The Cincinnati Reds have reportedly told teams that they would be willing to trade Jonathan India according to MLb.com’s Mark Feinsand. The Reds are looking for a starting pitcher and it seems that they are looking for one that has more than a little team control remaining before they would reach free agency.
After winning the 2021 National League Rookie of the Year, Jonathan India’s not been able to replicate his numbers he put up that season. In 2022 he battled injuries throughout the season and saw a 130 point drop in his OPS. This season he’s rebounded a little bit in the power department, which has helped bump his line up to .251/.338/.411 on the year – a jump of 44 points of OPS over last season. He’s also gotten back to stealing bases as a good rate. After going 3-for-7 in 2022 he has gone 12-for-14 this year.
While the decline in production could be a part of the reason that the club is willing to trade Jonathan India, the other reason is likely that Cincinnati simply has a lot of other options at the positions that India has and can play, and at least right now, they’re all playing better than he is. If you look at second base, then rookie Matt McLain is looking like a better option there. He’s hitting better now than India hit as a rookie and much better than India’s hitting today. And he’s a much better defender. If you were to slide India back over to third base, where he played in the minor leagues at times and college, then you’ve got options with Elly De La Cruz, Spencer Steer, or Christian Encarnacion-Strand in the big leagues, and Noelvi Marte down in Triple-A.
There’s still a week remaining before the trade deadline is upon us. We’re still, what seems like, several weeks if not a month away before the Reds would get back Hunter Greene, and then Nick Lodolo. That’s about half of what’s remaining in the 2023 season. Finding someone reliable to replace Luke Weaver, who now has an ERA of 7.20 through 17 starts, could be big down the stretch as the team fights for a playoff spot.
Maybe the Reds can’t find a trade partner that would be interested in India because they also have a bunch of infielders. Cincinnati also has a strong farm system – even with all of the call ups this year – and could potentially find a trade partner utilizing some of the players down on the farm to land the starting pitcher that they are looking for.
Do the Padres have any use for India? Because I would love to see Josh Hader in a Reds uniform.
Last I knew, Hader is not a starting pitcher with several years of control.
Reds starting pitching has been solid enough with reinforcements coming. Reds could really use one more elite reliever to pair with Diaz. It will be hard to get a starting pitcher better than the starting pitchers they already have without paying a fortune in prospects. Then the question is how much control do you get of that starter you traded a lot for. A reliever will be cheaper to acquire than a starter and may make a bigger difference. You’re likely not getting an elite starter with how much demand there is for starting pitching.
Obviously. I was stating my own selfish desire.
@Alex Reds – exactly.
Trading India and reducing Diaz’s role could be detrimental to the team’s positive attitude. India is definitely the team’s leader and Diaz their All star.
Hader is a rental but I would make that trade for one strong run at the playoffs. They can also afford to resign him. The Padres are playing better, so I doubt they sell.
I just heard that Hader won’t be moved, even though he’s a pending FA. Padres see themselves as still in the hunt, with Arizona and Miami floundering. They’ll be open for trades but they won’t be tearing it down. They could certainly be interested in India, but what would the Reds want from them? Not Weathers, unless he’s part of a package. Their young catcher Campusano is a very good hitter, could pair well with Stephenson, but I’d rather see the Reds land a left-handed hitting catcher.
The Padres, like the Reds, already play infielders in the outfield. Doesn’t seem a fit at all.
I mean, this is a no-brainer. He has a negative WAR as a defender, is not hitting well, and blocks a lot of our young talent.
And yes, I know, he brings “leadership.” This only counts for so much.
Blocks no more talent that McLain is, than Elly is. Actually, less than McLain and Elly are.
Totally agree, India doesn’t fit well long term with Marte coming soon. It would have to be a worthwhile trade though. India still gives depth and the clubhouse vibe/leadership is important. I wouldn’t give him away. I’m not sure he has enough value to get a sniff strong starting pitcher, so you’re still giving up a lot with him included. India has several years of control, and shouldn’t be too expensive in arbitration with this performance level. Personally, I’d keep India, it would be better to trade him when his OPS is in the mid .800s or higher vs. currently in the mid .700s. I think he can get back to form like his rookie season in a future year, then he carries more value.
Yes, it’s been a long time coming. He was great the first two months of the season, hitting for average and lots of doubles, and fans were screaming for him to be signed long term. His power has returned the last couple months, but his average and doubles are down now. He presents a log-jam in the infield, and as he’s not an even average defender, he would have to be moved to DH, which then limits Bell’s options. The Reds have outfielders Fairchild, Ramos, and Hopkins, as well as infielders Lopez, Reynolds, and Marte all hitting over .290 at AAA. They all must be chomping at the bit. And Marte, who started the season at AA (even though he looked better, more mature than EDLC during Spring Training), is looking like he’s ready to move up already!
You lost all credibility when you mentioned 4 of the 6 at AAA batting .290…They will never be Reds barring multiple major injuries
Marte is the only one on that list that has any long term carrer ops in Cincy.
The rest are just depth pieces.
I’m confident a huge reason India is slumping is Bell tried to make him a 3 and 5 hole hitter. It’s not uncommon. . .sometimes, players simply don’t have the mentality for a position in the batting order. I could even understand trying India out there. And, after a week or 2 of “terrible”, he should have been able to return to leadoff.
Agreed, Troy. All are blocked. Either get rid of the block or we have minor league tradebait.
There are times where one gets picked over the other. If trying to save money, pick the minor leaguer. If looking for more leadership, pick the block.
Steve, I doubt that’s true. But just my opinion; I certainly wouldn’t say I’m confident.
More likely, (1) he’s playing to his career norms, or (2) if he is slumping and it’s something mental, it’s more likely due to realization that his job is in jeopardy with all these young, talented infielders.
Joekr, Fairchild was already up this season and played pretty well. He’s a platoon option to pair with Fraley or Benson, as Senzel is. Hopkins didn’t have a good showing earlier this season, but is solid at AAA. He may also end up being a platoon option, but as long as the Reds have Fraley and Benson, they’ll need those right-handed hitting outfield platoon options. But it’s true that Reynolds, Lopez, and Ramos are “just depth pieces,” as you say. Troy, “lost at credibility”? Don’t be so dramatic. And who is your 4th of the 6?
I’m glad to hear this. I would love to see India moved before the deadline, especially for a pitcher with some team control. This is the perfect scenario to improving the Reds, so put together a package with India and maybe another minor piece or two and let’s get a decent longer-term starting pitcher
It’s been trending positive though. Down to -0.2 dWAR this year. Was way worse before.
India projects to 22 HR, 82 RBI, and 159 H for the season. Those numbers are among Top 2 or 3 Reds in each category.
Why would other teams want to trade valuable young pitching for a player that you think stinks?
The team was playing pretty rotten before McClain, De La Cruz, and Abbott joined the club. Was that also a reflection of India’s leadership?
I don’t want to bash India – he’s a great dude and I enjoy watching him play. But let’s not overplay the “leadership” for a player that will be odd man out as soon as next year and maybe this year.
If he can bring strong pitching talent that can contribute in 2023 and beyond, let’s make the move.
It was certainly a reflection of a roster that lacked enough talent to compete.
This is good news. India (a Boras client too) is a solid player and a good leader but he’s the most logical trade chip
Without raiding the farm to get a better pitching return that isn’t a pure rental
I am not against trading India, but I would prefer they wait until the off season to do so. I think to trade him now might be blow to the young players on the team.
The other reason to trade him is that he is a Scott Boros client, an agent the Reds have a history of not wanting to deal with.
Going strictly off memory, I believe he was the agent for Mike Moustakas and Nick Castellanos. Not Boras’ fault that 4M was frequently injured and voluntarily decided not to stay in shape.
I was right, they were both Boras clients.
Agree
I couldn’t agree more Tar Heel. I think trading India now could be a terrible distraction to this team, and really hurt the chemistry. You would be moving the only real team leader and these kids need a team leader right now. Over the winter, you bet, but now, NO. Frankly, if he could stay healthy, I think Senzel would out produce India even, but now is not the time to make a change to this team unless it’s moving a Casali, Newman or Weaver; guys that would not surprise anyone in that clubhouse, and that would ultimately understand the moves.
I agree with this, Tar Hell. Don’t jeopardize what these kids have going together. Yes, it is a business; however as fans, we have to understand how important it is to maintain team chemistry, as it can be quite tenuous.
I like India, but he’s simply “the-odd-man-out.” I wish him well and good fortune wherever he travels.
Get Seattle on the phone.
… and, you can add Nick Senzel to my earlier comment and sentiments…
I agree. I think they duplicate each other in a lot of ways. I actually think Senzel has a little higher ceiling than India from an offense standpoint and he is more versatile in the field. So India is likely the more logical trade piece of the 2
You can’t be serious about offensive ceiling. Senzel is a right handed platoon bat and that’s it. He has more positional versatility, but he is an offensive liability if not against left handers.
He said ceiling not production. Senzel was the top college hitter in his draft, India was not.
Potential vs production. Senzel is a platoon guy and that’s all he will ever be. If you think he is going to turn into an all star, well good luck with that.
If the Reds get someone like Kopech for India, that may very well be their only trade before the deadline. India is expendable, and they need one reliable, controllable starter. Come the off-season, they’ll see where several players are at, like Senzel, Newman, Benson, and Fraley, 4 guys who only hit either right-handed or left-handed pitching.
Kopech for India is one of the better (sensible) “proposals” I’ve read…
I agree, Kopech has two more years of club control. I doubt the ChiSox would make that deal though.
That said, India would be a big improvement for them at 2nd.
Unless we get a good major league starter with a couple of years of control, I say don’t trade India.
I agree with what you say. I think the Reds brass should be somewhat cautious in what they do to get another pitcher, and I don’t like the idea of upsetting the team chemistry to obtain a hurler who may only pitch here for a couple of months and then move on via free agency. The idea, methinks, is to build this organization for long-term success, which is what they have been doing in such a refreshing way..
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Go Larry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They may have said they are willing to trade India buy what was the price? Everyone should get off of India’s back, he is an intricate part of this team both on and off the field.
From a production standpoint, I get it. However, I do have concerns that subtracting one of the leaders on the team that is relying heavily on team chemistry may upset the apple cart a bit.
It would be a big step in the right direction though to potentially securing a proven starting pitcher with a bit of team control beyond the end of the year.
Part of team chemistry is leadership. Hit leadership, you’re hitting team chemistry.
I said recently I don’t see anyone on this team who would call a players only closed door meeting if needed. I see no leader on this team who would call players out for poor play(s). I do believe that every good team has someone like this. Not that they “would” do it. But that they “could” do it if needed.
One of the first ones I could think of who would possibly do this on this team was India.
Agree Jeff, India is a leader and the younger players look up to him.
He probably is the odd man out though.
I wonder what an India and Senzel package could bring back?
Nothing against either player because I like both of them but there is simply better and younger talent behind them.
It’s worth remembering how good India was early in the season and also worth remembering that it can’t be assumed that prospects who are playing well–even really well–at AAA will replicate their performance in MLB. It could be, as many suggest, that India was harmed by moving off of leadoff or it could be that the league is figuring him out, but his decline in performance hasn’t been absolute and he’s still among the team leaders in HR and RBI. Pitchers adjust to hitters, but hitters can adjust to pitchers as well, so it’s too early to assume that India won’t return to form. I’m not saying that he should be untouchable, but they shouldn’t trade him for less than a real difference maker.
This is a terrible idea. Many of the people that are supporting this deal aren’t thinking it through. Sure, you can ignore the team chemistry and leader aspect, but enjoy seeing Newman continue to get starting AB’s against a lefty. That WILL happen. Moving India keeps Newman on this team, so you decide who you’d rather see getting playing time, India or Newman. This team isn’t bringing up Marte if this deal gets made. Not going to happen.
I really don’t think India has anything to do with Newman being on the team. There are already six players for four infield spots. Even if you make Votto the permanent DH you are still starting the four rookies at 1B, 2B, SS, and 3B. Newman and Senzel are still the bench players until one of them are traded.
If you want a pitching upgrade someone of value has to be traded. Newman isn’t bringing back a SP. I’m not even sure India brings back much without being packaged with a prospect. Guys like Newman and Senzel are getting a PTBNL. Of course most people would rather have India on the bench than those two, but again if you want some pitching help you need to trade someone of value.
Don’t tell Herbstreit or you will get Twitter flamed!
I would think everyone is on the table. But, I said earlier:
– Move India to leadoff, to the bottom of the order, or DFA/trade him, so that he can get with a team who will utilize him better.
– we have a total of 10 players/prospects within 4 years of each other for 2nd/SS/3rd. That’s way too much. Some are either going to have to switch positions or switch teams.
I looked just this morning. Guess who still has the highest OBP when batting leadoff this season? India. He’s struggling this season simply because Bell moved him out of there, trying to make his a 3 or 5 hole hitter. It’s not uncommon with players. . .he simply doesn’t have the mentality for it. Bell misused him.
DFA India? That’s a great idea. Sheesh.
Dumbest comment I’ve ever seen on here and I’ve seen some doozys. DFA India. SMH.
I agree with you about moving India back to lead off. I’ve been beating that drum for a month, not happening with our wonderful manager in charge. Put him at leadoff drop, Elly to 7th to take some pressure off him, move CES to 5th or 4th and go from there
Best lineup now is India 2B, Benson LF, McLain SS, Fraley RF, CES DH, Votto 1B, EDLC 3B, Stephenson C, Friedl CF.
Any lineup with Votto in it cannot be a “best lineup”.
Trading India for starting pitching would be an obvious best-case scenario for the Reds, given that it would allow them to improve team defense and they have nine starters for eight spots already on the Major League roster with Marte waiting in the wings.
I like the idea of trading India. I have enjoyed watching him play and be a part of the team but what he offers as a player is replaceable from within and he will not be retained when his years of service expire. Trading him now will increase the return value with his years of control.
If the reds waited until off season to move him I’m fine with that as well.
I agree 100%. I also forgot his agent is Boras.
1000000% this. For his career he has nearly 1000 plate appearances in the leadoff spot and has put up almost an .800 ops. Just about every team in the league would take that. They’d certainly take his career .370 obp there. It should have stayed India leadoff, Friedl second, McClain or Steer 3rd, Fraley 4th. Mix and match a little with matchups but legitimately that would produce consistent results from players in spots where they are comfortable. In the offseason if they trade him to someone looking for leadoff help he can be a top 10 leadoff hitter in baseball for the next 5 years. He’s just apparently not going to get that here unfortunately.
Hard to believe that they have just won five straight and jumped the Giants and the D’backs in the WC race with a lineup that sucks as much as one would think reading these comments.
Reds have a good problem on their hands, too many players for the 4 infield spots. Excluding the leadership aspect that has been mentioned here, the infield could be Votto/CES, McLain at 2nd, ELDC at Ss, and Steer/Senzel at 3rd. Improved defense and offense! Green, Lodolo, Antone are big IFs to be contributors this season even assuming they come back healthy. If Weaver is in the rotation you need help. Probably would be less controversy to roll with India and consider trading him this offseason.
These are hard decisions and the Reds will have to make evaluation judgements about who to keep to make the team its strongest. When you have deep talent, you will be trading away good players to fill your own needs. The trick will be not to do what the Twins apparently did when the traded Strand , Steer and indirectly a chip to deal for Benson in exchange for Tyler “Tommy John “ Mahle. We have to trade value to get value. There is guess work and some luck involved, unfortunately.
That’s definitely going to go down as one of the best trades in Reds history and likely one of the worst in Twins history.
About like when the Cowboys traded Hershel Walker for three NFL champtionships.
Trading India is a no brainer.
Not India related but
A trade centered around Barlow and Greinke for Barrero and another piece?
I think Barrero is a trade piece, a little off-radar. But even with his amazing 2023 MiLB start, his lifetime minor league batting stats still are NOT that impressive… Barlow needs a change… for sure… while a reliable RP for ALL of his career… KC is throwing “their” closer in non-save situations because KC rarely HAS a save situation… and as we all know, CLOSERS is non-save situations get hammered time after time. I’m not sure I’d place a lot of value on Greinke, at not at HOME games in Cincy.
And not at his cost. We haven’t recovered from the Votto, Moose, Castellanos salaries. Why would we want to take on Grienke’s salary, and his excellent 2023 W-L record?
Absolutely want NO part of Greinke. Especially at GABP.
Focus more on a guy like Lorenzen.
LOLOLOL. Barrero for those two? LOLOLOL.
And your suggestion?
Also convenient of you to miss the “and another piece” part
But thank you for the ever constructive comment and feedback, boomer
Barrero for TWO players is absurd.
Barrero AND two more prospects for one player, maybe.
While you can debate/argue this about/with all (most) Reds’ batters, India’s home vs. away splits do NOT favor getting a solid SP in return for him. DISCUSS.
India kind of killed his trade value, I’m not sure what pitcher he’d bring back at this point. India’s current value is at a 17, earlier in the year he was sitting in the low to mid 30’s. If I’m the Reds I’m keeping the team together, deal for a GOOD rental via prospects, and reassess in the offseason who to trade.
I think the obvious fit is with the Marlins, JI’s hometown team. They need offense from 3b (and SS), and have something like a surplus of young pitching. Alcantara, Luzardo, and Perez are untouchable, but they also have Braxton Garrett and Edward Cabrera, guys who have had big league success already are both 25 with 5 years of control. They could trade one of them and still be OK this year (with Johnny Cueto in the 5 spot in the rotation) and certainly going forward with Trevor Rogers and Max Meyer coming back from injury. Baseballtradevalues.com has Garrett at $34 million and Cabrera at $24 million, so the Reds would likely have to include something in addition to JI. Barrero seems like a fit (Cuban, SS with some pop), though his future is currently zero according to the site. Edwin Arroyo’s is $17 million, so he and India for Garrett is a match. Would sort of hate to trade Arroyo, but with Elly at SS (presumably if JI is traded MM goes to 2b and Marte eventually slots in at 3b, with Steer/CES/Senzel holding down the fort) he may never get a shot, and there are several solid SS prospects right behind him.
Adding Garrett would give the Reds Greene/Abbott/Garrett/Lodolo/Ashcraft/Williamson for the next 5 years, not to mention Phillips and Petty and Richardson. Ashcraft or Williamson could go to the bullpen if everybody’s healthy. Garrett would of course be a huge upgrade from Weaver right now, and if/when Greene and Lodolo come back would give the team lots of options to control innings and/or move somebody to the bullpen. I had been kind of assuming that they’d just find a rental for this year and then explore a trade like this with JI in the offseason, but if they’re looking to deal this seems like one possibility that works for everybody.
Being that the Marlins are so cost conscious, they may very well trade Alcantara, as he’s the eldest of the 7 pitchers you mentioned and is the only one signed for the next several years. He also has the worst ERA. So why would he be “untouchable”?
I certainly understand this, but worry that it might mess up the chemistry of the team. India really does feel like the captain.
Not discounting the chemistry, but not playing it up either. I think the boys want to do whatever is necessary to win the NLC and play in October. If that means somebody moves, that’s what it means.
I’m old enough to remember what happened to the Reds after they traded Tony Perez, because he was blocking a hot young prospect. That prospect played well, but something was off without Perez, and the team was not as successful. I’m not saying that’s the case here, I just said I’m concerned about it. I also understand why they would make such a move.
I’m not sure how much in the way some of you all have played team sports, but most good teams, especially young teams have amazing chemistry. Trading their leader away, is just a ridiculously horrible move. I guess Tony Perez wasn’t important either, and that was even an older team. And just remember, Marte isn’t going to replace him, it will be more playing time for Newman, at least against lefties. Bell is not going to just let him die on the bench, he will play, and he’ll play a couple of times a week.
I agree with the Perez trade…but can’t forget trading Lee May, Tommy Helms, and Jimmy Stewart for Joe Morgan, Billingham, Geronimo , and Menke. I’m not sure how much leadership India brings…he certainly was willing to step up to the plate to be it…but I’m not really seeing it on the field or dugout (not to say it isn’t happening in the clubhouse.)
Louisville was 12 games over .500 in May alone. Was India with ’em? No. But Hopkins, EDLC, CES, Benson, and McLain were. India’s a leader, and he was needed the first couple months of this season. He formed the core with Steer, Senzel, Fraley, and Friedl. But this team has transformed before our eyes over the course of this season! It’s a new team, one with much higher expectations than they had back in April.
I’m not confused about why the team would make such a move, and I’m not even necessarily against it. I just know India brings a lot to the team, and there’s a certain amount of risk in removing him.
+500
Jeff K, you’re right that there’s risk involved. And you’re right about Perez. They should have kept him 4 more years and Rose at least 3 more (Dressen and Knight were never as good as the hype), even if their defense wasn’t great. But it was fun to see Rose and Perez return to the Reds, something which probably would not have happened had they stayed longer with the team; and in that case, Rose wouldn’t have gotten his hit as a Red.
A little surprised, but certainly not shocked to read this.
Have to consider all options, but I don’t think Krall is anything close to desperate. And nothing is likely to happen during the Bernie series anyway.
Clock is ticking for everybody. Starter and/or relief arms are what we need most. Full stop.
“….And nothing is likely to happen during the Bernie series anyway.”
Agree but what happens on the field during the Bernie series may have a very large impact on what happens on the trade market subsequently.
Wouldn’t surprise me that with this news, the team tanks against the Brewers. Biggest series yet, and it’s out of the bag that the Reds are willing to trade the team leader. just DUMB!
@Chris, if they tank vs the Brewers it will be the same old same old. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
Disagree Chris.
This what put out intentionally, not a mistake.
They said they would listen.
I do not think they will undersell Inida, but want a solid return.
If we get a solid return, I am for it.
You have to wonder if the ascension of Noelvi Marte plays a part in this. Marte looks like he may be ready to be called to the big club. Just a thought.
Been thinking about it and seeing how many scouts have showed up to the Louisville Bats game this week I would not be surprised if a blockbuster deal is in the works. Perhaps with Cleveland – Emmanuel Clase? The guy is a beast.
I will be surprised if they don’t pick up a left-handed reliever at the very least. Probably a much more minor deal.
A lefty reliever would help, but the REDS’ bullpen, in my view, is well-above-average. DIAZ, the brother of Edwin, IS A BEAST. Clase’s great for sure, but the Guardians are in the AL Central Hunt (as are other ALC Teams).
Twins are starting to separate themselves from the pack. This next week will tell us a lot. I wouldn’t rule out Seattle either. They desperately need a second baseman. If they would be willing to deal with the Reds at this point.
Guardians say they want to add a starter and an outfielder.
One thing with what’s going on down at AAA, I just started to consider. . .
Either we have a wiz of a hitting coach down there. Or, AAA pitching may simply suck this year.
I mean, Barrero is hitting well?
I wouldn’t mind the Reds packaging Jonathon India and Tyler Stephenson, as long as, the return can help us now and in the future. I wouldn’t trade either one for a rental.
I agree that Stephenson could/should be considered in a package-deal. I’m not sure of his defensive matrix, but the facts, at least this year, show that he’s an ordinary hitter, and he’s NOT, at least for now, an everyday catcher. I see Stephenson moving to 1B/DH in the future… and the REDS have lots of other 1B/DH options.
@Brian, actually the facts show him to be hitting league average as a catcher. As a position, catchers are hitting 13 percent below league average. Moreover, he’s coming off shoulder surgery and trending up both offensively and defensively.
Stephenson is no benefit at 1B or DH. He has historically hit well for a catcher but way below the expected performance for a DH or 1B. He is also not shown that he is going to get back to his former performance after his injury. This season’s numbers are significantly lower than previous seasons.
Stephenson has already proven he cannot handle first. They tried that seriously over the spring and early part of this season. They’ll stick with him till he becomes a FA, probably, even if he eventually becomes the backup catcher.
Agree 100%. I don’t think Stephenson’s defensive numbers can be anything other than below average. He’s obviously not that strong defensively when you watch him play… although he has been better in the last month behind the plate then earlier in the year.
Lots of depth behind India. Little depth behind Stephenson. Aside from team control, there availability in a trade should be vastly different.
Good, even decent hitting catchers are hard to find. Be careful about trading Stephenson. As BK said his numbers both offensively and defensively are on the rise as he slowly recovers from surgery. By the way I recently I saw him take one hard off the mask. The new extra padding mask must be working because he didn’t seem to have any problem. Concussions are the biggest threat to him not catching. If he’s overcome that then he is indeed a full time catcher again which is a big deal.
I reconsidered my comment from yesterday. Trading Stephenson with India makes sense in that it may be the best solution for the 3 catcher caper, as Reds fans seem more and more enamored with Maile. I could still see the White Sox being interested, but what about this: are the Reds dangling India to see if Toronto will bite…and take Votto too? They could be interested in Stephenson as well, as a #2 catcher. But what would the Reds want from them in return? They already traded Moreno in the off-season.
Short sighted and stupid. He brings so much to this team, and our starters at present are doing pretty well with a couple more at triple A that can be brought up. Don’t screw up this teams chemistry right now. First time I have disagreed with Krall in quite a while, but this would not be a good move.
Is it really though if India does not fit into the long-term plans?
Yes, you don’t just trade an everyday player midseason during a penant race. If you want to trade India, do it in the offseason. Deadline trades should be about this season. Remember the Felipe Lopez/Austin Kearns trade?
Amarillo, I remember that horrific ’06 trade with the Nationals well. There is a difference, however. The Reds did not want to trade Kearns. Lopez could hit but made tons of errors at short, so he needed to be traded and the Nationals wanted him. But they also wanted an outfielder with power. Trading Encarnacion instead of Kearns would have made more sense for the Reds, as he was also bad in the field, but he had HUGE power potential, and the Nationals already had a solid guy at third. So the Reds GM forced something he should not have forced, because their bullpen was horrible. A bad move, a horrible deal for the Reds, unforgivable as it turned out, as it did spoil the team’s chemistry, and Bray and the other bullpen arm they got in return either sucked or were injured. Kearns finished the year well in D.C., and the Reds floundered their way out of the playoff picture. And forever after ’06 Kearns declined–makes you wonder if things would have been different for him had he remained a Red. I wish he had. So what’s the difference? While India is much more of a leader than Kearns was, he’s being forced out of the picture by guys who play better than he does, whereas Kearns was an essential piece of the puzzle. India is NOT a major part of the Reds future, as they have numerous infield options, whereas, Kearns, along with Griffey and Dunn, made up their dream outfield.
@jmb
We are trying to win this year, so it shouldn’t matter that we expect India to be replaced at 2nd. We shouldn’t be trading anyone who plays nearly every day if we want to win. The point is to make our roster better now. If you want a starter, just trade prospects.
That’s the great thing about message boards, we can all share our opinions and sometimes they’re very different. Personally I trust Krall on this one.
Doug hates it being called a message board
I LOVE Jonathan India. His intangibles are off-the-charts. But if the Reds’ can get a #1 or #2 caliber starting pitcher with some years of control, I’d make the trade because you have to give up quality to get quality. For example, this won’t happen, but if the Mariners were to offer up Luis Castillo for India and a solid prospect like Edwin Arroyo, I’d do it. Why? Because the Reds are good enough to beat just about any team, hopefully including the Brewers.
In the playoffs, great pitching stops great hitting. The Reds lineup, even minus India, fronted by a rotation of a Castillo-type pitcher + Abbott + Greene would be feared by pretty much any other playoff team. The other option, in my mind, is to not trade India and instead trade a Senzel type or some prospect(s) for a back end starter to replace Weaver.
It boggles my mind that the Reds are 9-1 in Weaver’s last 10 starts, with his ~8 ERA, but that’s not sustainable and each of his starts taxes the bullpen which is really not sustainable. Just fortifying the back end of the rotation, to me, isn’t going to enable the Reds to go all that far in the playoffs. Playoff games don’t tend to be slug fests. They tend to be low scoring affairs where great pitching and a few timely hits make all the difference in the world. The Reds have the contact hitters and speed. When they get to the playoffs, they’ll need solid front-line pitching.
Weaver is usually facing the other team’s 5th starter. Every time Weaver starts, the Reds have to burn down the bull pen to stay in the game.
Yesterday, they did it again, and the Diamondbacks pitched a “bull pen” game, with the results that most of their bullpen guys were ok, but a couple leaked out all the runs the Reds scored.
Connor Phillips is, in my mind, about ready to be promoted. He has shown his AA pitching was not a fluke. He has mastered his mechanics and throwing a lot more strikes instead of balls. The same thing happened to Abbott at the end of last year and into this year.
Williamson was indeed struggling with his control, but he does have the basic arm talent to pitch in the majors. He got shelled at the end of Spring Training, and my opinion was he still should have gone with the Reds, as Derick Johnson would have been able to help him more than the AAA pitching coach. As it was, he went to AAA, got hit because of his control, but was brought up anyways and has improved A LOT.
Starters: Greene will likely be back sometime in August. If the Reds can hang on, and Greene comes back and is dominating, like he can potentially be.
The Reds do need a really good left handed reliever in addition to Alex Young, who has done really well.
I think trading India would be a mistake, but that’s just my idea. He is not a good 2nd baseman, but I would switch him to his natural position, 3rd base, and move Elly to SS and McClain to 2nd.
There’s never enough pitching but it might be relief pitching that we need. Also the 6- game losing streak was not due to lack of pitching but rather lack of clutch hitting. We’ve added CES and that has made the bottom of the line up stronger. But imo we need to add a reliable veteran bat to balance out the rookies especially in playoff like games. We cannot count in Votto or India. There is a lot for FO to think about.
Just curious, where is it you wan this valuable veteran bat to play?
I hear Wil Myers is available.
I love India and appreciate his effort and leadership. He is a very good ballplayer. Having said this, he has better talent behind him and he is not as valuable to this team as a good starting pitcher would be. Here are a few reasons I could swallow this as a fan:
1. Carpe Diem (Seize the Day) We are not guaranteed to be in this position again soon. This move doesn’t sell us short on future talent while allowing us to make a playoff run. Something rare in Cincy.
2. Every other playoff team will improve as losing teams go into sell mode. We must stay with those who are getting better.
3. I believe that, rather than hurt the mojo in the clubhouse, this will give a real spark to the players.
4. Even with our returning rotation pieces, fatigue, and injury are still a possibility. Also, there are no performance guarantees with Greene and Lodolo.
5. If the SP trade gives us someone who will be around for another year or more, it only makes sense to make this kind of move today rather than in the off-season.
6. This move would do a lot to get the vomit taste out of our collective moths that the ownership put there with “Where else are you going to go?”
7. I’m heading to Cincy soon with several friends and I want to see a win.
We are not guaranteed to be in this position again soon.
Why do you think that? Why don’t you believe in this team? Why don’t you think they can become like the Braves, a perennial contender? Do you not trust the talent? Do you not trust the coaching?
I’m really curious where this “there’s no guarantee the Reds can compete next year” idea comes from. Talented teams compete. The Reds are talented. So why can’t they compete next year?
I agree with you. Does not mean there is some rest, but it is minuscule. To make a trade solely based on you thinking this is a short window, or could be a short window, will be foolhardy in my estimation. No way in the world does a man as sharp as Nick Krall think this way, so we are safe.
Risk not rest
There are so many things that can go wrong. As we have seen this season, injuries to a key player or two can almost wash out a season.
Some of the rookies are bound to regress. The NL Central probably won’t be dormant for long. St. Louis will probably be much better next season.
Remember, the Reds were poised to win in 2020 and then Covid hit. Again anything can happen.
The rookies won’t be rookies long and in four or five years, we will probably be in another rebuild. Unless, you think the Castellini is going to pay EDLC a half a billion dollars to stay in Cincinnati. I don’t think that will happen.
Knowing that the Reds window in small, it’s imperative for the Reds to go all in this year.
@Votto4life
Some of the rookies are bound to regress.
Ok, so what you’re saying is you don’t believe in the talent. Other teams can find good players who can be good for years, but the Reds can’t do it.
Thank you for explaining your position. I disagree with it, but I respect you for explaining what your issue is.
As we have seen this season, injuries to a key player or two can almost wash out a season.
All teams have injuries. Good teams can overcome those injuries. The Reds have had injuries, but they are still competing for a playoff spot. Doesn’t that mean they are a good team?
The rookies won’t be rookies long and in four or five years, we will probably be in another rebuild. Unless, you think the Castellini is going to pay EDLC a half a billion dollars to stay in Cincinnati. I don’t think that will happen.
People said the same thing about Hunter Greene, that he was heading to the Dodgers as soon as his rookie contract was up. Then the Reds locked him up.
Why don’t you wait and see what Krall does before assuming?
The obvious answer is, look at all the teams that thought they were going to compete this year and aren’t. Cards, Mets, White Sox, etc. you just simply can’t schedule being good and competitive. You sieve the opportunity when it presents itself.
V4L, I disagree with your point that another rebuild is 4 or 5 years away. The evidence does not support your point. Someone posted the Reds top 25 prospects under age 21 yesterday, and it is impessive. NK has transformed the organization into a monster in about 15 months. They are set up for sustained success.
If I were the Reds, I would consider trading a couple of the guys from AAA with OPS over .900 and major league experience and Jose Barerro if they can improve the pitching for the rest of the year. That’s pretty much it.
CJ, the keyword is “guarantee” Can you guarantee that injuries, performance levels, and sheer luck will not play a role in upcoming seasons? For example, Stephenson’s, India’s, Ashcraft’s and Lodolo’s performances have all dropped off. Half of our pitching staff has been on the IL. Additionally, the Cards and Cubs are having bad seasons which has worked to our advantage. New talent is mercurial. Many of us remember that Barrerro was the second coming of Christ until he wasn’t. Aquino is playing in a foreign country. There is no guarantee that the farm will reproduce what we currently have happening.
“Talented teams compete” Yes, and every year talented teams fail to make the playoffs. Too many examples to list here.
Many of us want long-term success as well as short-term moves that take advantage of where we are at this point in time. India will not be in the long-term plan for Cincy. I’ve often argued as to India’s value to this team. However, we might as well utilize what leverage we have with him now and get some pitching that will help us NOW and Later.
To Pete’s point that Krall wouldn’t do this. If Krall won’t do this, then why is this article published saying that the Reds are letting it be known that they are willing to consider trades for India?
Finally, for all of you who somehow think this opportunity will come around often, look at these numbers.
-Reds have not made the playoffs in 38 out of the past 45 years. (Strike year was no playoff)
-Reds have not won a playoff series since 1995. 28 years.
Finally, get this number in your head. 1990
CI3J,
What one might be trying to distinguish from is this. . .
Something like with Elly right now. Obviously, he has the tools, aka the talent. But, we also saw that Aquino had the tools, aka the talent. The trick is the mental.
Talent will get the kids up to AAA and even the majors. But, in the majors, it’s all about making adjustments. Once up, they are going to make adjustments to you. Then, you make adjustments to them, and so on. Can they do that? Also, some people call it. . .”Everyone knows they still have a lot to learn”.
From what I’ve seen, if they don’t learn up here, they aren’t even going to be a serviceable major leaguer.
Tim, this is an excellent post. I agree on all points.
I would only add that there is another factor in play here. Jonathon India will be hitting arbitration soon and moving India now will save the Reds money. After all, this is still the Castellinis we are talking about.
1. Deadline trades do not guarantee short term success. Having a very solid young core is the best indicator for future success. This is a illogical argument based on a false premise.
2. True.
3. I agree. The players want to win and we should expect a professional response to any trade.
4. A trade doesn’t change any of these contingencies. All remain plausible.
5. The Reds currently control nine pitchers who have made major league starts and remain candidates, plus Phillips, Petty, and Lowder. Trading for a team controlled pitching could tie up resources long term to cover a short term gap.
6. I understand this sentiment, but I don’t believe you or others really feel this way, nor should you. The Ownership group has fallen well short of their stated goals of delivering winning baseball in Cincinnati. They should be evaluated on the win/loss record moving forward, not for public gestures or short term investments. They have acquired a controlled pitcher before who won the first ever Cy Young award and squeaked into the playoffs before he left as a free agent. No one is celebrating that effort anymore, nor should they.
7. Have a great time at the game!
As always BK, I agree with what you say. On point.
The Mets did exactly what folks are recommending the Reds do. They seized the moment. Broke the bank. Didn’t win. And are non-entities now. How did seizing the moment work out for them? Seattle seized the moment and picked up Castillo, a top of the rotation guy. Where are they? What about the Angels? Padres?
There are a lot more seize the moment failures than successes.
Well, since a logical and technical point of view, India is a clear candidate to be trade. There have been rumors recently about that since McLain and EDLC successful promotions.
Some intriguing pitchers with some years of control are Shane Bieber, Cal Quantrill, Aaron Civale (Cleveland) , Dylan Cease, Michael Kopech (WS) , Patrick Sandoval (LAA) ,Paul Blackburn (A’s)….
I wonder if an India’s trade there would affect the team chemistry …
There has to be a seller. As the playoffs are constructed, there are really few teams that are “out of it” right now that the Reds could trade with, unless the Reds had something to trade to a contender that they wanted.
And everybody wants MORE pitching. Either relievers or starters. As the deadline gets closer, the asking price for that player commodity will go up.
And just because Nick Krall is dangling Jon India out there, doesn’t mean there will be a trade.
Cleveland has plenty of infielders already. In fact, they’ll be trading their shortstop most likely, and would probably be open to trading their guy at second, who’s having a mediocre year after signing a long extension. And, they’ve said they’d like to add a starter. No on Sandoval, who is usually not so impressive. I don’t see the White Sox trading Cease, but a deal with them is possible. Kopech could be available for a one-for-one deal. But what about the Marlins? Or Seattle? Or Dodgers? As far as the A’s are concerned, I’d like to see Ruiz come the Reds’ way–can you imagine adding a guy with 43 stolen bases to this team? Unfortunately, he’s not a solid defender and would probably end up, like India, as a DH.
I have long been in favor of trading India, given the glut of young infielders the Reds have.
However, I think trading him now would definitely be selling low. Personally, I’d give him the rest of the season to see if he can get his offensive stats up a bit, then try to trade him in the offseason.
I think as far as this season goes, outside of maybe getting a bullpen arm or two, the Reds should make a run with what they got. Then in the offseason, it will be time to make the final tweaks and really go all out next year. Hopefully now that all the positions are settled, the Reds can actually get off to a good start in April for once.
I agree and will add that any deadline acquisition for starting pitching, the commodity in shortest supply, will require the acquiring team to pay a premium. That fact worked out well for the Reds last summer, but will work against them this one.
Agree.
Heading into an important series, I hope the Reds don’t find this trade rumor mill distracting. I hope that India finds something within himself to prove FO wrong to even considering trading him. Go out and have a great series India.
This is the last thing they need to be thinking about right now. Really dumb for the FO to even mention this or let it out. This team has chemistry, India is a big part. For the love of God, stop this trade talk. Plus, how many really good starters or releivers are out there. Not that many.
It’s possible the timing of this announcement by Krall was motivated by the Milwaukee series. Maybe he feels strongly about the makeup of Jonathan India or this team and believes it might shake them out of their over- thinking, feeling the pressure hitting doldrums when playing the Brewers. Maybe it’s just a hunch…who knows. Point is, I don’t think the timing was unintentional.
I don’t want to say that I don’t care how they get the job done but this team needs to add a starter. Counting on Greene and Lodolo to not only come back on the exact timeline the team hopes for but to also perform well is too much for me. Go get someone and if those two do come back and perform as hoped then it is going to be great. But don’t just sit back and hope.
+1000
Dunn also is an unknown quantity. And while Kennedy and Mariot have had some success since signing late in the season, they’ve been hit hard of late. And Phillips has an innings limit, as do several other young Reds starters. They need one reliable starter, at the very least; landing just one starter would be playing it very safe. I’m sure Krall, et al. have weighed all the options and have decided that if just one player goes, India is the most expendable. Having said that, as someone above mentioned, it could all be but a decoy.
I am not worried about leadership and “chemistry” with this group. We can see the leadership transitioning and emerging just by watching the games on TV. The emerging leaders are EDLC, MMcL, and possibly Steer. I would not be at all surprised to see CES join this group over the next few weeks,
On the pitching side, Hunter Greene was emerging as a leader when he went down. Now in the short run, the guy who has been there and back again, Ben Lively seems to be filling that role along with Alex Diaz on the back end.
I have to agree.
I wouldn’t put CES, Elly, and McLain as leaders yet myself. They have enough to learn about playing up here. I’m afraid Steer does as well, though 1 year further along.
I would definitely be looking at the pitching, like Lively or Greene, if India gets traded. Maybe Fraley?
At last, for me, a leader would be someone like. . .who’s going to call a player’s only closed-door meeting if/when needed?
Elly holds a players’ only meeting down at the end of the dugout every time there is a Reds home run.
This whole India is the leader thing has always been silly. The guy says I’m going to be the leader in the offseason, so he’s the leader?
Elly is the spark plug to this team, and I don’t think any of the rookies are looking to India as the leader. These are very motivated kids, and they expect to win.
This theoretical person you speak of can’t be the 9th or 10th best player on the team, though. If Ryan Freel had stood up in from of Junior, Adam Dunn, whoever else and said “c’mon guys, get it together,” they would’ve laughed him out of the locker room, possibly off the team.
India is a good player, and sure he’s a veteran, but you need to be more than just that (on a team of this caliber) to be a leader of men. The last guy we had here who could clearly do that was Scott Rolen. He’s in the HOF. India, my friends, is not Scott Rolen. I love him – but no.
Readers who have participated in a team sport at an elite level will know what I mean.
I’ve certainly done it myself, but speculating about who is and who is not a leader on this team isn’t far from pointless. I believe that team leadership matters–and especially for a young team–but I don’t believe that our view, which is what the tv cameraman chooses to show us, is nearly encompassing enough for accurate evaluation.
@MBS>> I agree. Elly is the sparkplug who shows what can happen when guys push their envelope. MMcL is a hybrid sparkplug/ grinder. Steer is a grinder supreme. CES has the potential to lead by showing the value of situational hitting and not giving away PAs He is this in part because he has been there and done that being a chaser who was told to clean up his chasing to get the show and did just that.
EDLC is the face of the franchise, everything revolves around him, and he has the personality to be a star, which he already is. But Griffey was a star and was no leader. Votto too was a star, but he was never the leader that Rolen was, and maybe only became the leader by default, as the older players moved on. So I’m not sure that we can say that EDLC is now or will one day fill the team’s leadership role. Time will tell on that one.
I like that, Jim.
MBS,
Motivated is one thing. A 162 game schedule as a way of draining that motivation right out of players. Putting that on top of if the players are going to make their adjustments or not up here, which doesn’t have that much to do with motivation.
One could even question at times is it that they are “motivated” or that they are playing like it’s “little league”. There was talk about that earlier about these youngsters. This is the big leagues.
We have plenty of sparkplugs. No lacking there.
Agreed, jmb.
The leadership being discussed could even potentially come from the manager as well, though not common, and I definitely don’t think this one.
I agree, it’s pretty obvious to me Steer and McClain are becoming the leaders of this team.
Don’t confuse best talent with leader. Have you ever heard of a guy named Joey Votto? Best talent on the team for years and NEVER a leader. For those who suggest you have to be the best or among the best on the team, that is just silly, and spoken from guys who haven’t played a whole lot of team sports at elite levels. India’s toughness alone is probably highly respected which helps him in the leadership role. Notice it’s India who almost always places the homerun gear onto the shoulders of the player who just homered. India is the leader. Deal him in the winter, but dealing him now is a HORRIBLE move.
Agree Chris. I am not against making a marginal trade up to say Jose Barerro and maybe Nick Senzel. But I do not want them to trade any current contributor (Senzel not really contributing much). Not do I want them to trade any important future piece. They could add a bullpen arm by trading a guy like Barerro and add in one of the AAA .900 + OPS guys for a team that needs a hot bat for a playoff run.
Barerro could still be a productive major league short stop. It will be hard for him to get that opportunity in Cincinnati at this point.
As far as Votto is concerned it’s debatable I guess by some if his personality and work ethic projected leadership in the past. However, if you look at what’s going on now there is no debate in my mind. Time and time again I see players on the bench talking to him, picking his brain, and he giving everything he can to help them. Time and time again I hear of players talking about how they look up to Votto and how much/hard he works. It’s just amazing and inspiring to them. That’s LEADERSHIP.
It’s obvious that McClain and Steer are setting the tone for work ethic and EDLC is setting the tone for energy and supporting each other. And Benson is setting the tone by showing what hard work with the right strategy will do.
India was given an opportunity to sign a long term deal and he turned it down. That was his choice and that choice has consequences. I love him and wish he had signed a long term deal. But now he’s the 5th or 6th best IF on the team. But might be one of the best on a contending team and therefore, he’s tradable.
Did anyone else see the MLB article a few days ago that cited the Yankees as possible trade partners for starting pitching? Possibly Friedl, Benson, and/or Fraley?
https://www.mlb.com/news/yankees-rumors-latest-trades-and-signings
The Reds would be idiots to give up any of those three for a stopgap solution, especially Benson.
@CI3J, I don’t think you clicked on the article. They are talking about controllable pitching, not rentals. I wouldn’t be keen to move any of the 3, and like you said “especially Benson,” but I’m not sure what pitching they have that would be available either.
“Reds (TJ Friedl, Will Benson or Jake Fraley), Rockies (Ryan McMahon) and Mets (Jeff McNeil) as teams that have controllable offensive pieces to trade and might be interested in a swap for controllable arms, of which the Yankees have a surplus.”
You’re right, I didn’t click on the article.
I still think the Reds would be idiots to give up any of those three outfielders for a pitcher.
The Reds have
Greene
Lodolo
Ashcraft
Abbott
Lively
Williamson
as 6 perfectly good options for starting pitching. Yes, they could maybe upgrade on Lively or Williamson, but the Reds have also had a long-standing problem with fielding competent outfielders. Since the days of Jay Bruce and Billy Hamilton, the Reds’ outfield has been a musical chairs of short-term rentals, shoe-horn attempts (ahem, Nick Senzel), and decent but not spectacular players like Scott Schebler, Adam Duvall, and Tyler Naquin, to outright bad players like Aquino or Akiyama.
Now, suddenly, the Reds have stumbled into 3 actually good outfielders who could hold down their positions for half a decade… And the first instinct is to trade them away?
Sorry, no. The Reds have a glut of infielders. Trade them. Don’t touch the outfield.
@CI3J, I agree, I wouldn’t trade them away unless it was an offer we couldn’t refuse. Trading from depth is the smartest way to move forward.
Of the outfielders we have I’d say Fraley is the one most likely to be traded. Not saying I want that necessarily. The only thing I don’t like about Fraley is the platoon part. I’m still not convinced he needs that as much as David Bell thinks. I wish he’d get more time against lefties.
I think trading India would crater team morale and it would instantly end any playoff hopes. Last year the team started so poorly largely because morale was shot.
That said, this report is likely nothing. This is probably just the whole “anyone is available at the right price” deal.
Agree 1000 percent
I can’t help agreeing, also, jimbo. Maybe after the season, but not now. If now, I can’t help thinking it’s going to be a prospect. And/or a minor piece like Senzel, Newman, Maile, Casali.
That’s my thinking….this team is really devoid of Veteran Leadership. I’d be more inclined to move Stephenson if anything. Maile has been outhitting him anyways and is better defensively.
I think the Red’s best team on the field is with Maile behind the plate
Unless someone WAY overpays, no way I trade Stephenson. Remember the catching situation last year.
@wkuchad, agree. It boggles my mind how knee-jerk fans in here are. Team is doing great, but let’s trade a guy like Stephenson who can flat out hit, and is most likely on his low end because an injury like he had takes more than a year to fully heal from. You don’t deal from within the team, you deal from your minor league surplus. Why would you dare upset the chemistry on this team?
@Chris sorry but a surgically repaired clavicle fracture does not take more than a year to heal. I’m actually an Orthopedic Surgeon so I should know. Nice try though.
RedBB – it might not take more than a year to heal, but it may well take that long to recover the peak skills it takes to compete at the highest level of the game. Also have to remember that Stephenson not only missed time due to the clavicle fracture, but also to a thumb fracture and a concussion. Basically lost an entire year, and that takes time to get back to where one was.
With so many under performing teams, or at least perceived, under performing teams, Jonathan India makes a great trade target. In any other season, he may not be as valuable. Let’s look at the list:
Mariners
Mets
White Sox
Yankees
Indians
Red Sox
Padres
Cardinals
Any of these teams could be looking for a kick in the pants type player. If Jonathan India is anything, he is most certainly that. Perhaps there is a much larger market for his services then we might first suspect.
Mariners, White Sox, Angels, Dodgers. None of those other teams need a second baseman. The Marlins, too, might be a fit. Though, the Padres DEFINITELY need a kick in the pants!
There are a very limited number of teams that would trade ML surplus pitching for ML offense. Cleveland, Miami maybe are possibilities that come to mind. Additionally, White Sox are out of contention but they are not rebuilding and they have expiring pitching assets available. They would likely entertain India as a return. Not sure if any others.
Most of the other out of contention teams with expiring pitching assets will want controlled prospects, not India.
Also consider India is mostly a league average 2B., Is there much upside left? Debatable. He has value as a cost controlled league average 2B. His marketability is good, but not spectacular.
OK, second thought, India for Justin Verlander, or Max Scherzer? Mets are looking to cut away some Luxury Tax money, and they could use an inexpensive young player. Win, Win? They might have to kick in a big bag of $$$>
Definitely NOT Max Scherzer, due to his $43M player option for next year, which he will definitely be exercising.
Spent Money
Votto 7M
Myers 1.5M
Casali .75M
Griffey Jr 3.6M
Greene 3.3M
Total 16.15M
ARB Guys Keppers
Sims 2.5M
Dunn 1.5M
Law 2.0M
Antone 1.2M
Fraley 2M
Young 2M
Stephenson 2.5M
Total 13.7M
Total 30.2M
Possible Trade or Decline Options
Senzel 3.5M DROP
Newman 3.5M DROP
Total 7M
Total with keeping NS, KN 37.2M
Either way we’re just over or under 40M, adding Scherzer or Verlander’s salary to our budget shouldn’t be a consideration, it should just be is it the right move to win the most games. BTW I tried to guess the Arb cost, but I doubt I got any so far off that it affects the overall point.
***“Just over $40M or under $50M”***
Junior’s money should not be in there; it’s in a trust or something similar. It does not count against the payroll.
NO. NO.
Big salaries, declining skills, and they haven’t exactly put their current teams over the top.
I would maybe kick the tires on a Scherzer deal, but not for India. The one place where the Reds have space to play is on the payroll, if they were to be part of a deal for Max it should be the Reds taking all the salary and sending a low-level prospect in return.
I can see the rationale for trading Indy, but I wouldn’t do it now. Lotto tickets for BP arms is what I do now, and then use that payroll flexibility to sign one or even two FA SP’s over the winter.
1. Nobody is indispensable.
2. Usually wise to trade hitting for hitting, pitching for pitching.
3. Has second base become the worst position/dumping ground in the lineup?
4. India and Senzel didn’t play third base because of Eugenio.
5. Reds (for the Reds) have a whopping budget available next season.
6. Teams always need a good bullpen, and good bullpens don’t last long.
7. Who is the Reds ace starter? #2 starter?
Most of us thought that was the upcoming off season discussion, but it will be fascinating if the get a jump on it at the deadline.
1. True, but the Reds have traded away good players for peanuts before (a couple of closers come to mind). I’m good trading India only if we’re improving the team (both this year and next) in the process.
2. Why? I’ve read that before on this site (maybe from you), and I’ve never understood it. Unless you’re talking about prospects, then you trade from an area of strength (infielders) to obtain an area of need (starting pitching).
3. Meaning? If India is traded, it’ll be one of our best offensive and defensive positions with McLain covering.
4. We eventually tried moving Suarez to SS, but that didn’t work out too well.
5. Yes, and an above average starting pitcher is our #1 need (with bullpen improvement as #2).
6. Bullpen pitchers are more erratic in their performance from year to year than all other positions. That’s why it’s good to have a surplus.
7. This year – Abbott. Next year, I hope we have three to four #2 type pitchers, but we could just as easy have three to four injured or #4 type pitchers. Thus, see #5 above.
Agree with the “don’t trade til the off-season” crowd. Could be bad for chemistry and I do think India is a leader. He seems to bring guys together and who knows which rookies have that knack?
The coaches, etc. are going to have much more insight on team chemistry. If Krall is intent on making a trade, then I’d much rather trade India and a mid-level prospect instead of someone like Marte, to land a starting pitcher.
I agree it could have a bad impact on some of the young guys and India and votto are the leaders of this team without their presence in the locker room we would not be close at all to the playoffs. But we need somebody to help our pitching because other than Diaz and Abbott our pitching is terrible.
You must have meant with Votto’s presence in the weight room.
Don’t think the Reds care what I think, but I’m content to let it ride and enjoy this ride!
I can’t imagine a team giving up good starting pitching for India…. and I love India!
Do not agree that India isn’t good enough on this team to lead. Miggy Cairo was a leader and he barely played. You have to play hard and smart and be able to be honest with your teammates. Now you can’t swing at garbage like India with risp and strand people right and left. You better get 95% out of your ability if you want to lead
I have stated I wouild trade him for the right deal…not, repeat not for just any deal.
Also, I don’t know that they are “shopping” him, just that they are willing to listen to offers. Not many guys are actually untouchable. Elly, CES, Steer, and the young pitchers are the only ones…IMO
Bottom line is that India has trade value but he doesn’t fit into the long term plan. That & farm depth makes him expendable. We need pitching and to also create an opening for Marte, atleast for 2024.
Production usually picks it’s true leader, that’s who people gravitate to. Charisma or good people skills are usually a must along with production.
India hit better as a leadoff hitter but since being moved to 3 and to the 5th spot three major holes in his plate approach have been exposed; breaking pitches well off the plate, high fb’s above the strike zone, and low & in roll over pitches. He’s a middle middle hitter and that best served him atop the batting order.
Theres good pros & cons on both sides of the argument.
Their core belief system in themselves and their teammates are leading/driving this team.
Marte, Elly, McLain & CES are our primary infielders in 2024. Steer is an invaluable everyday player as well.
If this was mentioned previously above, my apologies. But what both the Reds and the teams that might trade with them have to decide is:
Which is the real Jonathan India? The 2021 version, or the 2022-23 version?
I would not group 22 and 23 version in same bucket. In 22 he was hurt and below average. In 23 he’s been healthy, productive, and at least average offensively.
And he’s still young enough to assume improvement. Other teams will hopefully factor that in as well.
From the article above: “If you look at second base, then rookie Matt McLain is looking like a better option there. He’s hitting better now than India hit as a rookie and much better than India’s hitting today. And he’s a much better defender.”
I believe that’s the answer. McLain is better than India’s best.
Pretty similar to the India we saw for the first part of the season. Are we assuming that he can’t regain that? Plus, there’s a chain reaction caused by moving McClain to 2nd: Elly,if he moves to short, creates a vacancy at 3rd. If he stays at third, there’s a vacancy at short. We have talented prospects, indeed, and one of them may be good enough to be part of a seamless transition. But maybe not. Unmentioned in all of this is that Elly himself is more closely resembling Aquino than he is the Elly of the first several weeks with the Reds. We trust that he will rebound, but he wouldn’t be the first phenom to flame out.
GMR, I see no vacancy at 3B. Every game, we have a “starter” on the bench. Trading India allows us to start all our starters. 3B can be covered by Steer, or CES, or Senzel if someone needs a day off, or even Marte if a starter gets hurt and goes on the IL.
Our deficiency and lack of depth is at starting pitching.
I’m not pushing to trade India. I only want to if it makes both this year’s team and next year’s team better. And I have to trust Krall/coaches to know the intangibles (i.e. leadership, etc.) better than me.
I take your point, wkuchad, but it does seem that the defense at 3rd would suffer with those options, though it’s also true that Elly may be the intended shortstop anyway. My point is more that the Reds, because of their unusual reliance on very young players, may be more subject to reversals than a veteran team would be. India is, at a ripe young age, one of the senior players and I don’t know how his being traded might resonate. However, like you, I have some faith in Krall.
McLain IS better than India’s best. The more I see McLain play SS the more I want to leave him there. Same way with EDLC at 3B.
I’d be open to bringing Lorenzen back here.
Not saying this is happening, but if you were a Milwaukee exec and wanted to upset the good vibes in the Cincy clubhouse, what would be any easy way to do so?
“Hey, you didn’t hear this from me, but Cincy is dangling India in trade talks.”
If the Reds are making this known to other teams, there’s no way they expected it to stay quite.
And if the Reds were actually trying to be discreet, the Brewers would not have been one of the teams they reached out to.
First thought I had after reading the story on MLB.com was that the “source” is someone on the Brewers’ payroll. Even if there is truth to the rumor, I can’t imagine Krall would be broadcasting it.
1000 percent correct. Thats why this rumor is bad for us already.
We just lost three games in a row to them 1-0,1-0 and 3-0. I believe we broke something like a 130-year-old Major League Baseball record for hitting ineptitude over that three-game stretch. Why would they want to change the vibe in our clubhouse right before beginning another three-game series with them, knowing how we have basically massively choked when we’ve played them? I don’t think their too concerned about playing us the way things have previously gone… no reason to take the chance doing something that may backfire and give us an edge that could turn the tide when we play this time.
Chris In Venice, you make a good point. I’m a believer in vibes and team chemistry and this surprising young team certainly has it. With this crucial series imminent, a rumor from the opposition of the generally acknowledged team leader being on the trade block makes sense.
Even if we do trade for India, I just don’t see what we can get back for him. I mean, Bell has slumped him bad. Where, if I was on another team, I would be thinking second about making the trade. The Reds would have to chip in something else for me.
But, that’s from the stance they would probably be talking. For, again, if I was on the other team, I’m looking for a leadoff hitter, not telling the Reds. And, India has been one of the better leadoff hitters in the league the last 3 years.
That’s ridiculous to suggest that Bell is responsible for a slumping India. In fact it’s just laughable. You hate Bell so much that you make up stupid stuff like that. So because India isn’t leading off, Bell is responsible for him failing while batting anywhere else? Really? So India has to play 2nd base or it’s all Bell’s fault?
Let the record reflect that I, one of Bell’s biggest critics, do NOT blame him for India’s hitting woes. I do think Bell could help the team (and probably India) by dropping him to 8th or 9th until he starts hitting consistently, but ultimately India is responsible for his own hitting. If he’s so bothered by hitting somewhere other than leadoff, he needs to see a therapist.
Yes, it can easily happen. Same exact reason why many people on here have said they aren’t for moving Benson up. . .they don’t believe Benson has the mentality for a top of the order batter.
Doesn’t happen with everyone. But, it isn’t uncommon at all, to put batters out of position.
For example, do you know who has the 2nd best leadoff average on the Reds this season? India, a tik over 370.
“Bell has slumped him bad” ? For God sakes just stop commenting today. First you want to DFA India and now it’s ” Bell slumped him bad”?
Another example of Bell’s actions with slumpers. . .
Elly starts to slump batting 4th for no more than 4 games. Bell moves him to leadoff to “fix” him, the term some people used here.
India gets put in the 3 hole starting on May 23 and starting slumping, for 2 months now, not 4 games. But, with India, “India is responsible for his own hitting”. Why isn’t Elly responsible for his own hitting? Why doesn’t India get any “fixing” and not Elly? India did bat well at leadoff before, 2nd best OBP on the team at leadoff.
If Bell had no responsibility, why move any batter at all?
See, it’s the difference between an “on base” guy, and a “power guy”. India has always been the former, not the latter. Bell wanted him to be the latter. He can’t.
Fun fact: In 2023, India’s batting average is higher as a #5 hitter than as a #1, and his OPS is nearly identical. If you want to come up with some convoluted story about India feeling more pressure to be a power hitter at #3 than #5, go right ahead, but I think the more likely explanation is simply that he goes into slumps sometimes, and he happened to be slumping for much of the time he was hitting 3rd. As I recall it, the reason he was ever given the leadoff position in the first place is that he was doing a good job of getting on base when he was hitting lower in the order, and Bell thought “maybe this guy should lead off.” It wasn’t the other way around.
It took 90% of the thread until MBS pointed out the salary commitments next year are beyond miniscule. Krall has spoken recently of payroll flexibility. IMO the responsible move at the trade deadline is to simply add payroll to acquire pitching and not subtract on the position side. Go get the guns for hire. To me, it’s too early to declare CONTROLLABLE starting pitching a need when you have 40% of the rotation on the shelf and another (Phillips) knocking at the door. The quality and depth exists, it’s just not on the same schedule as the position players.
The Reds have the 6th best OPS in baseball from second base. India is middle of the pack among qualified second baseman (98 OPS+), yet everyone thinks he’s Jose Peraza. Besides McLain, who else has the skill set to play there? Newman?
Trading him seems illogical to me.
McLain is our 2B of the future (I hope). I’m fine with that starting now (only if an India trade makes sense and improves both this year’s Reds and next years).
As far as backups to McLain, both Senzel and Steer have played 2B (although very limited for Steer). And yes I’d 100% play Newman there against any lefty starter (if McLain was hurt of needed a day off). Or if McLain went on the IL, I’m guessing Marte could handle 2B in a pinch.
I hope you are wrong there. I think McLain should be the SS of our future, with Elly staying at 3rd. Elly isn’t as good as McLain at SS IMO. I would look to deal Marte and have Arroyo as my 2nd baseman in the future, if not my SS, and then McLain to 2nd. For now though, I’m not moving India until the winter.
India like most players can be had for the right price. With the Reds getting back Lodolo and Greene in the next 3-6 weeks, Phillips knocking at the door and found money in Abbott , Lively and (Williamson as of late) seems like Reds should not trade India. Krall would be remiss in his duties as a GM if he did not listen to all offers for anyone on the team. The fact that India is tradeable should not come as a shock to anyone. So if I am the GM I do not trade him hoping for a better outcome this year. I wait till next year when we have a much better idea where our SP is and have the money to go after meaningful FA. Unless of course it’s the absolute right deal somehow comes along.
Agree. And that’s the problem I have with this article. It says trading for SP. the Reds have needs, as with all teams, but I don’t think it’s SP. relief pitcher, I heard that Antone is on his way back, but should we count on someone that has not pitched in 2 years? If a trade opportunity is there to get a good LH receiver though, I would consider it seriously, whether we give up India or Stephenson or prospects.
So you would go with an all-rookie infield in September, none of whom have played a season to the end of September before? When rookie mistakes happen, and they will happen, who is going to provide the leadership that group needs? India provides more than batting average.
Votto
Vottto has .244 average, 10 hits, 1 rbi in 11 career playoff games. I wouldn’t call him reliable veteran bat for the playoff
I agree with your point on having veteran bat for playoff. I would trade India for a reliable veteran bat. I remember year back we traded for Gregg Vaughn and what a difference he made.
Would you prefer pitchers who never pitched in September before?
As a rookie Josh Becket went to Yankees stadium and shut down the the Yankees for Miami in that World Series. Of course we’re not talking about the Reds will trade for top notch pitcher here. I would take a veteran bat over 3rd or 4th veteran starter. But that’s just me 🙂
Look like SF is losing again. So they’ve lost 3 to Nationals and now to Detroit. I dont think they have the offense to compete. If they decide to sell and make Tyler Rogers available for trade, I would look at it. The guy is good but on top of that his pitching style is a beauty to watch. I think his hand or face almost touches the ground when he releases the ball.
I’m old enough to remember Herb Score, a young Cleveland pitcher with seemingly limitless potential. He also finished his delivery with his face very close to the ground, and got hit in the eye by a line drive he couldn’t see coming. He was never the same, nor was the guy (Gil MacDougall of the Yankees) who hit it.
Thank you for this historical fact.
1000 percent correct. Thats why this rumor is bad for us already.
Sorry, duplicate post
I have mixed feelings about trading India for various reasons, but one of my biggest concerns is the fact that someone is inevitably going to be injured, and I’m not sure what that will mean if the injury is a middle infielder. Who’s the everyday second baseman if India is gone and someone gets hurt? Newman? Senzel? Steer? Lopez? I’m not too thrilled about any of those. Am I forgetting someone?
As of today if India were traded it would be:
1. Steer
2a. Barrero
2b. Senzel
2c. Newman
5. Reynolds
6. Lopez
That’s still pretty good depth, assuming another area of the team is strengthened.
Marte? A SS should be able to transition to 2B. He’s .324/.364/.515 in AAA. I also like Reynolds, or Senzel. Reynolds has been killing AAA, and he was ok last year. Senzel has been making some big plays, and maybe he’d step up with another shot at an everyday spot.
You could also CES 3B EDLC SS McLain 2B, Votto 1B and still have Steer.
Lots of scenarios
Oh no another Reynolds homer. I would gladly take him over Newman. The fact is that an asset was traded for Newman and I think Reynolds was a free agent.
Everyday:
McLain>2B
EDLC>SS
Steer>3B
Newman could backup all 3
Barrero could backup all 3
CES can backup 3B
Senzel could backup 2B/3B
So the Padres just dropped Odor, a 2B, and there’s rumors that Soto is being shopped.
India 17
Snell 7.2
Hader 2.9
Plus a low A flyer?
If the Padres offered Snell and Hader for India, I don’t think the Reds would care at all that the Trade Simulator didn’t think it was a fair deal. This year’s team would become significantly better with little loss of future potential.
No, but you don’t get what you don’t ask for.
haha I just saw this news, looked on here, and already 206 responses and counting. lol
@Melvin>>Even beats my Fraley proposals!!! 😉
But if there is any juice at all to the rumor, it proves my underlying theory that Krall will lead with a 26 man roster guy to hold onto as much prospect capital as possible.
Everybody wants to use the Rays plan until an actual name fitting that plan gets plugged into the conversation.
JIm, I have been saying for a while now that if we were following the Rays plan, India should be traded this year. I figured Krall would wait until the offseason though. I don’t think the salary or return for TySteve would be enough, same with Lodolo and ashcraft. You can’t move Diaz right now due to how important he is and Greene signed an extension. India is a must move in my book either now or this offseason, especially when you take into account he is a Boras client and they never sign team friendly deals.
LIneout out, and no India. Maybe just a pre-planned coincidence.
Lineup, not lineout.
1De La CruzSS
2FriedlCF
3McLain2B
4FraleyRF
5Steer3B
6Votto1B
7Encarnacion-StrandDH
8StephensonC
9BensonLF
Either Votto or India needs to sit. It’s hard to sustain any kind of rally with both of them in the line up, plus trike out machine know as EDLC. Look like Bell made his choice, maybe because Votto been sitting and I have to say Votto might have been the best hitter the last time we played the Brewers.
I know I am just beating a dead horse here, but Benson needs to be moved up, EDLC Needs moved down and CES needs up too.
1. Benson (obp/spd/pop)
2. Friedl (speed)
3. McLain (avg/spd/pop)
4. Fraley (platoon power)
5. Steer
6. CES (may be helped out with Votto behind him)
7. Votto (platoon)
8. Stephenson (yes)
9. EDLC (Bell likes a speed burner at the bottom)
I know it doesn’t make a lot of sense having EDLC last but it gives him a low pressure spot to work on his contact skills. Plus, Bell loves the idea of a disruptive force at the bottom. Once he gets some ability to spread the ball a bit better, then move EDLC back up.
@jason I love that lineup. Assuming you have to play the 9 that are penciled in for today of course.
Maybe a trade is already cooking
Or it is one heck of a coincidence.
India DOES NOT like days off and just had one recently. Interesting he’s not in the lineup.
But *someone* has to sit today. It’s not going to be one of the lefties (Votto isn’t going to accept another day off, especially not in Milwaukee), so that leaves CES, Steer, or McLain. While I think Bell is somewhat crazy, he would be extra crazy to start India in place of one of those guys right now. The most obvious candidate for him to replace would be Votto, but Bell’s simply not going to do that.
Yep. Not sure logic plays into it though. You never know? The thought crossed my mind that maybe Krall is close to a deal but wanted every other team to know he’s available in case they could come up with a better offer. Probably just like you said though. Lots of guessing and speculation going on this time of year. 🙂
India? I like him, but thats a tough one? The only sure thing is I see no value in announcing he’s available?
League average ops is .730 and he’s .749
Gabp park adjustment and I’d say .730 is probably .760 with 3-4 cheap HRs sprinkled in with a hitter of any power. India is .828 at home and .669 on the road. He was under .700 on the road last year too at .682.
Replacements? Marte obviously long term leading candidate, but currently? Steer to 3B, but I don’t want Votto full-time. Barrero for one last dance with McLain to 2B. Steer permanently to 3B gets Jim & I’s boy Stuey back in the Show so lets go for that))
Problem is India isn’t bringing back Snell/Hader the other way. Probably not either one? Maybe a Lorenzen and a minor league kid? A good part of me agrees with much of RLN that India loves leadoff, but I doubt they want to move Elly again. I vote they deal someone else and let him try to build up his #s and trade value in the offseason. Hit him 7th or something
Marcus Semien was a worse hitter then India in his first 3 seasons
I’ve enjoyed watching Tony all of these years, but he’s blocking Driessen. I’m sure the Reds will do ok without the Big Dog
And, for those of us that were Reds fans back in the 1970’s , was that a dumb move, with perfect hindsight.
After Ken Griffey (the elder) left the team, he said that Driessen was not a 4-5 hitter, but more like a #2 hitter. That was the right spot for him. According to Griffey.
Bingo!
I try not to read too much in trade rumors, but it is odd India isn’t starting today.
So many pros and cons to consider. It makes me happy that I don’t have to make the decision, and that I can just sit back and watch what happens.
As I’ve said before, trading India seems like a classic Deal-with-the-Devil — you may get a nice reward as part of the deal, but you give up the soul that would have any capacity to enjoy the reward. Which is to say, I’m not sure this team’s turnaround would have been possible without India’s heart, drive, leadership, and passion for the Reds’ success.
Then again, some parts of baseball are more practical than sentimental. India just isn’t producing very much, and the tangible benefits may outweigh the intangible ones. Again, I’m very glad that I don’t have to make the decision. What will be will be, and I’ll root for the team that the front office believes in.
I agree with most of what you said however, he’s tied for the team lead in home runs and is in the top 3 in RBI’s. I’d say that he’s producing quite well for a 2nd baseman
If India IS traded I’d like to say that Marte, having been a SS, could play 2B now. He looks to big to me though and just doesn’t strike me as a second baseman. Maybe I’m wrong.
I think this would have a devastating effect on the morale of the team. Even Joey has said that he feeds off of India’s energy. Don’t trade him-not this year
Agree. Sports, as is life, is not always about numbers.
I know it’s not this easy, but I wish India would lose the pull happy slugger persona, and use all fields. I remember him doing that so much more as ROY, and I do wonder if the pressure of being the “leader” and “middle lineup hitter” has influenced his approach this year. I love his energy, leadership and it seems like he is in the middle of all the celebrations and a key piece of the winning culture. I have no problem with them measuring his trade value now, to use for an off season trade rather than an actual one now. Senzel and/or Newman, Maile and combined with some of the AAAA depth are much more likely to see a new home in the next month IMO. Hopefully in exchange for bullpen arm(s). I’d role with this team. We have too many pitching holes to really compete in the playoffs to trade valuable farm chips this year. But ownership better spend some money going into 2024 to supplement this young nucleus or I’ll be disappointed.
Overall I feel the team has recently been slipping more into the HR swing mode rather than the small ball/speed approach from earlier in the year. The talent level allows them to continue to play well overall, but against tougher pitching (most certainly playoffs) the small ball approach to all fields will be more effective IMO.
I think Elly, India, and Votto are the most guilty parties of this.
Casali to 10 day IL, Newman back from 10 day IL.
Stoudt to Louisville, Duarte back up from Louisville.
Hopefully that is the last we’ll see of the 3 active catchers ever.
This feels like manipulation of the IL to avoid making a decision on Newman or Casali
That’s exactly what it is. We’ve seen this game played before.
Perhaps this is an experiment — just to see how it feels to work with a more sensible roster. If it makes Bell uncomfortable to have so many options, Newman will get sick again and Casali returns.
Hmm Who know’s what they’re thinking?
I played catcher most of the time throughout school. It SUCKS to have a contusion on your foot with all your gear and everything else on.
I’m sure it is, but this is probably a “contusion” rather than a contusion. He’s played in one game since July 6. Unless he’s been injured that entire time, in which case it’s weird that he remained on the active roster, it seems a bit too coincidental that he suddenly got hurt — having not played in a game for five days — on the same day Newman was ready to be activated. I think they offered him the choice of being DFA’d or having a contusion, and he chose contusion.
I mean I’m sure it DOES suck (not “is”).
Wait, the Reds are going with only 2 catchers???? That would be something.
This is going to be David Bell’s biggest challenge yet. Can he somehow manage to survive without a guy who almost never plays and serves no obvious purpose other than moral support? If he can handle this, he can handle anything.
I continue to have mixed feelings about potentially trading India, but I’m afraid I’m not at all moved by the various predictions about what might or might not happen without him. Every time this organization does anything, lots of people act as if they know exactly what’s going to happen, and lots of those people are totally wrong. Supposedly, this year’s team was going to be absolutely terrible because they got rid of all their good players. And when they didn’t sign Cueto, that was supposedly a terrible mistake. When they dropped Farmer, that was supposedly a devastating blow to the team’s morale. etc. etc. Nobody knows what the effect of trading India would be other than the fact that the Reds would lose India and get someone else. It’s fun to speculate, I suppose, but I just can’t take any of it seriously — given how many utterly wrong predictions I’ve read on this site and others.
What you say is true, but if you look at 2022 as an example the Reds went through two deep troughs.
The first right after the Suarez-Winker trade, on the heels of the earlier Gray deal.
Hard not to project some of the 3-87 start was in response to the team ‘chemistry’ being so rattled.
Then the team / clubhouse reformed and they played good ball for a pretty good stretch.
Then came the huge unload: Castillo, Mahle, Drury, Naquin.
And the team fell back apart.
Of course they missed their productivity, but impossible to write off the psychological effect as well.
I’m not suggesting this will also occur if India is traded, but team vibes are real.
Ask anyone who has played a team sport.
The team is in a whole other place than it was last year with many new faces.
The loss of one player may not have the same effect as trading away 7 or 8.
Only bringing this up to put it on the radar, not be contentious.
I have no doubt that when the front office unloads major league players for prospects, it has negative psychological consequences on the players who remain on the major league team. It sends a message “we’re not expecting to win anytime soon,” and the effort and enthusiasm will probably drop. Fair enough. That’s a reasonable thing to predict. But questions like “what will happen if they trade a popular player for a different player whose talents are more in line with what the team needs right” are just impossible to answer.
Agreed.
I just hope it’s in the calculus somehow.
The Cincinnati-Louisville shuffle seems bizarre sometimes.
The stomach-bruise / foot-itis scrambling, however cagey also could use some clarification.
My hope is those folks aren’t getting jacked around.
Duarte and Stoudt wouldn’t be remiss if they felt that way.
I know….”other teams do it!”
Does it bother anyone else that the Reds’ front office would “Announce” that they’re willing to trade India. Just seems to me an odd thing to announce, before it happens
I doubt that the front office said anything at all. I also give very little merit to rumors started via the media. Of course they would be willing to trade India.
I don’t think anyone is claiming the front office announced this in any sort of public sense. What’s been reported is that “sources” say the Reds have told other teams they’re willing to trade India. I would assume those “sources” are most likely connected to the other teams, not the Reds. Perhaps the motive is to try to cause problems for the Reds. Or perhaps people just like to feel important by leaking a story. Who knows. If the Reds want to trade a guy, they have to let that be known to other teams, and they can’t control what happens to the information.
So many of us are consistently wrong?
Would you say like “losing 17 seasons out of 20” wrong?
I think keeping India would be fine for this season (maybe trade during the offseason) but he needs to be a bottom of the lineup guy from now on. He is not a power hitter but Bell cast him into that spot at 5. He is also not a number 3 guy who makes enough contact. He did alright as a leadoff guy but I think he would be a solid 7 or 8 hitter on this team.
The Reds are loaded, my boys. The lineup does not need India in a high leverage spot.
@jason Bingo! Could it be Bell’s unwillingness to bat India down in the order where he belongs that leads to this? Also, the Casali move is a bit of a head scratcher. Maybe Nick Krall is taking control over some of Bell’s more puzzling moves before it’s too late…
Think “Moneyball” scene where Billy Beane trades Carlos Pena so Art Howe has to play Scott Hattieberg. After all Krall started his career in Oakland.
@jason I think you are on to something. Could David Bell’s unwillingness to bat India down in the order force Nick Krall’s hand? And what the heck is this deal with Casali? Is this a possible power play between Krall and Bell?
Indy, I’m not going to sort through all the zillions of wrong predictions to prove what I’m talking about. But surely you recall how many people confidently stated before this season began that the Reds could not *possibly* be *anything* other than *terrible* in 2023 because they had traded away most of their legitimate players? Supposedly the best players they had left were India and Stephenson (these were supposedly cornerstones of the organization), and *maybe* one or two of the young guys could do something useful this year? And surely you read all the posts about how the Reds would be *crazy* not to sign Cueto because they desperately “needed” a guy like that? And the various claims that Steer might be a good guy to have on the bench, but he’s never going to be anything special. And the people who watched Benson struggle and confidently announced his spring training stats were a fluke and he just wasn’t very good. And the people who claimed the bullpen was going to be absolutely horrendous this season because the Reds hadn’t signed anyone good and all these guys suck except for Diaz (and maybe Sims). Those were just a few of the very confident predictions I read (multiple times) this year. And that’s just THIS year. And just off the top of my head. So forgive me if I really don’t buy the predictions about what will or won’t happen if India is traded. I’ve discovered that commenters don’t always know.
Reds FO didnt “announce” anything. An opposing franchise leaked something or made up something or a twitter click bait made something up. Social media twittering at its finest.
This is overblown. Of course everyone this side of hunter greene elly and McLain are available . The devil is in the details.
If the white sox are convinced a Dylan cease trade is what restarts their rebuild and india plus Petty plus some one else fuels that…. Great
Same with marlins if they decide Alcantara doesnt fit their window… sure india plus prospects. This isnt happening tho’
This is east coast twittering
Cant wait for more tweets Yankees wanting reds guys in one sided deals. Jon Heyman is lurking soon
Great, Thanks for the clarification
That’s because they didn’t announce it.
Interesting moves just now. Casali on IL with foot contusion, and Newman is back in the fold. Meanwhile, Duarte is up again, and replaces Stoudt.
Give Krall credit. Gastritis and a foot bruise buys you 20 more days of roster maneuvering.
“Surprised” that Newman didn’t need a minor league rehab so that Fairchild could come up and bring some speed/D to the late innings.
Yeah right. BIG surprise. 🙂 I think if we do trade Newman David Bell might go with him. lol
Deal.
Now how did I know someone was going to say that? 😀
Ought Oh! Calm down Dennis. Leadoff walk. Only the first inning. 🙂
….and the walk scores. Amazing. That’s rare isn’t it?
Random thought…assuming India is traded either by the deadline or this winter, do the Reds sign/acquire a veteran hitter for 2024 and beyond? Even if Votto gets re-signed, he is likely to be a bench player. Stephenson would be the only true veteran, and he would have exactly three years of experience. Do the Reds attempt to acquire a veteran everyday player who’s had postseason success? What position? RF seems to be the biggest opportunity to upgrade, given the platoon situation.
If the Reds trade India, I expect a good return. GM has a good overall track history on trades, so I do have confidence in him. I am not convinced India will be traded. One way or another, pitching help is needed.