1-0. That was the final score of the Cincinnati Reds game on Sunday afternoon. It was a game that they lost. It was also a game that the Pittsburgh Pirates won despite not recording a single hit. That may be the most 2022 Cincinnati Reds thing we’ve seen this year, and we’ve seen a lot of things that could fall into that category.
Losing a no-hitter isn’t something that happens every often. In fact, it was just the 6th time since 1900 that a team had lost a game in which the other team didn’t have a hit. But all six of those games have come since 1964, with the last coming when the Dodgers beat the Angels in June of 2008.
Let’s start off with what Hunter Greene did. The 22-year-old rookie put together his best start in the big leagues. He threw 7.1 hitless innings against the Pirates. He struck out nine batters, and while he did have five walks in the game, two of them came to the final two hitters he faced after he had easily crossed the threshold of his highest pitch count of his career and in any other situation would have long been out of the game.
For the second consecutive game, Greene threw more sliders than fastablls. He also threw just two change ups – his lowest total of the season. The Pirates stacked their lineup with left-handed hitters on the day, with only Ke’Bryan Hayes batting from the right side on the day. Their plan to try and get the platoon advantage, one that actually wasn’t there for Greene who had pitched better against lefties this season, didn’t work. It really didn’t work.
There was a lot to like about what Hunter Greene did on Sunday. It’s hard to really find much negative in there other than the five walks. But one thing a lot of people point to is how manager David Bell handled the final inning for Greene. He began the 8th inning at 103 pitches. That’s not terrible on it’s own. It was already a season high – he had thrown 100 pitches in the previous start – but those pitches were spread out well over 7.0 innings.
The problem was two-fold. First was the fact that when the inning began there was no one warming up in the Reds bullpen according to both the television and radio broadcast. It’s one thing to let Greene go out and start the 8th inning and hope that he can get quick outs and have a short inning. It’s another thing to hope that happens and not have a backup plan ready to go at that point of the game. The only reason Greene was still in the game was because he had a no-hitter going. What if he gave up a hit to the first batter? There’s no reason to still have him in there at that point. But Bell apparently wasn’t ready for that scenario.
Then there’s the problem that played itself out. Greene walked the second batter of the inning. Then the third. His pitch count jumped up to 118, and in a game where the score was 0-0, there was now a runner in scoring position in the bottom of the 8th inning before a move could be made because no one was ready to come into the game to replace Greene. As you know by now, Art Warren came in and walked the bases loaded and the Pirates then scored when the Reds got the desired ground ball, but couldn’t turn the double play to end the inning. That was the only run of the game and it cost the Reds.
However, beyond just the way that played out, there are some questions about letting Greene throw 118 pitches. It’s the most pitches thrown by a pitcher in a single game this season. Hunter Greene is the youngest starting pitcher in the big leagues. He throws harder than any other starting pitcher in baseball. He’s already had Tommy John surgery. Is it fair to question the decision to let him throw so many pitches? Yes, it’s probably a fair question to ask.
But is it fair to drag David Bell over the coals for allowing Greene to throw 118 pitches in this very specific scenario? I will say that no, it’s not. At least not for the pitch count alone. The decisions talked about above regarding how the 8th inning played out that led to the pitch count is an issue. The pitch count alone, however, is defensible.
Cincinnati has today off. They also have Thursday off. Hunter Greene is going to get more rest between starts than usual because of that. That extra day of rest may or may not have played into David Bell’s decision making on Sunday, but it still matters.
“But is it fair to drag David Bell over the coals for allowing Greene to throw 118 pitches in this very specific scenario?”
If Greene develops arm problems this year he will be. You can take it to the bank. No doubt he will be anyway. It wasn’t good management to say the least.
There is absolutely no proof he wouldn’t develop arm injury by throwing 90 pitches. With all the changes to pitch count arm injuries persist if not accelerate.
We dragged Dusty when he wore out arms. And he had a lot more success to pad his resume.
Building arm strength to be able to throw 110-120 pitches is the most desirable.
I have no problem with trying to build a super stud as a pitcher. Not a 6-7 inning guy. I want Scherzer, Verlander, and Halladay types of pitcher….not a Mahle/Castillo type.
I don’t like Bell as a manger, but I loved this decision.
As far as how many pitches should be thrown compared to how many used to be thrown say 30 years there is obviously much debate on. In my way of thinking, in my feeble mind, lol, is not just the number but what kind. That’s kind of the camp that I’m in. For the most part fastballs, whether they be two or four seam, as long as they don’t add extra stress to the elbow or shoulder, mostly just add arm strength. Of course there are limits even to that. The biggest difference to me is not the speed of fastballs that are thrown these days but the speed of the the off speed stuff such as sliders, curve balls, etc. The speed of those pitches has increased too which in turn adds more stress to the elbow and shoulder more than in previous eras. That’s probably the biggest reason most pitchers shouldn’t throw as many pitches these days. As far as Greene the other night it’s my understanding that he was throwing mostly sliders and not near as many fastballs. Take that into account, along with his age and previous TJ surgery etc. There are probably several reasons he should have been lifted earlier in that game. He’s just too valuable to take risks like that for no reason other than beating the Pirates and a possible no hitter. We are after all, in dead last place.
Of course the emphasis on spin rates is a big deal too as far as stress on the arm.
Bell HAD to have someone warming up when the 8th began. No to, is unconscionable. And, Greene should have been lifted once he walked the first batter in that inning.
Agreed. Ok with the pitch count. Not okay with Bell not having the bullpen ready. It’s not the first time.
Now, dont trade Greene!! I bought all the stock on this kid from Day 1. Please. Dont trade him. He’s special.
Thanks for this perspective, Doug. I’m in agreement that the pitch count itself isn’t at the core, but rather how we got there. Also, on one or two of those walks, he kind of got squeezed a bit on the strike zone if memory serves correctly.
The lack of a back-up plan stands out like the proverbial sore thumb to me. And that the back-up plan was Art Warren given the coming days off is a head-scratcher. The 4-pitch walk to load them and then the hesitation by Lopez that could (not definite) have resulted in either a DP or cut down a runner at the plate (less likely) all factor into it.
Stellar outing by Greene. Too bad his contribution to a no-no has a black cloud over it. Kind of like our offense, no?
This team is going to get back: Joey Votto, Jonathan India, Nick Senzel, Jose Barrero, Lucas Sims, and lefty Mike Minor (okay, not sure how much that one matters) and has Graham Ashcraft waiting in case of an injury in the rotation. And Hunter Greene and Nick Lodolo will only get better. They’re going to play a lot of games against the Pirates, Cubs and Cardinals. They’ve been busy identifying who is valuable – Drury, Diaz, Almora – and who is not. I believe this could be a competitive team, this year. So I’m reaaally disappointed by the outcome of this game. It’s the difference between 17 under and 15 under. It’s a series split vs. a third straight series win. It’s momentum heading to Cleveland and Toronto. And maybe most importantly it risks Hunter Greene’s health. Probably not, but maybe so. I’m not often a David Bell detractor but the decisions in this game were terrible. Terrible.
I like this take because it comes from a place of optimism in the remainder of this year.
Anyone who says the decision didn’t risk his health is ignoring basic reality. It is just that, a risk. It wasn’t a risk that needed to be taken. It’s imprudent to run any unnecessary risks to the best pitching prospect this team has seen since at least Hunter Bailey and more likley, Jose Rijo.
Letting him throw 100+ mph risks his health. Considering the number of injuries to pitchers, letting him pitch risks his health. Wouldn’t some of this depend upon how was throwing? Input from his catcher? DJ? It’s true that this was, cosmically speaking, a meaningless game, but if this season has any value it lies in getting young guys like Greene exposure to different situations at the MLB level. It may prove to have been a mistake, in the way that Dusty’s handling of Harang in that relief appearance proved to be. Different situation, though. As I recall, Harang had already had his turn in the rotation and came in for an emergency appearance, and threw harder than usual.
I would not have used art warren, I would have used Diaz. I would have had him at the very least tossing as the 8th opened. However, a No hitter, is something different. I have no problem with bell leaving him out there as long as he did. there was a need for the bats to do something not greene. Regardless what is done is done, I do not think the extra 18 pitches are going to hurt that much,
https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/HOU/HOU196404230.shtml the 1964 game.
I actually remember listening to this game as an 11-year old in bed on a school night.
I heard that game as well on the radio in Florida with the sound going in and out. I was 12 years old.
Thanks for posting this. A lot of good players on both sides. Note attendance and game time. Wonder when the last time a nine inning game went under 2 hours – even if there were no hits.
Kasko and Johnson were Reds before 1964. Key players on 1961 NL pennant winners. Beauchamp was a Red in 1968.
Doug’s thoughts mirror my feelings. I got to a screen to see Greene pitch the 7th and was surprised he was sent out for the 8th. I felt flabbergasted that the pen was just starting to get active during DJ’s mound visit during the 8th inning after the 1st BB.
Greene said in his post game comments, that he was expecting someone (DJ or Bell) to talk to him about the bottom 8th as he sat in the dugout during the top of the inning; but, nobody did. I wonder if he meant that comment as implicit criticism.
I still wonder why the guy with 100mph+ easy gas fastball who has already had a TJ surgery is being turned into a slider pitcher.
I’m all for de-emphasizing the fastball, because the 5 HR game in Milwaukee was a wake up call for the brain trust in charge of pitch calling and sequencing (as it should be for Mahle too). But you can’t reduce him to just two pitches and expect him to have a sustainable career as a starter. He has a good changeup and should’ve used it more yesterday given the lefthandedness of the hitters, especially late when the feel for his slider had abandoned him.
Either by taking away his full arsenal of weapons or by putting his health at risk, it seems the Reds are intent on ruining Hunter Greene.
It worked okay for Mariano Rivera, but he usually only faced three batters at a time 🙂
I do not disagree. I thought and still think the 2 same fastball is a good idea. It can be either a cutter or a sinker with subtle adjustments in finger positioning and pressure.
It was the idea of trying to implement it on the fly in MLB during his rookie season at MLB which rankled me. Send him back to AAA to do that.
And if they are concerned about his change up, isn’t Mario Soto still available for consultation? He knows a thing a or three about being a power pitcher with a killer change.
Mariano Rivera began his career as SP but only had outstanding results as RP from the bullpen.
What would the possible difference in outcome have been had he used the change up more in yesterday’s game? He gave up zero, none, nada hits and zero, none, nada runs in 7.1 innings of work. How could he have been better than that performance if he had thrown more change ips?
On the other hand, one of those extra change ups could easily have landed in the seats. Nothing better could have come from the change up yesterday, only things worse.
Note, only referring the yesterday’s game and the comment he should have used the change more yesterday. Agree that three pitches are generally better than two in an SP, but not yesterday.
Having him throw the slider–and he has a good slider–seems to me to be expanding his arsenal, in the sense that it allows him to not rely exclusively on his fastball as an out pitch. Even a fastball as fast as his is far from a sure bet in MLB. As for the change-up, maybe he wants to work on it more in non-game situations? I certainly agree that he needs it going forward.
I did not hear Hunter Greene’s after game comments. But, for the pitching coach or manager to not ask a 22 year old pitcher who has just thrown 7 no-hit innings and has a history of TJ surgery, if he felt up to going out for the 8th. inning seems incomprehensible.
Greene had a very special slider going yesterday. The league is hitting .440 or something like that against his fastball. He will be making adjustments on the fly in every start it appears.
Great article and for me Bell became a fan and not a manager.Thats what led to the 118 pitches so it’s hard for me to say that’s defendable.Unless someone ask him about the 8th then we won’t know but I can’ believe extra rest entered his mind at all.He became a fan IMO unless there is more from Bell
100%. He fully intended for Greene to finish that game if he had gotten thru the 8th. Then you’re looking at a 150 pitch outing. Madness.
I find it remarkable that so many people have mastered the art of mind reading, Sultan. I don’t read minds but, even so, I find it unlikely that Bell would’ve let him throw 150 pitches.
I guess you didn’t watch the press conference.
I didn’t. What did he say? In the event, Greene didn’t finish the game, so there’s that.
It has become clear that Bell is not the person to handle the young players the Reds have on the roster now and those coming soon. The man needs to go asap, he is fan not a manager. How can anybody support Bell making tough decisions in the future for a team that might actually compete.
Has it become clear? Presumably, since we aren’t able to judge based on much besides the performance of the young players, we should consider that. I present Jonathan India and Tyler Stephenson.
My take on the usual suspects and Bell:
Senzel not good with (injuries sure but they moved the guy all over, messed with his stance, just nothing to help create continuity).
Stephenson the FO made that decision by not wanting to pay for Barnhart (but no problems with the split workload last year)
India good with (but injuries forced him to play India daily and then India did the rest)
Barreo jury is out – so far bad
Greene jury is out – first bad move otherwise neutral.
Lodolo – okay but very small sample size.
On the whole, not good but probably only slightly below average.
The decision to try Senzel at other positions does not seem to have been Bell’s–and since players changing positions is pretty common, I’m not sure that it can be cited as mismanaging. Senzel has been injured a great deal; that’s about all that we can safely say. He hasn’t really had enough sustained playing time to evaluate his batting stance. The circumstances of Stephenson and India playing don’t really relate to this, either: They are both fine young players. As you say, the jury is still out on Barrero. Player development is the job of a number of people, not just a manager,
2 games in a row (close games) that good teams need to win came down to a base hit when needed. It is one thing to have a decent batting average and another to hit when it counts. Team is now forced because of injuries to use people with long histories of being just average with mutable teams.
I also believe that when we get all the pieces back this team will be more than just competitive.
For the record not now nor ever have been a Bell fan.
Fair question. Since a pitcher shouldn’t be approached in midst of a no no, Bell’s way of giving Greene a vote of confidence. Statement: Nobody warming in the pen, this is all you!
Not approaching the guy is too old school for this old guy! He is a rookie in his age 22 (rookie) season at the MLB level. He had already thrown over 100 pitches.
Just ask him if he is OK to go back out and see where he takes the conversation. If he says ‘yes’ tell him it is his call but tell him you’ve got his back and the pen will be ready if needed.
Exactly. What situation more needs support for a young guy than this one? elevated pitch count, nobody in bullpen, no knowledge of plan (if there was one), etc. but the old silent treatment. No wonder Greene walked two guys. Looks like Warren didn’t get adequate warm up time either. Somebody else said it first, but these “decisions” and a lot of the other “confidence” measures Bell espouses indicates that he is primarily a fanboy, not a manager.
Greene darn near got out of the 8th. In fact, with India and Farmer behind him, he likely does get out of the 8th.
It shocked me Bell sent him back out. And it shocked me he wasn’t getting someone warmed up.
But Greene comes out of that game a stronger pitcher than he went in. I’m shocked Bell trusted him but I’m glad he did.
Multiple starting pitchers have been removed during no hitters already this year including Kershaw.
And including Greene.
Slider complementing fastball fairly well. Considering results.
I text my dad and brother that the Reds throwing a no-hitter and losing was the most 2022 Reds thing ever. Unfortunately, as the 8th inning unfolded that was the exact scenario I envisioned. It’s just how the year is going.
Questioning Bell is legitimate, especially about not having a reliever warming up. But ultimately, the offense didn’t come through, again. That’s a small part due to injuries, but a large part due to the decimation of the roster by the FO and ownership. They’re ultimately who we have to thank for gut punches like yesterday. I literally witnessed a FO employee celebrate the fact that the Reds were beating up on the Pirate’s. I get that we’re all stoked to see the rare W this season, but beating up on the Pirate’s shouldn’t be celebrated and acted as if things are turning around. They’re not. Yesterday was a reminder of that.
Right as rain.
With a no hitter going, I can’t really fault Bell, can’t believe I’m saying this, for letting him start the 8th. But his bullpen management once again cost the Reds a game. I’ll stick with my call to fire the entire coaching staff, starting with Bell. Too many young players careers are in jeopardy with this management team.
Not having the pen ready to go was the biggie for me presuming Greene felt he had the juice left to start the 8th which per his comments he expected to be asked about but wasn’t.
It’s unfathomable. But then that’s the Reds for the last umpteen years. And it’s only gotten worse the last couple of years.
the bigger issue is 1 run in 18 innings against the pirates. we are 7 position players away from being competitive, with a cheap owner. maybe we have one or 2 potential good position players in the minors but other that we are basically screwed long term
We have to pin our hopes on Stephenson, India, Barrero, Mclain, De La Cruz, and a few others. The problem is they most likely won’t all pan out as Senzel Hasn’t. That is why they have to trade both Castillo and Mahle and hope for a good return. They also need a free agent or two and maybe catch lightening in a bottle with someone like Drury.
Are you counting both India and Stephenson? Still leaves 6, but the cupboard in the minors isn’t bare.
i like stephenson and india. then after that i am not convinced of anybody. Barrero worries me. I have given up on Senzel. yes we have some good young prospects but that is all they are now, is prospects.
You’re absolutely right: It would be unusual if all of them pan out. But since ownership won’t spend what it would take to acquire impact free-agents, and since the Reds can’t, at this point, re-stock by trading, building with prospects seems rational. And the prospects–prospects though they be–look pretty good.
I see where some in the national sports media are using a term I had not heard before, a “blow-no”. Of course, when it happens six times in a 100 years, it is not that common.
Makes perfect sense Jim. I am old school, as well. Frustrated with Bell, at times, this season. Leaving San Martin in to give up 9 runs. Guiterrez, 6-7 runs. Pulling Overton during a shutout performance. Although he did atone for that in his (Overtin’s) last start. On the fence regarding Greene. Agree safety first. Thanks!
IMO you can blame Bell. I don’t put the losing on Bell, that is on the FO, but yesterday not having someone up and throwing is a BIG blunder, but I still don’t think he should have been sent out to start the inning, I could see the result coming.
Doug, I think you are spot on with your comments in this article. I have no problem with letting the kid pitch 118 pitches. Heck, I think pitchers should all be throwing that many pitches if not more. There is no proof that suggests these under 100 pitch counts are benefitting pitchers at all. preparation in the bullpen, etc. Spot on.
If you look through the way-back machine lens, Seaver, Carlton, Ryan, and the like threw a whole lot more pitches. And a lot more innings as well.
Yeah but I’m guessing they were all brought up throwing more pitches and were conditioned for it.
I have no problem with leaving Green in for the 8th. I don’t like that they had no one ready in the bullpen, but my bigger issue is that the guy they did bring in was Warren. That situation calls for your best bullpen arm available not the guy you want to get some work in.
Do we know that Warren wasn’t the best available? We know he hasn’t been the most effective, but available is the word, not best.
greenmtred, stop being so logical and reasonable all the time!
🙂
My wife would say, if asked, that being logical and reasonable isn’t one of my many faults.
Had any relievers been up throwing at all during the game, especially in the sixth or seventh innings?
Based on what the WLW boot was saying, that’s a hard “no”. Nobody up in the 6th, between the 6th and 7th, or starting the 7th (until Warren).
Meant 8th
They still need a Jonny Gomes type that scares lefties. Even as limited as Phillip Ervin was as a player, he produced vs lhp. Drury helps and India & Stephenson were out yesterday, but we’re still in need of that. How hard can it be to find a Phillip Ervin type out there somewhere? Barrero down the road maybe?
Votto, Moose, Naquin, and Moran….thats alot of their firepower that is greatly diminished vs lefties.
I wanted the Reds to trade for CJ Cron rockies last year when they were awful and the Reds needed a righty bat
Hes great against lefties.
Aquino was that guy until he wasn’t. When the shift is eliminated right handed bats value will drop, as left handed bats rise again. Then teams will be looking everywhere for the Colin Moran type.
I think a RH outfield prospect with some pop should be the target when the trade Castillo.
Marco Luciano is your man then as the #13 overall prospect for the SF Giants. Hes a SS but projects more as a 3b or RF and is a potential superstar bat.
NL West is going to be a dogfight. Dodgers have lost all of their pitching. Buehler is losing Velocity, Kershaw is hurt, Heaney is hurt, Urias isnt a #1. Trevor Bauer is off the radar.
Dodgers pitching is running on fumes. Giants will be aggressive to beat them.
Since I don’t believe there’s any scientific evidence whatsoever connecting “arm problems” with throwing 10 or 20 additional pitches in any given game (just as I don’t believe basketball players develop leg problems by occasionally playing 5 minutes more than they usually do), but Bell’s inability to bring in a reliever as soon as a guy reached first base is inexcusable. (I DO believe pitchers get tired after throwing some number of pitches, because that’s how bodies work.) The roster is LOADED with relievers for some unknown reason, and if you’re not even going to bother having one warmed up in that situation, you need to be fired. This team has enough problems even if the manager makes all the right moves. It can’t afford a manager who makes at least one wrong move almost every single day.
I believe that Hunter, because of his young age and injuries, has only pitched roughly 200 innings in his entire MiLB career. His development has been rushed by probably half a season and he is already losing speed on his fastball while greatly altering pitch selection for reasons not very forthcoming. What if Hunter gets through the 8th with no problems and is then sitting at 125 pitches. Than, what does David Bell do? Apparently, risk an injury to Hunter or other developmental problems for a chance of a little glory at the expense of the mighty Pirates. Instead, the Reds just gifted this win to them in memorable failure.
We should move Greene to pen to reduce injury risk. Plus if the argument is that pitchers are not conditioned for this removing them at 100 pitches constantly just makes them susceptible to injury at lower pitch count number. Was pitch 75 when risk increased. He also was not pitching in high risk bases occupied situations all day another common cause sited for risk that is unprovable. Trying to eliminate arm problems for pitchers is noble but tricky to predict and so far results across MLB are dubious at best.
For clarity I winched as 8th inning started that 2 relievers weren’t up and getting warm not that Hunter went back out. Should have had short leash at that point of game with any starter.
Is his velocity reduced or is he learning he does not have to go maximum effort on every pitch to be successful, so he can pitch to eighth and ninth innings.
It was an indefensible decision given the state of the Reds record, the amount of total innings Greene has thrown, the fact that he has had Tommy John and been shut down already once this year. Reds are going to ruin him like the Cubs did with Wood. Amazing to me that Reds beat writers defend Bell at all costs and against all logic.
Then there is the “Verducci Effect”:
The Verducci Effect, a theory put forth by Tom Verducci and former Oakland A’s pitching coach Rick Peterson more than a decade ago, posits that pitchers under 25 years old whose workloads increase by more than 30 innings are at risk of injury or major regression the following season.
Again an unproven theory that has generally been applied yet arm injuries persist or even escalate not sure that has most relevance to improving arm health.
Wasn’t it Bob Melvin that has taken 2 pitchers out this year when pitching a no hitter?
I am not sure about Bob Melvin, but Dave Roberts has done it a couple of times this season.
Yes, this young man represents the fortunes of the franchise for the next 7 years or more. Moreso than India or Barreo. Care must be exercised. It doesn’t appear by any account that it was yesterday.
I’m about as anti-David Bell as they come, but I have no problem with him letting Greene throw 118 pitches. In my mind, he knew there were off days and that Minor would be back soon, so he decided to let the kid throw knowing he won’t make his next start. I have a major problem with not having anyone up and throwing until about the 111 pitch mark. Those are the basic managerial moves that show that Bell is a great guy that players love but not even remotely a decent manager.
+250
Same here
I would have taken him out after 7 and 102 pitches. If you are letting him back out though, its a batter to batter, pitch to pitch thing. Why no bullpen ready is a mystery
The extra day off should help and greene took some major steps forward . Get Lodolo healthy and see how these young pitchers handle the every day grind of preparing to pitch every 5 th day.
David Bell is a below average manager who wouldn’t have a job if his last name wasn’t Bell. Sorry but that’s the truth of the matter….
Nepotism seems to be about the only org philosophy I can pinpoint. I mean, krall isn’t related to anyone, but he was just one office over from the last GM who was lol.
I agree Doug, David Bell was in a no win situation. He was going to be criticized either way.
I have been critical of David Bell but I am fine with his decision to let Greene start the 8th innings.
I assume the decision was premised on the two off days coming up this week. Greene’s next start will be Sunday, or on 6 days’ rest. The theory is that throwing 118 pitches isn’t the risk; the risk is pitching again before the arm has had a chance to recover from the higher-pitch outing.
However, I was surprised that they let him pitch after the first walk. He didn’t really show any signs of being tired until that hitter.
Greene would have been fine, without the 25-pitch (or so) first inning. If he throws only 15 pitches in that inning, he would have gotten out of the 8th.
Actual baseball news on Nick Senzel. He starts a rehab stent Wednesday. Would be nice to get some updates on the status of Barrero and Lodolo.
I throw this out there fwiw from Fangraphs:
Greene’s 118 pitches were the highest of any pitcher this season, surpassing Kyle Hendricks‘ 116 from last Monday against the Padres, when he came within one out of a complete-game shutout. Hendricks is a 32-year-old veteran, however, and thanks to a whole lot of Tommy John surgeries on young arms, major league managers as a group have steered away from pushing 22-year-old pitchers so hard. Since the start of the 2012 season, just three times has a pitcher 22 or younger gone at least 118 pitches, the last of those almost exactly four years ago…
I have been a Bell defender, or at least feel like very vew other managers would have done any better, but I find this pretty close to indefensible.
“He pitched his way into having an opportunity to go nine innings, get a win and a no-hitter. In my book, that’s what it was,” Bell said after the game….He had no reason to second guess his decision.
This, from the same guy who pulls effective relievers on less than 10 pitches if at the end of an inning and generally seems obsessed with pitch counts, matchups, days off, and the like. I think he is a fanboy type because of his actions and how he talks, I didn’t know he pretty much admitted the same afterwards. No, we are not mind readers here as someone earlier suggested. It is also true that not having a bullpen ready at the beginning of the 8th is a greater mistake because that hurt the team and not just Hunter Greene.
Thanks for the quote from Bell.Was it in response to a question about the 8th inning?
Bell probably pulls relievers after ten pitches or so because he may need them the next day. Not the case with a starter and, particularly, not the case here, as Old Big Ed points out.
This whole thread is just full of ridiculousness. Not having someone throwing is deserving of some scrutiny and its generating debate, but its small fish IMO. I like Bell showing some confidence in him like that. Saying Warren, who gave up no hits and got a groundball the defense couldnt handle, was the wrong choice is just as silly. The loss is on the punchless offense y’all, not bell, its as simple as that.
Loved Hunter’s performance; I did not have a problem w/ 100 pc – though I certainly didn’t like seeing him throw 118.
For me the “Bell” issue is not doing enough in the “early” going to try and manufacture at least a run.
What do analytics say about RPs starting an inning instead of coming in with 0, 1 or 2 outs? Are some better at this than others? How does warm up time affect this? Is it too much to assume that some team somewhere has spent the resource to determine this and structure their pen accordingly? Have the Reds?
I am starting to wonder if the reds are “showcasing” Greene for a trade. the organization is desperate for position players and trading Greene could bring some good prospects. that is the only reason i can see keeping him out there like that. the reds have enough good pitching prospects to survive without Greene. We now need to get some position players to be able to field a competitive team
Or it could be that he was throwing a no-hitter yesterday. I guess he had 102 pitches after 7 so I could see letting him go til someone got on or if a guy had a long at-bat, but Bell pushed him 8 pitches past that. I don’t see it as a big deal unless it happens frequently.
Showcasing though? Whats left of the Reds fanbase would openly revolt.
They have other young arms, but no guys with no-hit stuff on any given night like HG!
Hm, confused why my comment was not approved with no violation i can think of. Just testing to see if this posts
Shrugs. K i dunno what i said, but it was basically i think everyone is going crazy here over small fish. Im glad bell showed faith in greene and the reliever he chose gave up no hits and a GB a good defense wouldve converted into more outs. If youre looking for someone to blame, id personally blame the punchless offense.
With this franchise it’s always about the future. Everything is done with that in mind. Homer Bailey was going to be the savior. Now it’s this kid. How about doing everything to win a game especially when it’s mid May and only 9 wins this far. I’m not saying Bell is a good manager although he has little to work with. Maybe he made he decision to leave him in thinking it would lead to a win. But wins don’t matter because once again the Reds are “2 years away”. And if this kid does develop he won’t be here very long. He will be a centerpiece of yet another bait and switch meaning trading establishment players for prospects.
Greene should have been taken out after 7 innings. Neither team had scored and there was little chance that Green could finish the game with less than 135-140 pitches which would have been way too many considering all the circumstances. There was very little chance that he could have gotten a no hitter and the Reds may have not scored if the game went 15 innings. The proper and safe thing to do was remove him and not take any chances that too many pitches may lead to arm trouble.
I see 2 former Reds, Cueto & Miley, pitched a total of 13 innings allowed 3 hits and striking out 13 and no runs.
Obviously I’m in the minority but pitching or pitching moves didn’t lose this game 0 runs scored did
In Greene’s first 7 games this year he is averaging 90 pitches, with 2 games of 100 or more.
Interestingly, last year thru his first 7 minor league games, he averaged 94 pitches, with 3 games going over 100 pitches.
So his usage seems to be comparable to last year, aside from tossing 118 pitches, which I’m pretty sure is a career high # of pitches for him, and is also 11% more than his highest total from last season.
I still look to 2024 because we ain’t going to compete this year or next for anything other then 4th place in our own division.I still like for the Reds to win but with 5 starters out Sunday and facing a lefty we could have played all day and never ever scored so once Hunter finished the 7th that was good enough in my book.Yes small victory but if it weren’t for guys like him and the other young guys playing I have no reason to watch.I know what the vets are going to based on the back of their card and by years end it pretty much lines up.Greene could be the prize bull around here for a long time and if not he could bring a big haul but not if he gets hurt.Yes he could get hurt in a number of ways but it was risky to push him any further at any time for any reason even if he throwing a no hitter at his age after having surgery.Bell became a fan but he isn’t a fan.We are fans and we voice our opinions as fans and we differ from time to time but I believe all of us want our Reds to compete every year and forever for titles.I can also believe none of us want any player that is part of our future to be put at risk on the field and the Reds don’t do such a good job of dealing with injured players to begin with.