so return him to his original spot. Or, even, India should never have been moved.
I think you’re exactly right, J.
You might be right about India, Steve, but correlation isn’t necessarily causation. Perhaps India would have had an excellent early season batting 3rd and then declined. I would be happy to see him moved back to leadoff, based on what I know, but would be unsurprised if it didn’t make much difference.
And in news that surprises nobody, the MLB owners have decided to keep their favorite lapdog …
https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2023/07/mlb-owners-extend-commissioner-rob-manfred-2029.html
Reviewing the pitches and locations from Mil. reveals an excellent game plan. They consistently utilized four pitches and especially used the changeup to guys like McLain (4 in a row for a K). The scouting and execution were fantastic. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a game with 18 Ks and no walks. Inexcusable from a lineup with as much talent as Cincy. Kudos to Votto today.
You can bet the rest of the league is taking note of this game and updating their game plan vs the Reds.
Bell feebly notes “We didn’t adjust to their pitcher(s)….”
8 Ks in? 12 Ks in? 15 Ks in?
Of course no one asked Bell what “adjust” might entail.
Did he sit around and wait for adjustments?
After X games with Brewers, would it come as a surprise that McLain would get a steady diet of changeups?
As with EDLC, the Reds as a whole have been running on raw talent, enthusiasm and luck.
That has taken them far but the weaknesses are showing, and it currently isn’t in the rotation, which is performing admirably, Weaver excepted.
It has been mentioned here before and it’s a serious question as to whether Bell has the managing skills to take these young players to the next level.
They may ‘enjoy’ playing for him…by what metric?…but he doesn’t appear to be leading them anywhere.
That was a truly embarrassing game…the team seemed completely unprepared..
Whose job is that?
Bell’s.
The team will never optimize their huge potential under his management.
+50,000
+100,000
Some people will say stuff like “but Bell doesn’t swing the bats” and “ultimately it’s up to the players to execute.” These are factually true statements, but I wonder what these folks think a manager’s job actually is? Do they think his only role is supposed to be filling out the lineup card, making substitutions, chatting with the media occasionally, and keeping the players as happy as possible because happy players always play better? Do they not expect the manager to prepare the players in some way, create some sort of game plan for them to follow, teach them something about how to play the game the right way, demand certain things from them, etc.? And especially when he’s got young and inexperienced players? If they don’t expect any of that from a manager, then I understand why they’re so upset by those of us who hold Bell accountable for the players’ approaches at the plate and on the basepaths, but I think their expectations are way too low. It’s supposed to be a full-time job. (Of course there are also coaches to help out with all of this, but theoretically the manager has some control over their behavior and isn’t just telling them to “go do whatever.”)
Word up, J.
2 jobs for managers/coaches
1) Just the general health of the players. i.e, make sure all get regular rests during the season.
2) To set up each individual and the team for the best position to succeed. We won’t win every one of them, DUH! But, is this team really being set up the best for success?
We may have done some analytics and scouting to address our “player development” prior to the major leagues. But, it seems to me that, at the major leagues, it may not be utilized. Like the Brewers. It’s quite obvious that we have more talent. But, there is so much more than talent that goes into making a team.
Reds are far exceeding anyone’s expectations and have won more games than they have lost. With the pitching staff they have it amazing that they have been this good. Team seems to struggle against the Brewers for some reason. It’s not like they getting their brains beat in. This is the first playoff race for a majority of these players. They may have been pressing or putting too much pressure on themselves. With the amount of rookies in the lineup and basically a BP built from the waiver wire, imo Bell has done a pretty decent job. Now for some reason it’s looking like they’re kind of getting away from what made them successful (working counts, seeing a ton of pitches and other small ball things for the offense). No manager could do what bell has done with this team. Besides VOtto there is really no clubhouse veteran leader, especially on the pitchers side of things. Give Bell a break and stop complaining about everything that goes wrong being his fault. I guarantee you that Coucil wouldn’t be able to have the success with thisReds team. He’s got an absolute elite BP and veteran SPs. I don’t think he managed all that well in this series.
+150,000
“They may ‘enjoy’ playing for him…by what metric?…but he doesn’t appear to be leading them anywhere.”
^^^^ They enjoy playing for them because they aren’t held accountable for mental (not physical errors) errors. Throwing to the wrong base multiple times, dumb base running mistakes, ect. Maybe it’s happening behind closed doors, I don’t know. But i do know that it keeps happening, so thus, I am concluding there are no consequences for such mistakes.
@ Greg – Congrats on leaping over that very low that you have set for them. YAYYY they aren’t going to lose 100 games this year!!!
I like to aim higher.
low bar*
I understand where you are coming from, Greg.
But, I don’t have have never looked at wins and losses. I look at mistakes made or good plays made. Even willing to listen to someone else’s consideration on an aspect.
For instance, against Arizona, I was initially wondering why Bell pulled Young only after about 7 pitches. Someone mentioned that he may believe he will need Young against Arizona’s left handed bats the rest of the series and wanted to keep them fresh.
I could see that and, thus, was willing to “watch and see”. I do tend towards “what is going on right now” rather than “what could come up”. But, they made a good point and made it very professional and mature.
This batting order, I simply see no logic behind it.
Or, just expounding a bit on the mistakes and good plays, I look at what “could cost them games” and what “could win them games”.
Most simply, if I believe it’s a bad batting order, I will say so and why. If I believe it’s a good batting order, I will say so and why. Win or lose, I don’t care. Plenty of examples in the history of all sports of teams winning “in spite of their manager/player/whoever” and not “because of their manager/player/whoever”.
Yup. Craig Counsell had a plan for each game against the Reds. Those of you who watch the games carefully and listen to the Cowboy know this. By contrast, a team that gets blanked 4 times over 2 weeks of play by the same team probably doesn’t have a plan. Starts, Finishes, and Close Games are still a trademark of failure under David Bell.
I’ve said it before on here. the Brewers are the best coached and have the best MLB scouting department in the league. They figure out hitters weaknesses and take advantage of them. If you don’t work on your weaknesses, you simply won’t make it in the league – regardless of your talent.
Agreed. At least against us.
Obviously Votto to the leadoff spot. He’s the only one who didn’t strike out and he had two hits. Small sample size may apply.
“Sneaky fast” base runner, too.
Votto = Sub Mendoza.
If that doesn’t wake up his pride and motivation, nothing will.
Rookies had no hits today right? We had decent # of hits from Votto, India, Fraley, and TJ but scattered. It’s very hard to string hits against Brewers pitching. We just couldn’t get 1 or 2 balls out of the ballpark. Of the rookies, CES and EDLC struck out 3 times a piece? I was hoping CES would provide better contact hitting than that. But you wouldn’t find out what a player is until you throw them in the fire.
You forgot one – Mclain had 4 K’s
As Mr. Miyagi says, “It’s okay lose to opponent! Must not lose to FEAR!”
David Bell had allowed his team to fear the Brewers. They can’t beat the boogeyman. Maybe the Reds need to bring in Mike Barnes. If he can manage as well as he can negotiate…
Hope we don’t face the Brewers in the playoffs if we make it in!
Terry Silver’s 3 step approach might wake them up. Quicksilver.
For VA,
Hahaha. . .I love the reference.
Wipe on, wipe off.
A few observations
In the series against the Brewers the only runs we scored were on dingers.what happened to playing “reds ball.”
When we face the better pitching the kids do poorly, maybe excluding Steer.That is logical but the numbers are dramatic.today as an example.
Counsel pulling Peralta seemed to work out well.Having those 3/4absolute studs made it easier than what Bell had but it was a tough spot.if only we had a couple of bullpen arms that could be counted on instead of the bottom 2/3 on the roster.
I haven’t heard very much about possibly bringing in a power hitting OF
Most of the talk around the league is about pitching and the price will be high for them.
Quality.OF might be a little bit fairer.
There has been a really obvious switch to predetermined swinging recently.India,McLain,Elly just to name a few.Was this our hitting coaches philosophy or have we morphed into this?It’s ugly when they guess wrong.
I really love the 9guys rotating for 8 spots.
Wonder if the players like it.
Elly is an amazing 3rd baseman.Leave him there forever.He is catlike quick.He gets to everything near him
Wouldn’t use the term “hitting” coach based upon the recent games with the Brewers!
But get him out of the lead off spot. Get him lower in the order where he was producing. He may be a leadoff hitter eventually but he has failed this first trial.
With his power, I still wouldn’t put him leadoff. If he ever does learn to hit up here, I can easily see him knocking 30 taters easily from any position. But, at 3-5, he would be knocking in 100+ RBI’s, also. Less likely at leadoff.
I’m truly amazed by the starting pitching we’ve been getting in July. If anyone had told me that in July our rotation would consist Ashcraft, 2 major league minimum veterans (Lively, Weaver), a rookie who was getting lit up in triple A (Williamson), a rookie who wasn’t in plans (Abbott) and told me we were solidly in the playoff picture, I would have said no way.
In addition, I did not envision this bullpen being this solid. I still don’t trust Duarte and Cruz in tight games but the rest are quite good. This, with Law, Gibault, Young and Farmer basically picked up off the proverbial MLB trash heap late last season and this off-season.
Even with this, the likely returns of some injured pitchers, I still feel we need to obtain an innings eater starter and 2 better relievers. The unfortunate part of it is that pitchers are going to be very prospect-expensive at this trade deadline but I still feel like we need to try and get reinforcements. This team and its fans deserve to go for it.
Recognize the Cubs are at StL this weekend, while the Reds are in LA. Fortunately, Milwaukee is in Atlanta. If the Reds can’t compete with the Dodgers this weekend, the division will tighten, especially if the Cubs should sweep the Cards. The Reds really need to play well and Atlanta needs to thrash the Brewers, otherwise look out below. Getting rid of Bell is an imperative for this team to succeed.
@LDS you may want to try harder. Talk is they may be trying to extend him.
Honestly, especially if they win the division, I think they will.
I just hope they don’t extend him. This team will never reach their full potential with Bell in there.
@Steve a article I read on yahoo was speculating that they should extend him.
Oh, I’ve always said that one thing with Bell is the players love to play for him.
But, that could say as much for the players as it does for the manager, also.
It sounded more like the reporter was pushing for it than the Reds were considering it.
Of course, some of the players say that. Part of it is organizational politics. The other part is performance doesn’t matter. You play regardless of whether you should. I expect Bell to be extended. He has family in the front office. But, as I and others have said, the Reds will never be competitive as long as Bell is in charge. He’s incapable of managing a big -league club as is demonstrated whenever he faces a manager such as Counsell.
Entirely agree, LDS.
Oh, I believe the Reds will be competitive. They are right now. But, they will never reach their full potential as long as Bell is there, at least from what I’ve seen.
I saw that same article about a Bell resigning from the FO. Interesting. . .
Angels trading for Giolito, so that is probably the best rental arm off the market. Not sure I wanted the Reds to go there, but no chance now.
Yep. Kind of a big letdown. And, if you look at the return that Chicago received, it was squat. Are the Reds really being held back by cost??? If so, then don’t even try this year.
From the White Sox perspective, the return was good enough to pull the trigger sooner than necessary.
I do not like Bell’s record against the Brewers this year. I think he is partially ay fault with the losses. I am unsure of his ability to take this talented team to a World Series championship in the coming years. I hope the Reds bring in a new manager this off-season. The Bell’s are in with the owners, so I am not sure he will not get an extension. I think they should go with a manager who has a better track record with winning playoff games and championships.
It was two of the top three prospects in the Angel system. That is a huge return. Basically the same from their perspective as what the Mariners gave up for Castillo.
@Jason, the return was not squat. #61 overall according to Fangraphs, certainly top 100. The other prospect top 150. That would be like trading CES and Petty.
“Squat”?
A top 100 and top 150 prospect for a 2 month rental is a steep, steep price to pay.
And the White Sox have apparently said Cease is not getting traded because they think they can contend next year. The Reds absolutely blew it when they let Chapman go to the Rangers for basically nothing. They desperately need bullpen help to keep Diaz from wearing down even further. If Lance “home run” Lynn is Krall’s target to replace Weaver, Krall loses any credibility with this fanbase.
100% correct on Lynn. That is not much of an upgrade over Weaver. Plus he is a HR machine that would be coming to GABP. I am not disappointed YET. But we need starting pitching help NOW and not over the winter. I would prefer a non rental but if Krall wants to go cheap, there are several rentals that would be much much better than Weaver. We are getting to the point of where “losing” a trade is OK. Krall has been preseiding over these discussions for a month now and the dance cards are about to be completed.
A bit disappointed here.
However, this was a massive overpay per Baseball Trade Values
I am glad the Reds did not overpay.
Need a lefty in the pen, and the players to start working the pitchers again, taking walks, stealing bases. A small ball at times would be good.
Tough series ahead. Hope they can take 2 out of 3, and move on.
This team goes as Elly goes.
It’s no coincidence they were 6 games under 0.500 before they called him up.
He had 16 great games, 7 bad games, then 7 good games, and most recently 13 bad ones at the plate.
In those 2 stretches of great games he has a 1.090 OPS, struck out 25% of the time, and more importantly, the Reds were 18-5.
During those stretches he struggled, he had a lowly 0.345 OPS with a 42% strikeout rate, and the Reds are 10-10.
The next seven road games are very important as the Reds get into the last two months of the regular season. Obviously, the offense needs a jolt. Benson should be moved up to at least fifth in the batting order. Elly is not getting it done at leadoff. Friedl or India, until he’s traded or not traded, should be batting in first position to wake up the offense.
Yes, the Elly lead off has coincided with the drop in run production. Friedl, Elly, McClain may be a better move and consider benson in the top 4 against righties.
There is just too many options to remain settled on the one that hasn’t worked.
Agreed. Something needs to be done.
Isn’t that Bell’s MO though?
If something doesn’t work for a week, he doubles down and does the same thing for another week, then a 3rd week, then a month.
So he wastes 3 weeks of bad production, when everyone else saw it light years before.
I know why… it’s the secrets we don’t know about. If that were the case, why does he eventually come around to making the sane decision…a month later?
Sometimes, Bell never does come around with the sane decision.
Of our 10 starting position players, we have 4 rookies, 3 second year players, 2 third year players, and one guy not in his 20s. We are very young. Games like this will happen, this year more than next. We’re going to have to take the good with the bad throughout the maturation process when you have such a young team. We’re going to be streaky at times.
We just won 5 in a row (or something like that). Another winning streak is coming.
Giolito went for a top 100 and a top 150. Roughly a bit less than Collier + Petty, but more than Stewart + Petty.
Not exactly cheap for a rental.
Collier was not even ranked in the mid year BA update, with his struggles this year. This would have been more like CES and Petty, or Marte and Petty. That’s too steep a price for the Reds.
Krall said the market was overpriced and he wasn’t kidding. So happy the Reds are staying out of it – let’s see what is the going price for a couple of serviceable relievers.
Quero is number 84 and Bush is having a mediocre year, so I don’t think it’s Marte + Petty level expensive, but yeah. I think beating this offer would be a mistake for the Reds. It’s good for the Angels since they have a Rookie Catcher who is better than Quero and quite frankly for the Angels it’s either re-sign Ohtani or 5+ year rebuild. Giolito is a SoCal native so he could re-sign. I’d hate this trade for us.
@Amarillo, yeah you’re right, not Marte. But in any event, I don’t think the Reds would have gone there. And this kinda establishes the prices going forward. We might be in play for bullpen arms, or backend starters like Lynn, but this seems to have priced us out of the elite SP rental market.
Nice analysis. Think I agree to a point that a top 100 and top 150 is awful steep for a rental. Two points: 1) there are other youngsters other than prospects. I would think guys like Benson, Barrero, India, Williamson, etc. would more than qualify. But it is the buyers call. 2) At this late stage of negotiations, no doubt Krall has a Plan B and a Plan C etc. For all we know too, he may be fishing in deeper waters like Snell or Scherzer. I read where Scherzer said he would waive his 2024 $34M option if traded to a contender. Lynn and some of these other has beens (#5 starters) are off the table for me. I think #2s and #3s are our sweetspot. Cardinal guys like Flaherty or Montgomery might fit the bill although I would prefer a non rental. But if Krall must go cheap (rental) then one of these guys would work. I dont have the confidence of others that Greene and Lodolo are going to be healthy innings eaters near term. The key point being we need a 6 inning 3 run guy (4.50 ERA) to replace Weavers endless run of 3-4 inning starts. And with todays off day, I would have thought he would have already scratched/DFAd from his scheduled start Saturday.
Don’t forget we swept AZ before we got the Brewers. Some teams have another teams number in a season. Some places are a horror show to play in, like Citizens Bank Park. It’s especially hard to get young teams like ours to switch up their hiring approach on a game-to-game basis. Look who got good today – the “vets” – the ones that know how to do it in the majors. Mighty Mc, who’s been able the best hitter since coming up, had 4 Ks. Elly needs to do what he did ager good first month at AAA. Y’all scream for the youngsters to get up here and play and then ate mad at Bell when they don’t produce every single game, even when they’ve been productive, or we wouldn’t be challenging for first. Everyone take a breath, thank the pitching, remember #VottoStillBangs and get the next one. Go Reds!
If you haven’t seen it, watch Votto light up Chris Russo on High Heat.
https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/mlb/reds/2023/07/27/joey-votto-goes-off-on-chris-mad-dog-russo-of-high-heat-for-hall-of-very-good-remark/70475553007/
One thing for sure is that Votto, as an interviewer, is most definitely a huge step up from the Hall of Very Good interviewers. Considering this one and the “Canadian Mounty” one and countless others, Votto is, not only in the MLB Interviewer Hall of Fame but the All-Time Sports Interviewer Hall of Fame!
I love to see this stuff from Votto. He was so quiet for so long. He’s really letting loose in his closing days. I just wish he could be playing better.
It’s sort of like with Brandon Phillips. I loved to see the playfulness. But, if you can’t play well, it’s time.
Awesome
Here us an interesting tidbit which came over Twitter/ X a at about 10:30AM Thursday from Jon Heyman of the NY Post (and other outlets)…….
“Reds VP and senior adviser (and father of manager David Bell) Buddy Bell quietly resigned several weeks ago. Lots of intrigue there”.
https://twitter.com/JonHeyman/status/1684570006414331904
Chew away…..
Looks as if he resigned because Davis Bell will not be offered a contract extension.?
Buddy Bell is a month short of his 72nd birthday. Maybe he just walked away for personal/ family reasons which had nothing to do with his son David being the Reds manager.
Buddy spent the prime of his career with Texas Rangers who like the Reds find themselves in a playoff hunt for the 1st time in a long while. Maybe he has been offered a role with the Rangers which he found more lucrative or engaging than his involvement with the Reds.
Maybe Buddy’s departure from the Reds involved his own role with the organization but did not directly involve his son’s role with the Reds.
As Heyman said, “intriguing” which I found interesting because it did not seem to be click bait for follow on story.
Keep hope alive! Tell me the threshold that must be met for Krall to hire his own man and I’ll accept it happily. No matter the level…
I can’t give you that. But, I will state that if the Reds win the division, you can almost count on Bell returning.
And, I’m no Bell fan. It is obviously be the manager riding the coattails of the team. But, if the team wins the division, I don’t see how, professionally, you keep Bell out.
If that is the bar then, so be it, I hope the Reds finish outside the pink then.
@Steve, I would suggest that if Buddy Bell stepping away from his position with the Reds has anything to do with David Bell’s tenure with the team, either the issue of David’s tenure is uncertain and Buddy doesn’t want to be part of the decision process; or, Buddy learned something which leads him to believe David is a dead man walking; and, he wanted to disassociate himself from that decision.
Bell returned after a hundred loss season in which he started the year with all sorts of legitimate major leaguers who were good enough to be traded for several really good prospects. If that performance didn’t get him fired, I suspect he’s already guaranteed himself at least one more year, if not five.
I wouldn’t doubt any of it, Jim.
Bell can’t be a “dead man walking” at this point in the season. They’re not going to fire him if the Reds advance to the NLCS and barely lose to the Braves. He might be in some danger, as he should be, but I refuse to believe any decision has been made. They brought him back after losing 100 games and right now they’re a playoff team.
@J> This year is different from 2022 in several ways. This year Bell is out of contract at the end of the season. Last year he wasn’t. Firing him would have cost the team a payout on an option when they were still pleading poor.
Last year Nick Krall had yet to promote a half dozen players (at least) from the minor league system he helped stock to MLB and make the Reds the talk of baseball.
Because Bell is out of contract at the end of this season and thus a free agent, they don’t have to fire him. They can just not offer him a new contract like they sometimes do not offer agent players a new contract.
And recall that Mike Shildt was fired by the Cardinals after the 2021 season when he led them to the NL Wildcard game on the back of a 90 win season featuring a historic 17 game winning streak,
Jim, all things equal it is certainly easier to let leave Bell than to fire him, but how do Krall et al. explain why they were okay with bringing him back after all the previous disasters but didn’t think he even deserved a reasonable extension offer after leading a bunch of rookies to the NLCS? “We didn’t like the direction things were moving” and “our expectations weren’t met” aren’t going to work. “I wanted to fire him a long time ago but wasn’t allowed to” won’t be the explanation. “He was out of our price range” isn’t going to fly. How will they answer the question “Why didn’t you offer Bell another year after this great season?” I just don’t believe the decision has already been made and Bell is gone no matter what. It would be totally out of character for this organization to fire a guy who’s had a great year, hasn’t done anything “wrong,” and seems to be liked by the players.
*to let Bell leave….
J – “We appreciate David Bell for his service and contributions to our team. We just wanted to go in a different direction at this time.”
A statement like that works just fine for me.
Vedde intiesting. 🙂
@jim. If David Bell is the man Nick Krall wants to manage this team, I want him to stay on. But more than anything I want Krall to pick the person he wants to manage the steam. He has earned that right.
I agree, Pete. Oh, I may not agree with Krall’s pick. But, I do agree that Krall has earned that right to hire his own manager, even if that is Bell.
Would I “turn a new leaf” for Bell, then? Only if he turns a new leaf.
I have to believe Nick Krall has a vision for this team. I would like to believe it is the team that we saw during the 12 game win streak. That team was big on making contact and being aggressive on the bases. Ever since then and yes even including the five game winning streak, I haven’t seen this version of the team. Way too many strikeouts. It looks like the boys may be swinging for the fences. If it means getting rid of the Viking helmet, get rid of it. Whatever manager takes over for the team, if one does, I hope they reinforce the Go Go Reds version.
Just thinking of one “coaching moment”, something that you brought up. . .
Make a video of specific plays during that 12 game streak, doing the fundamentals, etc., put it to some sort of music, and have the players watch it. It can work as visual training. They start thinking of the fundamental plays that make the highlight reels, not the 450 ft HR’s.
+1000
I would speculate that perhaps the reason Buddy Bell has resigned his position with the Reds is primarily age, but also so his son, David, can be promoted to the Red’s front office and Curt Casali can be named the manager.
That’s a happy take I would be OK with as long as D.Bell is not in Casali’s supervisory chain,
I doubt there would be a problem with the supervisory chain as long as Krall remains Red’s GM.
The last thing the Reds need is another inexperienced manager. Lou Pinellia, Davey Johnson, Jack McKeon and Dusty Baker. The Reds do better when they hire experienced managers with a record of success.
Sparky Anderson wasn’t too bad. I do agree that whomever they hire needs to have experience whether that’s in the major leagues or the minor leagues, I trust Krall to make a good call here. He bought the ingredients so let him make the cake.
You are correct Pete Sparky turned out pretty well but he also had several hall of famers in his line up LOL
They didn’t know at the time they were hall of famers. Who knows? This team might have several hall of famers. 🙂
Every time we have a bunch of Ks then it’s “They’re swinging for the fences”. Occasionally someone will roll over trying to pull the ball, but they’re just trying to make solid contact. Freidl needs to cut down on the lift in his swing, but overall Milw just has our number. They don’t throw much in the middle of the plate.
Hopefully we’ll pick it up because LA and the Cubs are putting up runs
Fraley also appears to me to be making a supreme effort to lift the ball as opposed to just trying to drive it. His 7 and 14-day OPS are both hovering at the .710 level with an OBP 10 percentage points lower than his seasonal average (~.250 vs .350) while his slugging is virtually on his seasonal rate. Also, like Friedl, he has drawn 0 BB in the last 2 weeks (seasonal rate 11.9%) but Fraley’s K rate is not elevated.
A couple of points in regards to swinging for the fences: anything above 15 strikeouts in a game is overly excessive. Unless you’re facing Nolan Ryan or Kerry Wood. There’s a problem there.
Also, typically the strikeout leaders every season are your big power hitters and there’s a good reason for that. I don’t want to go back to the pre-2023 version of the Reds where we had to count on home runs to score. I believe the type of talent we have on this team doesn’t suggest this type of model.
Absolutely
That is one thing I haven’t seen and I love to see. For example, 4 batters, I would much prefer to see 4 singles than a HR and 3 outs. Hits, hits, hits, just keep the hits coming. Contact, move the runner over. Bunts.
Especially every one of those Brewer games, they were all low scoring games. Where was our small ball?
Frankly, I wouldn’t put it past some of these guys to strike out several times against the current Kerry Wood or the current Nolan Ryan — especially if they pitched for the Brewers. Just keep throwing a 35 mph slider low and away, and let the Reds take care of the rest.
I would hazard a guess that coaches and players will try and make adjustments in the coming days to try and cut down on strike outs. Not sure why recently it has been more pronounced then the rest of the season. Maybe the Brewer pitchers are trying harder because they are pitching against the second place team or maybe the Reds being mostly very young are trying too hard or a combo of both. Time will tell.
Cubs up 4-0 and could get within 4 of the Reds tonight. They could catch us in Wrigley if we don’t pick it up
So took a day off and go to dinner with the wife…and the restaurant is showing a replay of yesterday. PTSD!
Reds lost the game in the 5th and 6th inning. India had 2 terrible swings against Peralta who was abusing reds righties as did every brewers righty pitcher with the slurvy low outside pitch on the corner. india got a 2 a strike mistake and hits the lead off double. Votto goes 3-1 and then settles for a 4-3 grounder to advance india to 3b. CES gets obliterated on the slurvy outside corner pitches and ugly K.
Stephenson does the same.
Benson K’s and Elly K’s again on the high FB out of the zone and Friedl doubles but then Mclain k’s on the slurvy righty outside corner again. Brewers dont have lefty pitchers. All their righties just pound righty hitters with horizontal balls that end up 1 inch or so out of the one and Reds righty hitters swing and miss.
Reds need more lefties. Reds young righties in Steer and Mclain and CES and Stephenson got obliterated by the Brewers righties. Dont trade Fraley. Brewers won because their righty pitchers obliterated the Reds righty hitters. Stuart Fairchild aint helping that. CES surely didnt. Handedness splits in AAA are irrelevant and have zero correlation against the Brewers pitching staff. Trade for a SP and 2 bullpens and Cody Bellinger.
Maybe more lefties would help, but it shouldn’t be impossible for right handed hitters to lay off more of those slurvy pitches thrown by right-handed pitchers, which would mostly be balls if they’re taken. A lot of these guys have exactly the same bad habits (big swings, too many swings when they don’t need to swing, too many check swings, willingness to take strike three because they guessed wrong, etc.), and I don’t believe it’s just a coincidence.
I’ve got no issue with them getting more leftie hitters as long as they pay their own way 100% by hitting LH pitching as well as the Reds RH hitters like Steer, McLain, Stephenson, and CES hit versus RH pitchers, i.e. no platoon players are needed to support them.
Reds righties hitters didnt hit their way against brewers righty pitchers. Reds are 3-10 because of brewers righties dominating Reds righty hitters. Reds never scored against brewers because their all righty pitchers dominated Reds righty hitters and some lefties.
Some horrific righty at bats by the Reds righty bats.
@OS> >
RH Hitters
McLain’s 7 and 14 day OPS are 1.059/ .923 OBP are .370/.440
Steer’s .708/.577 but his OPB are .360/.302
Stephenson’s are .558/.453; OBP .308/.222
India .724/.716; OBP .360/.311
LH Hitters:
Fraley’s 7 and 14 Day OPS are .708/.710 with OBP of .250/.244.
Benson’s 1.076/1.010; OBP .429/.385
Votto .345/.464; OBP sub .300 for both 7 and 14 days.
Friedl .758/.547; OBP sub .300 for both
*******
So handedness doesn’t seem to have made much difference in OPS; but as a group, the RH batters had stronger OBP numbers. Only 2 guys, one from each side, have had consistently strong OPS performances over the last 14 days; and ironically, they struck out a combined 7 times in the 18 strikeout debacle on Wednesday.
This was in response to the Reds specifically going 3-10 against the Brewers and being dominated by Brewers righty pitchers again, including the 18K game. Love McLain but he was 0-4 with 4k’s. Brewers had the Reds Kyptonite and other teams will take note. Against Righties it was slurvy location painting the low outside corner. Against Elly, it was 2 seam FB tailing up and away 3 inches outside the zone followed by a steady diet of off speed stuff at his ankles. Hopefully, its just a Brewer thing as the Reds are 53-38 against MLB teams not named Milwaukee.
@OS>> The 14 day numbers I posted include the entire schedule since the All Star break. 6 of the 13 games covered were with the Brewers. The other 7 were also versus playoff contenders, Giants/ Dbacks; and, the Reds went 5-2 versus them.
Yes, the Reds did terribly versus the Brewers; but the Reds are playing 53-38, .582 versus the rest of MLB while the Brewers are playing 47-43, .522, versus the rest of MLB. Thus, the Reds trail the Brewers by just 1,5 games despite playing poorly vs them. If the Reds stay the course and run out their remaining 69 games at a similar pace vs the rest of MLB, they will approach 95 wins on the season and most likely be in playoffs, probably as NL Central champions. Along the way, they can work with all the hitters at doing better versus the type of pitching they faced versus the Brewers.
@ Jim:
I hope you are correct and the Reds offense rebounds. But, since the Wade Miley shutout, before the AS break, Reds team offense is awful
fWAR- (-0.9) 30th and dead last. negative offensive WAR.
K rate-3rd worst at 28.2%
Runs scored-25th
BA- 28th at .211
wRC+- 30th and dead last at 66
They need to get back to being that team scores 6-7 runs a game, gets on base, avoids the K’s and turns the lineup over.
Maybe they spray the ball around at Dodger stadium and pour in some runs at Wrigley. But the offensive numbers the last 3 weeks have been downright offensive.
I am skeptical that Wade Miley or the Brewers invented the wheel of how to pitch the Reds. I figure other teams have been trying to do the same things the Brewers have done; and, their pitchers just haven’t been good enough or consistent enough at hitting the spots to stymy the Reds hitters enough to negatively impact outcomes for the Reds.
And as far as platoons, my belief is they are too risky when either guy but particularly the RH hitting guy can’t OPS in the .600 or better neighborhood from his weak side because over a season there are too many times they cannot be shielded from their weakside pitching.
I agree with your post for the most part. I don’t think we need another starter but definitely some bullpen help and I actually think we could use 2 professional hitters in the middle of the lineup. Not sure where or how we would get them but we definitely need some reliable anchors in the lineup now
I am not in favor of trading any of our high flyer prospects. Maybe 6-8 guys. That said, I do not know why we continue to deny that we would be a better team with an additional starting pitcher and 1-2 relief pitchers. Weaver is giving us no more than 4 innings per start and burdening the bullpen with the need to cover 5-6 innings every 5 or 6 days. That is not sustainable. Gosh, I am surprised the pen has held together this long albeit signs of fatigue. I have seen what some of these pretty good rental relief pitchers (Chapman, Robertson) have gone for and it is like Prospect #25 and #28. The Marlins and Braves have each added 3 guys in the last week and no upper end prospects were involved. Just think it is selfish or cheap not to move lower level prospects for relief pitchers (or starting pitchers) when you are 1 game out of first in late July. We are not a rebuilder who is waiting until 2025 or 2026 for some A guys to possibly arrive. The core of our roster is pretty much established for the next year or so.
Just saw the Buddy Bell post. What the heck happened there???
Assuming you mean the comments all being deleted – several people decided to get into political discussions and insult hurling…. you know, on an article about Buddy Bell.
Wow. I’m not sure how Buddy Bell turned into politics.
I could see arguing the politics of the HOF, as in, “Even though his traditional stats (0.279 BA, 201 HR) are not exceptional, does his 66 WAR force the issue to consider him HOF worthy?”
But as far as I know, Bell has never taken a public stance on abortion, guns, open borders for human trafficking, taxes, etc.
How strange…
And Bell has not taken a public stance on improving education, civil rights, excessive air pollution, opportunity, worker’s rights, the budget deficit, or interstate highway traffic congestion.
Doug – completely understand you taking that action and thank you for it. We’ve always been able to work within the boundaries of good judgement and respect on this forum while focusing on our passionate love of our Redlegs.
Back to baseball tonight, albeit likely long after the lights in my hotel room are out.
Reno, I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a heated internet debate arise over the hot-button topic of “interstate highway traffic congestion”.
But I guess anything is possible 😉
If we can constantly fight about whether India should bat 1st or 3rd, then we can definitely fight about interstate highway traffic congestion.
🙂
@Doug, thank you for not letting politics ruin something as great as RLN! I left a different site to come here due to people making everything about politics.
Interstate highway congestion seems to be a fact almost everywhere today. It certainly is a reality here in Tampa Bay. As an oldie, I try to stay in the right lane and let the ‘fasties’ pass me by on the left. It seems to work.
we can derail a thread pretty quickly with just baseball stuff.
RLN favorite thread derailments:
1.) Pete Rose
2.) David Bell
3.) Bullpen useage
4.) lineups.
Did I miss anything?
Pulling pitchers too early or too late
Newman 🙂
Joey Votto
My hope is the reds get a LH relief pitcher. Only having Young in the pen is not a good situation.
That’s 2nd on my wishlist. I still want a starter to get Weaver out of the starting rotation.
But we like winning games when Weaver pitches!
Greene and Lodolo are supposed to be back in a matter of weeks. If Greene is back by mid-August, that means Weaver would have, at most, 3-4 starts left.
Honestly, since the price of a rental pitcher is so prohibitively high, I don’t think the Reds should do it. They would be giving up a part of the future for a pitcher who is only going to make about 10 starts for them. Would you give up Collier or Marte for 10 starts from a pitcher who won’t be here next year?
If the Reds want to add a starter, the offseason is the time to do it. It’s a seller’s market for starting pitchers right now, and there’s no guarantee any pitcher the Reds bring in would even make that much of a difference.
I agree, but decent lefthanded relievers are expensive and hard to find.
All comments deleted and some bloggers suspended… what happened? did a mini war of words happen {again} on the newest cite?
See Doug’s comment above. A couple posters turned a conversation political.
I see reliever David Roberson was traded to the Marins for a couple of AA guys. I really wanted him to be a redleg.
from the Mets…
Totally agree with you. I would not have wanted to pay the price it ultimately took to get Giolito, but this looks like a reasonable deal. Brewers and Marlins both adding is a little concerning. Hopefully, there is a move in the works.
Does a trade deadline thread make sense? Might be fun to have all that talk in one place.
Happy Friday all.
With the recent success of Reds trades, I welcome them. Hopefully we’ll see one or two before the deadline. I’ll be surprised if we don’t. I’m hearing about and seeing many scouts at the Lookouts and Bats games.
Hey Pete, Any insights about what teams seem to be scouting the Reds at AAA and who they may be looking at aside from Noelvi Marte?
Jim- no clue but I doubt Marte is available. My wild guess? Fairchild, Barrero, Robinson, Hopkins, Siani….didn’t really narrow it down, did I?
I did see a Ken Rosenthal tweet this morning where he claims Reds will not trade any major prospects or Jonathan India before the deadline. Sounds about right. But I believe there is a lot value in my list – could it fetch a couple of relievers or at least one?
Jim – if I had better eyes or a larger screen tv I might be able to do Face ID for Louisville home games. The scout box seats are right behind home plate so it’s easy to see them . Middle age men with clipboards and laptops sitting by themselves.
I know about Chattanooga because the Lookouts play-by-play guy said he’d seen four MLB scouts in the press box. I don’t know if this is possibly one or all of the ones you can make behind home plate- the video angle isn’t great but you can see them if you look hard enough.
No telling if they are looking at our guys or our opponents but the Reds have a deep system to deal from.
Thanks, Yeah on the screen size. I am often watching the Bats on a split tablet screen with the game on one side and the box score on the other. Then I can always use the box score screen to open additional tabs and search stuff.
I do the same with the Reds on a 24″ screen. When the Reds and Bats are playing at the same time and both wearing red jerseys, keeping them straight can get confusing 😉
From Rotoworld: Dodgers acquired SS Amed Rosario from the Guardians for RHP Noah Syndergaard and cash considerations.
There’s much bigger names thrown around that Dodgers could be trading for. Hopefully those wait until after our series is complete.
I’ve heard that the Dodgers want the v
cardinal third baseman, and that he has waived his no trade contract, as he wants to be a Dodger. I too hope that doesn’t happen until the reds leave l a.