The winning streak came to an end at 12 games for the Cincinnati Reds. Atlanta grabbed another early lead on Saturday afternoon and the Reds rally fell just short of completing yet another comeback as the Braves held on 7-6.

Final R H E
Atlanta Braves (49-27)
7 14 1
Cincinnati Reds (41-36)
6 10 1
W: Tonkin (4-2) L: Ashcraft (3-6) SV: Iglesias (11)
Statcast | Box Score | Game Thread

Graham Ashcraft was struggling with his control in the 1st inning. He hit Ronald Acuna Jr. and almost hit Ozzie Albies, who reached on catchers interference. But he got out of the inning unscathed on a circus catch by Nick Senzel who misread the ball, got turned around, then recovered to make a leaping catch that he snowconed to end the inning. Ashcraft wasn’t as lucky in the next inning as Travis d’Arnaud hit a solo homer into the seats in right field to put Atlanta up 1-0.

It didn’t get better in the 3rd inning. Ozzie Albies led off with a home run that nearly left the stadium down the line. Matt Olson would smack a 1-out double and then score on a Marcell Ozuna single as the Braves made it 3-0. Cincinnati got that back in the bottom of the inning after TJ Friedl led off with a single and then scored on a 2-out 2-run homer from Matt McLain that cut the lead for Atlanta down to a run.

Graham Ashcraft retired the first two batters of the top of the 4th, but then Ozzie Albies singled, stole second base, and scored when Austin Riley doubled. Matt Olson then followed up with a 2-run homer to make it 6-2. It was Olson’s third homer in the last 24 hours. Cincinnati played the “repeater” game in their half of the inning as Elly De La Cruz singled to lead off the inning and scored when Spencer Steer homered off of the scoreboard ribbon in left field to make it a 2-run game. Joey Votto followed up with a single, and Curt Casali extended the inning with a 2-out single, but the Reds would strand two runners to end the inning.

After giving up a leadoff single in the 5th inning the Reds made a call to the bullpen to bring in Fernando Cruz. He would pick up a strikeout and then a grounder that turned into an inning-ending double play. Elly De La Cruz would walk with two out in the bottom of the inning, steal second, and then take third when the thrown down to the bag got away, but he’d be stranded at third base.

Both teams would walk in their half of the 6th but get nothing going from there. Alex Young then entered for the top of the 7th inning. After getting Matt Olson to ground out he would give up a homer to Marcell Ozuna as the Braves extended their lead to 7-4. After a 2-out walk to Eddie Rosario the Reds called on Daniel Duarte to come into the game. He needed one pitch to get a ground out to end the inning.

Silvino Bracho took over for Cincinnati in the top of the 8th inning. He gave up a 1-out single to Ronald Acuna Jr., who then stole second base. With two outs Austin Riley hit a chopper that Elly De La Cruz charged from short and fielded, but had no play at first and instead of making a throw there he fired home as Acuna Jr. was trying to steal a run by rounding third but he was out by 15 feet and didn’t even attempt to get in a run down as Luke Maile walked up the line to tag him to end the inning.

The Reds went down in order in the bottom of the 8th inning. Bracho returned for the 9th inning and worked around a walk and a single to send the game to the bottom of the 9th with Atlanta leading 7-4.

Raisel Iglesias entered the game to face his former team for the first time in his career. TJ Friedl struck out to begin the inning, but then Jake Fraley crushed a solo homer to make it a 7-5 game. The Reds then called on Will Benson to pinch hit for Kevin Newman and he also crushed a solo home run to make it 7-6. Matt McLain struck out, leaving the game up to Jonathan India to extend. Iglesias came out on top as he picked up a strikeout to end the game and the Reds 12-game winning streak.

Key Moment of the Game

Marcell Ozuna’s solo home run in the 7th inning that would eventually turn out to be the winning run for the Braves.

Notes Worth Noting

Elly De La Cruz extended his hitting streak to seven games. He’s now hitting .359/.423/.641 on the season with eight steals in 16 games played.

Matt McLain had been 1-11 in his last four games, but he broke out of that mini slump with a 2-hit day that including a homer. The rookie infielder is hitting .309/.367/.493 through his first 36 games this year.

Jake Fraley’s hot June continued. He came off of the bench and went 1-2 with a homer. He’s now hitting .368/.455/.868 in 12 games during the month. Fraley’s played in 12 games in June and has hits in nine of them – the three that he doesn’t were games when he came off of the bench to pinch hit or pinch run.

Up Next for the Cincinnati Reds

Atlanta Braves vs Cincinnati Reds

Sunday June 25th, 1:40pm ET

Charlie Morton (6-6, 3.71 ERA) vs TBA

212 Responses

  1. Mark Moore

    The boys showed up again today … just a little late and without enough men on base. It was gonna happen at some point. We can hold our heads high knowing we battled against a team like the Bravos the way we did. The “never quit” attitude just floors me.

    Start again tomorrow and head into the break on another winning streak! I still might try and sneak up to DC if the weather looks favorable.

    • CI3J

      India has really been scuffling lately. He’s hitting just .222/.312/.432 in June.

      Also, it may be a coincidence, but he was hitting about 50 points higher when he was batting leadoff. It seems like India changes his approach when he’s hitting 3rd vs hitting 1st, as his SLG is slightly higher hitting 3rd, but it comes with big drops to his AVG and OBP.

      • Dennis Westrick

        Exactly! If our manager would actually look at and understand individual stats he would put India back in the leadoff spot!

      • Steve Schoenbaechler

        Just another inadequacy of Bell.

      • Jeremiah James Grissom

        Yeah I been noticing this too that India has not been really too good in the 3 spot. I don’t blame Bell for trying. It made sense when he did it. That was before I think De La Cruz, Votto, maybe when Mclain came up? I like India either hitting leadoff or down in the order at 5th. I think it’d be ok to keep him at 3rd a little longer, but if he keeps struggling gotta move him to a different spot in the order.

      • Chris

        All that maybe true, but I’d much rather have Friedl in the leadoff spot, no matter if it’s a righty or a lefty starting. If India can’t bat 3rd, move him back to 5th or 6th.

      • jmb

        At first he hit better in the 3 hole. where making his power surge on the last road trip paid dividends. But moving him either up or down the lineup would be good at this point. Dropping Freidl in the lineup was the right thing to do, as he’s scuffling too. That said, good streak!

      • Tar Heel Red

        Personally I have always preferred a LH’ed hitter in the two hole so he can hit behind the runner and advance him. If it were me I would go India, Friedl and De La Cruz 1-2-3 and adjust everyone else accordingly.

  2. Jim t

    Tough way to end our winning streak but it shows the fight in this team. Let’s start a new streak tomorrow.

  3. GreatRedLegsFan

    Ashcraft is now sporting a 7.17 ERA in 69 IP, how far can he go?

    • Steve Schoenbaechler

      I don’t know about his interview. But, it did seem like he was pitching with a lot more conviction today, not holding back, like he has in recent outings. Getting a couple of rehab starts in at Louisville could have probably helped things.

  4. nnati

    Ashcraft is Not a Major League Baseball pitcher

    • nnati

      We need starting pitching in a bad way; otherwise we could be best team in National League.

      • nnati

        …and by the way, all of you bashers out there againt Manager Bell and Kevin Newman, stop. Bell has done a fantastic job, and Newman has been a hard worker on field and at plate. Really good baseball.

      • Steve Schoenbaechler

        You get on Ashcraft but defend Bell? Yeah, that’s makes sense.

      • greenmtred

        Noted without further comment: The 12-game winning streak achieved by Bell’s Reds is longer than any winning streak by Sparky’s Reds.

    • SlippinJimmy

      The longer they wait to send him down to AAA, the longer it delays any chance he has of hopefully regaining decent form.

      Also, Barry Larkin (as much as I respect him in a general sense) is an absolutely worthless commentator and his complete inability to provide any criticism whatsoever just makes him sound like a fool. Ashcraft got rocked again Barry. He’s still no good.

      Neither Ashcraft nor Weaver have any business starting any more games, which is tough, with all these guys out. The Reds really need to acquire some pitching help. Maybe they should try and get some deals done early?

    • Mark A Verticchio

      You might be right but the question is who is this first place team going to start besides Abbott and Williamson. I guess they will have to stick with Weaver for now and pray. That still leaves two open spots. I am sure they will give Ashcraft another chance despite how he looked today and what about the other spot, Stoudt, good luck. They are just going to have to out hit everybody and depend a lot on the bull pen. That formula has not been successful for many teams. We can only hope that Krall gets busy asap, if they want to compete this year they most likely can’t wait for Greene and Lodolo.

      • Steve Schoenbaechler

        That’s the thing. These pundits are getting on a pitcher giving up runs to the defending World Champs?! What did they want from Ashcraft coming off of IL? A no-hitter? I was just glad to see him pitch would more conviction.

      • jmb

        Lively, for one. Stout’s not looking so hot. Let’s see how he does today. Kennedy and Mariot may get their chance. Let’s see if they can become Livelys.

    • Steve Schoenbaechler

      Ashcraft was our ace in April. He hasn’t been the same since he took that hit off his leg. I’m willing to give the youngster a bit.

      • VaRedsFan

        This was his 1st start since being hit.

      • Longtimefan

        This is his first game since he got hit on the leg and it was pretty much exactly as he has been for the last several starts before being hit. He has basically been a batting practice pitcher. His ERA is higher than all of our other pathetic starters. He pitched alot better and with more conviction, really, he gave up 6 runs and 10 hits in 4 innings. Is that his benchmark? Is that what we want from him? He has very little movement on his pitches in the strike zone. The pitches with any movement are out of the strike zone and he is dependent on batters chasing them. 93 mph with location and movement is way better than 97 mph straight pitches in the sweet spot. We can’t afford to have him working out his issues in the majors. Send him to Louisville and see if he can get better. Although I have no idea who would take his spot in the rotation because we severely lack major league quality starting pitching in several places which keeps our bullpen wore down.

      • jmb

        Yes, VaRedsFan is right. He was stellar his first 6 appearances, but then lost his mojo. Out of his 8 starts since, only one could be said to be acceptable (5 innings, 3 runs), the other 7 were disasters. Getting hit on the leg was just an excuse to get him off the field. If Greene hadn’t gone on the IL, Ashcroft wouldn’t be out there.

      • Steve Schoenbaechler

        For VaRedsFan


      • Steve Schoenbaechler

        For Longtimefan

        Ashcraft definitely pitched different today then when he took that hit off his leg.

      • Steve Schoenbaechler

        For jmb

        Because of the hit he took off his leg. Duh.

  5. Ron

    I don’t know much but there are 2 things I do know.
    1 Reds need starting pitching.
    2 Nick Senzel cost us a run when he didn’t advance on a wild pitch. Next hitter got a single and would have scored a run.

    Also I would have a hard time sitting Benson. Twice the player that Senzel is. Just my opinion.

    • Beaufort Red

      Senzel was in no man’s land. Acuna makes the play he gets doubled off first. Heads up play by Acuna bad break for Senzel. On another note, I believe Ashcraft needs to be sent down to work things out. If he can’t get AAA hitters out he’s got bigger problems.

    • Steve Schoenbaechler

      Senzel is just playing out of position. On, they have him playing RF only twice. LF 6 games, CF 13 games this season, for a guy who came up in college and the minors playing 2nd and 3rd. But, we have no other right handed bats in the OF when Bell wants one out there.

    • bug

      I agree, Ron. Right on the money. Senzel was asleep, and it cost us a run. And I thought we were supposed to be aggressive baserunners. Then him trying to throw the man out at third on a sac fly? Dumb!!! Both runners moved up to 2nd and 3rd because of it. Luckily we got out of the inning unscathed,..but it does not take away the fact that it was still a dumb move. And the worst part is,’s the same thing we did twice a couple days ago,..try to throw a man out at third on a sac fly to right field when we had no chance of doing it. I’m thinking it was Benson who did it the other two times, the same game,..but I might be wrong. Both times the runner at first moved to second on the stupid throw to third,..when we had no chance of getting the runner going from second to third. That’s 3 times this week we did that moronic move. Poor coaching and dumb play by the right fielder. But I digrss. Senzel needs to wake up,..not to mention, he needs to learn how to hit a baseball.

      • Steve Schoenbaechler

        What you are referring to is something I was thinking about the other day.

        I love to have flexibility in the batting order, and flexibility in playing positions. But, Senzel came up in college and the minors playing 3rd and 2nd. Then, once up here, we asked him to play CF. Then, we ask him to learn some RF. And, now, some LF? They’re trying to make Senzel a “jack of all trades”.

        I can’t entirely hold this against Bell. For, there were no other right handed bats in the OF for Bell to use. So, the FO gets some blame for that.

        I don’t know about you all, but this would not sit well with me. Just give me 1-2 positions when I’m at that level and enough. Quit moving me around expecting me to still understand all of the nuances of the position. Some of that, like playing the wall in the OF, is something that got Senzel and Hamilton injured.

      • JB

        “Senzel needs to wake up,..not to mention, he needs to learn how to hit a baseball”
        The guy is basically leading the league in hitting against left handers. So there’s that…

  6. Pharmer85

    India needs a day off. Not a 3 hole hitter. Benson deserves more ABs. Hope he’s in there tomorrow

  7. Tim

    They kept playing until the fat lady sang. That was a fun run. Looking forward to getting to the park soon.

    • SlippinJimmy

      If only Elly could’ve gotten to the plate…

      • VaRedsFan

        So you mean batting order matters?
        A lot here thinks it doesn’t

      • Melvin

        Come to think of it you’re right. Michael Jordan I mean De La Cruz should be in the top three. It matters. Arguably the best player in the game should be at the top. I wouldn’t mind having him hit leadoff if we only had a solid every day can hit righties or lefties powerful RBI good AVE/OBP guy somewhere…..even in the minors hitting 4th. Anybody know of anyone like that?

  8. CI3J

    India has really been scuffling lately. He’s hitting just .222/.312/.432 in June.

    Also, it may be a coincidence, but he was hitting about 50 points higher when he was batting leadoff. It seems like India changes his approach when he’s hitting 3rd vs hitting 1st, as his SLG is slightly higher hitting 3rd, but it comes with big drops to his AVG and OBP.

    • Beaufort Red

      I agree. He seems to make an emphasis on putting the ball in play at lead off. I think the first 4 should be India, McClain, EDLC and Steer. After that depends on lefty or righty pitcher.
      I may be in the minority, but I think Votto should be given the day off against lefties.

    • Harry Stoner

      This offset some by Frieda’s productivity at leadoff.

      Except, of course, when he doesn’t lead off so Bell can have his ‘hard working’ homie Newman lead off.

      Kevin Newman leading off. Bell’s got it locked in his head.

      And of course he waits to the last minute to pinch hit for him (and move Senzel to 3B).

      Bell apologists credit him for the recent general success of the team as a whole and never question the myriad of small strategic decisions he makes counter to reason, stats or his own previous habits.

      He remains a very mediocre manager blessed with a talented team.

      • Dennis Westrick

        I couldn’t have said it better about Bell’s managing “style’! Baseball is as much a cerebral game as it is physical. And, it’s the little things that the manager does or does not do throughout the game that often decides the outcome! Bell is a reactionary manager and often waits one batter too late to change pitchers or batters!

      • Steve Schoenbaechler

        Bell needs to be leading off India. Friedl can bat 2nd. Elly third, Steer 4th. McLain can come up 5th.

      • Michael E

        Yeah, India’s hitting goes to pot when he is in 3-4-5 area. He needs to get back to putting the bat on the ball and taking pitches, instead of trying to yank an HR every swing. Agreed that moving India to leadoff or down to say 7th makes sense at this point.

      • Roger

        The reds would not be able to hire or afford a manager better than Bell.

      • Tomn

        Actually I like friedl hitting leadoff
        So friedl, India, eldc, steer, Fraley, McLain, Votto, catcher, benson/other

        Batting order does matter. Imho

    • MBS

      VS RHP
      EDLC 3B McLain SS Friedl CF
      India 2B Votto 1B Steer DH
      Fraley RF Stephenson C Benson LF

      VS LHP
      EDLC SS McLain 2B Friedl CF
      India DH Votto 1B Steer LF
      Senzel RF Stephenson C Newman 3B

      That’s how I’d line them up until CES is called up. No need to run out a 2nd C into the starting lineup.

  9. Steve Schoenbaechler

    I have no problem with a loss. How do they respond now? That’s what I’m interested in.

    The trend of this team has been, they will lose 2-3 more, then get back to normal. We will see.

    I trust Krall is looking for some pitching. Where, then, why don’t we see any? The other teams are obviously asking for too much. I’m just wondering what are they asking for.

    Then, also, many limiting conditions. For example, very few teams are out of all races right now. Any teams still in races, they are probably unlikely to deal pitching. And, those out of races, one of the reasons they are out of races is very possibly because their pitching sucks. So, there’s just not that many sellers out there right now.

    • Mark Moore

      +5,000 and I’m with you on all points. Tomorrow is the test.

    • Rob

      Agree on a lot of points. Yes, I think the sellers market is limited. But I do think the few rebuilders have a few pitchers that can be had. And yes, I think a few of these guys are better than Weaver, Stoudt, Overton, etc. Now do you want to grab one of these overpaid not so great guys now? Or wait 3-4 weeks when there certainly will be more and better availability as well as more competition? I don’t know. I do believe though that we need 1-2 starting pitchers today. Non Louisville types. We need them just as badly for continuing to remain competitive for the next 45 days as well as for preserving the bullpen for the last 2 months. Just my view.

      • Steve Schoenbaechler

        And, you are only looking at one end of it, our end.

        What is the other team looking for to get that pitcher? They are going to be in a rebuilding mode. So, are they going to be interested in players like Senzel, Newman, etc.? No, they are going to be interested in our prospects, maybe our youngsters we have right now on the team like Steer, Elly, and McLain.

        I mean, how do you think we got what we did when we traded away someone like Castillo? Mahle? Gray? We didn’t look for other struggling pieces. We didn’t look for has-beens. We looked for prospects. Teams who are out of races right now are going to be doing the same thing for anything they have.

  10. Andrew Brewer

    Down 7-4 going into the ninth… Yeah, we got’em right where we want ’em. First Fraley, and then Benson come in as pinch hitters and both go yard… and the Reds come up short just like Atlanta did last night. I’m going to say that India needs to play 2nd to make him a better hitter, and Votto needs to be the DH. Steer can play first base all day too. Putting Friedl down (way down) in the order didn’t help things at all.
    The Reds are still playing amazing ball. Too bad about Ashcraft. If we don’t have Starters then it’s just pitch them as along as they’ve got the stuff. Call up who we can. Our bullpen is not the one we saw last year, and neither is our young Team.

    • TR

      Steer does a good job defensively at first base and he’s a solid player apparently willing to play where needed.

  11. Michael E

    Not sure how they won 12 in a row with this dumpster fire rotation. Ashcraft is NOT an SP. He needs moved to middle/long reliever.
    Need to promote an SP from AAA/AA, even a mediocre one is better than all but Abbott (excluding Greene on IL and Lodolo who is AT LEAST a month away from next start).
    Is there a standout Independent League starter or someone dominating in Mexico or Cuba that could be brought over next week?

    • Dewey Roberts

      Disagree about Ashcroft. He had not pitched well after he got hit by a ball. He will get it turned around. Watch and see.

      • VaRedsFan

        This was his 1st start since being hit.

      • greenmtred

        Somebody pointed out recently that his wheels came off after his grandmother died. He was reportedly very close to her.

  12. Michael E

    I’d be okay packaging Ashcraft with Marte and Senzel for a good or near great SP with another year or two of control.

    • Beaufort Red

      Have you seen Ashcraft lately? Who would trade a quality starter for one with all kind of issues? Ashcraft doesn’t have a lot of trade value. Neither does Senzel. Marte is too valuable. Maybe another A or AA player but not Marte.

    • Steve Schoenbaechler

      If that kind of pitcher is out there, their team isn’t interested at all in giving them up. Odds are their team is in a pennant race.

  13. Steve Schoenbaechler

    I can’t believe I’m hearing this dissing of Ashcraft, who just came off IL, pitching against the defending World Champs! The dude is still young compared to other pitchers. What were you expecting? A 9 inning shutout?! Then, you all are calling for AAA and AA starters to come up, thinking they are going to do any better against the defending World Champs?!

    All of you all are nuts! The only problem I had with Ashcraft was he could have gotten a couple of rehab starts at Louisville before pitching for the Reds again. But, in no way was I expecting Ashcraft to hold Atlanta to 1-2 runs at most for 7 innings, much less any of our AAA or AA pitchers.

    Get a sense of perspective, people.

    • bug

      I concur, Steve. I thought Ashcraft showed a lot of promise today. At Great American Park, you can pop up and it go for a home run. We need to move the fences back. It’s like pitching in a little league park. But Ashcraft made some great pitches today. And some of his great pitches were hit by some good hitters. It happens. We surely need starting pitching,..but it would be crazy to give up on Ashcraft. He shows lots of promise. Now Weaver? That’s another story. Not so sure about Williamson either. Lively is not great, but he throws strikes. Lot to be said for throwing strikes. Jmo.

    • Melvin

      Ashcraft is a VERY GOOD pitcher who is young and struggling. Any team would love to have Ashcraft and for us to be dumb enough to give him away. I say give him some time. You’ll be happy you did.

      • Steve Schoenbaechler

        Not to mention letting him go and replacing him with any other AAA or AA pitcher? Just nonsensical.

    • BK

      Astros are the defending World Series champions–they defeated the Phillies. Braves won in 2021.

  14. JB

    Weaver has given up 19 of his 46 runs in the first inning. Why don’t they try a opener with him and see if it works. Ashcraft seemed to get two strikes on the batter and then he would groove one. I think he was a little gun shy today after he almost or did hit about 10 guys in the first. He was really trying in the first and seemed to be over throwing. Maybe it’s not pitching for a few weeks and pumped up to much. Homers? They are going to happen in GABP. Braves hit a ton of them. Solo shots are better than two or three run home runs. I can accept them. Let’s see how he does next time out.

    • SR

      Anybody know why Phillips got pulled after one inning tonight? Was he injured?or is he coming north?

      • LarkinPhillips

        He was WILD! Walked in a run. Pretty disappointing considering it was a game to win the first half championship.

  15. RedlegScott

    Starting pitching? Do we get it now or risk scuttling the season? What say you, Mr. Krall?

  16. Indy Red Man

    I was thinking about our old friend Lorenzen who goes tonight or maybe Paul Blackburn w/Oakland. 4.20s last year, 4.20s this year, but a start each vs Atlanta and Milwaukee and combined for 10 innings 1 run. Do we have anyone that could that besides Abbott? No. Neither one would cost that much either.

    I said Ashcraft would need to work inside and came out firing inside heaters to Acuna but he hit him. I’d give him 1 more start then adios to AAA….and against Baltimore and not SD. He’ll throw a nice biting slider then roll 2 up there to give some lucky fan a HR ball. The arm is there atleast.

    Call up Phillips in the meantime and whoever gets the highest groundball % between Mariot and Kennedy. Last time I’m saying this s too, but call up CES already. He’s a better offensive player then Newman, Senzel, and Joey vs lhp. Captain Obvious alert

    • jmb

      CES seems to be in a bit of a slump. Is he bored down in AAA? If so, time to call him up.

  17. SR

    Strange Benson sat last three days until ninth today. Barrero and Fairchild are playing tonight After multiple games of sitting on the wood. Are these potential trade pieces?

  18. AMDG

    Unfortunately the Reds weren’t able to score enough to overcome a typical Ashcraft start 🙁

  19. Indy Red Man

    Lorenzen tomorrow…never mind.

    Last post then I’ll go enjoy 1st place somewhere. Move Fraley to 3rd vs righties. The dude is Locked in vs rhp. Move India down and that only lengthens the lineup.

    Steer, Stephenson, Benson 789 is crazy. Or India, TS, WB

  20. Steve Schoenbaechler

    Something I just posted somewhere else on here, I will expand here.

    One thing I would like to see from the Reds is to get some more “position definition” on the team, or whatever you want to call it.

    What do I mean? For example, back in 75-76, I believe we all heard how Sparky hardly ever played the “big 8” altogether, something like maybe 100 games per season. However, when Sparky wanted to win a game, playoffs, WS, etc. Sparky knew exactly who he was going to play and where.

    But, not only from the perspective of the manager but the players. . .when they did play, they knew exactly where they were going to play. They didn’t have to get ready to play any other position. I can’t help thinking that made things so much easier on their preparation, how much work they needed to get in to be ready to play a position.

    For instance, like Senzel, he came here as a 3rd baseman. They had him play a lot of 2nd I believe in the minors. He got up here, moving him to CF. Now, this year, they are having him learn how to play LF and RF, also? I know that would be messing me up. I mean, I work so hard at my infielding ability to get the college scholarship and get drafted, playing IF in the minors. Then, not only do they move me to the CF, but now I have to learn the corner OF positions, also?

    I mean, I could even understand having players ready to play 2 different positions during the season, like 1st base and LF. But, if you want them to learn another position, do that in ST, not during the season. Then, once you do move them to that position, keep them there. Senzel has had to play 5 different positions this year. That would drive me nuts.

    • Oldtimer

      The Great 8 played only 80 games together COMBINED in 1975 and 1976. Nowhere near 100 games per season.

    • Indy Red Man

      But he doesn’t hit well enough to be a regular? Not on this team. He might be better in the OF if he wasn’t on the IL like a teenager on their phone.
      Oh he made a great catch….yeah cause he got turned around like a pretzel. Dumb throw to 3B and wouldn’t/couldn’t steal or would’ve scored on a 2 out single. And I’m cutting him slack on the ball to RF.
      Not a fan. Stewie is far better since Senzel is basically only OF on this team

      • Steve Schoenbaechler

        Very possibly because he’s so worried about making sure he plays the defense well. So, he’s not considering his offense enough, not working on keeping it up enough, etc. Very easily understood. I know if I had to worry about what new position I would be playing each game, I wouldn’t be worrying about how I was hitting the ball so much. But, if I knew each day, when I did play, I was going to play SS, then I would know I can just make sure to take some grounders and throws for defense, then get some hitting in. Much easier prep. Very well understood.

      • Steve Schoenbaechler

        As well as, I was only using him as an example.

        For example, do you know where Senzel is playing tomorrow? Steer? Newman? Elly? Others? Don’t you think it would make things easier for them overall if they all knew that “if” they were going to play, they knew what positions they were going to play? For example, again, for example, one more time, for example, don’t you think that it would make things easier for Senzel if when he did play, any game throughout the season, he knew he was going to play 3rd base? If Steer was going to play, any game throughout the season, he was going to play 1st base? If Elly was going to play, it was going to be DH? And others?

        Quite easily understood.

      • VaRedsFan

        What kind of weak mind do you think pro athletes have? They are not at the plate worried about where the play in the field during an AB.

        Any player past the Little league level knows what base to throw to. His value to this team right now, is a platoon partner with Fraley. He might catch the ball better at 3rd, but who cares, because he can’t hit better than any of the other guys that can play there.

      • Steve Schoenbaechler

        For VaRedsFan

        Just how do you think Hamilton got so injured?

        Just how do you think Senzel got so injured?

        Much of the time was playing the wall. No wall to be worried about playing infield for so many years. That is a specific nuance with the position where if you haven’t kept up with it, you aren’t sure how to play it. Even many experienced OFers misplay the walls.

        All it takes is a little common sense.

    • greenmtred

      And, of course, they were entirely different players. Bench, Morgan, Rose, etc. didn’t generally need platooning. Some of the young current players don’t, either, and more may achieve that status going forward. As for fixed positions, Rose and Perez switched positions and it was also a different era with different analytical tools. Apples and oranges.

      • Steve Schoenbaechler

        The thing is, I never remember seeing Morgan playing 5 different positions. Concepcion playing 5 different positions. Bench playing 5 different positions. Sure, Rose did, but I never remember seeing him doing that “in a single season”. What I remember from Rose, it was 3rd base initially, later on, first base.

        But, that’s what the Reds are doing with Senzel. That would drive me nuts. Quite easily understood.

      • Oldtimer

        Morgan played 2B only. Concepcion played three INF positions. Bench played C, 1B, 3B, and OF. Rose played 2B (1963 to 1966), OF either LF or RF (1967 to 1974), 3B (1975 to 1978), and 1B (1984 to 1986) as a Red.

      • Steve Schoenbaechler

        For Oldtimer. . .

        Did they play all of those positions “in one single year”? I never remember any of that.

      • Optimist

        Pete played all over, but generally one set position in any single season. Perez started at 1b, played 5 years at 3b, then they traded Lee May and it was back to 1st. Bench, Morgan, Concepcion basically only played one position each – the OFer’s were pretty much set as well.

        Still, different era, different players.

      • Steve Schoenbaechler

        For oldtimer. . .

        Oldtimer, “one set position in any single season”

        That’s my entire point! We all know Pete played all over. But, it was pretty much one set position all season. That’s what I would like the Reds to concentrate on achieving for next season.

        But, we’ve already have asked Senzel to play 5 different positions this season. That would drive me nuts. Here, trying to learn all the nuances of one position, then, BAM, I get sent to another position. Senzel can’t concentrate on his hitting; he’s too busy learning to play other positions.

      • VaRedsFan

        @ Steve, You are trying to invent an excuse that doesn’t exist. Senzel is an OK payer against lefties. All of that position switching is just unnecessary noise.

        If he’s a good player, he can adjust. It’s been what, 5 years now?
        Steer is a rookie, and he’s doing it. Ballplayer. No excuses necessary.

      • Oldtimer

        To SS. Yes. Look it up on Baseball Reference.

      • Oldtimer look up the players here. I suggest doing a little research.

        You changed your story but even there Reds stars of BRM played multiple positions in their Reds careers.

        Sparky “rested” them by playing them at a different spot. Yes, in a single season.

      • Jim Walker

        Other than Rose switching spots as younger talent came aboard and using Bench some at 1B and corner OF to keep his bat in the lineup when he wasn’t catching, there was not much switching around of the 1970’s “regular 8” who played together from 1972-76. Here are the details….

        Per BBRef, Concepcion from 1970-79 played in the field other than shortstop a grand total of 44 times, 14 at 2B, 22 at 3B and 8 in the CF. From 1973 through 1979, he made only 9 appearances away from SS, 6 at 3B and 3 in CF.

        During the 1970s Bench made 225 defensive appearances away from catcher, 68 at 1B, 46 at 3B, 54 at LF, 55 at RF and 2 at CF.

        Geronimo played only CF as a Reds player. Morgan played only 2B with the Reds.

        Tony Perez played 302 games at 3B in 1970 and 1971. From 1972 until he was traded away after the 1976 season, Tony played only at 1B for the Reds.

        Griffey Sr. with the Reds in the 1970s, played almost exclusively in RF, with just 2 appearances in LF and 21 in CF.

        Foster played 275 games at CF for the Reds (101 before Geronimo arrived for the 1972 season) and ~170 in RF for the Reds; the rest of his games except 2 at 1B were in LF.

      • Jim Walker

        Concerning Bench’s 225 appearances at positions other than catcher in the 1970’s, my memory based opinion is the bulk of them were in doubleheaders and quick turnaround day games after night games.

        And if my hand done addition is correct (the BBRef appearances table won’t total selected lines for some reason), Bench made an even 1300 catching appearances during the decade. Some of those 225 games he probably came in late as a PH and stayed in to catch. Others be may have started at 1B or OF and switched behind the plate when the regular guy PH hit late in a game and stayed in.

      • greenmtred

        You’re right, Steve, and that was part of my point: players of that caliber–particularly when you have 8 of them–don’t need platooning much and handle their positions well. The current Reds seem to be building a lineup that may achieve similar status. But it’s worth noting that EDLC seems to do pretty well switching back and forth between SS and 3rd and McClain seems okay moving from SS to 2nd. Other teams use positional flexibility, too, because it adds insurance against injuries and increases lineup options.

      • Oldtimer

        Bench played C only 1967 through 1969.

        In 1970 Bench started 130 games C. 8 games LF. 7 games RF. 2 games CF. 5 games 1B. Total 22 games not C.

        1971. 141 C. 8 LF. 2 RF. 3 3B. 1 1B. Total 14 games not C.

        1972. 124 C. 17 RF. 2 1B. 4 3B. Total 23 games not C.

        1973. 124 C. 22 RF. 3 1B. 1 3B. Total 26 games not C.

        1974. 124 C. 30 3B. Total 30 games not C.

        1975. 115 C, 15 LF. 3 1B. 3 RF. Total 21 games not C.

        These are games STARTED only.

      • Steve Schoenbaechler

        For VaRedsFan

        VaRedsFan, “You are trying to invent an excuse that doesn’t exist. Senzel is an OK payer against lefties.”

        You are entirely missing the point. 100% miss. Just this post here tells everyone you are talking about offense. I am talking about defense.

      • Melvin

        Pretty cool info about Bench Oldtimer. 🙂

  21. Oldtimer

    53 years ago TONIGHT the Reds played their last game in Crosley Field. Won 5-4 over SFG on HR by Bench and May off Juan Marichal.

    I was there with my brother. We were also at Riverfront Stadium on June 30, 1970 for first game there.

    • David

      Lee May was a really good baseball player and really nice man. In that era, a lot of the other black players on the Reds looked on him as their leader. Best friends with Tony Perez, was his witness when Perez became a naturalized American citizen.
      God rest his soul, he’s gone now.

  22. GMan88

    I would take Karcher over Ashcraft right now. Even Mark Sheldon was pointed about his outing today.

  23. LarkinPhillips

    The negativity tonight is amazing. I’m a proclaimed Bell/DJ critic, but the team just won 12 straight and lost by one to arguably the best team in the game. Let’s relax, enjoy the streak, and see what tomorrow brings.

    • Beaufort Red

      I do agree about Steve Schoenbaechler’s assessment of Senzel. How can you concentrate on hitting when your learning new positions on the fly. That snow cone catch was made only because of his athleticism. He’s actually more versatile than Newman. There’s enough pressure as it is without piling on more.

      • Indy Red Man

        Steer can obviously do it though. Maybe Senzel just isn’t that good

      • Hal Ludwig

        Ding, ding, ding we have a winner Indy!

    • greenmtred

      Yeah. +10000 more. I think the winning has been hard on some of our fellow commenters. Knowing, as they do, that they know more about baseball and the players, the sustained excellence muted them for awhile. But now they can feel righteous again. I’m so happy for them.

      • Indy Red Man

        Lol. Yeah we were all stupid to call for Elly 6 weeks ago instead of dropping 2 to Milwaukee without him that we should’ve won. It’s not like Elly did anything remarkable in the minors or anything. Same with Abbott. Dominated the minors and other top organizations call up 20 yr olds (Atlanta today), but we had to run the funky bunch out there to get annihilated

    • Jimbo44CN

      I agree, you would think we just lost 12 in a row. We lost a one run game in the 9th inning to probably the best team in all of baseball. We have been doing pretty darn good. All this talk about switching positions and where Rose played is , well, not really relevant. WE JUST WON 12 IN A ROW, and in 1st place.
      And BTW, Pete started his career in the outfield. I was at Crosley on Knothole night to see it.

  24. LDS

    The numbers are available to Bell just as they are to the rest of us. Does he have more numbers? Sure. But, to say he’s an analytics guy as some do here, or attribute his decisions to non-public information, again as some do here, is to ignore the evidence of your own eyes over the last five years. Bell routinely makes inexplicable decisions that usually don’t work out. When they do he’s lauded as a great manager by some. Does India hit better when batting lead off? Sure does. Should Friedl start against LH’ers as he did today? Numbers say yes. What about Fraley? Nope, numbers say no and Bell got this one right. What about pitchers with reverse splits? The list goes on and on. We’ve seen it for years. We’ll find something to criticize, regardless of who manages. That baseball and the web. But, hopefully, we’ll see new blood next year and the Reds might actually become truly competitive. Going to take some cash, probably a lot of it.

    • Steve Schoenbaechler


      Now, what I will admit, what I saw yesterday and today, maybe not as bad as at other times. But, still, there are times that simply don’t make sense.

    • Jimbo44CN

      WE are not competitive now? Come on.

      • LDS

        No. They have had a good streak and lead the division. But they lack the pitching, particularly starting pitching, to go deep into the playoffs. The OF could use some help as well. They have a strong young core emerging, but it’s too early to get overly excited. It’s good to win a bit no doubt, but we’re getting ahead of ourselves if we believe they have “arrived earlier” as Nightengale tweeted. They still have a negative run differential. They’ve given up more runs than any teams other than Colorado, Oakland, and KC. Spend some money, get better management, and we’ll be more enthusiastic about 2024 and 2025. If this Reds team wound up in the World Series, it would be a huge black swan event.

      • Pete

        Maybe, but by the end of the season, I could envision a starting rotation that looks like this:


        Likely, maybe not but possible.

        You keep mentioning run differential ignoring this is a totally different team than April’s version. This is a good team, not great but good. Good enough to win the Central anyway. Even with crappy starting pitching.

        David Bell isn’t going anywhere. He is locked in, nothing can be done but acceptance. The denial and bargaining stage is over me….at least.

      • LDS

        The Cubs have won 11 of 13 I think and have the best starting rotation in the league. The Reds have the start of a good team but they can’t win on hitting alone. Though God knows, after the last few years, it’s certainly a nice change to have some.

  25. Jeff Morris

    This Reds team just don’t quit! Hats off to the Reds players. Will Graham Ashcraft ever turn it around this year and pitch decently? Can this Reds team keep this up and play so well like they are doing now?

  26. Zach

    You start Benson over Senzel, or Fraley over Senzel, and you might have a win today. I can’t believe Benson was sat both games- absolutely unbelievable with how hot he’s been. There must be a reason beyond our knowledge. The guy has been outstanding since his stint at AAA. Even I discounted him after his demotion… but since the promotion… why are you benching him?

    Newman and Senzel should never be on the field the same day provided the rest of the current roster is healthy.

    • greenmtred

      Fraley can’t hit lefthanders. Think again.

      • Zach

        Hate to tell you, but Senzel hasn’t had a clear trend in left vs right success over his career. This season has been an oddity, but other than that he’s been average at best against lefties. I’d rather be giving the hot hand the bat with Benson. He’s only had 5 shots at lefties this year which is not reasonable to come to a conclusion.

        Senzel also looked terrible in RF. Benson has played RF well.

      • greenmtred

        But, Zach, this is the season he’s playing.

      • Steve Schoenbaechler

        Hate to tell you, but the announcer said Senzel has the highest BA in the league against left handers. That is pretty much a trend, at least for this year.

    • VaRedsFan

      I’m not a Senzel or Newman guy, but they should absolutely start against a lefty. They can, and should be taken down when the righty reliever comes in.
      Bell missed a huge opportunity to replace them, in a crucial part of the game.

    • jmb

      Braves starter was a lefty, so Senzel gets the call over Benson.

  27. Jeff Morris

    Be interesting to see what the Reds do at the trading deadline. This is probably Vottos last year with the Reds. Do you trade him and/or Senzel for starting pitching, which the Reds badly need. Also they need another decent left hander in the bullpen.

    • PTBNL

      Votto has a full no trade in his contract. He’s going nowhere.

      • jon

        He can still accept a trade anywhere but no they are not trading a soon to be 40 yr. old making 25m.

    • Jon

      Votto’s not getting traded. Senzel, almost guaranteed to be traded in my opinion. I could see Fraley get traded as well as part of a package deal to free up a spot for CES and get pitching.

      • Oldtimer

        Fraley is OF. CES is INF. Trading Fraley won’t free up a spot for CES.

      • Jon

        I believe CES recently began playing RF in Louisville.

      • Indy Red Man

        If Karcher is a closer and Winker was a CFer then I’m sure CES could play LF. Atleast in tiny GABP. Actually they could just leave Steer in LF or use him as the super sub for infield and outfield and play Benson in the OF

      • JB

        CES played RF for two games. He is now back on the dirt.

    • DHud

      If you’re on here suggesting a Votto trade you need to just not comment

  28. Indy Red Man

    Barrero Barrero
    When is your golden sombrero?

    Only 2 Ks tonight & hitting .091
    Trade him for coupon considerations maybe?

  29. Jon

    I don’t know all of the potential options available on the trade market, but Krall has to do something quick or this division lead will slip away as quickly as the Reds got it. Bieber, Cease, Paxton, about anyone would be an improvement over Ashcraft and Weaver (and now Stoudt). The Reds have a glut of SS prospects with no path to the Major League roster. They have CES who has no spot on the roster, at least not until Votto is gone after this year. Krall needs to make some difficult decisions and earn his paycheck as GM. Determine which prospects he is willing to part with to fix the rotation he tore apart before last season.

  30. Steve Schoenbaechler

    I have literally no problem with anything today, even with the loss. Dang, it was to the defending WS Champs. What did you want from Ashcraft, a pitcher still in only his second season, just coming off IL? A Cy Young performance? What did you want from the offense, 5 runs an inning? Sorry, but nothing works like that.

    My question now, as I’ve said before, life is a series of tests. Here is this team’s next test. How do they respond? The trend of this team has been, they lose several more, then get it back together. Hopefully, they can pick it all up tomorrow. It looks like Phillips is coming up. Don’t know. I hope he can handle it. Just one game, hopefully. Just take one game at a time.

    (With some of these posters today, if we lose tomorrow like we did today, I could see their responses, “Phillips is no major leaguer.” Well, Duh!)

    • Jon

      Stoudt tomorrow. Has not thrown more than 43 pitches in either start since returning from IL. The bullpen is already taxed.

    • Oldtimer

      Phillips not on 40 man. Stoudt is.

      • Hal Ludwig

        Like Boon to Otter; “forget it, he is rolling”

    • VaRedsFan

      Astros won the World Series last year.

  31. old-school

    Went to the game today and atmosphere and crowd amazing. a few observations.

    1.) Starting pitching. Reds dont have it right now and I dont have the answer other than Weaver isnt part of the solution. Was hoping Ashcraft would be sharp and benefit from his 2 weeks + reset. He didnt. Cruz was great giving 2 innings.
    2.) Braves can flat hit. Nothing wrong with 1-1 in the series. Albies has 18 home runs???? They are hands down the best hitting team in the NL. Acuna is the NL MVP and Riley and Olsen mash.
    3.) AJ minter braves BP was nasty and best pitcher of the day. The Ozuna RF HR was unfortunate. He sliced a 7 iron for a GABP special.
    4.) Casali had a nice long 2 out at bat with Senzel at 1b and I told my wife….Senzel needs to steal 2b. OF course Casali gets a hit and REds dont score the run as Senzel sat on first for 8-9 pitches.
    5.) Votto didn’t look good against lefty pitching. YEs he had a 1 in 1000 chopper infield single between 3 guys at 1b.
    6.) Reds scored enough runs but I dont like the Bell lineup against lefties. Newman isnt a lead off hitter. Votto hasn’t hit lefties since Brian PRice was manage and Casali at C and Newman at 3b and Senzel in RF is not the Reds best lineup.

    Great day tho and hopefully they take the series tomorrow.

    • Indy Red Man

      On top of it as usual. Only thing I would add is 2/3 of their HRs have been away or to center because we only work middle-away. Pound them inside already! Olsen has that slice to left down pat

    • VaRedsFan

      Senzel had an opportunity to take 2nd when a pitch got about 15-20 feet away from the catcher. Casali later singled.

    • Erik the Red

      Agree with your comments. I would add should India be leading off instead of Newman since he seems to be a better lead off hitter than a 3 hole hitter.

      • greenmtred

        He may be, but we’re dealing with a small sample size and assuming that his mini slump is due to batting 3rd.

  32. Indy Red Man

    Angels 23 Rox 0 in the 4th. Alrighty then

    Stoudt huh? Williamson’s stuff looks short to me, but he’s been great compared to Weaver/Ashcraft and they ran them out there. 4 innings 2 runs is a win

  33. Jeremiah James Grissom

    Incredible streak! Memorable no matter where they end up whether making the playoffs or not. My thoughts on the Reds currently;

    -Jake Fraley has been awesome recently. A potential Fringe All-Star
    -Most depth of position players I can remember on a Reds team in a long time. Everyone on the bench brings something to the table and could start on a lot of other teams.
    -TJ Friedl doesn’t get a ton of at bats against lefties but he’s been pretty good against them actually. Not sure why Bell is batting him 8th no matter who is pitching.
    -Bullpen has really been huge all year, kept them in a ton of games they would have lost in previous years.
    -Jonathan India hasn’t been very good hitting 3rd. I wonder if India is better leading off, or down in the order maybe 5th. Maybe he’s just having a rough June, but it seems he’s striking out more recently too? He’s a good player, but he may not be a #3 hitter. I’d kind of like to see Steer at times hitting 3rd. David Bell has so much depth with this lineup and team I can’t blame him for too many decisions, but sometimes batting Steer 7th, Friedl 8th etc. I question a little bit. But overall I think it’s just the depth of the team it’s got to be kind of fun to fill out the lineup card right now for Bell.

    -With our current Starting Pitching, I think the Cubs or Brewers would win the division. The Cubs are sneakily becoming pretty good, and probably have the best current overall team in the Central. Reds almost easily have the most talent, Brewers are just solid, the Pirates I don’t think are going to stick around and I think finally the Cards maybe actually aren’t going to be a factor. They still worry me, but I think they are digging such a big hole they won’t be able to get back into the race. But I’m expecting the Reds Starting Pitching to get healthy, maybe a trade, so in the sense I think they’re the favorite. August’s schedule is pretty tough, will be interesting.

    • Indy Red Man

      They play Milw 9 times in July with 6 on the road

    • VaRedsFan

      India leading off wasn’t broke. Not sure why they went with a change. Even when TJ was out, they left him in the 3 hole.

      • Melvin

        Never underestimate the value of a good leadoff hitter.

      • Indy Red Man

        McLain is a little guy and not middle of the order so #2 makes perfect sense. Freidl is raking and he’s also little so you want him batting 3rd vs rhp? Now India leadoff vs lefties makes sense, but I’d drop him way down vs righties. Steer is better. Fraley is way better. Even Benson is killing righties now

      • TR

        The upcoming Baltimore series is the midpoint of the season. After a half season of sorting, my preferred batting order is: India leading off. Friedl should bat second; he’s able to bunt. EDLC should be in third position since he needs to be at the plate as much as possible. Cleanup with Steer or CES when he gets here. McLain at 5th. position followed by Votto, Fraley, Stephenson and Benson. Adjust the lower batting order as needed.

  34. redfanorbust

    Wow. Ben Lively latest to the IL. Ashcraft looks pretty much the same as he did in the games before he got hit by the ball and that’s not good to see at all. Reds hitters can not be put into a situation where they have to get 6-7+ runs most games to cover for the SP and the bullpen can not continue to throw 3-4 innings most every game. I am having just as much fun as everyone with the streak but without decent SP winning even 2 of three can not be sustained IMHO.

    • RedlegScott

      rfb, to me you are stating the obvious regarding the pitching situation, especially the starters, and almost everyone on this site thinks something needs to be done about it now. Almost everyone, but NOT everyone. There are some who want to stick with what we have, no matter how bad, and not trade anyone of value from the farm system. They’re also hoping we can trade away players we don’t really need for a starter that many teams would want. Not going to happen. It’s either give up some real value or risk watching a flame out this year due to pitching, plain and simple.

      • Indy Red Man

        Another starter down though? It was already so bad that Lively was our #2….lol.
        They can’t get HG right either? Is it just pain? Larry Bird’s back was so bad he couldn’t sit on the bench, but he played.
        I want to be fair to the kid because Idk? We just can’t be without him.

        Bottom line it’s just not our time yet and any trade needs to be judged accordingly

      • Steve Schoenbaechler

        “Larry Bird’s back was so bad he couldn’t sit on the bench, but he played.”

        Larry Bird was never potentially having to stare down a 100 mph bullet coming right back at your head.

        For pitchers, better to be sure than sorry.

        The thing with me is, I see this a lot from our pitchers. Injuries, staffwide. One time is a coincidence. Multiple times? You have to look elsewhere. What the pitchers are doing? What the coaching is doing? What the medical/training staff is doing?

      • greenmtred

        The issue might be that the bad hip could affect his delivery and cause arm issues.

      • redfanorbust

        Hey RLS. Yeah it is obvious. I guess I just mention it because I see so many posteres getting so over the moon about our team right now. I am very happy as well and have to remind myself from time to time not to lose context of the larger picture. Yeah it is also obvious that we can make trades or stay pat. I personally lean toward standing pat till next year if ownership really opens up their purse strings in a significant way so we can go after above average free agents. Sure would be nice if Reds could catch a break (so to speak) along the way and somehow manage to keep our SP off the IL. Not like they are pitching too many innings. Anyway have a good one.

    • Steve Schoenbaechler

      Well, considering that few if any teams win 67% of their games, winning 2 of 3 is never sustained.

      • redfanorbust

        Sorry I did literally mean win 2 of 3 every 3 games. Guess I was just trying to make a point since we were on such a long winning streak.

  35. Reddawg2012

    Let’s just get through Sunday’s game with Stoudt, and then hopefully the Reds can get back to winning series. I know their schedule stays tough for awhile, but the Braves are nearly impossible to beat when you combine their offense with the Reds starting pitching. Especially at GABP.

    If the Reds can find a way to play .500 ball until August when they *hopefully* get Greene and Lodolo back, I think they’ll be in a good spot to make a real push. If they can’t, at least we know the future is bright beyond this season!

    • Steve Schoenbaechler

      Excellent post. 100% agreement.

      I’ve said before that I believe the Castellinis are trying to build the “Rays 2.0”. Small payroll, lots of winning baseball. If so, that’s fine with me. We just need to direct a lot of that action right now towards developing pitchers.

  36. Steve Schoenbaechler

    People here need to remember some things. . .badly.

    One, we just got one of our top 3 starters we started the season with off the IL. We were playing one of if not the top team in the NL, if not all of MLB. And, you are dissing him? Why? Because he didn’t throw a no-hitter? “Oh, no, I will give him a little more leeway than that.” He didn’t shut them out like he should always be doing? “Oh, no, I will give him a little more leeway than that.” He didn’t give up more than 2 runs in 7 innings after coming off the IL to face possibly the best team in the entire league, like the 10 year veteran of MLB that he is, like he should always be doing? He’s only in his second year still. Please. . .

    I was just glad to see that Ashcraft was pitching with more conviction seemingly today. Not holding back like he was before the injury. If anything, I believe Ashcraft should have taken a couple of rehab starts in Louisville before pitching up here again. But, with how the team has been going, with how he felt, he probably wanted to try to step up for the team, also. Could have he had a better performance? Sure. Ashcraft just held this same team to 2 earned runs at their ballpark back in April (yeah, really sounds like a pitcher who doesn’t belong here), a young pitcher, just coming off IL, with no rehab starts. It sounds like to me simply a young pitcher pitching. I’m just glad he pitched with more conviction.

    Remember, this guy was are ace, and a very effective pitcher, in April. But, he’s young, and he just got off the IL.

    Then, the others if not the entire starting rotation. . .

    We just get one of our top 5 guys back from the IL who we started the season with. The other 4 in the starting rotation we have right now, people on here are talking about they aren’t any better than AAA or even AA pitchers. Well, Duh! That’s why there weren’t on the starting 5 at the beginning of the season, much less anyone’s starting 5 at the beginning of the season.

    So, then, you all state to replace these “AAA and AA pitchers” with who? AA and AAA pitchers?! That makes a whole lot of sense. And, if those don’t work out, then who? You just want a revolving door on this team? Let’s see how many FA’s will want to come here, much less any players will want to come here ever again if they see a revolving door on the organization.

    Right now, the players/offense has been stepping up, obviously. Others need to step up. How so?

    The FO needs to step up and get some starting pitching in here. Now, that is going to be much harder than it sounds for them. For, few teams are out of races right now and, so few teams would be willing to bargain for starting pitching. And, if they are out of races, that’s probably because their starting pitching wasn’t that good in the first place. Not to leave out, the Castellinis had Krall get rid of most all of our bigger contract players and seek no other big contract players. You really think Castellini after all of that in the off season is going to approve Krall of overpaying and bringing in any high value contracts now?

    It’s like this. . .I trust Krall is looking to shop for groceries for his dad. But, there is no grocery store around. And, even if he did find one, the products were too expensive, so his dad would never approve of buying groceries from there.

    And, the coaches need to step up, also. Like many have stated here, India is much better at leadoff. Put him there, then. Maybe put Elly at #3. Steer was doing fine as #4 I thought.

    But, not only with the offense but the pitching staff, also. They have got to be on top of getting every realistic out they can get from each pitcher right now. Just thinking off the top of my head, Abbott wasn’t even at 90 pitches the other day. I would think it would be realistic to expect Abbott to get one more out without any sort of injury. Then, for Sims (9 pitches), Ian (12 pitches), and Farmer (11 pitches), I would think realistically 2 of the 3 could have gotten one more out, also. Three more outs realistically, then we save a reliever used. And all relievers would still probably be available for the next day.

    Remember, it’s not just the big things that can lose games. It can be the small things, also.

    • Steve Schoenbaechler

      Oh, to add with the grocery store analogy. . .

      Once Krall was to find a grocery store open, none of their stuff was any better than what Krall already has. So, Krall kept on looking.

    • Oldtimer

      SP is a scarce commodity in MLB. The Reds will have to pay up to get quality SP mid season. Just like teams who got Castillo, Gray, and Mahle from Reds last year.

      Back in the day, Reds P like Maloney and O’Toole struggled for a couple years before they hot their stride. Maloney up in 1960, but took off in 1963. O’Toole up in 1958, got much better in 1961.

      Greene, Lodolo, and maybe Ashcraft will become really good SP eventually. Not yet.

  37. CI3J

    Question: What to do with Benson?

    I know Bell likes batting Benson way down in the order, like 7th or lower, but Benson has actually been one of the Reds’ best hitters since he was recalled. His OBP leads the team by a lot since then.

    How much longer does Benson need to keep this up before you move him up in the lineup? With his OBP and speed, he’d make a great leadoff or or #2 hitter. It definitely seems like Benson deserves to be hitting higher than someone like, say, India at this point.

    I think perception of Benson is clouded a bit by his brutally awful April. With each passing game, Benson proves he’s clearly not that guy any more.

    You want to give your best hitters as many ABs as possible. Benson has unquestionably been one of the Reds’ best hitters.

    Let’s assume EDLC is the best hitter on the team. Who would you say is 2nd best? You could make a case for Friedl, Fraley, Benson, Steer, or McLain and I wouldn’t argue too much. But it’s definitely not India or Stephenson.

    • Reddawg2012

      I was really frustrated that Benson didn’t start on Friday and wasn’t used until the very end of the game on Saturday. I think he should start anytime they face a RHP, and I agree, he needs to move up in the order. I kind of like this idea:

      Friedl CF
      McLain 2B
      De Le Cruz SS
      Fraley RF
      Steer 3B
      Benson LF
      Votto 1B
      India DH
      Stephenson/whoever C

      In the lineup above, I wouldn’t be opposed to dropping McLain to the 7 spot right before India, and bumping everyone else up, at least temporarily. Despite the HR yesterday, McLain seems to be going through an adjustment period. It might not be the worst thing to take some pressure off. I don’t know, just thinking out loud lol.

  38. old-school

    Reds need a SP rental. Reds are in first place and hitting is good and bullpen continues to find ways. ITs the half way point of the season. There are a handful of SP out there who wouldn’t cost much as a 3 month rental. LAst years deadline the prospect costs were high only for the good players with control. Rentals were cheap.

    Reds could get Lorenzen for an A level prospect not in the top 20. He gives you innings, experience, high character guy and could flex to the bullpen later in the year if needed. Gotta do something.

    • VaRedsFan

      Lorenzen 6 innings 6 runs 2 starts ago against these same Braves, in a more pitcher friendly park.
      6 innings 6 runs vs Dbacks, 3 starts ago

      I guess if you squint real hard, he is better than Weaver and Ashcraft.
      Not enough to trade resources though. If it’s someone out of the top 15, then sure, why not.

      • old-school

        I think just a tangible upgrade is all thats needed, with low impact prospect capital. Braves are a juggernaut and Reds are done with that offense after today. Brewers/Reds in July could go along way to setting up the August/Sept stretch run in the NLC central with 9 games.

        Looking at Brewers lineup and stats, they are brutal offensively – Adames and Winker and even Tellez having down years. But, with Burnes and Peralta and Williams in the bullpen, that will be a big stretch.Did not realize Brandon Woodruff is in the 60 day il and not expected until sometime after the AS break.

    • VaRedsFan

      I wish it was just 1 SP needed, unfortunately, it’s at least 3.

    • Redsvol

      I agree old school. The starting pitching is going to start to demoralize the offense and bullpen. Starters are not doing their part.

      However, I think even a rental is going to cost us a higher prospect than you might think. Just keep in mind, they are prospects and won’t likely contribute to us in the end anyway.

    • jmb

      NO on Lorenzen! I was so happy to see that guy gone!

  39. Bill

    These comments are always hilarious. They just lost for the first time in 13 games, to a really good team, and are in 1st place. The team was projected to lose 100 games and are holding the rotation together with duct tape. Now it’s straight back to bashing Bell, Senzel, and every decision made.

    Relax. It’s a young team that wasn’t even built to compete for this year. They are still going to lose a lot of games. Going undefeated isn’t going to happen.

    • Indy Red Man

      True but now they’re in first place. The situation has changed. Improvise, adapt, and overcome. If they were 10.5 out like they normally are then you just keep sorting. Ashcrash serving up laser after laser wouldn’t matter

      • Bill

        Maybe you have some inside knowledge that I don’t. From what I know they don’t have anyone else to put on the mound, short of calling up guys from AA. What is it hurting by allowing Ashcraft to pitch? A week ago everyone was whining that Votto was washed up and would ruin the team chemistry. Now we can’t let one of the top SP from last season make a few starts after the IL?

        They can’t sign an ace right now. They could empty the farm system to get one at the deadline. Are we happy with giving up CES for a few months of a SP? Last year everyone complained there was no plan. Myself and others pointed out the plan was to accumulate young and purge the roster of expensive and sometimes underperfoming veterans. They did just that, dumped Moose, dumped the off season acquisition Myers. This year was for figuring out what they had identifying where to spend next year. Now it is clear there is a plan and it is working, but we want to abandon the plan at the first sign of success?

        Of course the team arriving a year early is going to alter some decisions. However those decisions can’t derail the current plan. This team can win the NL Central, and maybe they can catch fire and do some damage in the playoffs, but I don’t see this as a team threatening to win the World Series. Over the next four years if they are injury free and make some good signings they will be dangerous.

        The only thing they can realistically do right now is hope there starters come back from the IL and grab a backend starter and a bullpen arm to stabilize the pitching.

        Maybe you end the 3 catcher experiment and bring up CES? You could trade Newman or Senzel to free up a roster spot, but you aren’t getting much back. Maybe you trade Stephenson if he isn’t going to be C, but that is selling low. I really don’t see a solution to their problem. The problem is they don’t have a dominant SP they can send out in a playoff situation. Winning the NL Central is cool, but don’t forget what happened to the 2010 team who arrived a year early

      • greenmtred

        Good and thoughtful post, Bill.

  40. west larry

    The angels traded to get the moose!

  41. west larry

    anyone know who’s starting for the reds today?

    • west larry

      Stoudt is starting for the reds. better score a ton of runs!

    • Jim Walker

      +10000. This is the only way to look at things.

  42. Pete

    Today’s lineup is posted, and India gets a much deserved day off. And yes, Benson is in the lineup. With the exception of Senzel, batting ninth, this line it looks very strong. Let’s find a way to take two out of three.

  43. VaRedsFan

    Nice lineup today.
    I’d like to flip flop Steer and Elly

    1 Friedl CF

    2 McLain 2B

    3 Steer 1B

    4 De La Cruz SS


    6 Votto DH

    7 Benson LF

    8 Stephenson, T C

    9 Senzel 3B

    • Mark Moore

      That’s a solid line-up and defensively very good. Of course, you can’t defend against balls hit into the seats … 😛

    • Indy Red Man

      I like it. Swap out Senzel for CES and they could be more relentless then Atlanta down the road. Steer and CES could be like Kris Bryant/Zobrist and float around and keep guys fresh while providing depth

      • Jim Walker

        Yes on CES and scuttle to 3rd catcher plan to get a RH hitting real OF on the roster while they are at it.

  44. Pete

    Levi Stoudt is today’s SP. I don’t even see where they have a choice.

  45. Pete

    I can’t see how the Reds avoid making some kind of deal for a starting pitcher. The guy doesn’t even really need to be serviceable just someone with an arm that’s not aching.

    • Steve Schoenbaechler

      Quite easy. I used this example before. . .

      I trust Krall is going out to shop for groceries. But, he can’t find any grocery store, at least one that’s open; they are all closed. He’s looking everywhere. He finally finds one who is open, but they aren’t selling the food Krall needs. After so long, Krall finds another store selling the food that Krall needs, but they are asking for a lot of money.

      So, Krall goes back to Papa Bob, because last winter, Papa Bob just did a “clean the house” of all the expensive food. Krall confirms this new find with Papa Bob; Papa Bob turns it down.

      After so long, Krall finds another store selling the food that Krall needs. But, this club is more into bartering. They are also asking for 1/3 of all Krall’s food he has stored for the future. Krall says no to them. Krall tries to convince them, “Will you take our 2nd string SS and our struggling player on the big club for your successful starting pitcher?” The grocery store says no.

      Lesson? So many people think trading someone or trading for someone is so easy. But, it isn’t. Because there is a 2nd party involved. Using the comparison:

      People are simply talking, “Go get some groceries.”

      There has to be a store open.
      That store has to be selling what you want.
      That store has to sell you what you want at the price you want.
      Or, you can attempt to barter with the store. Are you really going to give them 1/3 of all the food you ever have in the future for one load of groceries now?

      • RedlegScott

        I’m guessing if we dangle some top prospects other than CES, we’ll get some store owner’s attention. Marte, for example. The question is whether it’s worth it or not? The site seems to be divided between win now or win later. I’m on the side of the former because if these guys made the playoffs, I see no reason they can’t go far if the starting rotation regains it’s feet and if we add a closer like Chapman. In my mind, their chances are as good as anyone’s due to the solid nature of the offense. It’s a question of pitching and whether to pay the price to get it done. I’m sure Krall is doing his shopping due diligence to find put what might be done.

      • greenmtred

        I’m not convinced that we can’t win now without trading Marte or other top prospects. We have injured pitchers coming back. Ashcraft had a bad day, but his velocity was back to normal in his first start off the IL. His whole period of ineffectiveness is still a small sample size, particularly for a young pitcher.

      • RedlegScott

        OK, green, Ashcraft deserves more of a chance to recover. However, Greene is a question mark with his recurring hip injury, and Lodolo is out. In addition to keeping our fingers crossed with Ashcraft, we’d better come up with something. Hopefully Stoudt will do well today.

      • greenmtred

        They are questions, Redleg. But really, a pitcher we trade for would be a question, too. I’m so torn by this that the only way I can resolve it for myself is to trust Krall. Not so hard to do as the evidence accumulates.

  46. William

    Marte is going to be another good Reds player. He should not be traded. He is their future third baseman.

  47. Willaim

    India will eventually be traded. I like India. I am just saying, but It will not be this year.