Andrew Abbott out-dueled Corbin Burnes for six innings, with the rookie lefty exiting the game with nine strikeouts and a 2-0 lead. But the bullpen for both teams ran into problems in the 9th inning that saw a combined five runs scored before the Reds managed to escape with a 1-run victory to pull themselves within a half-game of the Brewers in the division.
| Final | R | H | E |
|---|---|---|---|
| Cincinnati Reds (56-47) | 4 | 6 | 0 |
| Milwaukee Brewers (56-46) | 3 | 10 | 0 |
| W: Abbott (6-2) L: Burnes (9-6) SV: Diaz (30) | |||
| Statcast | Box Score | Game Thread | |||
After working around a single in the 1st inning, Andrew Abbott had to try and to it again in the 2nd. Joey Wiemer led off with a single and then Victor Caratini had a 1-out single to put runners on the corners. Abbott would strike out Jahmai Jones to record the second out. The lefty then attempted a pick off at first and saw Caratini just sprint to second. When the throw then went to second base, Wiemer took off of the plate and both runners were ruled safe. Cincinnati challenged the call at second base and it was overturned, ending the inning without the Brewers scoring a run.
The Reds offense got to work in the top of the 4th inning with some help from Corbin Burnes. He hit TJ Friedl to start the inning and then Matt McLain walked to put two men on with no outs. Jonathan India then hit a grounder down the third base line that clanked off of the glove of Andruw Monasterio for an RBI single that made it 1-0. Joey Votto followed up with an RBI single of his own to extend the lead to 2-0.
In the bottom of the inning it was Monasterio leading off with a single. With two outs he was still standing over at first, but Victor Caratini doubled over Will Benson’s head in right field and he was sent to the plate, but Benson barehanded the ball off of the wall and turned and fired it towards the infield where Jonathan India cut it off and threw to Luke Maile at the plate who caught it and applied the tag in time to nail Monasterio and end the inning.
Andrew Abbott held onto a 2-0 lead entering the 6th, but he walked Willy Adames to start the inning. He would get back-to-back ground outs to Elly De La Cruz, with each one advancing Adames a base. With two outs, manager David Bell had the thought of going to the mound but the rookie lefty seemed to tell him he was staying in with a little nod towards the dugout and Bell remained at the railing. It took eight pitches, but Abbott would get his desired result as Owen Miller hit a chopper back to him and he took a few steps and then tossed the ball over to Joey Votto to end the inning.
The Reds tried to get a rally going in the top of the 7th when Will Benson and Luke Maile walked with two outs. Elly De La Cruz fouled off five pitched in the at-bat before a broken bat soft line drive was caught by Willy Adames at shortstop to end Cincinnati’s threat. Ian Gibaut had to work around a 1-out walk in the bottom of the inning but he did just that as the Reds held onto a 2-0 lead.
Cincinnati once again tried to get something going in the top of the 8th inning when Matt McLain and Jake Fraley put together back-to-back 1-out singles to put runners on the corners. Both runners would be stranded after two fly outs couldn’t get the job done. Lucas Sims took over for the Reds in the bottom of the inning and walked the leadoff batter, but got a fly out, a pop up, and a strikeout to end the inning and keep his team up by two runs.
The Reds offense would finally come through in their attempt to add to their lead in the 9th. Spencer Steer was hit by a pitch to lead off the inning and Will Benson followed up with a 418-foot homer to the left of the batters eye, extending Cincinnati’s lead to 4-0.
Benson’s homer in the top of the 9th meant that Alexis Diaz sat back down in the bullpen and Daniel Duarte came out to try and seal the win. The rookie reliever got back-to-back pop ups on the infield from Owen Miller and Victor Caratini to start the inning. Duarte then walked Sal Frelick, who took second base on defensive indifference on the first pitch thrown to Blake Perkins. Perkins then hit a little nubber down the third base line for an infield single that didn’t make it to the dirt, placing runners on the corners with two outs. Christian Yelich then homered on the first pitch he saw to make it a 4-3 ballgame.
That was the final pitch that Duarte would throw as the Reds called on Alexis Diaz to try and get the final out of the game. Two pitches later William Contreras grounded out to Elly De La Cruz to end the game… until he didn’t. Milwaukee challenged the play and it was overturned as he beat out the throw on the play. The Brewers called on Tyrone Taylor to pinch run before Willy Adames came to the plate. On the 4th pitch of that at-bat, Taylor stole second base to put the tying run in scoring position. On the 9th pitch of the at-bat, Adames was hit by a pitch in the helmet, but he seemed to be ok and remained in the game after a short visit from the trainer. The game finally ended when Andruw Monasterio fly out to shallow center with Cincinnati pulling an escape act that would make Houdini jealous.
Key Moment of the Game
Alexis Diaz getting the final out of the game with the tying and winning runs on base in the bottom of the 9th inning.
Notes Worth Noting
Andrew Abbott lowered his ERA to 1.90 on the season. In his 10 starts he’s struck out 66 batters in 61.2 innings pitched.
Alexis Diaz struggled to get the final out of the game, but he did it. And it earned him his 30th save of the season.
Matt McLain was the only Red to have more than one hit. He went 2-3 with a walk and is now hitting .306/.375/.524 on the season through 61 games.
Tejay Antone threw a perfect inning with a strikeout tonight for the Arizona Complex League Reds.
— Doug Gray (@dougdirt24) July 26, 2023
Up Next for the Cincinnati Reds
Cincinnati Reds vs Milwaukee Brewers
Wednesday July 26th, 2:10pm ET
Ben Lively (4-5, 3.88 ERA) vs Freddy Peralta (6-8, 4.72 ERA)
Good win. I wander how the Brewers did tonight?…Oh yeah! We played them…and we won! 🙂
Antone can’t get here fast enough
Benson and Abbot have been the CO MVPs of the team since June
Mr. McLain would like a word with you…
Agreed
McLain is the best player on the team. Every time he starts to regress, he gets hot again.
Benson’s hit, my gosh, where would we be without that hit? I know we would bring in Diaz instead Duarte, but still, I am not quite sure if Diaz could hold 2 run lead. Let’s take this win and get out of town. Oh wait, we have a rubber game to play. One last regular season game of madness against a worthy opponent. I look forward to it.
Benson just had another terrific game, including the defensive play the game when he played the ball off the wall perfectly with the quick relay to India to cut the guy down at the plate.
I don’t know what to say about Abbott anymore, he’s got the look
of a guy who could be an Ace for years to come. When you listen to him in the post game comments he just has a confidence about him that’s not arrogance…but total belief in what he’s doing on the mound….combined with kind of a laid back personality. For him to perform that well in this game tonight under these pressure packed circumstances facing that team and that pitcher with this much on the line….wow, what can you say? Just tremendous
When you can start that guy twice in a seven-game series your chances of winning are definitely much higher.
Brain was the key moment of the game. We lose 3-2 on Yelich homer of not for him. Benson playing ball of wall barehanded for the rally to nab runner at home was another key moment by Benson( and India to Maile).
Benson not brain. Good grief.
you nailed it Ted
Fantastic win!! One of my favorite parts was India and Votto, the two RLN whipping boys du jour, getting big time RBI’s. Reds don’t win without them.
Go Reds, take the series tomorrow! And Krall, get the pitching. THIS team needs it!
If it wasn’t for that dirty Diamondback, I’d say it’s either Abbott or McLain that wins NL Rookie of the Year. Just Wow performances from both of them. Great win, now let’s get the series and 1st place in the Central. Go Reds!
The only thing on that, is with we have a whole lot of candidates. Might have split the vote. It is a good thing to have.
Abbott has pitched 61.2 innings as 22.1 have been against Milwaukee, it means a third of the total.
Really a scary 9th inning after 2 outs and bases empty and 1-2 count on Sam freaking Frelick
I have a feeling that the offense could do damage to Peralta today in finale game… Expecting Lively keeps being solid at least 5 plus innings.. The BP is really exhausted, I think Cruz, Farmer and Law would be in charge to face high leverage situations today..
You’d think the Brewers would be able to hit him consistently after seeing him so much. That shows what a special talent AA is. If this team can get Greene and Lodolo back and keep the staff relatively healthy, look out.
Nice win. By the way, for those who keep bashing Bell for playing Votto and batting him 6th, just reference the Brewers lineup tonight. Adames and Wiemer batting 3rd and 5th. These guys are just above the mendoza line, with virtually EVERY other number being worse than Votto’s, and Votto’s improved tonight while the Brewer’s numbers decreased. And I’m sure all the Bell haters think of Counsell as the best in the business.
What better options does Counsell have to put in those slots? Does he have a guy like CES sitting on the bench? Does he have a guy like Benson hitting 8th or a guy like Steer hitting 7th? Because if he has those options available and didn’t use them in the middle of his order, he would really have to be nuts.
Well, he did start their stud rookie – Sal Frelick – on the bench while starting 2 Mendoza line vets.
Idiot managers everywhere.
Frelick’s OPS in the minors this season was .697, and a lefty was starting for the Reds. Not exactly obviously that this guy should be in the starting lineup. He brought him in as soon as Abbott was out of the game. He’s not dumb enough to leave one of his better offense weapons sitting on the bench all night. Who would do that? (Oh, wait… I know who would do that.)
And then you go on about bell taxing the bullpen. What better options does bell have? Lineup construction means essentially nothing, look at the data. He likes Benson at the bottom of the line up to have a strong AB as the lineup turns over. Would lineup construction change the fact all reds hitters are like 2-40 against Devin Williams? It would not.
David Bell is much closer to being NL MOTY then being fired, so this thread will have complaints for years to come!
As Benson showed tonight, guys at the bottom end of the order get opportunities to drive in runs and score. The bottom of the order has been a source of strength for the Reds and a headache for opposing pitchers. Counsell may have few good options for Adames–I don’t know–but he could certainly move him–with his .206 BA and .692 OPS–to eighth or ninth.
I mean, you’re really sort of making the point many people have been trying to make about the difference between Counsell and Bell. If you could pick one of these offensive rosters, you’d be crazy not to pick Bell’s roster in a heartbeat. The guy hitting 8th has been one of the league’s best hitters for a couple months. The guy hitting 7th is a legitimate rookie of the year candidate. There’s a guy on the bench who was arguably the best hitting in AAA until about a week ago — and he’s been doing great so far in the majors. And he’s got Elly, Fraley, Friedl, India, etc. This team is loaded with offensive weapons. The problem is that Bell doesn’t know how to use them, so they often have trouble scoring, as we’ve seen in many of the games against Milwaukee.
Counsell, on the other hand, does the best with what he’s got. He doesn’t put his best hitters at the bottom and his worst hitters in the middle. He doesn’t put a guy at the top of the order who rarely gets on base. His guys are selective at the plate and actually look for walks. They steal when it makes sense to steal. He understands how to maximize the relatively weak offensive talent he’s got. Bell doesn’t. It’s really quite obvious.
Agreed. I did a little checking on the Brewers lineup earlier. CC does a good job at making his batting order up.
Bell, though, I think he used “the Force”.
Pretty much ALL the Reds hitters have struggled this year against the Brewers, regardless of Bell’s lineup positioning. That’s what good pitching does. I do wish our hitters would be more selective, and we would have pushed the running game more. Generally, I worry that the Viking celebrations is influencing our approach into HR seeking mode instead of the small ball to all fields + speed approach.
Bell has used the same lineups against the rest of the league too…..and they haven’t exactly struggled. So, tip of the hat to MIL pitching. Can’t see how you can say they have trouble scoring because Bell doesn’t know how to use them when they are like 15 games over .500 against everyone else primarily because their of their offense.
I get it, you would construct your lineup differently. Seems like things are working pretty well from where I sit. India/Votto in 5/6 and Benson in 8 hole all did contribute to a huge win tonight.
Also, Counsell benched his son (1st round pick Frelick) tonight. Seems pretty Bell-like with CES, amirit?
If the Reds score 4 runs and win the game, but would have scored 5 or 6 runs if the manager had made a couple obvious changes in the lineup, we would apparently have two completely different responses to this scenario. I would say “I’m glad the Reds won, but it wasn’t because of the manager’s lineup construction. They won despite the bad lineup. He needs to stop making those dumb mistakes so the team can score more runs.” You apparently say “that was the best possible lineup because the Reds won. The manager did a great job.”
Agreed, J. Sure, of course, ultimately, it’s up to the players. But, the manager does have some “skin in the game”.
For instance, pulling relievers after throwing only 3-5 pitches? That only causes a taxed bullpen. I called that back in April. What was the problem with our bullpen the 2nd Q of the season? I call that something like “player management” – making sure the players stay healthy and fresh for a long season. So, not necessarily about wins and losses, but just seeing they stay healthy and fresh. For this, I give Bell about a C, nothing more. Bullpen use has simply been poor. And, he could be getting the regulars some more rest.
The other part for a manager – To put the players in positions to succeed/to put the team in positions to succeed, for the players and teams to reach their full potential. So, it’s still not about wins and losses but to put the players and the team in the best positions to win. That’s all a manager can do here. For me, Bell gets a D at best here from me. For the most part, the players have succeeded offensively and defensively. That’s obvious. Pitching-wise, our bullpen, though taxed, has been good overall for the season (discussed earlier). And, where Krall has found starting pitching, I have no idea.
But, batting order construction? A little leaguer could do better. Example personified that we can win “in spite of him” and not “because of him”.
“Benson in 8 hole all did contribute to a huge win tonight.”
Benson in the 9 hole last night meant that he didn’t hit four times. Votto got 4 chances to hit, Benson got 3. It could easily have happened again tonight. In the top of the 8th, the Reds had two guys reach base. If those two guys fail to reach base, the top of the 9th would have started with India, Votto, and Steer. This game could so easily have ended with the Reds scoring 2 runs and Benson never getting his final at-bat, while India and Votto and Friedl would each have had four at-bats. They were LUCKY he got to hit a fourth time. But if he’d been leading off, hitting four times would be essentially guaranteed. It’s up to the manager to decide if he wants to roll the dice, and Bell rolled them. Yesterday he lost that gamble, today he happened to win it. These kinds of things shouldn’t be left to chance. You shouldn’t have to hope that your coldest hitters reach base so that your hottest hitter has a chance to hit as many times as the coldest ones do. This is just bad managing, plain and simple.
And I’m saying there is no way you can assert they would score 1-2 more runs merely by changing lineup construction.
There is a pretty clear reasoning that Bell is using, and he has shown over time to adjust to the performance of his players. I mean he started the season out with India leading off and Myers/Stephenson/Newman in the middle.
Stephenson has dropped, India is dropping, Senzel/Newman limited to LH, Votto will see CES take more time and Benson will move up if things continue as they are now.
100 ABs is approximately a months time, and seems to be the timeline that he allows players to prove themselves before he tinkers.
He cannot win here, he either tinkers too much or not enough. Good thing he is leading the team to wins on the field.
I’m interested on seeing how they finish the year for him this year before I join the chorus of folks wanting to throw him under the bus. Until this year he’s really not had a complete major league roster – and it’s a bit of a stretch with Weaver still active – but I think lineup construction is pretty low in priority when grading successful managers.
Redgoggles, you are missing the point here.
Maybe this. . .if I show you an envelope and tell you that it has 3 red chips and 1 blue chip in it. If you pick a red chip, I give $5. But, if you pick a blue chip, you have to give me $5.
What would you do? Pick the red chips, right? Why? Did you win just because you picked the red chip? Couldn’t the blue chip still come up where you would still owe me $5?
You would still pick the red chip, right? That’s because it sets you up for your best success. You could go wrong. It could go very badly for you. The blue chip could come up 10 times in a row. The blue chip could come up on every Monday for several weeks. But, you would still pick the red chip, because it sets you up the best for success.
Then, if times change (like players start to slump), and I switch it on you, that there are 3 blue chips that get you $5 and one red chip that gets me $5, then you would start picking the blue chips. Because that would set you up the best for success. It never means on any solitary pick that you will or won’t succeed. But over a timeframe, you should come out ahead. Whether you go win or not, you are still going to look to set yourself up for success. You may “have a whim” at times. But, in the long run, you are going to set yourself up for success, regardless of win or loss.
The thing is, Bell doesn’t do that. No competent manager makes a lineup like this ever. No competent manager handles his players like this. It is a case personified that we win “in spite of the manager” not “because of the manager”.
Redgoggles – I didn’t assert a different lineup would score one or two more runs. I mentioned it as a hypothetical scenario to illustrate our different reactions to real-world scenarios.
What I am asserting is that if you asked a computer to create a lineup that maximizes the Reds’ chances of scoring the most runs, I don’t believe it would look anything like any of Bell’s lineups. For starters, I don’t believe any computer would think it’s a good idea to minimize the number of at-bats your most productive hitter is getting. That should be obvious to anyone. You don’t seem to care about such things as long as the team is generally doing well. I would like the manager to care about such things no matter how well the team has been doing. I think it’s part of his job to care about such things — even if you happen to be happy with the way things are going right now.
J: you’re much too smart to buy your own argument. Changing the lineup could easily have resulted in the Reds losing: even good hitters fail far more often than they succeed and we’ve been witnessing all year the proof of the analytics evidence that lineup construction has little to do with success, once you get beyond the first 3 batters. Plenty of times the lead-off hitter leads off an inning only once, and so on.
@Steve. I do understand what you are saying and wouldn’t be opposed to Bell moving Benson up for reasons you’ve listed. However, we aren’t talking about casino chips; these are players – real humans – prone to motivation, development, etc. As a simple/recent example; Jon India. For whatever reason India didn’t respond going from 1 to 3. Maybe it was psychological, maybe it was physical. We don’t know, but I’m certain Bell has a better idea than we do. Feel free to keep beating the drum, but this team has won 5/6 is fighting for first place today and every time interviewed Will Benson has said he is just happy to be in the lineup and doesn’t care where he’s at in it.
If Benson continues raking like this, Bell will likely move him up. Will you give him credit for it then? I’d put all my chips in the envelope that you would say it’s about time, and trash him for that too. And if Benson struggles after the move? I’d guess you’d find a way to blame Bell too.
“No competent manager would do this” Literally, Counsell did this last night too. I would say most – if not all – managers would start rookies lower in the lineup to alliviate the pressures while they learn the major leagues. Only real special players get exceptions. But maybe you are saying most managers aren’t competent.
It’s a long season. Players go through ups and downs, and are in different career trajectories. Bell is navigating 50+ different humans, trying to keep them all together for a singular purpose. Seems to be working.
“…if you asked a computer to create a lineup that maximizes the Reds’ chances of scoring the most runs…”
The computer says:
RPG (Runs Per Game)
RPG 5.466
Wil Benson
Matt McLain
TJ Friedl
Jake Fraley
Spencer Steer
Joey Votto
Elly De La Cruz
Luke Maile
Jonathan India
Last Nights Lineup
RPG 5.194
Elly De La Cruz
TJ Friedl
Matt McLain
Jake Fraley
Jonathan India
Joey Votto
Spencer Steer
Wil Benson
Luke Maile
And the worst lineup for those 9 players.
RPG 5.097
Elly De La Cruz
Luke Maile
Jake Fraley
TJ Friedl
Jonathan India
Spencer Steer
Matt McLain
Wil Benson
Joey Votto
Green, there’s a reason pitchers never led off when pitchers used to hit. Lineups do matter. It was a very “bold experiment” to move them to 8, and very few managers even wanted to mess around with that. There’s a reason for this. It wasn’t just something people started doing as a custom; they wanted to minimize the number of AB’s pitchers got, and get them away from the hitters who were most likely to reach base. Maybe you think you’re smarter than all the managers who had their pitchers hitting 9th (or 8th) for all those years, but I don’t.
I don’t think I’m smarter about baseball than the managers, J. The situation changes with the dh, though, and especially with a lineup that is mostly dangerous top to bottom: some of the hitters at the bottom will be good hitters and we’ve seen the value in this in games when the heart of the order is ineffective and Benson and Co. come through. Does that negate the benefit of Benson getting an extra at-bat in many games? I don’t know, but I know that he’s contributing mightily hitting 8th and 9th. Another thing I don’t know is whether the lowered expectations of batting there have contributed to his emergence. Generally, my attitude is that good hitters help a team win games whether they hit 3rd or 9th. I also won’t be surprised to see Benson move up in the order at some point. This is a very young team with plenty of flux: good young hitters going cold and needing to adjust. The Reds are winning, but this is a still a season about sorting and figuring out who belongs where.
The Brewers are dead last in the NL in OPS and batting average.
So it stands to reason they are going to have some dud hitters in the middle of their lineup. They don’t have many other options.
But look at what the Brewers manager does – his top OPS guys (Yelich, Adames, Contrares) have the most at bats for them.
Now, look at the Reds. 2 of the 3 guys with the most plate appearances have sub 100 OPS+. Sometimes it seems Bell picked the lineup from a hat.
In the last 30 days, it’s EDLC, McClain and Freidl. I think most – if not all – of us would agree this is a good change. If anything, this reflects Bell’s willingness to adapt and isn’t some random guesswork.
The lineup depth has been so refreshing, and a key to the success to date.
The Reds have the most productive offense since what, the middle May, and guys are on here bashing Bell for his lineup construction, with many calling for him to be fired. Two of the dumbest arguments I’ve heard in a long time. I’m not happy with Bell and his quick hook of starters and his bullpen use at times, but that’s just a difference of opinion. The fact is this team is playing better than ANYONE would have thought, so the Bell arguments are just silly at this point.
There are several Brewers with higher OPS than Adames batting lower in the order. And I’m not saying that this proves that Counsell is incompetent. But I suspect that a number of us, were we to become Brewers fans, would disagree with his (and all other managers) decisions and ultimately conclude that his team wins in spite of him.
I was at the game last night, and at the end, Benson stayed on the field and stared lasers at the Crew for the entire time they celebrated. Assumed it was a “I want to remeber this feeling moment”…. turns out he channeled that anger pretty well!
Ha, that’s cool. The cameras also caught Diaz and Adames having a good natured interaction….clearly no hard feelings. That said, Counsell is the kind of guy who might retaliate.
Big win, but they have to quit pitching Yelich and Contreras middle away. Our opponents quit pitching Stephenson away all the time because thats where he likes the ball. Be able to adapt from the scouting report if the hitter shows you something else in a series.
It might’ve been worth a shot to have India try to squeeze that run in from 3rd in the 8th or whenever that was? He is a second baseman after all?
Abbott is fun to watch. So is Benson. Elly hacking at ball 6 or 7 and ending up with a K is not fun.
I’d suggest that every other team needs to learn how to pitch Yelich too, since he’s destroyed all pitching in the month of July.
The Reds have held him down until that one. He has been hot this summer though. Contreras though…every hit is a pitch away over and over
Not grooving a tater straight down the middle on your first pitch might be Lesson #1 at your school.
I think maybe just quit pitching to Yellich. At all.
People don’t like India’s fielding? Well, that is what the DH can be for.
I’ve noticed the same thing with how they’re pitching to McClain now. They know he likes it up a bit and middle/outside where he can drive it to right center, so they’re pitching him inside and lower more. Great thing about McClain is he’s able to adapt and still crush the ball no matter where it’s pitched.
Yeah I was thinking the same thing about the squeeze when India was up. Seemed like the perfect time for it, especially considering India’s propensity to almost never come through in those situations
Agreed. That’s one thing how I’ve seen many teams try to get to Votto. For the longest time, they didn’t learn that Votto takes pitches. So, they finally learned to put 2 straight down the middle, then nibble at the edges. The only thing, they kept nibbling away.
Then, one day, a team thought of trying to jam him. And, they started getting him out.
At least that’s what it seemed like to me. I’ve tried to find some numbers to prove that. But, I couldn’t find anything showing anything like “BA on balls inside” or whatever.
Abbott continues to dominate. Teams cannot hit him. Reds HAVE to get a left handed reliever to team with Alex Young. In a playoff type game like tonight, the left handed reliever would have been brought in or should have been brought in to face Yelich. I am hoping that Tejay Antone returns back to his form a couple years ago. A Diaz needs some help, so the Reds don’t rely on him only all the time.
Why wasn’t Young brought in to face Yelich?
Or Diaz. After that grinding AB that resulted in a walk and nubber hit, Duarte should not have been left in to face Yelich.
Because if he lost Yelich, he would have to face at least the next 2 batters losing the opportunity to go to Diaz until too late.
I’d take those odds.
Up 4-0 and Duarte hasn’t pitched in quite a while. Saving Diaz for tomorrow.
That’s 2 different players given an opportunity to tie the game with one swing against Young versus 1 player against Diaz.
Diaz > Young every time.
It’s a shame DD couldn’t finish it, and save Diaz for tomorrow.
Harry, you need to quit complaining about Bell. He knows what he’s doing. Just because it goes against tradition, that doesn’t mean it’s not part of Bell’s master plan.
@Steve; are you suggesting you would have preferred Young over Diaz?
Or just generally gaslighting.
It’s a big win tonight, folks. I’m choosing to enjoy the fact that we let MIL get their hopes up and then dashed them, hung an L on their Cy Young and positioned ourselves to take 1st back from them tomorrow.
But feel free to continue to harp on all of Bell’s faults, and blame him for everything.
For Redgoggles,
Nope. I was laughing about it the entire time I posted that. Someone told me that just recently about Bell.
Redgoggles,
You say that you’re choosing to enjoy the win, but it seems like you’re actually choosing to fight with everyone who isn’t happy with Bell. Why not just relax and enjoy the win, and not worry about the mean and terrible things other people are saying? Why even bother reading this blog at all, when you could be off celebrating the win in whatever manner you choose? Just go relax and enjoy it, and leave the rest of us here to complain and fight and say all sorts of mean and terrible things.
You aren’t wrong, J.
I am enjoying it, both the win and the discussion with folks that have differing opinions. And much more relaxed than I was until the last out was made.
I didn’t mean to come across otherwise. I enjoy your posts. Cheers!
J: fighting seems to be what we do here, win or lose. Probably worth a Psych. thesis. I’m trying to break the habit, but old habits die hard. For what it’s worth, I enjoy lots of the posts here, including many with which I disagree.
I don’t even feel like Redgoggles was fighting. He presented pretty logical points.
When Diaz did come in, he nearly blew the game. He has not been as dominant recently as he was earlier in the season. I’m far from certain that he’s the default clear choice in high-leverage situations at this point. I hope the Reds are able to add some real bullpen help; might give him a chance to rest and rite the ship.
Agree GMR, and I think games like last night is one of the reasons he’s less dominant right now. We should not have had to go Diaz. The guy needs a break. Now, I agree with bringing him in when we did. But it’s a shame we got to that point.
As you said, hopefully some bullpen help is on the way (and maybe a starter too).
I agree. Fighting isn’t the right word; arguing is.
Brewers had 7 hits in 6 innings off Abbott. Looks to me as though they hit him. However, he is a pitcher, and he pitched well despite giving up more than a hit an inning.
I’m sure there’s been discussion about this plenty, but I worry about how many more games Abbott can go before the season is done. So good, but there has to be an innings limit, right?
Not according to Krall.
Works for me. Get Greene and Lodolo back, drop Weaver off into the waiver dumpster, get Antone and a bullpen piece and have some fun these last 2 months.
Sounds good. 🙂
I wonder about Nick. The timeline keeps getting longer.
Get Snell, just in case.
Snell, Green, Nick (hopefull), Graham, Abbott, and Brandon if needed, is a really nice rotation for the post season.
GO REDS
I’m sure they don’t want Ashcraft & Abbott throwing 110 every start, but they’re off Thursday so they’ll get 5 days rest
Benson
Benson dived a saved run, he relayed a throw at home to save a run, and he hit a 2-run homer top 9th.
I keep comparing him to Brandon Phillips. Traded away almost nothing to get each player right before the season started. Had zero expectations that either would be more than maybe a bench bat, but both may end up being stars.
Another outstanding performance by Abbott. Young man just knows how to pitch. No moment seems too big for him. Looking forward to watching him pitch for years to come. Huge part of the team this year.
+1000
Well, we are still in 1st for the WC spots. Only 1/2 game behind the Brewers.
We’ve “held our own” against every team this season, except:
Atlanta
Yankees
Brewers
Pirates
In terms of W/L.
Yep and the Pirates were early in the year when we were playing like dog doo and went 0-4 in a series there where we scored a pathetic number of runs. The Yankees series 2 of the 3 games could have gone either way… and I believe all those games vs both Pit and NY were before we had brought up all the rookies.
Yep, I look forward to next time we play the Pirates. I do not believe they have our number.
However, glad we’re done with the Brewers after today, and I prefer to not see the Braves again until the playoffs.
By the way, Luke Maile is the best catcher on this team and it’s not close. They need to make sure they keep him in 2024. He seems to have a great rapport catching Abbott and it looks like Abbott’s going to be the Ace of this staff and could be pitching in a lot of big time post-season games if things go the way we all hope. Last night watching Stephenson not block two easy balls that both got under his glove to the backstop and advanced the runners in big situations was just brutal and he has been doing it all year. This year the number of balls where the pitch just hits part of his glove and get away is a pretty big number. And when it comes to hitting they’re not much difference between them. Maile’s got some pop and he’s probably going to be a .240 hitter. Stephenson’s probably got a little more pop and is going to hit for a little higher average, but Maile is definitely much better catching the pitchers and overall defensively at almost everything. The only thing defensively where Stephenson’s even close is throwing out runners trying to steal.
agreed. I like Stephenson but I think his days with the reds are numbered. I think you try to package Stephenson, India, Senzel for some can’t miss pitching prospects and run with Maile and Robinson as our catching duo
I totally agree here. Instead of worries on this site about who bats 8th instead of 7th, the elephant in the room is stephenson’s catching skill.
I would not want to see Tyler catching a high stakes playoff game with the score tied in the 9th inning.
If his offense isn’t great, then he doesn’t deserve a contact because his defense certainly isn’t.
Signing maile to a contact extension ought to be priority #1 after the trade deadline.
Watching the game last night, I said the same thing to myself. Maile isn’t going to put up unbelievable offensive stats, but he does consistently give quality ABs. He rarely is a one or two pitch out and every now and again he runs into a HR. I am fine with him and Tysteve being the only catchers the rest of the year, and if an injury happens, Robinson is waiting in AAA.
They actually are quite close, with Stephenson a slightly better hitter and Maile a little better defensively. Stephenson gets a bad rap defensively here, but Statcast shows him average to slightly below average defensively—essentially average. Maile is a little above average. The Reds are quite fortunate to have two catchers that are decent. We have had seasons where the catchers spot in the lineup was only slightly ahead of the pitchers from a hitting perspective. I don’t think we will see Maile or Stephenson dealt soon.
Why do people say this “it’s not close” when it’s not true. If you said Joey Votto has had a better career than Scott Hatteberg and it’s not close, that would true. Stephenson and Maile are actually very close. You may prefer one or the other and that is your right.
Sigh of relief. Burnes finally conquered. Abbott absolutely awesome. Clutch hit by Benson. The downside: Gibaut, Sims, and Duarte each gave up walks, Duarte with two outs and no one on. We know where that led. Elly 0-5 and swinging at the moon on some pitches. Take your walks and get on base, please – the exuberance of youth… Peralta tomorrow.
I would say that Diaz, despite the save, might qualify as a downside, particularly given that this is looking like a trend. Sims is no better. I’m never comfortable going into the late innings with a one-run lead and scarcely more comfortable with two.
Not really concerned about Gibaut and Sims; that’s especially who Sims is, but those two are good. Duarte is the 26th player on the team right now, so that’s to be expected. My big frustration is with Elly. I think he is trying to be this amazing player that everyone in local and national media is talking about, instead of just being himself. At one point it was said that the organization wanted to see him walk more, and he did, but now that seems out the door. He has got to accept a walk when it’s offered to him, and lay off the junk that is out of the zone. I realize it’s just a hiccup, but it would be nice to know this is being addressed with him.
We have a legit Ace in Abbott. He just out dueled Burnes. Those of us who remember the BRM think about how the names of McLain, Steer, Benson, De La Cruz, Abbott, Greene seem to bring about similar excitement.
Man, it took an abundance of things going right for the Reds and wrong for the Brewers for the Reds to win this game. Abbot stellar as usual, Burnes hitting a player and walking the next player led to 2 runs on back to back hits by India and Votto (not sure if I believe what I just wrote), and Wilson hitting a player followed with giving up a HR to Benson. And we won the game by the smallest margin. I am not sure if we can expect something like this happen tomorrow.
I’ll say this about those Brewers hitters… they had some long at bats this evening. They really made our pitchers work. I’m glad the Reds could string together enough hits consecutively to get a few runs. Such a close game. I hope Diaz didn’t bean him out of frustration. Very difficult game to watch, especially having the De La Cruz throw to first just a tad late and the replay showing safe. These are both pretty good teams. Some games are like this.
It took a while for that 4-0 lead going into the ninth to result in a win, but it certainly made for a better night’s sleep for myself and I’m sure other fans. Abbott is a rookie but at this point in his career he exudes confidence.
If the CY Young vote was held today, where would Abbott finish? Obviously he’s lacking major innings relative to the obvious candidates but his numbers are too good to overlook.
Another trade idea
https://blogredmachine.com/posts/reds-should-pounce-athletics-left-handed-reliever-sam-moll-mlb-trade-deadline
I prefer Suter from the Rockies. Less costly and a very different look for hitters to adjust to.
I’m sure most know about this. In case there is any that don’t. It’s pretty good.
https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/mlb/reds/2023/07/25/milwaukee-scoreboard-crew-has-no-further-comment-on-elly-de-la-cruz/70467195007/
That was awesome.
As a reds fan for over 60 years I really don’t think I can ever remember a team with this many first and second year players having such a positive impact. The interesting thing is that it appears there are more still knocking on the door in the minors. Bell has done a great job creating a very nice blend of young developing players and a few vets to give us much to cheer about.
Like many there are times I wonder why this line up or why not use this pitcher. Without excess to all the information needed to make those decisions I fall back to won lost record. In that category the team has far exceeded my expectations to this point. Hope they keep it up and make the post season. The future is bright for this team. I hope ownership realizes the opportunity they have and does all they can to bring a championship to the city. The fans have turned out, now it’s time for ownership to move from building to competing.
+1000
Agree with the entire post Jim. The the most important part: “I hope ownership realizes the opportunity they have and does all they can to bring a championship to the city.”
There is so much (deserved) ill-will built up towards ownership. They have a golden opportunity to make a lot of that go away. Hopefully they open the check book and take advantage.
Bell’s done nothing to create this blend. It’s been Krall.
You have NO idea. And if that is indeed true, then that would be the same argument for any winning manager, which essentially suggests that managerial decisions have no bearing. You don’t get to have it both ways Steve.
I completely agree. I’ve not been a big Bell fan by any stretch, but at some point you have to look at the results, and realize that maybe what he’s doing actually is working. Do I agree all the time? No way, but so be it. Managing is a lot more than just lineups and pitching changes. It’s managing 26 guys at once, with a revolving door as well. This is why I just laugh when people want to fire Bell. Unbelievably silly!
If we win the division, Bell almost certainly wins Manager of the Year. There would be some mixed feelings about that around here for sure.
Man if that happens, I’ll be right here for the “Reds win despite Bell” hot takes lol. Also and more importantly, if Reds do win the division, Bell will absolutely deserve it.
I’ve always said about Bell, the players seem to love to play for him. But, his mistakes are obvious.
Obvious to you Steve, and others I’m sure. I think Bell has done a great job this year. I can’t think of many mistakes, but certainly things I may do different.
wku,
You wouldn’t see them. You can’t see them. You won’t look for them.
Oh I would see them. I saw them constantly with Price. Even Dusty Baker, but I gave him more of a pass because he won.
Still living rent free, I see.
You complain more about me than Bell. Yet, you can’t write that I was wrong about anything. Hmmm. . .
Why do I even respond? You’re not worth the time nor effort.
I’ve never been a Bell fan, but I also believe that you can’t argue with results. The results suggest Steve that your opinions of Bell are completely incorrect. His mistakes are not obvious, because he’s got his team outperforming every team in the NL except for the Braves over the last 3 months. You lose this argument every time, because of RESULTS.
Perhaps we just lack your imagination, Steve.
Alot of complaining about Elly leading off but he’s already hit 2 hrs. He’s going to get more fastballs and get the maximum at-bats to figure it out. Granted swinging at ball 6 is frustrating, but he was drawing walks when he came up? We’ve seen him be patient before. I think it will end up being a good move
Sounds like the Votto argument. He has 2HR and maybe one or two other hits and his average has dropped about 40 points without walks since moving to lead off. But, by heavens, he has two HR, only one of which came when he was actually leading off the game, so he is doing a great job. He’s not getting on base, which means his other offensive skills are not happening and he is not disruptive to the other team from his seat on the bench, and those two HR are about as effective as peeing in the Mississippi to overcome a drought.
I’d make the small sample size argument for Elly. Hard to do that for Joey.
Aquino hit how many HR’s his first month? Where is he now?
Not unless that highlight reel happens literally every game, give me what he does between the highlight reels.
One has zero to do with the other. That one season was an aberration for AA unfortunately. His career numbers never indicated that wonderful season. Elly on the other hand with a short history has indicates nothing other than a budding superstar. Horrible analogy.
EDLC may fall flat on his face but I would advise not putting any money on it.
Pete,
I still don’t see it. I see a highlight reel, just like Aquino was. Oh, I know all about the numbers before Elly got here. But, all I’ve seen once Elly has got here has been Aquino 2.0. Definite comparison until Elly makes the adjustments.
Agree with Pete. I don’t think Elly will be a high average hitter and he will always strike out a lot. A guy that swings as hard as he does is going to swing and miss a bit. He also has a huge strike zone. Same as Benson. I was down on him before so I have eaten some crow but cannot believe he can keep up a batting average near .300.
Leadoff hitters get on base, very little worry about hitting HR’s. What’s Elly’s OBP?
“Look at Yelich. He hits HR’s, and he leads off.” He also has the highest OBP of anyone on that team.
Much easier to drive people in when there are people on base. You can’t steal first.
Love Elly’s potential but he’s not a lead off hitter.
The absolute best man to bet lead off. He can beat you so many ways. He’s a game changer and we need to be patient. This kid is the real deal but he’s only 21, Joey Votto is 39. There is no comparison at this point.
You can’t steal first. Lowest OBP of any regular on the team. Not very ideal for the leadoff hitter.
He is 21 years old and whether anyone likes it or not this team is in the infant stages. We must allow for growth and it will require patience.
Lowest OBP maybe because of small sample size? Sometimes you put players in certain positions based on the potential of what they might do. Check out this minor league stats this year.
Pete,
I have no problem giving him time and patience. Just make it lower in the order.
wku,
And more often you put players in positions because of what they actually are doing.
Great game last night. Really had a playoff feel.
Hope we can follow it up today with another win. Peralta has had our number almost as much as Burnes.
Agreed, A win would give the Reds some confidence going into the post season.
I’m still convinced the Reds would be better off trading for a closer than another starter.
Not including shutouts, every Reds loss in July was caused by a failure from the bullpen (aside from a bad start by Abbott on July 7).
The Reds lost 9 games in July. Not including shutouts, 5 of the remaining 6 losses (83%) were cause by failures from the bullpen.
The Reds lost 1 game in July because of a bad start (Abbott on July 7), but every other loss (non shutout) was due to the bullpen.
The starting pitching doesn’t seem to be the issue.
Failures by the bullpen is a far different statement than implying failure by the closer, which is what I infer from the statement that they should get another closer. Their closer has been excellent, hence the All Star selection.
@Doc I would like to get a LH set up man. Only having one lefty in the pen leaves us a bit short when trying to gain an advantage in late innings prior to bringing in Diaz. Especially considering in todays game your only getting 6 innings out of your starters more times then not.
Diaz WAS excellent.
And hopefully he can return to being excellent.
But that hasn’t been the case since the end of June.
Since June 30th…
strikes swinging are down 24% (13% vs 17%)
strikeout rate is down 39% (14.7/9 vs 9.0/9)
ERA is up 100% (3.60 vs 1.80)
Opponents Batting Average is up 150% (0.317 vs 0.127)
Perfect innings are down 44% (25% of the time vs 44%)
You could make the case that the bullpen failures are caused by the starters (Weaver) inability to get through 6 consistently, much less more. They have been noticably better, led by improvements from Williamson and Lively (who would have guessed?)
But, I don’t disagree that they need another arm or 2, ideally a LHRP. I am hoping that Santillan returns to form. At his best, I remember thinking he had closer potential. That would be huge IMO.
Bullpen failures happen for various reasons. One is Bell pulling relievers too early. Seriously, why pull a reliever after making only 3 pitches to get the last out of an inning?
I called back in April, that’s what causes a taxed bullpen. What was our problem with the bullpen closing the first half of the season?
The relief pitchers are not being taxed because Bell pulls them early or doesn’t let them throw 2 innings. The game is changing. Starting Pitchers do not go nine innings anymore. They rarely go 7. Pitching a relief pitcher 2 innings means you probably won’t have him the next day. And yes I know that if he only needed 6 pitches to get out of the first inning that doesn’t mean he wouldn’t need 26 to get out of the next. The uncertainty of our starting rotation drives a lot of this.
DJ understands what each of these guys are capable of. Bell doesn’t just go pull a pitcher without consulting him. These players are conditioned to handled certain work loads. Much thought has been given to how they should be handled to help their effectiveness. What seems simple to us may be a tad more complicated. I’ll also add considering what our staff looked like when the season started and the results we have obtained to this point I would say the handling of the staff has been done very well.
+1000 to Jim
I never said anything about a reliever going 2 innings nor a starter going 7, Jim. The only thing I specified was pulling a reliever after only throwing 3 pitches. To add a detail, there should be no reason not to bring that reliever back out for a second inning, and that same reliever still being available for the next game. More than obvious when Bell has pulled relievers too early.
I even looked at last night’s game, agreed with Bell for pulling Ian and Sims after they threw over 20 pitches each, each throwing only one inning.
Again these pitchers are conditioned. DJ understands how they have been trained and uses them accordingly. Bell doesn’t just run out and pull a pitcher without consulting DJ. Again what seems simple to you may be a tad more complicated. Based on the current results I’ll defer to their way of handling the staff.
Jim,
You did it again. I never said anything was simple. I only specified pulling a pitcher after making only 3 pitches is wrong. They should be able to go out and pitch another inning and still be ready for the next game.
You think that’s a good move by Bell, that’s fine with me. I really don’t care what you think about it. It’s wrong.
You pull them after a few pitches for several reasons: whom they’ll be facing after the current batter and, of course, to increase their availability in upcoming games. You have a hard case to make here: the Reds have one of the more effective bullpens in baseball and not a ton of injuries. Are they gassed? Some, maybe, but bullpens all over baseball are gassed: starters rarely go past 6 innings. Including Burnes last night.
@Steve have a nice day! You’re a good fan of the team but I’m glad you’re not managing it. ?
Jim,
Same to you, Sunshine.
Agreed. If the Padres want to move Hader, I’d see what the asking price is. Probably too high, and if so, Suter from the Rockies would be next. Really, any quality lefty should be the first move.
We still have a stacked system.
Better to overpay a little bit (not the best, but 1 or 2 nice prospects) should get it done, if the they sell.
Also, giving up a couple of 40 man roster guys, also helps
Yep, if there is a way to strengthen this years team without destroying the system – and I believe that there is – Krall seems up to the task.
Brad Hand from the Rockies is another option.
Oh yeah, forgot about him!
Rockies rarely sell at the deadline, no matter how bad they are. Their FO is one of, if not THE worst in baseball.
Agree on the Rockies. That team is so badly managed by the front office. Horribly overpay of Kris Bryant. He’s much worse than I expected but that is stupid money to a guy with back problems.
I think the reliever to get from the Rockies is Justin Lawrence.
WHIP is 1.11
Not Arb Eligible until 2025
Another thing I find very refreshing is that we have 3 rookies Steer, Benson and McClain who give you consistent professional at bats. They rarely get themselves out by swinging or chasing the pitchers pitch. If EDLC can add that to his game, watch out.
I think Benson is a 2nd year player and not a rookie. But yes I agree with your point.
EDLC is still only 21. I have no worries it’s come.
Almost a best case scenario, how the yutes have played, pitching included. Almost all yutes have met or exceeded expectations. And yes it is refreshing to get such professional at-bats from rookies. McLain in particular looks like a veteran at the plate and in the field.
Agreed. He does impress me very much.
Love the My Cousin Vinny reference with the use of “yutes”! Hilarious!
Ah, I didn’t notice the ‘yute’ thing until you pointed it out Dennis. That’s sneaky, AlltheHype. Love references to movies especially the ones that I like.
One more win and AA will have as many in his career as Hunter Greene. I realize there are variables to consider (run support and injuries), but who is the real $53 million pitcher?
Still Greene, numbers like Abbott has put up would get him even more money than $53MM
great answer
Not fair. HG could have had a lot more W’s – lack of run support. AA is older and more experienced as well, college career at UVA, had the opportunity to dominate in the minor leagues before his promotion, no TJ surgery. No way HG should have been on the OD roster last season except the team needed him badly after the discarding of Wade Miley & Sonny Gray.
@Mario
All I’m saying is good pitching is expensive.
Amarillo – sorry I was replying to GMan88, I should have noted that in my comment
I wish I could remember how many blown saves the bullpen had when Greene pitched last season, and even earlier this year.
As long as he gets through this injury just fine and it doesn’t become an ongoing issue, then I think Greene’s deal is good for both sides, and I’m ok with it.
Both of them hopefully!!
Glavine, Browning, Lester….similar stylistically to Andrew Abbott. All with career WHIPS of 1.27, all with 5+ seasons of 200+IP. Abbott sits at 0.95 and has the lowest WHIP of any starter in baseball who has more than 10 starts. Likely not sustainable, but I think we’re seeing that this guy is headed for a long and productive career assuming good health.
If Matt McLain were a qualified hitter, he’d be 10th in baseball in OPS….and just 10 points behind Corbin Carroll. I looked up Little Joe’s stats, and the similarities to McLain are striking.
We’re talking generational talents!
If Benson was a qualified hitter, he’d be 6th in baseball. Steer is a qualified hitter and 39th in baseball. We have some great, young talent for sure.
How about we let this guys get through their rookie season much less their 4th-5th season before we start comparing them to HOFers.
Shouldn’t you be off somewhere criticizing Bell instead of criticizing posters.
Shouldn’t you be renting your head out to someone else but me?
Agree with Steve. I have compared McLain to Chase Utley and Larkin but he’s his own man and the comparisons can’t help him. Wkuchad – it’s just a comment from Steve. If someone takes it as criticism, then they need to develop a thicker skin.
Agree with you for once. I think that’s half the problem with Elly. Too much bright lights on the kid and he feels like he has to back it up, so it’s causing him to try harder than he needs to. He needs to get back to his basics and ignore the limelight. This is one area where the organization needs to realize, and cut down on the Elly promotions.
It seems there’s a few jackasses on every discussion boards. You’re one of them on this board, Steve. I don’t see anything wrong with hoping, comparing, or projecting. But regardless, let’s not try to be smarter than other posters.
A bit tired this morning, but glad I hung in there for the end. Nails bitten off to the knuckle.
Looking forward to the afternoon game. Light schedule for me, so I’ll have the game on in the office. A win heading out to the West Coast would be absolutely fantastic.
I would be a lot more tired now if we had lost last night. Those kind of losses unfortunately keep me up. I’m slightly obsessed right now. 🙂
+500
Same. I struggled to go to bed after the loss Monday. The bad breaks, umping, and poor management was the wrong kind of trifecta for me.
Big win. Doesnt need to be pretty. They won at Milwaukee and beat Corbin burnes. Get the W Today , win the series, get to 10 over and take over first place and send Milwaukee into head scratching mode as they travel to Atlanta.
Long season with lots of ups and downs. I do think the bullpen is getting tired and Krall needs to do something on that end to add some wind to the sails. August is dead arm period for relievers and we may be there already.
I have to agree with the bullpen idea right now, though I still believe the starters could use a boost as well.
Last head-to-head of the year, and Cincy is +4.5 games up on Beers in non-head-to-head games. Beers know they must reverse that trend going forward to have a chance, against a team that on paper is better than they are.
I like where we are, a lot.
Just looked at the overall standings. Here’s my take:
NLC Crown is still the best option and definitely within our grasp. A win today would help, but I think the biggest boost it gives us is not taking the lead over Bernie, but the confidence boost to the boys headed to the West Coast.
NL Wild Card is now an option. I didn’t think it was before, but I’ve reversed my position. We’re leading that pack and I see no reason why we shouldn’t stay in that mix.
The teams in the WC hunt fall into three categories:
1- Those in the mix. Us, Snakes, Giants, Philly, Phish
2 – Those on the bubble. Stupid Cubs, Friars, Metros (maybe)
3 – Those essentially out of it and likely to sell assets. WLB’s, Pie-Rats, DC, Rocks
Fangraphs still only gives us a 37% chance of making it in, but I think that’s a flawed stat. I expect it to climb significantly pending the outcome of this road trip.
Hope still flies it’s flag proudly. Feels good for a change.
That 37% figure needs an explanation. What goes into it? Prospective, retrospective, SWAG?
Looking at the Sept. schedule and wondering how that is considered?
I do remember the 2021 September schedule looking easy, and the Reds tanked. Not expecting that, but schedules don’t mean a whole lot.
I’ve attended one game in Louisville this year. Top of the order was Benson, McLain, Elly, CES, and the starting pitcher was Abbott. That’s starting to seem more and more impossible, but I’m pretty sure it actually happened.
I catch a lot of AAA action on MiLBTV and am happy to reassure you that the batting order you saw was real and not impossible 😉
Thanks. Good to know that I’m not the only one who thinks this happened.
Wow, I wanted to be there when Elly and CES came off the injured list but family responsibilities got in the way. Very cool memory to look back on especially if this team wins a championship.
Did they win, J?
Bell on Greene: ““It could all happen really fast,” Bell said on July 25. “Any day, it’s going to happen.”
Is it possible that if Greene shows any control at all that they might ramp him up on the MLB roster in a relief role? If the Reds don’t make any trades, I can see this happening. Having Greene come in and throw gas in the late innings might help this year with the long term plan as a regular starter still being the clear goal sounds like a Reds way of doing things. Bringing him in the 4th inning of a Weaver start might not be terrible.
I would say no, for one main reason: Weaver. We have to get him out of the starting rotation ASAP. If we don’t trade for a starter, Greene is likely the fastest route to jettison Weaver from the starting rotation.
Greene out of the pen to finish out 2023 is an intriguing thought that has also crossed my mind. Maybe it comes down to two issues. 1) Which is the least strain on Greene’s physique, throwing an inning several times a week or ~6 innings four times in 3 weeks; and 2) do the Reds pick up a starter in the trade market?
Most definitely not. He is a ML average starter now, and will trend upward as he gains experience. And of course, he can make the greatest impact to the team as a starter.
True, but consider that in the playoffs every pitcher is a possible reliever, and the timing of HG’s rehab does lead into treating all Sept. games as playoff games.
Point is rather than having him rehab with appearances at different MiLB levels, just put him in the pen and let him pitch a few 5th-6th innings for a week/10-days. By October he’ll be back to higher pitch count.
Before the season, I was fairly convinced that HG would eventually be moved to the bullpen. Now, I have changed my mind. He’s a future number one starter. With any luck and a some blessings from the Lord Almighty, we might have three number one starters. If he went to management and suggested that he come out of the bullpen for the rest the season, I would be all for it. Otherwise, he should stay as a starter.
Oh by the way, that was my same comment with respect to India changing positions mid season. If India came to management and wanted to do it, sure. Otherwise, they shouldn’t ask him. Now if the starting rotation had 6 quality starters, advising one of them that they will out pitching out of the bullpen for a while is completely legitimate. But it’s not the case with this team.
I still believe it will just depend upon what we see.
For example, when he comes back, he may be able to be effective an inning or 2, but nowhere near 5 or 6. Then, to conclude the season, I would have to consider the reliever role. But, if I believe he can build up to that many innings quickly, then keep him at starter.
What in the world is all this nonsense now? Greene will rehab for 2 to 3 starts, and be on this roster as a starter. He will be one of our playoff starters as well.
The chatter about altering the lineup makes a certain degree of sense to me, but one thing I don’t see mentioned when people try to figure the logic of it is Bell’s handedness preferences. We all know this, but I think it escapes the thought process sometimes. Moving Benson to leadoff almost certainly means moving Friedl down to 8 or 9; he’s probably not sitting middle of the order, and I don’t think Bell wants to run out a lineup with 2 lefties at the top of it. Also, we saw how Benson struggled so mightily early in the year when he was really pushing to make a statement. Maybe the feeling is that putting him leadoff could add a level of expectation that doesn’t mix well with him? Idk. Just spitballing here. Go Reds.
Benson led off in the minors.
I can understand not wanting 2 lefties batting 1 and 2. Then put India back where he should have been all along, leadoff, where he still has the 11th best OBP of anyone in the entire league. Then bat Friedl second.
The way Benson is swinging the bat, he’s a 3-6 guy anyhow. He should be driving in runs. 2nd highest BA, highest OBP, highest SLG, and highest OPS.
I would put McLain in that same vain. Highest BA, 2nd highest OBP, 2nd highest SLG, and 2nd highest OPS. There would be some talk to keep him in the 2 hole, which I could understand, also. . .the Cano strategy.
I like India and Benson at top of order. It allows India to be aggressive early in the count as well due to the fact that Benson rarely swings at the first pitch and normally has extended at bats. Plus it puts Benson high OBP ahead of 3-4-5 in the order.
It may be mental or whatever, but India has always hit better in the leadoff spot. It seems to fit him and the role of a manager is to put your players in a position to succeed in order to help the team to succeed. India in the leadoff checks both those boxes.
Fun facts: India’s OPS at #1 and #5 are quite similar. India’s batting average at #5 is actually higher than at #1. In his career, the spot where he’s had the BEST offensive production was #8, and it’s not even close. At that spot he was .283/.421/.457 in 57 plate appearances.
Here’s a different theory: when India has hit well in his career, Bell has moved him to leadoff. India then continues hitting well, so it appears he’s a really good leadoff hitter. This is exactly what happened his rookie season. India started low in the order (this is where he spent some time at #8), and then got moved up to leadoff. He continued hitting well, but there’s absolutely no reason to think he couldn’t have been just as good, if not better, hitting at a different spot in the order.
This idea that India is only good at leadoff is just not right. When he’s hitting well, he hits well wherever he is in the order. When he’s slumping, he slumps wherever he is in the order. But if we really want to play the “where does India thrive” game, then he should be at #8. Maybe he could be on base a lot for Benson at #9.
As I keep saying, I can’t imagine why anyone would think Benson would struggle at leadoff. More than perhaps anyone else on this team, he’s shown an ability to come through in stressful situations. I know lots of other guys have had a lot of big hits, but when Benson was brought back up after flopping so badly, he must surely have felt that every at-bat was crucially important for his major league survival. How many chances was he going to get, after all? If he failed again in the majors, how long would he have to stay in the minors before they’d give him another shot? Even if an at-bat meant very little in terms of winning/losing, it must have meant quite a lot to him personally. He handled that pressure quite well, obviously. He seems to take every at-bat seriously, as if the game (and perhaps his career) depends on his reaching base. I wish more players demonstrated that kind of resolve.
And, despite hitting 8th and 9th, he’s come to the plate in many high-pressure situations, and looked just as good as he’s looked in low-pressure situations. I can’t see any difference in his approach. The at-bat I keep coming back to is his extra inning triple in Baltimore, in a game it seemed the Reds were almost destined to lose, when he was forced to face a lefty because Bell had run out of hitters. Benson’s triple arguably won that game for the Reds. He’s had several hits (and walks) at key moments of several games. I don’t think he was going up to the plate in those situations thinking “well, I’m hitting 9th, so it makes no difference what I do.”
Who knows. Maybe he’d be a total flop as a leadoff hitter, but I’ve seen nothing whatsoever to suggest it. He’d go up there with a mentality of getting on base, just as he does at #9. He’d see a lot more pitches than Elly does, and probably reach base a lot more often than Elly does. Admittedly he wouldn’t hit as many 460 foot home runs, but Elly would still be hitting some of those even if he’s moved down in the order.
If anything, it’s Elly who seems not to be able to handle pressure very well, but this doesn’t seem to have affected Bell’s thinking one bit. I don’t think Bell is really giving this stuff as much thought as we like to believe he is. He gets a theory in his head, and even if the rest of us can see it’s obviously not working, he’ll stick with it until he’s run it into the ground. I don’t believe he agonizes over this stuff the way some of us do. He believes he’s figured it out, so there’s no reason to reconsider it. If it fails badly enough for long enough, he’ll try out a new theory and see how that one works. But he’s probably not giving this stuff much thought in between his theory changes.
Yes, he’s definitely very focused on handedness, no doubt. He could work around it, but the problem is that he’s got himself locked into various other theories as well. For example: India, Elly, and Friedl are all top-of-the-order guys, and Votto can’t hit lower than 6th. These completely arbitrary rules he’s created, along with his concern about handedness, is probably why he’s sticking Benson at the bottom every day. I doubt it’s because he’s somehow peered into Benson’s brain and figured out that he’d wilt under the pressure of hitting first. If Bell actually had that ability, Elly would be thriving at leadoff because Bell could “see” his ability to handle that spot in the order. Bell obviously can’t “see” these things just by spending a little time with these guys, and if he believes he can, then he’s even more nuts than I thought.
Agree with a lot of this. It’s not that I think Benson would struggle necessarily, he might kill it at the top of the order. But I also like Friedl at 1 or 2, and Benson HAS been killing at 9. The bottom line here I guess is that it’s tug of war between looking at this as ‘we need more of a good thing,’ or ‘don’t fix what ain’t broke.’ I could see the argument either way.
Do agree that perhaps De La Cruz needs a re-ordering until he stops swinging at ball 5,6, and 7.
Lineup is out and Steer gets the day off. All the regular starters against right handed pitching are in. No changes in batting.
I wonder if this could be the team we on the field in August 2024:
Stephenson- c
Steer- 1B
McLain – 2B
Elly – ss
Marte – 3B
Benson – LF
Dunn – cf
Hines – RF
CES – dh
If current player development continues at this pace, that might be one of the greatest lineups you’re likely to see in the last 20 to 30 years. Not to mention extraordinarily strong defensively.
I think Dunn and Marte are on this team next year. Not sure about Hinds.
@mario. Hinds might be a bit of a long shot but he is developing very quickly. His line at AA since June 1:
373/445/775, 9 HR, 35 RBI
wRC+ = 207
ISO = 402
G = 29!!
He needs to stay healthy. He has a cannon for an arm – a true right fielder. Ball jumps off his bat. One to keep our eyes on!
I agree with Mario, but if Hinds does stay healthy we’ll see him in AAA next year, and then he’s just a call away.
Another one in a hurry to ship Fraley out.
It’s not like he’s 37 or something?
Fraley and Friedl. Some guys are never happy.
Friedl and Fraley would still be on the club. If you look at that lineup I propose that’s a heck of a lot of right handed hitters. We would definitely need some left-handed bats on the roster. I also, really like that. We have so many good hitters and players, that we have to rotate. I sincerely hope that this is what the future looks like. I don’t even wanna lose Jonathan India, to be honest with you.
I’d like an outfield mix of Benson, Friedl, Fraley, Dunn in 24, with maybe a 5th as a defensive replacement type like Siani.
Wrong time to start a new job evidently because I’d definitely go see Connor Phillips pitch in Indy today. If he’s not walking guys , he could be the spot starter/long man they need
DJ was talking about innings limits on Abbott and they are monitoring. Reds typically increase innings by about 20% for minor leaguers so Abbott is 4-5 starts away from his hypothetical ceiling. DJ said they would cross that bridge when they come to it and there’s no hard data on it either. He did say he prefers to string out the days between starts rather than shorter innings per outing. Reds have a day off tomorrow and a weird 3 days off in august in like 8 days. I could see them bringing up a Phillips for a spot start or 3 and maybe letting Abbott go 5 starts in 4 weeks. That would keep him in the rotation till Labor Day at least.
I think Phillips can be much more than that to the team starting this season. If all the pitchers are healthy, the staff is loaded come spring training. Of course, health is the big question. That’s why I am not a big fan of contract extensions for the pitchers who are already cost controlled for a number of years.
I believe Bell is managing the team to be what he wants it to look like in September. It makes sense to have a very fast leadoff guy causing problems on the bases. It makes sense to want a classic Joey Votto in your lineup where he can do some damage. I even think that it makes some sense to have a couple of strong hitters at the bottom to get some RBI opportunities and turn over the lineup. I think he’s probably trying to get these guys to perform to their abilities. The big question is, how long do you give them to get there? If Votto doesn’t get going and if EDLC doesn’t cut down his Ks, then when do you cut bait?
I’m thinking the experiment with this batting order lasts a few more days and then the alternatives have to be explored before we get to the crunch time. If EDLC doesn’t start getting on base he’ll have to be moved below five or six. If Votto doesn’t get it going, he’ll have to be a sub. Benson will need to be moved up.