The Cincinnati Reds’ losing streak reached six games tonight with two losses to the San Francisco Giants before 26,569 at Great American Ball Park.
| Final | R | H | E |
|---|---|---|---|
| San Francisco Giants (54-41) | 11 | 11 | 1 |
| Cincinnati Reds (50-46) |
10 | 14 | 1 |
| W: Alexander (6-0) L: Farmer (2-5) Sv: Doval (30) |
|||
| Statcast | Box Score | Game Thread | |||
The numbers immediately above represent the second game of the day, which was the regularly scheduled game. In a suspended game that resumed at 5:40 p.m. Eastern time, San Francisco scored two in the top of the 10th inning for a 4-2 victory.
First-place Milwaukee lost to Philadelphia, but still gained ground on second-place Cincinnati. The Reds are now 2 1/2 behind in the National League Central Division.
In the six-game losing streak, five of the losses have been by one run. The other game was the two-run loss in today’s first game. Currently, the Reds are doing just enough to lose on a consistent basis. When the pitching excels, the hitters don’t produce. When the hitters produce, as was the case in the second game, the pitching can’t keep the opposing hitters quiet.
The Offense
Cincinnati’s offense broke out of its doldrums of the past six games. The big highlight was rookie Christian Encarnacion-Strand’s first major-league hit, a three-run upper-deck home run that gave the Reds a short-lived lead in the fifth. Later in the game, he hit an opposite-field single to right. He, Matt McLain and Spencer Steer had two hits apiece. Jake Fraley, Will Benson and Joey Votto also hit homers.
Trailing by a run in the bottom of the first, McLain singled and Fraley followed with his 13th homer to give his team a 2-1 lead. An inning later, Steer and Benson, respectively, duplicated those feats in the same sequence to provide the Reds their first three-run lead in what seems like millennia. It was Benson’s fifth homer.
With the score tied in the bottom of the fourth, Giants lefthander Sean Manaea came on to replace starting pitcher Anthony DeSclafani. T.J. Friedl led off with a bunt single and advanced to second on a McLain ground out. Fraley was plunked and took first base. With Jonathan India up, the runners broke early on a double steal attempt. Manaea stepped off, but uncorked a wild throw past third which allowed McLain to score for a 5-4 Cincinnati lead.
Trailing 7-5 in the bottom of the fifth, it was time for the rookie show. Elly De La Cruz led off with his first hit since the All-Star break, and McLain walked. Manager David Bell then pinch-hit rookie Encarnacion-Strand for Fraley. Giants Manager Gabe Kapler countered by bringing in righthander Mauricio Llovera. Encarnacion-Strand responded in a memorable way, exploding a pitch into the left-field upper deck for his first major league hit, homer, and RBIs. It put the Reds 8-7 after five innings.
426 feet
105.8 MPHCRUSHED?? pic.twitter.com/nkF9vRyRY5
— Cincinnati Reds (@Reds) July 19, 2023
Iconic pic.twitter.com/CB7fABZsmp
— Cincinnati Reds (@Reds) July 19, 2023
Votto provided a breath of life for the Reds in the seventh. Trailing 11-8, Votto smashed a two-run homer to left-center field — the 350th of his career — bringing the home team back within one run.
In the eighth inning, Tyler Stephenson pinch-hit for Friedl and doubled, representing the tying run. McLain ripped a pitch on the button at 108 mph, but right at the left fielder for out number three.
In the bottom of the ninth, Giants closer Camilo Doval allowed an infield hit to India with one out. Votto followed with a walk to represent the winning run. Steer then hit a ball 102.3 mph, but it was fielded by the second baseman who converted a double play to end it.
The Pitching
For the game, Reds pitching’s totals: 9 innings, 11 hits, 8 walks, 14 strikeouts, 11 runs, 10 earned.
With Luke Weaver on the mound, San Francisco’s Wilmer “Babe” Flores propelled two of the righthander’s pitches over the Great American Ball Park left- and center-field fences. A third-inning launch with two men on tied this game at 4-4. Flores became the first Giant since Barry Bonds to have eight bases (on batted balls) in two straight games.
After Flores’ second homer, Michael Conforto followed by lining a shot off Weaver’s non-throwing arm for a single. The Reds television camera shot showed that a large welt had begun to form on Weaver’s arm just seconds after the impact. After the game, it was reported that x-rays were negative. Weaver was removed after that injury, and lefthander Alex Young came on to get the final out of the inning. He then pitched the fourth, striking out the side.
Derek Law entered in the fifth, and allowed a two-out run-scoring single by Conforto to again tie the game at 5-5. Mike Yastrzemski then followed with a two-run double, giving the Giants a 7-5 lead and spelling the end for Law.
Daniel Duarte was victimized in the sixth when De La Cruz mishandled a double-play grounder, a play on which no outs were recorded. It eventually led to a game-tying sacrifice fly by Flores. Buck Farmer actually faced Flores but was not charged with the run.
In the seventh, Farmer and Tony Santillan combined to allow three walks and two hits that ultimately resulted in three Giants runs scoring, giving the visitors an 11-8 lead.
Santillan escaped a problematic top of the inning thanks to an astounding catch at the wall by Friedl:
GO GET IT, TJ. @TjFriedl1 pic.twitter.com/UUmqLOHlQ2
— Cincinnati Reds (@Reds) July 19, 2023
Fernando Cruz finished it off with a scoreless ninth inning.
Suspended game recap
Prior to the start of today’s regularly scheduled game, the two teams resumed last night’s game, which had been tied 2-2 with one out in the top of the eighth inning.
| Final | R | H | E |
|---|---|---|---|
| San Francisco Giants | 4 | 6 | 0 |
| Cincinnati Reds |
2 | 4 | 0 |
| W: Rogers (3-4) L: Gibaut (8-2) Sv: Doval (29) | |||
| Statcast | Box Score | Game Thread | |||
Play resumed with the Giants having runners on second and third and one out. Lucas Sims was Manager David Bell’s choice to face that challenge. Lefthanded batter Lamont Wade Jr. entered as a pinch-hitter for the Giants’ first hitter, J.D. Davis, and Sims struck out Wade for a big out number two. Sims then plunked catcher Patrick Bailey, bringing up lefthanded batting Mike Yastrzemski with the bases loaded. He then struck out swinging on a slider, as did Wade, leaving the score tied.
Came in and punched some tickets ????@LSims_ pic.twitter.com/N417oIHvDl
— Cincinnati Reds (@Reds) July 18, 2023
Alexis Diaz pitched the top of the ninth and retired the Giants in order.
In the bottom of the ninth, leadoff batter Elly De La Cruz walked and stole second, but was immediately picked off at second, after which the inning ended quietly.
Ian Gibaut pitched the top of the 10th. With free runner Mitch Wisely on second, Joc Pederson lined a double over Will Benson in left field to put the Giants up, 3-2. Pederson advanced to third on a ground-out, then scored on a screaming Michael Conforto grounder that Jonathan India was able to dive and stop, but his throw home was late to make it 4-2, which was the final.
Up Next for the Cincinnati Reds
San Francisco Giants at Cincinnati Reds
Wednesday, July 19, 7:10 p.m. ET
Ross Stripling (0-2, 6.11 ERA) vs. Graham Ashcraft (4-7, 5.95 ERA)
8 walks. We’re near the bottom in walks again. Can someone preach strike one?
Especially when 7 of them come within 4 innings of each other, from relievers.
Yes. Thank you. This nibbling on the corners is dumb. I hate it when the catchers put up a target outside the strike zone and then the pitchers hit the target and walk batters,… walks that eventually come back around and score and beat us. These pitchers need a target in the heart of the plate!!!!!!! Get ahead in the count, and then nibble a pitch or two (at the most) if you must. I pitched. If I had a count of 0 and 2, I’d still throw a strike. Someone quoted a stat recently that a pitch with an 0 and 2 pitch count was hit at a lower average than any other pitch count. Nibbling is for pitchers who don’t believe in their stuff,..for pitchers who are afraid to throw a strike. If you appraoch pitching with that mindset, then you get shellshocked,… like a Weaver. Believe in your stuff and challenge a batter!!! That’s what good pitchers do. Santillan walked in a run last night. How pitiful!!!
Four of the six losses were by one run. The Reds lost 3-0 on Saturday to Milwaukee.
The Reds should have a decent shot of winning tomorrow with Ashcraft going. However, Stripling has pitched well of late, but against inferior teams. Still, he has struggled to last more than 4 innings most times out. He doesn’t walk a lot of batters, but he still throws a lot of pitches each AB, which means the Reds need to be patient with him.
We’ll see. The Giants are on a run like the Reds were on in their 12-game winning streak, which means things are just falling their way and the team is playing with a lot of swagger right now.
The Reds are on a losing streak, but every single loss has been one big hit away from being a win. They have to break through sooner or later… Don’t they?
“, but every single loss has been one big hit away from being a win.”
Another characteristic of a young team, trying to find ways to win close games. Talent got them through earlier. But, now that the league has seen how to defend the talent. . .?
Really??…so the league figured out how to defend McClain’s rocket to LF at 108mph could/should have been rbi in the 8th, Steers bullet over 2nd at 103mph for the easydouble play to end the game but could/should have been the tieing/winning rbi’s… Steers scorcher deep rocket to RF could/should have been rbi in the 7th…. 3 rockets with runners in scoring position the last 3 innings…but instead just 4 outs…zero runs. More like just bad luck.
So they found a way to defend the talent, but let 10 runs score? LOL
Well, we’re playing terrible baseball, on a six game losing streak, but still only 2 1/2 back in July. This lineup is way too good to keep hitting like this especially with CES here. We’ve seen tonight that he does make a difference and him replacing Newman does give us a stronger bench. The bats woke up some this game. We’re just a streak away from forgetting about all this. We’re just a streak away from being in first place again. 🙂
The effect is the same although the Weaver (and Lively) injuries could not be foreseen. Some of us have been saying for a few weeks now that we have an overworked bullpen teetering on fatigue going into August and badly in need of 1-2 solid starting pitchers. Here we are 5 whole games into the second half and we are using our 27th man in games we are leading in the 7th inning! And that is with some pretty solid starting pitching in previous games. This isn’t on Bell as he made the choice to use Young, Gibault, Diaz, and Sims in Game 1. I know the Weaver crowd will say we won 8 straight with his 8 ERA but at the same time we have loaded up the bullpen with 5+ innings every time out. Krall, this should have been stopped weeks ago. Get Giolitto or Scherzer in here Now! We have lost leads in 2 of the last 3 games due to bullpen failures we hardly had the first half. 2-3 would feel a lot different than 0-5! Farmer, Law, and Diaz can’t pitch 3-4 days a week every stinking week. They are running on fumes at best. As I said then, the longer you wait, the steeper the climb back will be. This is a playoff level team that is crying out for pitching reinforcements (not minor leaguers) to get us through July and August until the wounded return. We have tons of prospects of which some will probably turn out pretty good. It is OK if that happens to the receiving team. We have plenty more and opportunity is knocking Now!
I will say this is on Bell some. He kept on rolling out reliever after reliever after reliever, rarely let a reliever go 2 innings, or even much past 1 inning, has pulled a reliever after only throwing 3-5 pitches just to get the last out of an inning. All of that just means we have to use our relievers more and more every game.
Then, when looking at the stats, I remember seeing that the Reds had at one time 3 of the top 10 relievers in games played. 3 of the top 10! 4 of the top 25 if I recall correctly. It was like Bell didn’t even know that relievers like DD and Cruz even existed. With Sims coming back from after a lengthy stay on the IL, it doesn’t help his rehab if Bell is going to be using him 2 out of every 3 games, 3 out of every 4, etc.
Then, I hear things like Bell is a “players manager”. Save me from the pain. No, he’s a “players manager for those who he wants to be a players manager for”.
In other words, Bell is what he is, a bottom of the barrel manager.
“We’ve seen tonight that he does make a difference”
One game is meaningless. We still lost. Show me a trend.
By the way, I said the same thing after CES’s first game, when he went “0 for”, that one game is meaningless, to show me a trend. What, “0 for” didn’t mean he doesn’t make a difference?
SS, first of all I am not a big fan of Bell. But he and the players had this team in first place in mid July. And sorry to disagree, but last night’s bullpen fiasco was not on him. Sure he ran alot of pitchers out there but they covered 10 innings of relief between the 2 games. And this was on a bullpen that had covered 7 innings between Sunday and Monday. He used his studs in Game 1 – which most of the scribes on here had recommended – and was left with 5 “second stringers” to cover 6 innings. You say leave these guys in for 2 innings. Young and Santillian came out for a second inning. Geesh, it was obvious to me that Law and Farmer and possibly Duarte were spent. The error on ELDC and McLain cost the Reds about 15 pitches. 3-4 of the pitchers were in the 30 pitch range. That is about 2-3 days worth for a reliever. What did they give up – 6 runs and you wanted more of that action. So who is left for tonight. Probably Diaz and Sims for an inning each. Maybe we will DFA somebody and call up another minor leaguer to cover 2-3 innings in case Ashcraft doesnt last. Brilliant. The core problem here is starting pitching length ….is and has been and Krall is not addressing it. Weaver and Williamson and Ashcraft have been the masters of the 4 inning start leaving 5 for the bullpen every other night. Not sustainable and never was. Overused bullpens have been known to crater in August. Looks to me like Farmer, Law, and Diaz are showing the early signs. As I said, the bullpen has given up 7th and 8th inning leads 2 0f the last 3 games. In the first half we had bullpen blowups but very seldom did we give up late leads. Think I heard something like 35-2 when leading going into the eighth. Not these last 3 games. They are gassed. Go ahead Krall and fritter away the 10 games over 500 and keep rolling Weaver (and others) out there. Opportunity knocks only so often.
“him replacing Newman does give us a stronger bench”
Should never bring a player like CES up to be a bench player.
🙂 You’re determined to keep digging, are you not?
One positive Tuesday night was that when a pinch runner was not used for Casali after he singled, it was pointed out that with Senzel and 2 catchers as the remaining bench, Bell’s hands were somewhat tied because if he used Senzel as pinch runner, he would only have the 2 catchers left and if one of them batted and reached there would be nobody to run for them plus Senzel’s bat vs a possible LH pitcher would be burned.
I did a double take because I couldn’t believe the TV guys were actually questioning (at least by inference) the 3 catcher system. Maybe there is hope.
It is truly baffling why the Reds still persist with carrying 3 catchers.
Ostensibly, the idea was that Stephenson would cycle among 1B, DH, and C in order to keep him healthy, so they would need the extra catchers to cover the (presumably 66% of the time) Stephenson wasn’t catching.
Then a funny thing happened. They abandoned the plans for Stephenson to play 1B altogether, and he’s been getting the bulk of the duties at catcher.
Given that the original plan has been abandoned, why do they still have the personnel in place for that defunct plan?
Hopefully the idea is that when Newman is back, that’s the end of the line for either Casali or Maile, to be replaced by Fairchild.
I would have to think that since the FO thought of the 3 C plan, that the FO would have done away with it. However, if they called Bell and asked of they still need 3 C, and Bell said yes, then the FO wouldn’t do anything.
That wouldn’t surprise me.
Sadak wasn’t questioning the three catcher thing. He was just rambling as usual and stumbled into a decent point.
lol
+100
The 3 C’s will come to an end soon. We got CES up here, but it’s hard to justify Casali remaining over Fairchild, Ramos, Hopkins, and Reynolds. Even Siani makes more sense, he’s didn’t have a great start to the year, but he’d make a great late game defensive replacement, or pinch runner.
If the Reds make the postseason, it will be interesting how they configure the roster. How few pitchers will they go with, how many catchers, and how will they fill any unused pitching spots?
I believe the same rosters are locked for the 3 and the 5 game series (except 1 for 1 injury replacements) but can be reset for the 7 game series.
Two more reasons why I hope they don’t mortgage the farm for a starting pitcher.
The team is a treat to follow, and gaining a lot of experience, but they are not yet a matured group. Keep having fun, cut down on mistakes, and wait for Greene and Lodolo to reinforce the rotation.
100% agree with this. The certainly seemed to start playing worse as soon as they started feeling even a little bit of pressure once they started getting national attention about being in 1st place.
I do know correlation does not equal causation, and there could be a myriad other factors why they’ve suddenly forgotten how to win, or it could be simple random chance, but either way, the message seems to be they are still too inconsistent to mount a serious challenge at this time. They may yet sneak into the playoffs, but they aren’t quite ready to truly compete.
In the offseason, when the pressure is off, that will be the time to acquire a starter and plug any other perceived holes in the team. Shoring up the bullpen with another quality arm or two (Chapman?) would also be ideal.
” they are still too inconsistent”
Exactly. No stabilizing force on the team. No leadership. No veteran presence. No player accountability.
The Brewers and Giants? Even though we have better players, they are well coached. Veteran presence. Leadership. Scouting. From top down. They make very few mistakes that are going to cost them games. You are going to have to go out and beat them.
Exactly
Are they is the same rut they’ve been in for the last several years? Great pitching, no hitting. Great hitting, pitching implodes. Or is that just baseball? Frustrating stretch but fun to watch. Go Reds!!
It is what it is. The real sorting begins now.
Hang in there. August is not far off and an injury-free starting staff of Greene, Lodolo, Ashcraft, Abbott and Lively plus a durable bullpen combined with a reawakened offense will tell the story.
TR
– an injury-free starting staff of Greene, Lodolo, Ashcraft, Abbott and Lively
– plus a durable bullpen
– combined with a reawakened offense
The only thing is, we don’t have any of those things. Plus, we don’t have a competent manager, no leadership, no veteran presence, no player accountability. We don’t have fundamentally sound baseball. That’s how the Brewers and Giants beat us. I don’t believe they have a young star amongst their team, but they beat us. Why? They make very few mistakes that’s going to cost them games. You are going to have to beat them.
Steve Schoenbaechler: I’m well aware of the reality of our favorite team. As a lifetime Reds fan, and at the age of 86, I take an optimistic viewpoint on this exciting baseball team and know success, perhaps not this year, but it is coming.
It’s a group of very young guys that will have ups and downs.
In hindsight I wish Bell would have pitched anyone else but Sims in that incomplete game.
Since the Reds could not come back with any runs it wouldn’t have mattered how all those guys in the second game would have pitched.
Then maybe Sims could have shut them down when the Reds needed it.
Probably Bell’s fault. He should have known who would perform and who would not.
That’s one thing I did like about Baker. Provided they didn’t get into some jam, he seemingly looked for all of his relievers except his closer to be able to pitch two innings. And, he wouldn’t have as much of a problem bringing in his closer to the 8th inning sometime.
Baker may have kept the pitcher in there a man or two too early or too late. But, under normal conditions, at least the relievers weren’t pulled after just an inning. I never remember Baker pulling a reliever after only throwing 3-5 pitches just to get the last out of an inning.
Mike, the Reds badly needed a win. Bell went for it in the first game. I had zero issues with that. That’s what has the Reds with a winning record right now.
Bell has little to do with us having a winning record right now.
Yes, I know Steve. Bell’s responsible for all of the losses and none of the wins. I haven’t forgotten.
Yeah, wkuchad, I don’t blame Bell at all for going for it in the first game.
That is why I said in hindsight. That meant everything else I said was mostly tongue in cheek.
No manager knows for sure how pitchers will perform; he has only history to go by (health, recent performance, how rested, etc.).
Since Bell ran 9 or 10 guys out there in the two games it was so easy for me to look at how they did and pick a guy that would have kept the Giants in check enough for the Reds to win.
Hey, you’re the one who said that Bell goes for the win. Did he last night? The night before? The last week? The last 2 weeks?
I never said anything about wins or losses. Previously, I’ve only talked of Bell’s mistakes. What, you think he’s never made one mistake this season? What, you think he was brought down from God’s right hand? That God sent him down and told Bell, “David, do your work.”
Bell is what he is, a bottom of the barrel manager. That is fact.
To put it a different way, once SF scored 2 to go ahead in the first game it was unlikely the Reds would come back to score 3.
Since Reds hitters scored a bunch of runs in the second game, they needed Sims, or somebody, to hold SF to 2 or 3 fewer runs for a win.
I don’t know how the decision to bring in Sims to resume the suspended game can be questioned. Sims struck out two middle-of-the-order Giants hitters to preserve the tie and produce this team’s biggest moment in two weeks. Because of the way it turned out, it was the best decision possible.
Agree about Sims. He was the right guy, and performed. Elly getting picked off, probably cost us the game; nothing wrong with Sims in that game.
Of course you could also ask the question of why is it that other team’s pitchers can pitch twice in one day, or three consecutive nights, etc.? Or why is it when the Brewers’ ace gets heat exhaustion, he is able to take a breather and continue on, but when the Reds starter (Lively) gets some cramps, he is literally taken out of the game, even when he was ready to go back in. I hate how the Reds baby their players so much, even to the point that it is costing them games in the long run. These are grown men, elite athletes, but are treated like little leaguers.
They are extra cautious with the pitchers because we have so many (eight pitchers) on the IL, and the minor league options are not very good.
A lot of close game and finding new ways to lose. No hitting and now no pitching. Need to drop the catcher for another arm. Very worried about the pen.
You can only have 13 active pitchers now. They will get another arm with weaver hitting the IL today though I imagine. Hopefully Ashcraft and Abbott can have long starts to rest this bullpen. We still don’t have a day off for another 8 days.
I’m wondering the same thing. The Reds are, once again, down to three starters…Ashcraft, Abbott and Williamson. With Lively and Weaver down (at least temporarily if not placed on IL) who is going to start? The team simply has no one who can step in at this point. They could re-call Stoudt, but he is struggling in AAA. Santillan? Law?
The Rays just DFA’d Yonny Chirinos. I’d be on the phone finding out what they need in order to have him here tomorrow.
I thought Lively was expected to make his next start. I’d say Weaver is doubtful (pure speculation from me). We still have what’s his name that started right before the AS break, right?
Lively had dehydration, He’s not down.
Kennedy had a great start filling in before the break. He could be the one to replace Weaver. Even if Weaver is OK, Kennedy should replace him.
When Bell said the xRays of Weaver’s left elbow were negative, he also said they thought he might be ready for his next start on schedule but it was not certain. Coming from Bell, that probably means the next thing we will hear is that Weaver is out for at least a month 😉
Another website reported that Lively “injury” was oblique related. Don’t know who to believe at this point. MLB.com is listing Lively as starter for Friday, ESPN is listing Friday as TBD
A quick google search of “Ben Lively oblique” returns nothing from this season at all.
And for the record, the official Reds game notes given to the media lists Lively as the starter for Friday.
The fact is that this team is at least a year away for many reasons, the injuries to the pitching staff, all the rookies in the starting line up, the need for a new manager, the schedule = the rest of July and if that isn’t bad enough check out the end of August, a ten game west coast trip. Let’s just hope for over .500 and shoot for 24 and 25. Think like this and hope for a something different.
We have a LOT of rookies and mostly young players. We’re going to go through bad streaks. The only thing we’re a year away from is more consistent play. No reason to lose hope for this year.
Wrong! 2.5 games back says you couldn’t be more wrong. Starting pitching is improving, and will improve even more. Hitting will be fine. They did score 10 runs last night. I don’t understand what some Reds fans are afraid of. It’s like we have been losing for so long that we now make excuses for why this team somehow isn’t ready. until a few games ago this team had the 2nd most explosive offense in baseball for a month and a half. Of course they are ready. We tons of talent in the minors that could bring us an outstanding pitcher. That talent is in many cases completely blocked from being on this team; USE SOME OF IT.
I am trying to remind myself of what the goals for the season were coming in. I know I was extremely frustrated last night, especially after game 2, because I thought the “rallying Redlegs” were finally going to win again. But this team playing out of their minds for a few weeks in June doesn’t change who they are. Tons of talent, very bright future, but they aren’t all the way there yet. Clearly. This season was about finding out what the Reds have, and that’s what is happening.
With that said, if they can break this losing streak, and even just win occasionally for the next few weeks, there could be hope for this season. The schedule during the stretch run in August and September is significantly easier than it is right now, and getting Greene and Lodolo back would obviously be huge. It’s probably just a matter of how far back they fall during this period of struggle. Can they stay within 4-5 games of a playoff spot, or are the wheels going to completely fall off? I guess time will tell.
Either way, I am going to work on my perspective and just enjoying a ballgame every night, because come winter time l know I will be desperately missing it.
This is why trades aren’t made until august 1st. All GM’s want to see what they have when the 2nd half starts up.
I hope we add 2 bullpen arms that aren’t rentals – tigers and white sox have some good ones. Starting pitching will be expensive and other than weaver the starters are coming together. Krall needs to let the market come to us. When the deadline is almost over someone with a starting pitcher might lower their asking price and that’s when we pounce. Other than that, trust the process and get a couple relievers.
I just don’t know, myself. I’m at a crossroads. I mean, this team was expected to do nothing, and look where we are. You have to be happy with that. With some pitching help, we could really make a run.
But, right now, our team is on a downward phase, yes. Our entire pitching staff is being torn apart. Where, we may need the pitching help just get be able to get through to the end of the season with any sense of normalcy right now.
So, do we stick to the plan, don’t worry about this year, and just fill in with minor league pitchers where we need to?
Or, do we bring some major league pitching in, costing us some prospects, just to be able to finish the season with a sense of normalcy?
Or, do we bring in some major league pitching to “make a run at a title”?
In closing, I will say 2 things. During the off season, I would like to see us review and modify every single detail we do with the pitchers when they get up here. I mean, this is ridiculous, to have this many injured and taxed pitchers. I mean, just the starting rotation, we have to be on our 12, 13, and 14 guys by now. We won’t even talk about the relievers and how taxed they are.
I mean everything. Is it just the players? Just coincidences? Or, is it coaching? Their training plans? Their conditioning plans? I mean, with Lodolo, from what I remember, it was all because of a hole in the mound that pitchers will use to help land their foot solidly. Seriously? Just a little depression in the mound is keeping Lodolo out this long?
Second, and I hope I’m wrong when I say, I just don’t see the Reds winning another pennant of any kind with Bell as manager. Nothing about the guy impresses me. Not one bit.
“Nothing about the guy impresses me. Not one bit.”
Yeah, yeah, we know. Please, give it a rest.
I had to tap out after that monster CES blast. What a sight to behold. I hope the fan who ended up with the ball made a deal to get it back to CES. I’d like to think that’s exactly what I would do in the same situation.
Sadly, I kind of expected the end result when I looked this morning. On the bright side, we did find Jobu and scored. But our bullpen had such heavy use the past couple of days and the Giants are such a well-managed club … insert heavy sigh here.
Hope that’s the last Golden Sombrero we see from EDLC for a while. Yes, he’s a rookie and still learning, but it’s getting old very quickly.
Where did this velo spike come from for Weaver and can it be maintained? It’s unfortunate that he was hit but…..if this is NOT an anomaly then Weaver might have some upside yet this season.
https://www.fangraphs.com/players/luke-weaver/16918/graphs?pitchgraphs=true&statArr=&legend=1&split=base&time=daily&start=2021&end=2023&rtype=mult>1=15&dStatArray=FA&ymin=&ymax=
I hope we do not do anything stupid. Our SP staff is in the MASH unit. If we can hang in there until they start returning, great. If not, we honestly are still a year away.
Reds went with what they had to start the season and I expect they will do the same thing the rest of the way.Lots of things to like and a few things that they could do much better for sure. Reds have one more obstacle to clear and thats Joey’s last ride and once that is over in a few months we move forward with maybe the best everyday lineup in baseball.CES and his awesome power at 23 years old makes this lineup long and I mean long.Future is bright if Bob shores up the pitching with a vet or two to start,2 or 3 new guys in the pen and a power bat.Have to think money will be there and we know the prospects are there.GO REDS
All the pieces are in place for a dynasty. Doesn’t mean it’s going to happen and more than likely will not. To those who follow the minor-league clubs on a day-to-day basis, they know what is behind this crew, and it is also very exciting. Just enjoy the ride now guys. Because you haven’t seen anything yet.
One of the potential roadblocks to having a dynasty is the manager. David Bell is a good man, works very hard and he has many good attributes, but is he the right man for the job ultimately? Unfortunately, I believe we are stuck with him – must keep our fingers crossed that he is up to the challenge.
If that is the case this team will never reach it’ full potential. Bell is the worst manager in the game, 30 out of 30, how sad.
“All the pieces are in place for a dynasty.” That’s very true. There is still plenty of juice in AAA, and AA with players like Marte, Dunn, and Phillips headlining those 2 levels, but A ball and Rookie ball are full of talent too. This organization is in excellent shape.
In the end, Nick Krall deserves to choose his own man. Hopefully all roads lead to this. There are few vestiges of the old regime, but this is certainly the primary one.
‘All the pieces are in place for a dynasty”
I’d like to see a veteran presence, also. Someone who can, when needed, call a closed-door, player-only meeting, to call people out for plays that need to be made, etc. Most of the time, that comes from a player. It could come from a manager. Right now, I don’t believe there is anyone on this team who would step up for that.
I referred to the scene last night in Major League, where Taylor went to Dorn’s house to call him out about tanking a play.
@steve-in the short term I’d like to see Chuckie Robinson called up and the two current backup catchers removed from the roster. Let’s see what CR can bring to the table…. We are running the table with these call ups I’d like to see how far we can take it.
@Pete>> I agree pretty much right down the line. Bell was brought in when the plan was to spend money on established guys to supplement a settled core. Then lots of stuff happened (including COVID) and that opportunity went a glimmering (whether or not many felt it was abandoned prematurely).
If Krall wants a different presence in the dugout moving forward, he should make the change to someone he is more comfortable with.
Dave Bristol had a .529 winning record as Reds manager from 1966-69; but, Bob Howsam wanted his own crew in the dugout and brought in some unknown young firebrand named Sparky Anderson. Krall should be so fortunate.
For Pete
We have plenty of young kids up here.
If we were going to call up anymore, let’s just call up the entire Louisville Bats roster.
Then, let’s see how many players from outside the organization would want to try to earn a spot and sign with the Reds, or if they will stay away because they could simply be replaced by the next minor leaguer.
I mean, that’s what I would be thinking if I was Newman. I would be thinking, “What is my purpose here right now? Why did I even sign with this team if I’m not even going to get any playing time?”
But, yes, Krall should have his own guy out there. And, given the state of the organization right now, we should be able to get a much better selection of managerial candidates for the job.
CES is my new favorite rookie playing along with my 6 other favorite rookies. This losing streak has been to watch, but it finally forced Krall’s hand into bringing up CES. I think we’re due for some entertaining games.
I’m with you MBS…I like ALL of our rookies. Each has done some magical things on the field so far, and each of them will hit bumps in the road. With experience, we at least have hope that they will develop and achieve their potential and beyond.
I haven’t decided yet. Why? I don’t just look at the highlight reels. I look at what they do between the highlight reels. I like to see fundamentally sound baseball each day.
For example, I don’t care about a HR one night if you go “0 for” the next 3 nights. I’d rather see 4 singles, one each night. Still 4 total bases, but people look only at the HR, not the 4 singles in 4 games.
I don’t care about the 100 mph throw across the diamond if you and the 2nd baseman bobble a simple toss. But, people remember the 100 mph throw, not the bobble.
In each case, most people just look and remember the former. I look at both.
And, that’s what’s been beating us recently. Fundamentally sound baseball.
@Steve, I agree, but like you say they’re rookies. They all to need to tighten up many things in their games.
I don’t think EDLC is a SS, but I do think he’s a great 3B. He gets to more balls than any 3B we’ve had in recent memory, and he has not only a cannon, but a very accurate arm to finish off those plays.
I have only 1 complaint about McLain, and that’s his vertical range at SS will be limited, but he’s very smooth at SS. BTW the vertical range is a small price to pay for the quality work he does at short.
I have enjoyed reading through the comments on these threads for quite some time now, but I am finding myself annoyed and wanting to skip over every time I see your name. I find your posts to be very arrogant, nauseating, and long-winded. They are always full of “Most people think _____, but I know _____, therefore I am so much smarter than most people.” You constantly generalize everyone else to be simpletons, and your opinion to be so profound. I agree with some of what you share, but you could really use some humility in sharing your opinion my friend.
For DW
“therefore I am so much smarter than most people.”
I’ve never ever said one word like this or similar to it.
Your problem, my friend.
Steve you’ve said many words similar to it
Overall they’ll be out of it soon enough, but the future is bright. I think Greene going back on the IL sealed their fate. The pen has just been taxed way too much. The problem is a couple of guys (Weaver and whoever) only go 4 innings every turn thru the rotation so that leaves 10 innings for the pen and Bell has no swing man/long man so thats 8-9 appearances and everything snowballs from there.
2024 starters: Ashcraft, HG, Abbott, Lodolo, and Acquisition with Lowder added by next June hopefully
swing men/long men: Williamson and Lively
middle relievers: Cruz, Gibaut, Young
setup: Sims, Acquisition
closer: Diaz
Bell needs a solid starter and a co-closer thats a serious upgrade to Sims. Trade India and/or pickup a righty OF bat superior to Senzel/Fairchild, but the offense is already vastly superior to the rest of the division.
No reason this team couldn’t make the playoffs for the next 4 years and win the division 3-4 times
Solid, above average starter is our number one need this offseason. Honestly, whatever it takes, this is the bare minimum that Krall must make happen. Agree, I would love a setup man to join Sims.
Those SP look good, but the “big” three have now been on the IL two straight years for significant time. The first attribute of greatness is availability. The Reds seem to have a lot of P injuries. I wonder if it has anything to do with the Director of Pitching’s philosophy.
At least they have answered question buyers or sellers.
And which are they?
I am hopeful for it means to the future that Bell sent CES up to bat for Fraley knowing full well the Giants had a RH pitcher ready to bring in at the 1st sight of CES (or Senzel or Stephenson) in that situation.
The rote choice would have been Senzel, the slightly better choice Stephenson; but, for once Bell chose to reach for the brass ring and was handsomely rewarded.
The rookies are the core of this team now; and, just maybe Bell has figured that out.
It is also heartening to see these young guys gravitating to JoeyV in the dugout for discussion and advice and to see Joey interacting with them. Apparently, all it took to make Joey a leader was to surround him with legitimate young talent eager to learn. Who would have thunk it???
Yeah. I see EDLC and others around him picking his brain in the dugout all the time. Looks like he’s very happy to help them. I think it’s safe to say Joey Votto fits in. 🙂
And if he hasn’t, you just box him in. Reds just have a couple of weak spots left in position players on the roster. The pieces may already be available to fill those slots. Basically Bell proof the team.
CES isn’t getting called up because he’s got to clean some things up.
Hmmm? The Reds have had losing seasons in 17 of 20 years because the guys on the roster have to clean some things up. Why did Abbott make 7 starts at AAA? Our rotation stunk and we were near the bottom in HRs. Abbott should have made atleast 4 more starts for the Reds by now and CES should’ve been here from the beginning. Especially with all the time Votto missed.
Its not just Bell either? He can’t play guys they don’t call up. Here’s a thought…if Lowder is one of the best 5 starters in spring training next year then bring him up
One of my questions for some time has been whether Bell and Krall are as thick as thieves on the roster composition/ player usage; or, whether we at times see a passive-aggressive drama playing out between them with roster composition as the centerpiece.
The Mike Leake precedent.
Jim, I’m also curious how much say Bell has on roster construction. Just my guess, Bell is responsible for the relief pitcher call ups (whenever he feels he needs a fresh arm), but Krall controls the starting pitching and position players. But who knows?
@WKChad> This last weekend, just as they had done on the weekend ahead of July 4, they sat Fairchild out at AAA on Saturday; and, I figured we were going to see an IL move overnight to get him up for the last game of the Milwaukee series just as we had seen that July 4 weekend vs Padres. But then he wasn’t called up; and instead. CES was held out on Sunday and called up on Monday.
Why would they have one guy apparently on call to come on up Sunday and then go a different direction on Sunday? Probably lots of reasons but jostling and “discussions” within the ranks seemed like a real possibility to me.
No problem if you want to say Bell did the right thing by having CES pinch hit but for me I couldn’t figure out why he wasn’t in the lineup at DH to start with.Until Newman and Casali are gone and Joey hits only against righties Bell is just still Bell.CES is IMO the DH every game and when Joey sets he can slide to first.Has to be that way.This dude can single to right and hit one 9 miles to left and he has to play. He is more then a power guy he can hit.
I agree about CES every day until he proves otherwise. I’m guessing it may be a wakeup call for all those platoon hitters from both sides to witness CES step up and bury one vs a RH pitcher.
Who goes first Dave Bell or Luke Weaver. I prefer both!!!! You have to get 1 or 2 starting pitchers and improve the bullpen. When I look at the Brewers and Giants I see two teams with obvious weaknesses. We have better talent than both of these teams but we continue to lose to both teams. Why is that? The major issue, is that Bell continues to misuse the bullpen. The bullpen is completely spent at this point. I have said since Spring Training that Nick Kroll has done a great job in setting up this team to succeed, but Bell is a pathetic manager.
Who’s the long man though? What choice does he have? Everybody comes in and starts walking guys and loses it after 20 pitches. Occasionally Sims or whoever might get thru an inning on 7 pitches and Bell doesn’t bring them back. Why is that? Because he’ll need them tomorrow. The starters don’t last and its a nasty trickle down
I still don’t see any evidence that the Reds or any other team have a “long man” on their pitching rosters. I think that ship sailed long ago.
“Occasionally Sims or whoever might get thru an inning on 7 pitches and Bell doesn’t bring them back. Why is that? Because he’ll need them tomorrow.”
Bell has no idea if he will need him tomorrow. If he will need him tomorrow, why even bring him in today and risk losing him for tomorrow?
Bottom line, Bell simply doesn’t understand how to use a bullpen. He is what he is, a bottom of the barrel manager.
Mark, I was thinking that a week or two ago. I would still like to see teams carry one myself. You can still get him an inning here and there to keep him fresh, what I believe many teams weren’t doing.
Mark Moore 07/19/2023
I still don’t see any evidence that the Reds or any other team have a “long man” on their pitching rosters. I think that ship sailed long ago.
Manaea last night for instance. A spot starter that isn’t going to be fazed by 35 pitches or whatever. The Reds don’t have that. Young was never a starter or Duarte or anyone else
‘We have better talent than both of these teams but we continue to lose to both teams. Why is that”
Talent rarely beats fundamentally sound, well-coached, veteran leadership baseball.
Talent can make the 100 mph throw across the diamond. Fundamentally sound baseball can make and handle a soft toss from SS to 2nd.
Talent will still make mistakes that will cost them games. With fundamentally sound, well coached, veteran leadership baseball, they won’t make those mistakes. You have to beat them.
OMG, so one play sums up the whole season. They are rookies and rookies make errors, so do vets by the way. How did we ever win 50 games in the first half if this team wasn’t fundamentally sound or well coached. Come on.
OMG so you are going to project just 50 games onto an entire 162 game season?
You obviously don’t understand how the Patriots lost two Super Bowls even though they had the more talented team. Or, how the Miami Heat, with 4 undrafted FA’s getting significant playing time, beat the Celtics, the more talented team this year.
Get off your totem pole and learn something, Sunshine.
So you’re moving on from being clueless and opinionated to being arrogant, insulting and opinionated.
While remaining clueless.
More annoying with every passing game.
“I don’t mind lame posts. I don’t mind clueless, annoying posts.
But I do expect the fundamentals of actually thinking and using their head before writing a post.”
I trust EDLC can learn SS and learn to lay off down and away sliders.
I don’t trust you can learn to make a credible post.
And this WHOOLLLE comment just proves the above point
“YOU obviously don’t understand”
“[You] learn something”
You reek of arrogance
It astounds me that many here seem eager to punt in 2023. How long do you think these rookies are going to be around? Some act like this team will be together for a decade or more.
As soon as the Rookies hit arbitration the Reds will start selling them off. Do you really think Bob Castellini is going to sign Elly De La Cruz for a half a billion dollars? Because that is how much he will demand if he is only half as good as we think he is.
The Reds have at most four years to win with this team. It’s astounding so many here want to waste 2023 on “sorting” (whatever that even means)
I agree with your first paragraph. But the Reds have never traded away players once they hit arbitration (minus last year’s experience of “trade anything with even slight value”).
We do have a window, but I think it’s closer to six years. But could be more with extensions.
Either way, I’m also not ready to give up on 2023. We have young players, and they will have ups and downs. No need to overreact to either.
Maybe it’s not a choice but in necessity?
I can search high and low, but for the life of me, I cannot figure out a way that this team can honestly compete for a World Series Championship in 2023. So if this is indeed the reality, what is the better course of action, to hold the line and continue the sorting as you refer to it, or start trading some of the young talent off for pieces we may not even need in another year?
Pete, prior to this cold spell, the only team in baseball that had better offense than the Reds was the Braves. If we pulled in one top starter to go with the return of our own top starters, and then added maybe one more top bullpen piece to go with maybe our own in Antone coming back, I’m not sure where I see any holes that makes this a team that can’t battle for a championship this year. I would be doing what I could to get Giolito here and then sign him long term. This team has the money and the prospects. These prospects are mostly blocked. USE THEM.
Chris, I believe there will be times this season, and there have been times of season, when the Reds are possibly the best team in all of major league baseball. The problem comes in with consistency because of all the young players on the field. In my view, it’s just too much to overcome to win a world championship. Can they win the division or get a wildcard spot? Absolutely no question about it. But I don’t think they really need to make any major changes to do so and I would be very cautious of trading off any of the higher end prospects to even attempt it. In the end, I do trust Nick Krall to do the right thing. I guess that’s my bottom line.
Right before the All-Star break I posted here that I thought the Reds were in for difficult stretch, and it certainly has been one. I will say today that now we could be in for a very good stretch of baseball. Looks like the boys have figured out they can’t play this game and let’s see what happens. Very excited about today’s game and tomorrow’s as well.
“Can” play this game… In other words expect the pre-Brewers team to show up today and hopefully at least the short term future. Such is the life with playing a bunch of rookies: they’ll win your heart then break it without notice.
This team was never in the hunt for a WS this year. Too many people look at just talent and not the team. Where’s the veteran leadership, the player accountability, the coaching, etc.? Where’s the fundamentally sound baseball?
These are why the Brewers and Giants beat us. We obviously have more talent, but they have the better team.
The Patriots did lose a couple of Super Bowls. Because the other teams simply played better football. The Celtics were obviously the more talented team than the Miami Heat were (the Heat has 4 undrafted players on their team who got significant playing time). But, the Heat still beat them. Why? Simply because the Heat played better basketball.
Who’s going to call a closed-door, players-only meeting if needed?
Who’s going to hold players accountable?
Who’s going to show the young kids how to come in each day, day in, day out, to work on making the adjustments necessary, and work on being a fundamentally sound major leaguer, part of a fundamentally sound team?
Now with the decimation of most the pitching staff, nope, we are nowhere near a WS this year. Just to have a shot at it, we would have to trade away our top 10 prospects if not some of the current roster just to get a pitching staff good enough for it.
Playoffs can still be a reality. But, the pitching staff is still going to be difficult to build up. People can talk all you want about pitchers coming back. But, there’s no guarantee they are going to be “lights out” when they do come back.
Nope, I would simply like to see these players become a better team. I don’t care about talent and highlight reels. Give me a SS and 2nd baseman who can make a simple handoff, and OF who can hit the cutoff man, a manager who isn’t going to keep a batter in the same position in the batting order for over 2 months slumping.
I feel like that because reality is setting in, you are not going to win a division with 4 or 5 rookie starters in your everyday line up, your top two preseason starters out, 2 or 3 rookies in your rotation, a spent bull pen and the worst manager in base ball, sorry that just how I see it. Regardless i will continue to watch every game, be happy when the win and upset when they lose. However it’s not that I’ve totally given up but as I said the reality is it could be a long 2nd half, but we will see.
Agreed.
I’m with you. Ahead of the 12 game winning streak, the Reds won 5 straight then lost 5 straight then went won 3 then lost 2 then started the 12 game run.
If the Reds can tread water to the end of the month, the next 13 games are then with the Cubs (4A), Nats (3H), Marlins (3H) and Pirates (3A). That’s a chance to recoup.
I suspect a lot of the bandwagon and frontrunner folks showing up here over the last month are influenced by following the rise of the local football team where it seems like the world ends with every setback.
Agreed.
Absolutely. I said it before. So many in here are so used to losing that they don’t want to win, and make excuses as to why we can’t win. It boggles the mind. Next year we could see two or three of theses rookies hurt and then what, wait until 2025? This team is so unbelievably talented THIS YEAR. It’s just pure stupidity not to go for it all, and you can do that without dumping your minors. We can surely afford to deal a few of them though, because they have NO where to go on this team.
They went for it all with Castellanos, pitcher banished to Japan, Shogo, Moose, Sonny, and Miley. It didn’t go well.
@Indy, so stop trying?
IRM>>> It didn’t go well because they dumped Raisel Iglesias and Archie Bradley to save money in the off season between 2020-21. Certainly with both those guys and possibly even one of them in the pen, the 2021 team finds its way into the playoffs.
It might have been a short window but it was there to take just like this year.
Indy, the Reds going for it back then is completely different than this current version of the Reds, and the “going for it” factor would also be completely different. We have an extremely young team that doesn’t need to be rebuilt at all. We also have ton of top prospects at EVERY LEVEL of our minor leagues that will NEVER be able to play on this current team, so you use them to upgrade the absolute needs on this team. I don’t know that this team needs another offensive player added to it. Basically you add ONE top starter and one or two bullpen guys and you have an unbelievable team right now. What’s not to go for?
@V4L:
Im not punting on this year. I think they need some roster upgrades across the board which many of us have noted for weeks if not months. Some internal, some external.
1.) It was obvious 6 weeks ago Luke Weaver was not a credible SP option and need an upgrade there. A FA 2 month rental should fix that. Im not trading for a Lucas giolito type unless the price is not a top15 prospect. It will be though ……so Im getting a lower tier SP rental.,
2.) Kevin Newman hasn’t had a meaningful role for a month since McLain and Elly came up and Steer,Votto, and India have been healthy. Calling up CES was overdue to strengthen the roster with a power righty bat and thats a boon to the offense.
3.) the 3 headed catcher has long been unneeded. Adding Stuart Fairchild in place of Casali strengthens the 26 man roster by adding speed , good OF defense and another righty bat.
4.) Bullpen help- This is the area I would aggressively target now and perhaps not only a 2 month rental but a good arm or 2 that can help in 2024 as well. We are headed to the dog days of August when relievers hit that “dead arm” period. Sims and Diaz give you closer type elite stuff. Alex young has been solid all year. Gibault mostly as well. Im not buying stock in Derek Law or Buck Farmer or Duarte or Santillan. This is where Krall and his pro scouting team could identify a controlled good lefty and another righty arm and part with some modesty prospects to strengthen the bullpen now and next year.
The future core would remain intact. SP would have a vet arm, offense and defense and speed better and bullpen fortified.
Do you think Newman might just fade away like Myers did? I could see that happening because even if they activated him ASAP it would only be a week until the deadline. However, because of the All Star break, it will have been 2+ weeks since he played at MLB.
We should probably keep an eye on whether they send him out on rehab over the weekend.
Totally agree on all points with one exception. I am not settling for a run of the mill starter. We need more than that if we have the playoffs in our sights. We do not have a solid experienced Game 1 pitcher like Castillo on this staff. We have solid 3s at best. Think we need somebody better than what we have. Think Giolito or Scherzer would meet the need. I am not worried about giving up a top 15 and top 30 to acquire such. We can work out the specifics of the who’s with the seller. Gosh, we certainly AJ afford it. I think it is a greater disservice to the team and fans not to take a swing at getting better. Believe me, our competition of Phillies, Brewers, Giants, and Marlins are going to be swinging with a lot less quantity in trade chips than we have. We definitely can afford it and don’t need all these top 15-20 prospects with such an opportunity in front of us. At mid season we were the top team in the Division with an injured and weak rotation. As I said, I am totally onboard with your other views. Yes, I would trade Hopkins and Richardson for Scherzer.
For Jim
Newman will fade away if he never gets any playing time. I mean, if I was Newman, I would be wondering, “What am I even doing here right now? What is my role?”
@Jim. Krall pulled some magic last year, getting the Red Sox to take Pham’s contract and getting some good prospects for Naquin and getting a promising reliever for Kyle Farmer and his $6 mil contract. I suspect with all the infield injuries around, someone could use a 26th man utility guy like Newman and Krall only needs a low A lottery ticket in return. Hes a reasonable backup SS and gives a team depth. The emergence of the rockstar rookie tandem of Elly and Little Mac, the steadiness and versatility of Steer at 3b/1b/DH and the massive righty power of CES at corner IF and DH has eliminated his role on this team at this time. He certainly helped the Reds arrive to this new vista as we climb the mountain out of this rebuild and he should be appreciated for his contributions and also he seems to be a really good teammate as well. I doubt we see him back on the 26 man barring an injury.
First, I don’t think many are ready to “punt” on this season. There are options between “punting” and “going all-in.”
That said, you’re right the team won’t be together for 10 years, but it’s not because the Reds ownership won’t try to keep them together. Some of the worst moves Castellini has made involved blocking/slow-rolling trades for “fan favorites.”
It’s likely that some of this wonderful group of young position players will regress, lose speed, get injured, etc. That’s why protecting the farm (and the future) is just as important as winning today. I’m not saying that I can tell you exactly where to place the fulcrum, but over the last two decades, the Reds have sadly erred towards playing for the present at the expense of the future.
I would argue you can sacrifice right now for a future that may never come.
The only guarantee is the Reds have a chance to win a weak division right now. That opportunity may not exist next year. It does however exist now.
V4L, you are assuming that by being aggressive at the trade deadline the Reds can obtain certainty in 2023. Players acquired at the deadline often get injured or simply regress. There’s also certainly that any prospects we part with will NOT help in the future. There’s risk in both courses of action.
You prefer to accept risk in the future.
I want the Reds to compete every year and I believe that requires a strong farm system.
@VFL – “As soon as the Rookies hit arbitration the Reds will start selling them off. ”
Which of these arb guys have they let go because of cost? And what have the arb guys done since being let go? Cy youngs? MVP’s? all stars?
Well, I said before the season started that it looked like to me that the Reds were looking at making the Tampa Rays 2.0.
So, that would mean, I believe, that once the Reds can’t afford a player, they are gone. And, that could happen this year, next year, etc. Most likely, the player will not be offered an extension, traded before that. I could even see the player being traded in the later years of arbitration. Again, if the Reds are looking to build Tamps 2.0
@Steve
If the Reds are building Tampa 2.0, they will be extending many of their young core to long term contracts, buying out a handful of free agent years. THAT is what Tampa has done and does and THAT will preserve the core for many years to come.
The Reds started that with Greene and I fully expect that to happen for several more of these young guys this offseason and next.
“If the Reds are building Tampa 2.0, they will be extending many of their young core to long term contracts, ”
You do understand that Tampa regularly has one of if not the lowest payroll in the league. Which means they rarely give any star players extensions. Which is why they trade them off early, get the prospects, and, thus, simply replace who they lost with the next one up.
Wrong. You’re not well versed on Tampa’s strategy at all. They signed their young core players LONG TERM first, buying out free agent years and the player’s peak years, then they traded them just before or during their 30s. But the key is long term contracts and buying out a couple years of free agency. THAT is the Rays prescription, NOT waiting for them to become expensive in the latter years of arbitration and flipping them for prospects as you suggest.
Franco (11-year $182M), Springs, Lowe, Longoria, Kiermaier, Snell, Archer, Shields, Alvarez, Vaughn, Crawford, Zobrist, Kazmir, Moore
VARedsfan – you make it far too easy…the Reds traded Luis Castillo during his Arbitration years and he made the all star team, this season for Seattle.
Steve you are correct if the Reds are following the Tampa approach, the rookies will be moved in 2026 or in 2027 at the latest.
Just kind of thinking out loud. Without thinking about any other athletes on the field, don’t EDLC’s attributes play best in center field? Huge arm, great speed, and with his height he might bring a few wall scrapers back. Not sure about his overall baseball instincts, but I have to assume they play pretty good. Of course there’s no reason to move him now. Just wondering if the front office is thinking about it. His speed would be used much better covering more ground.
Or you can keep him at 3rd and have an outstanding left side of the infield. His so-called attributes are meaningless when you consider he’s never played the outfield.
Long term thinking. A big arm in the OF matters and especially in Gabp. Medium flyball in SF and Votto is scoring from 3rd, but Elly would have a shot on alot of guys unless it goes to the track. RF not so much running and wear/tear as CF plus Freidl is really really good in CF
I was on the Elly to CF train a year ago. After watching him at 3b, I no longer am. He is a gifted infielder, athlete, and cannon of an arm. He makes plays on the move and plays behind third base and throws from foul ground. I think he is a GG third baseman once he gets a full season under his belt at the “hot corner”. See what happens with India at 2b and Marte in the minors so he could still play SS long term,but for now I like him at 3b and McLain at SS.
Agree with OS….
I thought he would be a great CF’er. But if the Reds had, he would have transitioned last year to get some training under his built. The eye test so far is that he looks great at 3rd, but his fielding at SS is not quite as good as MMC.
With this team’s ability at making OFers out of IFers, I wouldn’t want them to do that for Elly:
– it didn’t work for Alonso
– Senzel wasn’t bad in CF, but he kept on running into the walls getting injured, making him useless to us.
– Similar goes for Hamilton
Nope. Keep Elly in the IF. I have no problem him taking some flies in the OF at time during practice. If we need an emergency OF, alright. But, any kind of regular playing time out there, nope.
If we had someone who could teach him how to play it, where he wouldn’t get injured like Senzel and Hamilton did all the time, I would be for it. Because we simply have too many 2nd/SS/3rd players in the system with what we already have up here.
I was in the offseason about our OF, but with Friedl’s improvement, and trading for Benson, it now seems like a strength.
I don’t like the idea of turning infielders into OF’s. We have 3 good ones now, and some AAAA to 4th OF types in Louisville. Dunn is killing AA, so he maybe an option in 24. Doug has a nice article on him on RML right now. His batting #’s are great, he seems to be able to swipe basses at random, and he can stick at CF. His ability to stay healthy is the only questionable thing in his game.
We do have an abundance of INF talent, and should look to move the pieces that don’t fit long term to address other areas of need. I would trade from our strength to acquire more pitching, and catching. I would look to do that right away, but that might need to happen in the offseason if we can’t find the right deals at the deadline.
“ I was in the offseason”, should have been, I was “worried” in the offseason. I never see my mistakes until after I hit reply.
I’ve been a strong proponent of EDLC playing CF as his best position and the best way to use all of his talents to help the team. I still think that would be true. However watching him play 3B so well, I’d rather him just stay there. He can win a gold glove either way. I believe 3B will give him the best chance of having a long healthy career. That’s the main reason I want him to just stay there. I know he CAN play anywhere and play it well.
Everything you described about EDLC is important at shortstop, too, which is why teams tend to put their best defender at SS. BTW, Benson, Friedl, and Fraley are not a bad defensive outfield either. While Fairchild is at AAA, he is an ideal fourth outfielder long term–league average hitter without strong splits, good arm, good fielder, and plus speed.
I disagree about Benson being a good outfielder. He misjudged fly balls almost every game. He dives for balls when he has zero chance of catching it. He often has a deer in the headlights look when the ball is hit his way. I love Benson as a hitter, but think he is best suited as a DH.
I think all three outfielders make poor decisions when it comes to throwing the ball. Friedle cost the Reds the game on Sunday by not hitting the cut off man. Fraley did the exact same thing a few minutes later.
The infield defense is pretty darn good, but the outfield defense needs a lot of work.
For MBS
Agreed.
BK I agree with you with pretty much everything you said except for speed. I would think his quick twitch reactions would be used the most at shortstop, where his world class baseball speed would benefit his pitchers more. The ground he would be able to cover in the outfield would be easily more than at shortstop. McClain seems to play a very good shortstop, plus there are many short stops in our pipeline. Of course he hasn’t played in the outfield. If Nick Senzel could play center field, ELDC could dominate.
I would think quick twitch reactions are definitely more needed at 3rd than SS. It’s not called the “Hot Corner” for nothing.
With this team’s ability at making OFers out of IFers, I wouldn’t want them to do that for Elly:
– it didn’t work for Alonso
– Senzel wasn’t bad in CF, but he kept on running into the walls getting injured, making him useless to us.
– Similar goes for Hamilton
Nope. Keep Elly in the IF. I have no problem him taking some flies in the OF at time during practice. If we need an emergency OF, alright. But, any kind of regular playing time out there, nope.
Ok Steve I’ll ask it this way. If you knew all of Elly’s physical attributes what position do you think he would be best suited to play? And I’ll open it up to anyone who would like opine.
That can depend upon which positions is he use to He’s use to INF; keep him there.
Now, if he’s never played the game before, EVER, then sure, I would look at CF and SS. But, the first thing I would teach him about CF is playing the wall. The 2nd thing is watching out for your teammate when running for a ball into the power alleys. For, just catching the ball is the easy part out there.
But, Elly has played this game before. For several years I believe. So, even if I believe Elly would make a better CF, I’m playing him at the positions he’s use to. Managers and coaches put players in positions to succeed, not to experiment with. You do that back in Rookie Ball, the Instructional camp out in Arizona, not in the major leagues.
I really like having McLain at shortstop and Elly at third base. It gives you two great arms on that side of the infield.
TJ, I’m with Steve on this one. Elly isn’t an outfielder so why put him there when it really isn’t a necessity. Also, Centerfielders are accidents waiting to happen between collisions with the wall and/or other players. I personally don’t like Elly at SS either because I think his mechanics aren’t all that great, and he relies on his pure physical skills/quickness, which works great at 3rd base. We have plenty of other kids that are moving through the system that could learn the outfield, but Elly is already here.
Agree. Elly isn’t the guy. I do however think we can and should improve our outfield defense. Nice speed but average defenders at best. A few noodle arms also. The kid the Cardinals are dangling (Carlson) is a switch hitting gold glover and probably an upgrade over all 3 current OFs. We don’t know yet where CES will settle in and seemingly could match the D of Schwarber or Castellanos. I would be OK with that.
Speedy middle infielders cover more ground in the outfield and foul territory. They make a lot more throws, too garnering more value from their arms.
Lineup posted. India resting. IF left to right is Steer, EDLC, MattyMc, CES. Employee #19 is the DH and TySteve is catching.
Hoping we can get Stripling early and often and that Ashcraft continues to show what impressed us early in the season.
Mid-range forecast for a game tomorrow looks iffy unless they push it out. But you never know. Nothing in our forecast today, but the 1.5 inches that fell in under 30 minutes wasn’t a mirage.
Loving this lineup. Everyone but Stephenson has OPS of .786 or higher. Ready to start a new streak tonight.
i wish Bell would have challenged the last play. it looked like the first basemen stepped off the bag before he caught the ball. overall an exhausting homestand so far for our reds.( and the fans)
again epitomizes 21st century reds- Dominated by the Giants and Brewers. Mainly anemic offense. IN the game the offense comes to life you get an injury then the bullpen lets us down. oh so familiar story
Are you referring to the Weaver injury? Not certain how that was a setback for the team. He needs to go.
India gets a much needed day off, CES the start at 1B. Time to reverse this streak and start a good one.
1 De La Cruz SS
2 Friedl CF
3 McLain 2B
4 Fraley RF
5 Steer 3B
6 Votto DH
7 Encarnacion-Strand 1B
8 Stephenson C
9 Benson LF
Yes, it’s India’s turn off today. Since CES came up: Game 1 off Steer, Game 2 off CES, Game 3 off India. It will be interesting to see how the off days goes over the next 2 weeks.
Mclain will be off tomorrow and Friday is a lefty so Benson and Friedl sit. Stephenson will also sit tomorrow and perhaps Votto with the early start. Next 2 days with the business day special and Lefty starter Friday will be massive mix and match days.
I like this lineup. Steer finally moves ahead of Votto. Wouldn’t mind seeing Benson move up, but he’s kind of useful as a 2nd leadoff hitter, so not a huge deal.
I don’t much care for the platoon system that Bell uses but I do understand its based on the numbers. I also realize that with CES now here it will be tougher to juggle the playing time but make no mistake CES has to DH every day and when Joey sets he can man first.CES is not a platoon guy nor is he just an all or nothing home run hitter he is a hitter with awesome power.He is the one missing link to this lineup and soon he will right there in the clean up spot.Now I know if he does play every day then somebody else loses some time but what he brings to the plate nobody brings.At GABP his pop ups in August may go out.
For those interested in such things positionally- Matt McLain has taken over the team lead in fWAR @2.2 in 56 games.
Friedl is next at 2.1 with Fraley and Steer next.
Reds using Fraley perfectly-exclusively against righties and now accumulating 279 PA and fWAR 1.6 and leads team in the counting numbers of RBI and second in HR and SB
McLain on pace to be runaway positional MVP of team( Diaz has something to say on the pitching side) and while Corbin Carroll is ROY and mvp candidate…, its reasonable to ask who was last best Reds rookie having a better season than McLain if his pace stays over next 70 games. Hes got a shot at 5 WAR.
India 2021 fWAR 3.0
Votto 2008 fWAR 3.6
Bench 1968 fWAR 4.5
What is impressive about McLain is his defense. We thought he would perform offensively, but I don’t think anyone predicted he would be this good defensively at both ss and 2b, way above league average. Elly is good too. It’s a treat to watch both McLain and EDLC play in the diamond. Excited to be able to watch this for the next 6 years +.
Cardinals winning again today, Marlins tanking, like Reds. Red fans need to really root for the Cubs starting tomorrow night to slow down St. Louis.
Just for discussion I feel the Cubs and Cards will make a push with the Cubs making the bigger one.Nobody in this division will run away and hide.All the teams are flawed but the Cubs then the Brewers have the best pitching especially starting pitching.
Lots of “favorite rookies” to choose from. 🙂 CES fits right in.
In response to MBS.
Pete – “In the end, Nick Krall deserves to choose his own man.”
I like that.
When I click on the reply button from my email it’s not taking me to the comment I’m replying to. Anyone else having this problem? Just started today.