Andrew Abbott isn’t perfect, after all. He finally allowed a run in the big leagues. Three of them, in fact, all on solo home runs. But he also struck out 10 batters in his 6-inning quality start. The Reds trailed 3-0 entering the 5th inning but as they’ve done frequently, never gave up and battled their way back. After tying the game in the 5th it stayed tied until the 8th when Jake Fraley crushed what turned out to be the game-winning 2-run homer. The sweep of the Rockies was completed and Cincinnati’s win streak stayed alive at 11 in a row.
| Final | R | H | E |
|---|---|---|---|
| Colorado Rockies (29-48) |
3 | 6 | 1 |
| Cincinnati Reds (40-35) |
5 | 9 | 0 |
| W: Gibaut (8-1) L: Bard (3-1) SV: Farmer (2) | |||
| Statcast | Box Score | Game Thread | |||
The first batter of the game put the Rockies in front as Brenton Doyle hit his 5th homer of the year. Colorado added to their lead in the 2nd inning when Elehuris Montero hit another solo shot off of Andrew Abbott to extend their lead to 2-0.
Elly De La Cruz led off the bottom of the 2nd inning with a single. He then attempted to steal second base, but Jake Fraley hit a fly ball into right field that was caught and turned into a double play as De La Cruz could not get back to first in time. Joey Votto was hit by a pitch after that and then Tyler Stephenson singled, but Will Benson grounded out to end the inning that saw two singles and a hit batter lead to no runs in a squandered opportunity for the Reds.
The Rockies picked up another run in the top of the 4th inning with another solo home run – this time off of the bat of Randal Grichuk. After not allowing a run in his first three starts, Abbott gave up three home runs in the first four frames on Wednesday afternoon.
Cincinnati got the offense going again in the bottom of the 5th inning. Joey Votto was hit by a pitch that he may have stuck his elbow out over the plate on, but the umpire didn’t call it that way and Votto trotted down to first. Tyler Stephenson followed with a single and then Will Benson worked a 7-pitch walk to load the bases.
That would lead to a pitching change for the Rockies as they brought in Matt Carasiti to face off against Luke Maile. After a 5-pitch at-bat it was Maile coming out the victor as he singled into center and played Joey Votto and Tyler Stephenson. TJ Friedl followed up with an RBI single of his own to bring Will Benson in and tie the game up. Spencer Steer struck out for the first out of the inning. That brought Jonathan India to the plate. He battled for seven pitches, but took the final pitch for a called third strike. TJ Friedl broke for second, but India thought he took ball four and began to walk to first base. The throw went to second, and Luke Maile took off for the plate and appeared to score as the catcher couldn’t come up with the throw. But the home plate umpire called for interference on India and it turned into an inning ending double play.
Andrew Abbott came out for the top of the 6th inning and he struck out the side. That gave him 10 strikeouts on the day without a walk and 88 pitches. That would be his final inning, with Cincinnati turning things over in the 7th to Lucas Sims in a tie game. He made easy work of the frame, picking up two strikeouts and needing just nine pitches to complete the inning.
Ian Gibaut took over for Cincinnati in the top of the 8th and gave up a leadoff single to Harold Castro. Austin Wynns squared up to bunt and Gibaut’s pitch came up and in, with Wynns making contact and bunting it foul, but in the process Wynns bat came backwards and hit him in the face. He remained in the game after a quick visit from the trainer. He bunted at the next pitch and this time popped it up to Luke Maile, who caught it with his bare hand for the out. Mike Moustakas then entered the game as a pinch hitter. Gibaut struck him out and then did the same to Brenton Doyle to end the top of the inning.
In the bottom of the 8th inning Elly De La Cruz got things rolling in the 8th inning with a 1-out double. Jake Fraley took the next pitch and planted it in the right field seats for a go-ahead 2-run homer that gave Cincinnati a 5-3 lead. Tyler Stephenson tried to keep the line moving with a 2-out single, and he was replaced on the bases by Matt McLain. Will Benson and Luke Maile followed up with walks to load the bases. TJ Friedl, though, would strike out on a pitch that everyone except the home plate umpire thought was high, and the game headed to the 9th inning.
Buck Farmer took over on the mound for Cincinnati in the 9th looking to hold onto a 2-run lead.
Key Moment of the Game
Jake Fraley’s 2-run blast in the 8th inning that broke a 3-3 tie.
Notes Worth Noting
11 wins in a row is a lot of wins in a row.
Elly De La Cruz had two more hits on the day and is now hitting .321/.387/.536 through the first 14 games of his career.
Lucas Sims lowered his ERA to 2.60 with his perfect inning of work.
Ian Gibaut may finish the season leading the league in wins if he keeps things going at this pace – he now has eight of them.
Buck Farmer earned his second save of the season and lowered his ERA to 2.48 on the year.
Up Next for the Cincinnati Reds
Atlanta Braves vs Cincinnati Reds
Friday June 23rd, 6:40pm ET
TBA vs Luke Weaver (1-2, 6.47 ERA)
Great game, Reds! That’s 11. Pitching good all the way around. Clutch hitting early and late. (WTG, Fraley!) Who’s starting against the Braves? I saw “to be determined.”
Only 8 other teams in Reds history have had winning streaks of 11 games or longer. Four of those teams played before the turn of last century, pre-1900. It is the longest winning streak the Reds have had in 66 years. Enjoy this. It does not happen very often. Free CES!
Yes! Free CES!
No place to play. For DH / 1B / 3B the Reds have Votto, Stephenson, Steer, Senzel, De La Cruz, and India already.
Free CES with an equal or greater value CES! 😉
Yes, there has to be a place for a guy who may be the best hitter the Reds have in their system.
He plays outfield too. 🙂
A certain someone is normalizing to his 2023 stats after a great first game. There is, or should be, a spot for CES
He does NOT play OF.
Sure he does. He’s played RF and LF within the past week. He many not be great but’d he’d get better and we’d get his bat in the lineup.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/player.fcgi?id=encarn000chr NO he’s doesn’t.
He’s played 193 games in minor leagues. Of those, 1 game in LF. 1 game in RF.
Do the math. He’s a corner INF and DH.
Yeah Oldtimer. I know that and understand what you mean. The point is that he’s recently been working out in the outfield in order to have a better chance of getting called up soon. I’m sure the more he plays the better he’d be. The time I saw him play out there he looked fine.
Correct, currently CES does NOT play outfield. However, in MLB CES IS going to play outfield.
He may play some games in OF this year. He will be 1B / 3B / DH in his MLB career. He is NOT an OF. And MLB is not the place to learn it.
Read Doug Gray’s reply/comments to a similar ? on the Q&A section today.
Time will tell. If his bat plays well enough it doesn’t matter if he is an outfielder, if that is the only open spot he will play outfield in MLB. Manny Ramirez played a ton of outfield for crying out loud and he indeed was NOT an outfielder.
Just my 10 cents to go along with your 10 cents and Doug’s 10 cents.
Beating the poor teams was something previous teams, even the good ones, usually struggled with. This team is doing that in spades. When winning series would qualify as great, they are dropping sweeps on the poorer teams this year.
And a recent sweep on last years champion Astros.
Last time reds won 11 in a row was 1957 and Gus Bell was on that team.
I remember the excitement in ’57, but not the details. It’s hard to imagine that they will sweep the Braves but, of course, what has already happened was hard to imagine just a little while ago. I hate to confess my lack of confidence in Luke weaver.
Weaver against the Braves in GABP is a recipe for disaster, but who knows?
After most Reds games are over, I go back and re-examine the box scores in detail.
Stats of note today for me are: Abbott had 10 SOs but gave up 3 solo HRS. Reds pitching had 15 total strikeouts. And, Reds pitchers gave up NO WALKS today!
Finally, the Reds left 8 men on base (down from their usual double-digit LOBs) and were 3 for 7 with RISP!
Result? Another come-from-behind win and “The Streak” grows to 11 games!
Get some well-deserved rest Redlegs! Especially the bullpen!
That pitching line stood out to me as well – no walks from pitchers. Bullpen was fantastic again. Go Reds!
Rake’s Laser Beam Homer Seals the Deal
There, I fixed the headline 😛
If this team taught us anything on this streak, it’s to NEVER GIVE UP!!!
Abbott pitched very well for 6 innings. Frankly, I think we’d take that kind of performance for every outing. The man doesn’t nibble and still was pitch efficient. Not losing and getting the QS was a solid performance in my book. Kept the boys in the game.
For those familiar with the Star Trek parody movie Galaxy Quest, starring Tim Allen, the motto of the crew was “Never Give Up, Never Surrender”!
That motto applies equally well with this Reds crew! I like to call them the Cardiac Kids ’cause they are killin’ this old Reds fan!
Great movie!
There was a lot made of removing Abbott after 6 innings on a low pitch count.
I’m going to side with the coaches decisions on this one.
Abbott pitched 112 innings last year.
What are we looking at for his ceiling this year?
145-150?
He’s already at 77 innings this year.
At about 6 innings per start, that only leaves about 12 more starts this year.
I have no idea what their plans are for him and the innings limits crunch.
Tough decisions are coming.
Who wants to introduce a plan?
Cut him to 5 inning starts? That might gain him 3 more starts, but the bullpen will end up paying that tax.
5 innings is one idea but they need a guy in the bullpen who can pitch 2-3 innings. I guess they are taking it super cautious with Sims due to his injury history. I think Ashcraft might become a bullpen candidate if he struggles again as a starter. Some scouts predicted he would be a bullpen arm. I would prefer him in the rotation and Weaver moved to the bullpen.
We already have guys called middle relievers who can pitch two or three innings. For unknown reasons, coaches are not utilizing them in this fashion. They prefer that after only 10 or 12 pitches they are yanked. It’s a topic worth a story.
They have used guys for 2 innings, but I agree that it’s uncommon. A reason I can see is that this pattern of use probably increases the number of RP’s available for any given game. It also may have to do with the specific pitchers. Whatever the reason, the bullpen has been one of the most effective in baseball.
I have a feeling that we’ll be seeing a couple of call ups, a couple coming off the IL and a rental coming soon.
I’ve got an idea, just let him throw as long as he feels good. You know, like they used to do with pitchers. I see no evidence that this babying pitchers from one year to the next, from one game to the next is benefitting them. Pitchers seem to go down as much as they ever have. What is he, 23 years old? I’m sure he could double his innings and be just fine. Just like the magic 100 pitch count (90 with Bell); nothing suggests this is benefitting MLB pitchers.
I don’t disagree Chris. I’ve never been a fan of pitch and innings limits.
But that is where we are in this era.
My question is why do guys in this era have so many limits? There are more injuries than ever with innings limits and pitch counts. Guys are throwing harder, but ERA’s are through the roof. So maybe max effort isn’t the way to go. Maybe 1 inning per pitcher is not the way to go. Maybe 100 max effort pitches is not the way to go. The current way is not working. (based on injuries and ERA’s).
Sooner or later some team is going to break away from the norm, and figure out a better way.
Well, with me, like with Bell, today, there shouldn’t have been any reason why Abbott couldn’t have come in for one more out. And Sims get one more out. And Ian get one more out. That way, we get Farmer one more day of rest. And, if we had to, all of them are probably still available for a game tomorrow.
Max effort may not be the way to go; the hitters seem to adjust to higher velocity pretty quickly, so it could be seen as a one-sided race to the bottom. There is probably a physiological limit to how hard a human can throw. But in the meantime, this situation–injuries and low pitch counts–is universal. The other factor is the third-time-through-the-order concern. Before somebody–because they surely will-calls it a hoax or dogma, look at the stats. It’s real enough. The thing I don’t know is whether this has always been true and not realized, or wasn’t true years ago. Maybe hitters can’t adjust to pinpoint control as readily as they can adjust to increased velocity.
In 1968 Bob Gibson was 22-9 with a 1.12 ERA. How he lost 9 games is a mystery to me. His innings pitched per start that year : 7, 7, 9, 9, 12, 11, 8, 9.2, 8, 8, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 11, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 10, 8, 9, 8, 8, 9, 9, 9, 9 . That just blows me away….
Old-timer – you do the math. In 1971 Baltimore Orioles had 4 twenty game winners. They had a combined 70 ‘Complete games. 70!
Great win in spite of some of the worst home-plate umping I’ve seen this year. Can’t wait to see his scorecard tomorrow.
But the Reds prevailed! Glad they’re getting a much-needed off day tomorrow.
It’s all Mark’s fault! He’s supposed to be monitoring this situation and reporting the most heinous of umpiring back to the league office!
My e-mails keep getting blocked and they won’t return my phone calls
My sense of the umpire was that his misses were more quality than quantity. By which I mean: I didn’t feel like he missed an unusually high percentage of balls and strikes, but some of his misses were among the worst we’ve seen all year, and a few of them changed the outcome of at-bats in key situations, making them even more memorable.
Anecdotally only … Chumpire scorecards don’t appear to mean diddly squat. So much of the same stuff from the same guys game after game. It appears there is zero accountability to improve on garbage calls like today.
Were do you find umpire scorecards to review?
I see them on the bird app. Let me see if I can see a website link.
https://www.umpscorecards.com
There may be others besides this one – not an endorsement!
Agreed. Was not this umps best day.
Or maybe it was.
11 in a row and I hit both parlays w Jake’s laser. Abbott closed strong and the pen was nails as usual. If they ever cut a catcher it wouldn’t be Maille if it was my decision
Yes, I think Maile is way too good to be cut. If they are truly happy with Robinson as the starting catcher if Stephenson gets hurt, then they can trade Maile if it’s for a really nice haul. Casali can’t catch 5x a week at his age. I believe Robinson can elect free agency at any moment so he may not be the best insurance piece if the team can’t keep him on the 26 man roster. Eventually some other team might sign him.
It’s hard to give up key guys for the future if you’re Detroit or the Chisox because they’re still somehow within 3-4 games of 1st?
Overall I think the Reds FO is turning a corner with all the kids and cutting Myers. I think they’ll do something and that might be enough. Is it possible to make a trade without mortgaging the future.
Maile has a .243 BA, Casali .159 BA no contest imo. Also Casali is getting the Greene guru label, but really Maile has caught him very well. Stephenson doesn’t catch Greene very well, but that’s easy to avoid.
Great win.
Maile’s crucial single was a double play last year with the 2b on the SS side of 2b. Not this year.
I love Votto but I do agree with some in the game thread that Steer at 1b made that great catch and Votto doesnt. Also dont know how to quantitate team chemistry in contributing to winning or the value of experienced catchers calling a game. Either way, Maile is a legit #2 catcher. This just in. Fraley can hit righties.
Amen! The shift really made baseball dull!
Fraley hits righties, Senzel hits lefties=a natural platoon.
Votto doesn’t have to play everyday.
Casali was S. Gray’s catcher too. If the Reds want Sonny back… Plus, Casali has no trade value, whereas Maile must have some. Trading Maile, and acquiring Rortvedt (Yankees’ left-handed hitting catcher at AAA) in a most-likely separate move would be the thing to do. Rortvedt’s left-handed stick will be useful once rosters expand.
Cease and Crochet for Hendrick and Collier?
Big kids get out of school on Friday.
ATL with a 7 game streak of their own.
Sure would like to be going toe to toe with them with Greene, Lodolo and Ashcraft all healthy.
But here we are.
It’s still early in the season.
If the Reds can play them close now, it bodes well for October.
I guess the previous roster move means that Braves will go with RH pitchers the upcoming series, otherwise does not make much sense to carry four LH hitters.
For the better teams (see the upcoming schedule) they need to tighten up the fundamentals. Better today, and some throwback play with Joey taking a HBP and Abbott giving up solo HRs, but still too many baserunning snafus and a few too many swings at 1st pitches.
Abbott with 10Ks, 6IP, and all under 90 pitches is an absolute revelation. I hope the others are paying attention, especially to the 0BB part of his line.
for all of you old timers that were around in the brm era, do these games seem familiar?
clutch hitting , speed, starting pitching keeping the team in the game, not giving up the big innings and rubber arms in the bullpens.
i remember in the 1970’s it was like the other teams were playing in slow motion at times compared to the reds and I am seeing the same thing with this team. are we headed into another Great reds ERA?
YES The NEW Red Machine!!!!!
The original always expected to win. These guys are showing that same confidence
The Big Red Revival
Little Red Corvette….to borrow a line
I don’t see a comparison to the BRM, that team had four or five Hall of Famers, including arguably the best Catcher and second basemen of all time.
I will say this team is probably the second best Reds team in my life time. I would take this team over the 1990 team every time, although that bullpen in 1990 was fantastic.
What I do remember about the Big Red Machine is that it had a lineup where anyone in it was capable of doing something. In that sense, this group of players is similar. It might be interesting to compare Rawly Eastwick to Alexis Diaz…The whole DH thing changes so much of the game…I don’t know if these starters can hold up.
They’re getting to seem familiar, but what I remember most about the 70’s Reds was the feeling that by the start of the 75 season they were beyond expecting to win, they simply knew they would win most games, which they did, and especially the games they had to win. The most justifiably confident team over an extended stretch of 3-5 years I’ve ever seen. Bulls fans are about the only ones who have an argument.
Some individual athletes I’ve seen may exceed that, Secretariat, Edwin Moses, Usain Bolt, Darrell Pace but no teams.
I’d add Jordan – he knew he would win. Tiger Woods at peak knew. And I think (as much as I hate saying this) Joe Montana and the 49ers knew.
There are some similarities. Speed up and down the lineup, adequate starters with one or two studs(Gullet, Greene), deep bullpens. The BRM had, outside of Foster and Pete, amazing defense. I think In one stretch they went fifteen games without an error.
But they played for each other like this team does. Perez was the glue in the clubhouse, and after he was traded it started to unravel. I think India is this team’s glue. It might be tempting to trade him given what’s in the pipeline, but he’ll be sorely missed if they do. This is a golden opportunity to learn from past mistakes.
I agree about India. I do remember reading at the time that Foster was well-rated for the ground he could cover and that he had a good arm. I can’t reflect on the accuracy of that because the only games I saw the BRM play were parts of playoff and WS, and those intermittently, depending upon the weather and the rabbit ears antenna.
@green Marty used to describe a fly ball hit George’s way as “an adventure”.
Well, we can all use a good adventure from time to time.
The next 9 games are against the Braves, Orioles, and the Padres. If they can go 5-4 against these three teams, that would be outstanding. A starting pitcher acquisition is imperative.
That’s the thing I wonder about.
I mean, yes, I believe a starting pitcher acquisition is imperative. But, I wonder just what is the FO thinking.
I mean, for any “rebuild”, I believe an organization should be looking at 2-3 years anyhow, not just 1, in order to get all the prospects you want/need. Then, you start “going for it”.
For instance, only thinking off the top of my head, the Reds got all the IFs they need for the rebuild. This year, trade the pieces like Fraley and Newman away to get the OFs and pitchers you will need. Maybe one more year to put the icing on all of that. Then, you “go for it”.
Well, we can be going for it right now. Will the FO “go for it”? “Pull the trigger”? Then, it’s also harder during the season to get any sort of pitching much less starting pitching. If we go for it, add all the extra pieces necessary to get what we need and not “fully successful”, it could set the entire rebuild back a season or two.
My guessing will be, if we go after anyone, it’s going to be not for the “star name” but for a serviceable pitcher. Maybe a step up from Weaver and Lively. Someone who will give up 3-5 runs but still give you 6 innings each time out.
Yes…this is exactly how I feel. What would Grienke or Lorenzen cost?
YES The NEW Red Machine!!!!!
The original always expected to win. These guys are showing that same confidence
I’m switching what I normally post about.
I’ve simply been impressed by this offense all year, but especially recently. So, I thought I would look at a couple of things. With the starting 8 and the DH we had today, only 1 had an OBP under 300, at 299. Another was about 320. All of the others were above 350, I believe. I can’t remember the last time we could say that about a Reds team.
Or, given the specific game (nothing too hard; a right handed pitcher could be easy enough), we could legitimately put a starting 8 plus DH out there where 8 of their OPS+ would be above 100, the lone one out at 95. I just don’t remember the last time we could say that about a Reds offense.
At least that impresses me.
It impresses me as well!
Weaver against the Braves should take care of the winning streak. Unless David Bell manages him up, lol.
The Reds are now ahead by 1.5 games in late-mid-June, and ownership has recently made a move suggesting they’d actually prefer to keep winning rather than worry about sunk costs. Has any of this ever happened in the history of the world?
I would head to your bunker J. The bengals are one of the best teams in the NFL and perennial Super Bowl contenders. The Reds are playing a brand of baseball that is fun to watch. Reds fans are streaming into GABP. Longest winning streak since 1957. The Apocalypse is near.
1957, the year Red’s fans packed the All-Star voting to put 7 or 8 Redlegs on the starting NL team. I was in St. Louis in those days and it wasn’t popular with Cardinal fans.
This is truly horrifying.
@ TR…good idea. Let’s stuff the ballot box. Friedl,McLain,Elly,Steer,India and Diaz is a shoe-in
Don’t Forget that FC CIncinnati is the #1 team in the MLS!
I ‘d say not too often in Red’s ownership history.
The Braves are starting a 20 yr old tonight that was in low A ball last year. So yes, I think Connor Phillips (22 yrs old) should be starting. Weaver is batting practice so that’s not a hard level to improve upon
Cleveland just fast tracked their top prospect from AA. It can be done.
Eury Perez for the Marlins is 20 and has started 8 games with a 1.00 WHIP.
Wait..What? Reds lost that trade. Phillips was a just a throw in PTBNL.
Winker and Suarez for Williamson, Fraley, Phillips and Dunn.
I remember well Dipoto Mariners saying the PTBNL is going to be a painful one.
I recall the DiPoto quote as well – I think he was foreseeing one of those guys still playing well 10 years after all the others were out of MLB. The agony of the short-term vs. the long-term.
He probably wishes he’d sent Hancock (6th pick overall in 2020), a first rounder I’m sure the Reds would have taken, instead.
Hes a throw in and the GM says it hurts to lose him? What in the world is your point there?
The Reds generally believe it’s better to start a guy with major league experience who’s almost certainly going to be terrible rather than “risk” letting an inexperienced guy give it a try.
Lodolo, Ashcraft, Greene and Abbott would like a word with you.
It’s literally the opposite of what you just wrote. Last season both Greene and Lodolo made the team out of spring training and Ashcraft I guess about 6 weeks later.
And then there’s Abbott and Williamson this year. That’s five rookies put into the rotation in roughly one calendar year.
Let’s try this again. I didn’t say the Reds never allow rookies to start games. Obviously they allow rookies to start games. What I said is that they “generally believe it’s better” to start guys with major league experience even if they aren’t likely to be any good. See, e.g., Mike Minor. The only reason Abbott has started four games for the Reds this year is that the Reds had no healthy starting pitcher with major league experience who could occupy that roster spot. They brought him up because they felt they *had* to, not because they *wanted* to. He’d probably still be in AAA if they had five experienced starters with ERAs under 5.50.
Lots of assumptions packed in there. The entire roster is full of youth and inexperience yet they’d prefer to not play them? Sounds ridiculous to me, all because they arent rushing a 22 yr old from AA.
Seems like a lot of the guys the Reds are bringing up are having success, maybe that speaks to the teams developmental plans actually working. Good chance we see phillips by the end of the season so why bother griping over it. And thats ignoring that they just reeled off 11 wins with their “batting practice” pitchers.
That’s partially true. Yes, they did start the rookies, only because the veteran guys were injured. (Castillo, Minor, and a few others), so what J said was correct.
Exactly. Ashcraft, for example, was in AAA until Overton was unable to pitch one day, and I believe that was only because Minor wasn’t able to pitch yet.
So they used their assets while they were performing and then went with the rookies when they were injured? I dont see how that helps your points at all, seems to me like they value performance instead. Hopefully they keep phillips on a track IMO, his innings are even more of a concern than Abbotts. I want these guys to be on the team and healthy for years, not injured from overuse because the know-it-all fans are anxious and want to rush guys into the ground.
It 100% supports his points. Those rookie pitchers wouldn’t have been up at MLB had it not been for injuries. India wouldn’t have came up if Moose didn’t get hurt. If Moose stays healthy, India would have been buried in the minors and never would have won the ROY. If Myers stayed healthy, Benson would still be buried in the minors instead of breaking out. See how it works now?
NOT True. Where do you get this nonsense?
@J This is just a foolish argument. You are spinning this so that you are right no matter what. Guess what? Gehrig wouldn’t have got a start at 1st base for the Yankees unless Pipp got hurt. That’s normally how it works. A rookie gets an opportunity when one of three things occurs. Veteran gets hurt, traded, or doesn’t perform. Bottom line is that the Reds unlike any other team start rookies all the time, and certainly have done so this year.
Well, since the Reds have no good options on the active roster to start tomorrow’s game, and since they’re always very eager to roll the dice and take a little risk whenever they have a guy pitching well in the minors, I look forward to seeing Connor Phillips starting against the Braves tomorrow. I’m excited to be so wrong and lose this debate so badly.
I think that J is correct on this point. To a point. I don’t recall the exact circumstances, but I don’t think that Hunter Greene was held back until a vet got injured. But I also think that MLB teams being inclined to play vets is not limited to the Reds. Lou Gehrig famously had to wait until Wally Pipp got injured. May have to do with player development concerns, may have to do with resistance to change and the inclination to favor the devil you know. The Reds now start one of the youngest lineups in the game.
2020ball, I’m not sure if you’re aware of how this works, so let me explain something. When a guy pitches in the majors, he isn’t also pitching in the minors. 90 pitches in the minors stresses a guy’s arm the same as 90 in the majors. So it’s quite possible to have a guy pitch at either level without “overusing” him. It’s just a matter of which team is benefiting from his pitches.
India and moose started opening day both on the roster so wrong again. Whatever fantasy you guys think there is where the Reds hate rookies is i guess ingrained into your psyche, forget the facts.
Thankfully they look like theyre keeping Phillips on a more normal path. I wouldnt be surprised at all if he is on the team by the end of the year but now is not the time. And i can 100% assure you its not because of “veteran presence” or whatever you think it is.
Also a pitch count and innings limits are far easier to execute in the minors. Im not interested in him coming up just so we can tax our already overused bullpen.
Lost in this, what if he comes up and struggles? Now we are square one and we jettisoned a “veteran” so we have no fallback plan. Make sure he’s ready for crissakes.
Ashcraft doesnt even make your point, when he was called up the quotes from the Reds were it wasnt a spot start and he very likely would stick on the team DESPITE all the guys coming off the injured list soon after. Whatever narrative yall are trying to build, its just plain wrong.
Greene started the sixth game of 2022, so he wasnt held back at all. Injuries to Castillo and Minor may have played a factor but theres nothing i can find that says that was the reason. Looks to me like he simply made the team out of ST. Im sure i can keep going, any other anecdotes?
2020, this is a rather weird argument. My point is that the Reds prefer to use guys with major league experience, even if those guys haven’t given them any good reason to think they’re decent major league pitchers. A recent example of this is Luke Weaver. They prefer to use guys like Luke Weaver even when they have potentially better pitchers in the minors, such as Connor Phillips. Maybe they’ll prove me wrong by bringing up Phillips and letting him take Weaver’s place against the Braves, but I don’t think they will, and neither does anyone else. If you want to argue they’re smart to let Weaver go out there again and again and again, go right ahead, but all you’re doing is making my point.
I highly disagree that Phillips is better because i dont think its smart to rush him. Whatever, youre point was to say they like terrible pitchers for some reason but its just pointless hyperbole and poorly said. Weaver isnt pitching because of phillips, its because they have no depth and a bunch of injuries. Im glad theyre treating him like a prospect and not being desperate. Use weavers start like a bullpen game if youre so concerned with his performance, or make a trade or waiver claim.
The Reds are winning… i have no idea if youre just ignoring that but stick to the plan thats working. Deperate callups in June are a pointless waste of their already thin depth.
I’m glad you agree with my point that the Reds prefer sticking with guys who have major league experience rather than taking risks with career minor leaguers. Luke Weaver’s last three starts: he’s gone 5 innings, 4.2 innings, and 3.2 innings and given up 15 earned runs. For the season his ERA is 6.47 and he’s averaged about 5 innings per start. His ERA last year was even worse (6.56) as a reliever. He has one win this season in 11 starts. If that doesn’t count as “terrible” I guess I don’t know what a terrible starting pitcher would look like. Most guys with ERA of 6.47 don’t remain in the starting rotation of a team trying to make the playoffs. And the fact that the Reds would prefer to keep running him out there every fifth games because the guy in AA might not be ready for the majors, so it might be a “risk” to bring him up now, is *exactly* the point I was making. We agree about that even you prefer to think we don’t.
The reds already have Abbott and Williamson in it, so what youre is just flat out wrong. re-read your comment if you wish, the rotation is in shambles and youre ready to commit prospect suicide because you wanna complain about a winning team some more. I said it and others here said it, sign a starter before the season and they balked because of the Bally’s debacle. Love it or hate it, Phillips isnt ready. Please dont call him up.
Haha, typos abound.
*Abbott and Williamson are in the rotation. I could end the argument with that alone.
*The Reds forgot the rotation this offseason, a number of us were very concerned
I have no response to your fallacious argument about calling up Phillips for the Braves. Ill leave it at that.
I’m glad you agree with me that the Reds prefer to stick with a guy they KNOW is a bad starter rather than take a risk by calling up a guy who’s pitching well in AA. It seems you’ve been arguing with me (in two different places under this post, actually) just for the sake of arguing. Some people seem to enjoy doing that sort of thing.
I think Connor Phillips should at least be promoted to AAA at this time. Like Andrew Abbott, give him a few turns at AAA and see if he continues to be a dominant pitcher.
IF the Reds did that now, Connor might be called up sometime in the first week of July. It seems that the International League (AAA MiLB that the Bats are in) is a place where a lot of runs are scored. Most teams have pretty strong offenses. So if Connor takes a couple of turns in AAA and still looks good, then…..why not?
Looking closer at Connor Phillips’ numbers in AA this season:
For the month of April, a 4.00 ERA, 8 BB’s in 18 IP, 30 SO
For the month of May, a 3.63 ERA, 13 BB’s in 22.1 IP, 40 SO
for the month of June (so far) a 2.28 ERA, 3 BB’s (!) in 23.2 IP, with 38 SO
So yes, he is likely “turning a corner” in baseball jargonese. Not watching the games, but probably better location, and a LOT fewer Bases – on – balls.
I am amazed at how good the bullpen has been. I didn’t think they would be bad this year, but even more so I didn’t think they would be great. Hope it continues.
And Abbott has been just awesome!
Krall flipped the roster and now has young talent every where and more on the way.Whats not to like?Playing time old guy vs young guy no longer exists cause whomever plays is a young guy trying to earn a job and make a name for himself.Reds are just out there having fun and its catching on like wild fire.Sure they will struggle some but the future is so bright and these young guys expect to win and play like and act like it.Vet privlege nope the money plays nope so long Myers older average at best players nope station to station baseball nope.Whats not to like?Bell?Not my choice to be the manager but who cares Reds are winning and with young guys.
Frankly Krall had done an amazing job assembling this team. He’s been great with trades. Having someone like EDLC pan out also highlights how much better the Reds have been in the international market. For awhile they didn’t seem to care about it at all except for established Cuban players.
Exactly. There’s a clear delineation from the decisions to improve scouting, especially in Latin America, and the team that’s on the field right now. That strategy is paying off.
The Reds need very few additional parts to be complete this team. A few of those parts are injured and will be back around mid season. If KC is reasonable, Chapman makes a ton of sense. And maybe a durable starting pitcher to bridge the injuries. A long-man reliver might also help but that might be one of the displaced starters when everyone returns.
What I don’t want is for the Reds to sell the entire farm and shorten this multi year window. This crop of players needs a long window and the more chance they have, the more likely they get a WS.
Louisville was 12 games over .500 in May alone! Yes, what’s not to like! (Louisville took off once EDLC and CES joined the roster. Since McLain, Hopkins, Abbott, and EDLC were called up, Louisville’s not so hot.)
Wasn’t able to see the end of the game. Glad you all were able to pull out the win without me. haha Good job. 😉 Eleven in a row. smh 🙂
It was 100% us….and maybe some Fraley 😉
With Fairchild down, what’s the outfield plan against LHers?
Or are none on the short term horizon?
Steer-Friedl-Senzel?
Anyone have any idea what Benson’s minor league splits are? We know Fraley can’t really hit LHPs. Do we know how Benson does?
Cook up an injury to get Fairchild back up without the 10 day wait? Or they have Ramos (switch hitter) and Hopkins (RH bat) on the 40 man, although Hopkins would have to be an injury call up too for the next 4-5 days. Ramos though could replace an optioned pitcher immediately if they were willing to go back to 12 pitchers.
No team would do that come on.
Most likely, with Newman as DH.
I keep thinking they are going to bring CES up.
11 in a row! Sweep Atlanta and it ties the Reds longest ever. Though Nightengale’s tweet about the Big Red Machine never winning 11 is a bit of hyperbole. BRM went to the World Series 3 times winning twice. These guys are fun but they are a long way from winning a World Series
Beats the hell out of last year. Let’s go Reds
Im going Reds Braves Saturday.
Let’s support these players.
Yes it does. Hope you catch a win @OS
@Old-school,I’ll be there Friday and Saturday.
Warm ’em up this weekend.
I’ll carry the torch next weekend, as I’m flying in for the Padres on 6/30 – 7/1
Get a proven SP or two and they’re as good a bet as anyone right now. (And that’s not even accounting for when/if the “big three” are all healthy.) The offense is there and has another major piece waiting in AAA. The bullpen has five pitchers that can be relied on in key situations (Diaz, Young, Sims, Farmer, and Giabaut). If you add another SP or two, Weaver, Lively, and/or Ashcraft could get bumped to the pen to give Bell a long man for when the starter struggles.
“BRM went to the World Series 3 times winning twice.”
4 times buddy if you’re counting all of the 70s. 🙂
@Melvin, you’re right. I didn’t count the 1970 series. It was before the Morgan trade that I think of as the birth of the BRM. That and I was freshman in high school. The school had set up TVs around the hallways so we could catch the games between classes, etc. Every time you checked in, it was one Brooks did this or Brooks did that. He had a phenomenal series but boy it was a downer.
Depends on how you count them. As there is no year 0, some call 1970, for example, the 10th year of the 60’s decade. Seems odd, but makes sense.
I can understand how one would not call them the Big Red Machine until Morgan arrived. For me it’s an even narrower window. I personally only count the Big Red Machine in existence as long as the Great Eight was on the team. Speaking of the Great Eight from May of 75 to October of 76, including playoffs, they only started together 88 times. Their winning percentage together was awesome. Sorry I don’t remember what it was. Correction 🙂 They were 69-19. 🙂 78% winning %. 🙂
@jmb, huh? Who would call 1970 part of the 60’s. I guess Prince should have made his song 2000 instead of 1999. 🙂 Just giving you a hard time; it’s easy to be giddy when the Reds are winning this much.
Sparky took over in 1970 – Rose, Perez and Bench were already veterans. Concepcion was a rookie, and some of the pitchers were there. That’s the start of the BRM. 6 playoffs in the 70’s, 4 WS, coulda/shoulda been 5 (1973).
Different era, different game.
Doesn’t matter they didn’t win 11 in a row. This team has, and no one is comparing them to the BRM that some on here can’t move on from. No one said they are close to winning a world series.
Bottom line is this team has won 11 games in a row. Something the team from 70’s didn’t do!!
If Marte plays in left and Rodriguez plays in right in a couple years (or India in left and Marte at third), this team may very well be better than the BRM.
Another way we can see the “next test”. . .
We caught the Pirates. We caught the Brewers. So, first in the division.
Now, in case we get caught, it would be good to secure a WC spot. For that, we need to catch the Dodgers. We are a game behind them.
The way I look at it the bullpen basically covers about half of the game on average. Phillips could very well be the starter we’re looking for and probably better than any we could get in a trade. Most likely the “Big Three” will be back at some point giving us a boost in that way. Instead of looking for a starter and giving up a whole lot of prospects why not instead take a pretty good bullpen and make it a VERY GOOD bullpen. It most likely would cost a lot less and possibly be just as good. We use it EVERY GAME…A LOT. Chapman please.
A persuasive argument, Melvin. The question remains: what would it cost?
At the end of the day, the Reds need to pull the trigger and go for it this year. Next year’s success is not guaranteed. The other four teams in the division are almost certainly going to improve this winter. Look at the Mariners and Phillies- two of baseball’s hottest teams last year, both went to the postseason, and both are currently out of the postseason picture for this season. If the Reds have the opportunity to improve so they can run away with the division, they need to take it.
Very sensible post.
Phillips is likely to be as dependable as anyone the Reds get in trade this time of year without going full on Latos.
Trading for an innings nibbler elf will likely not be any better.
Bolstering the bullpen is acknowledging the reality.
A wiser investment now and going forward.
At the same time, if the opportunity presents itself for a Latos-like acquisition, why not take it? The rotation is the weakness of this club. Acquiring a Latos type of pitcher would mean getting a top of the rotation guy who’s under control for at least two or three seasons after this one. As much promise as Lodolo had last year and early this year, he’s also missed major chunks of time on the IL in his first two seasons. Hoping he returns in August, stays healthy, and leads the rotation to the promised land might not be the best choice by the front office.
A rental ace would be an even cheaper acquisition and get the job done this season. If the Twins fall apart over the next month, could the Reds trade for Gray? What about Stroman from the division rival Cubs (unlikely, I know)?
I’m so in agreement. The Royals have two back end relievers that they want to move as a bundle. I personally think this team can get by without going after another starter, and can afford to wait out youth and injuries. Add two bullpen pieces and that would be enough. That is of course, unless we can pick up an ace.
We know the Mariners’ GM is among the most active in baseball regarding making trades. We also know the team is a disappointment this year and behind three winning teams, though catching fire certainly isn’t impossible.
Would it be crazy to think Krall could find a way to trade for Castillo and the four-plus years remaining on his team-friendly contract? The Reds would get an ace starting pitcher under team control (who happens to love the city). It would fill the biggest need on the roster. The question would be the cost in prospects. Would Arroyo and Marte get it done? Or would it require more?
Definitely worth the thought. Four years of LC would be worth some prospects.
No thanks. Chances are, that contract will not age well.
Castillo is making Bieber money ($10 mil.) this season, but then he goes to Votto money for the next 5. (Bieber too will be up there next season, then he’s a free agent.) Cease is at $5.7 mil. and is a free agent after ’25). J. Gray is making the league minimum, and he’s controllable thru ’27; but there’s some risk involved, as he’s never pitched as well as he is this season. S. Gray has the best numbers of the above, is making under $13 mil., and is a true rental, but could most likely be re-signed for less money than Castillo will be making.
I don’t think so. It took marte and arroyo when he was younger and cheaper. Both of those prospects have also increased their value from when they were traded
Didn’t the Reds get Marte in the Castillo trade?
What? Trade him back?
Would love to see Louie Castle back, but this would be kind of nutty.
With Ray gone for the season, Gonzalez gone for a month at least, Flexen and Voo (the second starter they’ve called up straight from AA) not performing, and Gilbert not doing as well as he did last season, LC won’t be traded. In fact, they may be looking to add a starter. Voo will go down when Gonzalez returns, but they’ll still be holding their breath that they suffer no further injuries.
We need CES & AC asap!
The most under appreciated player goes to Will Benson. What was Cleveland thinking letting him come here? I think the day will come where he plays against lefties if Bell gives a chance. His on base percentage since his return is over .400.
Good luck and good scouting on the Reds’ part.
Yep, he could be the next Brandon Phillips – traded him for next to nothing and becomes a fixture in the lineup for a long time. The potential seems to be there.
Good call wkuchad! So many are focused on the ghosts of bad trades past that they forget the times when the Reds got a guy for a song (and the Reds sang due to Philips being at second for 11 seasons.)
Another great win for the Reds.
Not a fan of letting 21 yr olds swing 3-0. Really don’t like anyone doing it, but Joey has jumped on one here and there. Arenado did it to Lively recently too, but Elly is too valuable on 1st. He causes too much havoc even with India on in front of him
i agree, i think you have to at least consider moving EDLC To the leadoff spot. He would probably score pretty much every time he got on base
Ha!
Agreed, he’s almost doing that already.
Credit to him and to the team.
He’s remarkable.
Most interesting Red since when Castillo arrived with that changeup.
His speed plays anywhere in the lineup, im completely unconcerned about where he is in the order as long as its one of the top 4 spots
The talent of EDLC is something else. I’ve never seen a player who can rather routinely get a base hit out of an infield ground ball.
Batting fourth, he leads off an inning from time to time. I don’t like small sample size, but remember a game recently when he lead off an inning twice. It would be interesting to see how often the actual lead-off hitter leads off an inning in a game. On average, of course.
Welsh – “We hit the lottery with De La Cruz”
A hitters’ odds of success is much higher with zero or one strike versus two strikes. Unless it’s a below average hitter, I would also give them the green light 3-0 (unless current game situation dictates otherwise).
I green light him and maybe a few others. Not everybody.
The green light should come with the caveat, you must keyhole the pitch location exactly, if you are swinging.
EDLC got a pitch middle-middle and crushed it at 111. I can live with that, despite the result.
Is 2-0 really that much different? Friedl grounded a 2-0 pitch past the 2nd baseman for an RBI single.
I’m starting to understand why CES isn’t on the major league team right now. The problem would be that every time there’s a right-handed starter, it will be literally impossible for Bell to decide which of these nine guys should be out of the starting lineup:
India
McLain
CES
EDLC
Steer
Votto
Benson
Fraley
Friedl
They’re saving Bell from a lot of sleepless nights.
This is a ridiculous claim. Obviously its because there isnt a spot unless they drop Casali, but more importantly its about playing time. Why yall would think it has anything to do with the manager is just plain silly.
My comment wasn’t meant to be taken quite so literally.
Then i fail to see the point of it. David Bell loses sleep over having a good team? I guess its a backhanded insult towards the manager?
Nope. The point of my comment was that if CES were added to this team right now, it would be very difficult to decide which of those nine guys shouldn’t be in the starting lineup against a right-handed starter, because they are all very good hitters and very deserving of a spot in the starting lineup. The part about Bell potentially losing sleep over having to make this decision was meant as a mildly humorous way of expressing this point.
Bell likes to give days off. Every guy gets a day off every eight or nine games. Make for a stronger bench too.
I remember when the Reds had a hard time deciding whether another number 44 should bat cleanup or leadoff. That one worked out pretty well. I’m not sure which way I lean yet??? Probably leadoff but a lineup starting with
Friedl
McClain
India
EDLC
CES
Steer/Fraley
would pack quite a punch.
NO on platooning Steer. I’m not sure why this kid doesn’t get more respect. He reminds me of Sean Casey; he rolls out of bed and hits. I think he only gets better.
A POWERFUL punch indeed. Steer AND Friedl play most every day for me regardless. I think I’m in the camp of India at leadoff.
India
Friedl
McLain
EDLC
CES
Steer
Fraley
Votto
Stephenson
Benson
10 guys with every guy getting a day off every eight or nine games. That’s a lineup that NO pitcher wants to face.
I’ll keep saying this , but I really think the Reds’ best batting order when CES arrives is:
Against RHP:
2B India R
CF Friedl L
SS McLain R
3B EDLC L
DH CES R
LF Fraley L
1B Steer R
C Stephenson R
RF Benson L
Against LHP:
2B India R
CF Friedl L
SS McLain R
3B EDLC R
DH CES R
1B Steer R
LF Senzel R
C Stephenson R
RF Fairchild R
No Votto? or am I missing it, its early LOL
One thing I don’t recall in a long time is depth. Hopkins, Barrero, and now fairchild sent down. I agree CES needs to be up here, however will he get playing time?
Pitching as I know you know is main issue. Good post
I was talking more of the lineup next year, when Votto and Newman are both gone.
If Newman isn’t traded he’s still under control through next season as well. However, I don’t see how he isn’t moved either at the deadline or in the offseason because Marte will be ready
@CI3J, I’m betting that Marte will be on the 2024 opening day roster. He’ll be our best shot at rookie of the year which now helps in the draft.
EDLC, India, McLain, Steer, CES, Reynolds, Marte, Senzel, Friedl, Fraley, Benson, Stephenson, Robinson
Man that 13 is so strong, Robinson is the biggest question mark (absolutely killing AAA), but he’s just a backup C. I’m feeling very optimistic about the future of this team. 23 legit shot at the division, and our team is about to get fortified with more guys like, Marte, Phillips, Richardson, Petty. If we sign the right mix of FA pitchers, look out!
Arroyo>Marte but both will play in MLB but I think Arroyo could be an All-Star. Perennial. Kid has taken off after a slow start, looks like a completely different player from the guy in April. Every facet of his game is strong and he’s only 19 years old. It won’t take but a year or two, and Seattle is going to hate that trade.
The biggest question mark in your post is Matt Reynolds, a 32-year old career utility infielder with a career OPS+ of 71 over 528 MLB plate appearances. I don’t see the Reds choosing to roster him over many other choices.
Hopefully, Marte earns a spot on the opening day roster and has a shot at ROY. If Votto produces, CES may be in the same boat; otherwise, he’ll be playing to early this season for similar consideration. All good problems.
@Pete, Arroyo will be bumping someone out of his way in a couple of years.
@BK, I had a pretty lengthy reply that seemed to not post, but it all boiled down to Newman’s ability to Mash LHP, and his defensive versatility.
@MBS, I could see the Reds retaining Newman to leverage his splits and versatility. I only see Reynolds as AAA depth.
Lol, I always transpose those 2 in my head. Newman is the guy that should have been in my initial post.
Gotcha CI3J,
I like the lineups you posted. Next year could be a dynamic year
I been thinking and I believe you don’t mess with the offense side of the ball right now. The Reds have depth at triple A like I have never seen or can recall. Plus a few players in Double A.
Trading for pitching I believe is a given. Keeping in mind the players up now will be here for awhile so a few prospects have become expendable in my opinion.
Phillips it sounds like is the next man up, however when is the question. One would also assume as mentioned most teams aren’t willing to trade as still in contention. I like many hope Reds can pull a trade with Royals. Bring in Champman and Barlow.
With Ashcraft and Greene coming back and Phillips on the horizon, Reds could trade for a middle of the road type veteran pitcher perhaps with a year of control.
The next two series against better pitcher will I believe tell us more about this offense. In anycase this team is fun to watch/follow.
I think *the* question the FO has to figure out is who they trade for pitching. While it is probably a given the Reds would move Newman and Senzel in a heartbeat for anything more substantial than Class A/ A+ lottery pick for each, neither of those guys are going to bring the pitching they need as package leaders. However, they might help as sweeteners.
So, do the Reds trade from their active roster; do they trade highly ranked prospects? Either way, the Reds and we fans are going to feel some pain. I’ve said before and will stick to it that I think the “Cardinals way” is how the Reds should go. This means identifying somebody on the MLB roster who can head up a package to bring the desired return and also whose production is replaced the easiest from within.
Looking at the Reds RH hitters who do not require an LH batting platoon partner, I think an LH batter who requires a platoon partner makes an ideal candidate. And yes, as I’ve already said, it would hurt. But hey, the Reds traded Bernie Carbo, an LH-hitting platoon player who had a 187 OPS+ vs RH pitching on 444PAs (and even a decent 84 OPS+ vs LH pitching) in 1970; and things worked out well for them from 1972-76.
Votto had a great first game but he looks like he is pressing a bit over the last couple of games. So I think the jury is still out on Votto. If he does not consistently produce then I think he will take himself out of the mix by the All Star Break. Let’s hope he can keep up with the youngsters as his veteran leadership is a major plus.
Well, he’s currently the Reds’ best hitter, per OPS 😉
I don’t listen to podcasts very often, but this one from MLBTR piqued my interest. I played it from about 6 minutes in to catch the tail end of their Pie-Rats discussion and then their impressions of the Wil Myers DFA.
https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2023/06/mlbtr-trade-rumors-podcast-exciting-youth-movements-in-cincinnati-and-pittsburgh-bad-central-divisions-and-the-dodgers-want-pitching.html
What did they say about Myers’ DFA?
They said the Myers signing made solid baseball sense in the off the season; but, sending him on his way also was a solid move given the unexpected speed at which the team has developed in the past 2+ months. Their bottom line was that there was nowhere to play Myers without disrupting the young guys who were getting the job done.
Plus, the Reds are now in a position where they could ill afford to put Myers into the lineup in hopes he would play himself back into form and help them win the division or be flipped at the deadline. Even if Myers should land on his feet and return to a semblance of his prior self, the Reds and their fans should not sweat it because moving him was the right call at the time it was done.
Agree on all accounts.
Thanks Jim!
Besides winning, I was trying to figure out what made this game so much more fun to watch. Reading the comments above, it clicked. Not one walk issued by our pitchers. Please keep this up.
Yep. For all Abbott’s “failure” in giving up runs, he made the Rocks hit the ball. That cuts both ways, but it’s hard to defend against a walk. Balls in play at least give us a chance to get a batter out.
I’m one who isn’t enamored with an abundance of K’s, so this kind of game was exciting to watch and follow.
To me, K’s are awesome when guys are on base. Runners can’t advance, or score, if the batter strikes out.
With the bases empty, quicker outs are a plus, but still, balls in play will lead to occasional BABIP luck, like today with 3 of the 4 hits surrendered went over the fence.
Walks hurt but they hurt big time in GABP.Abbott as you said Mark made them swing and because of that he probably could have gone another inning.Walks for sure run up pitch counts and sometimes punch outs do as well(see Hunter Greene) I like the fact that if and when the BIG 3 return,Abbott seems ready to join them as a young pitcher with major league stuff.Future looks bright with youth on the mound and on the field and if you believe experience makes players even better then watch out for the Reds.Krall has done an excellent job but I don’t expect him to over pay for a starter or a reliever unless the team has control of them beyond this year and next.We shall see.
Joel Luckhaupt stat man tweeted since 1981, reds pitchers age 24 or younger with 10+ K and 0 BB in a game
Andrew Abbott
Hunter Greene 2x
Nick Lodolo 2x
Luis Castillo
Johnny Cueto
Also many Reds and Jon india on the field in pregame with Viking helmets and sword in FC cincinnati colors leading pregame cheers last night to a huge ovation.
Summer 2023 good times.
Things are looking up for Cincinnati’s three professional sports franchises.
Couple notes from what I saw;
> Abbott is a pitcher, not a thrower. Reminds me of Tom Browning – work fast & throw strikes. On one of Rockies homers, he had the hitter on his front-leg – indicating this is a pop-out in most parks.
> I don’t know exit velocity of Fraley’s dinger, but that was a bee-bee.
> Reds taking extra bases is forcing defenses to adjust. Example, Elly stealing 3rd pulls IF in & Stephenson singles thru drawn-in IF. Good baseball.
> Matty Mac is getting under too many pitches lately.
> Watch Benson on a hit. He seems to take 2-3 steps in the batter’s box as he gets started – sorta revving up like George Jetson on the treadmill. His patience is making him into a very valuable offensive weapon – always on base.
A: 108.6 mph for Fraley’s homer.
Team is on a great run! Very excited to see how they do against Atlanta.
Anyone else expecting a major trade before the deadline? I’m not talking about trading prospects for veterans. But only youth for youth.
If a breakdown of the deals Krall has made, the last couple years is analyzed, I think it would blow most peoples mind. Nearly every darn one of them. It’s extraordinary. This being said, I say deal man deal.
Does Nick Krall have a Joe Morgan-type trade in him? I believe so. No way do you trade prospects for rentals!
You can trade prospects for rentals, so long as there not the top 15-20 prospects. Don’t know anything about the Mets farm, but the Naquin deal may become the “how not to do it” from their POV – Better is to trade prospects for a rental and a prospect in return – match up our scouts and lower MiLB coaches against another team’s. Just not yet time to trade a top prospect for a 3-5 year MLB player.
Looking at Hector Rodriguez and Jose Acuna received in the Met trade, it may go down as one the greatest ever:
Acuna – 20 yo at A+ ball: 4-0, 2.45 mm ERA, 1.07 WHIP, K:BB = 49:22
Rodriguez- 19 yo CF at A ball: 312/364/575/939, 11 HR, 9 2B, 8 3B, 8 SB. Maybe the best hitter in the Florida State League.
Tyler Naquin? Plying his trade in AAA for the Brewers.
The Reds potential upside on this trade is sky high as any.
That’s it Pete – I’ve been watching this one since it was made – the return was right between the Drury and Pham trades – Drury a better prospect but Drury has proven to be worth more than Naquin, Pham more of a MiLB filler. Perhaps Hector and Acuna max out in AA/AAA and scouts/staff can determine that with good accuracy, but it seems more likely the Mets simply were pushing for the playoffs and felt, justifiably, that Naquin was a very good piece to add and worth overpaying.
The thing with Rodriguez is no one saw the power that he is now displaying. I believe it’s a game changer as far as his prospect status. We’ll see when the new lists come out but I’m expecting him to rise quite a bit. It’s hard to argue that he isn’t the number one OF prospect in the system.
Yeah neither Rodriguez nor Acuna were really highly regarded as amateurs, but they were the two best performing players on the Mets’ complex league team.
@Pete, per Baseball America’s midseason update, yes, he is now our highest ranked Outfielder.
It would be very hard to find a willing trade partner in a youth for youth trade. Such trades are very rare, because all teams don’t want to be on the short end of the stick trading and receiving young players that may or may not make it big. Each team has the potential to have egg on their face in such trades.
One non-vet youth deal I remember, a few years back, Cubs traded Cashner for Rizzo. I think the Cubs won that but Cashner had an OK career too.
Bottom line, trades involving non-vet, highly touted youth, are very rare in MLB.
I still think a move on Newman & Senzel is the most likely route for the Reds, shooting for OF/P prospects. Otherwise, they are not competing in a good division, i.e., other than the AL/NL Central divisions, trailing the other leaders by 5-11 games. So while Krall has done well, the Reds still need a lot of help to be competitve in the post season.
Not quite right. The current reds team is far different from the one in May and even more so than the one that we saw in April. The current squad right now we don’t really know what the ceiling is but I think it’s much higher than what your estimate here.
Newman, in particular, has more value to Reds than anything they may be able to get for him. Senzel’s value is decreasing by the day. Neither would get much in a trade.
Senzel and Fraley are a really strong platoon for one OF spot. Friedl and Benson are playing like everyday starters. Also, Steer will likely move to the OF at some point. I’m not seeing a need in the OF at this time. That said, I realize we’re still well within the break-in period on all of our rookies.
Like others, I don’t think Senzel or Newman will fetch much in a trade. It’s getting harder and harder to see Senzel as a regular position player. Frankly, Fairchild could start in several outfields and yield league average results–he likely has more value. A team that believes Barrero’s bat will come around would also value him above either Senzel or Newman.
I agree @BK. The problem with Senzel in an OF platoon is that sooner or later he winds up on the IL again. And bottom line, if Senzel/Newman aren’t worth anything to other teams, why are they worth anything to the Reds.
Because theyre helping the team win?
@LDS, a lot of players go on the IL. While Senzel has endured a lot of injuries, I’ve never read (except here) that any of the injuries are related. As the RH part of a platoon with Fraley, he’ll also have much less playing time. Lastly, that’s why depth is important. Having a TJ Hopkins available at AAA is pretty good health insurance for Senzel.
“And bottom line, if Senzel/Newman aren’t worth anything to other teams, why are they worth anything to the Reds.”
Do folks really form opinions based on this type of (il)logic?
I’m really hoping this is meant as a sardonic question.
Still a lot of games and conversations to come.
I don’t know. Think there are a lot of folks out there who think we ought to pick up a couple vet pieces and make a run at the NL Central this year. Assumes we all agree that our starting pitching is inadequate to get us to the finish line. Personally, I am in the camp of getting a couple mid tier starters. Guys like Wade Miley who could give you 8-10 solid starts. Not Jacob DeGrom or some other $30M guy. But guys who you could choose to trade over the winter if you so wish. And yes, I would move youth to accomplish. But select youth who don’t appear to fit in our 2024 plans. Barrero, Senzel, Antone, Santillan, etc. I believe a rebuilder would love to have a couple youth pieces in exchange for a vet with 1-2 years remaining on their contract. We certainly have good youth depth we could negotiate with.
The Red Hot Machine
Updated fWAR
Friedl fWAR 2.0
India 1.6
Fraley 1.2
McLain 1.1 ( a month)
Steer 0.8
EDLC 0.7 ( a few weeks)
Unreal numbers from those 6. Friedl ??? Who called that?
Fraley splits against righties
.304/.391/.522/.913 wRC + 141
Updated fWAR
Friedl fWAR 2.0
India 1.6
Fraley 1.2
McLain 1.1 ( a month)
Steer 0.8
EDLC 0.7 ( a few weeks)
Unreal numbers from those 6. Friedl ??? Who called that?
Fraley splits against righties
.304/.391/.522/.913 wRC + 141
Who called that? Certainly not me.
I thought our outfield would be a real weakness this year and next, but Friedl, Fraley (with a platoon partner), and Benson gives me a lot of hope. I’m sold on Friedl and Fraley. Another month of Benson producing will make me a believer in him too. And Fairchild is a perfect 4th outfielder.
I am for keeping Senzel. He can play several positions and hits left handed pitchers well. I like him on the bench and starting against left handed pitching. He is a good pinch hitter against a left handed pitcher in late innings. Love the way he plays third base. He plays outfield well enough. Keep him. The Reds will not get much in a trade. He can help the Reds win.
The Reds need atleast one free agent starter. I hope the GM trades for Chapman as well. I do follow the Reds top prospects. The top 10 on the list are the ones I am high on. They should not be traded. I would be careful about trading Hines. I know some people are mentioning him. He might turn out to be a good MLB player. However, I would trade him for Chapman. I doubt the GM trades Hines, but he might.
Isn’t Chapman a FA at the end of the season?
Would you trade Hinds for 1/2 year of Chapman?
It doesn’t make much sense to trade for him w/o some longer term deal arranged as part of an overall transaction.
Didn’t they do something like that with Sonny Gray?
Hinds…edit
Watching the Bats right now on Thursday. Stuart Fairchild is not in the line up but is listed as a sub on the MiLB gameday box score.
My recollection is he has 3 days to report. But wondering with the Reds now having a well rested bullpen will some pitcher is going to come up with a hangnail to open the way for Fairchild to be activated for the Braves series. Braves probable on Saturday is a leftie but the other 2 are RH.
Chapman is a ten million dollar pitcher Harry. Do you think the other team is going to trade him for a bad prospect? I have a better appreciation for Chapman than a lot of Reds fans. He could help the Reds make the playoffs. The other team will probably not trade Chapman for Hinds.
Correction: Chapman had a five year $86 million dollar contract with the Yankees, but just has a 3.75 million one year contract with Kansas City this year.
Chapman has a 2.73 ERA. He has 45 strikeouts in 25 innings pitched. He would be a nice addition to a team that is serious about making the playoffs. It will take a good prospect to get him.