The Cincinnati Reds have traded starting pitcher Sonny Gray and minor leaguer Francis Peguero to the Minnesota Twins for pitching prospect Chase Petty.
In his three seasons with the Reds, Sonny Gray went 23-20 with a 3.49 ERA in 68 starts. He threw 366.2 innings, allowed 279 hits – 40 homers – walked 144 batters, and he picked up 432 strikeouts while posting a 136 ERA+. Along with Luis Castillo, Gray was at the top of the rotation over the course of his time in Cincinnati. Prospect Francis Peguero is a 24-year-old reliever who spent the 2021 season in High-A Dayton where he posted a 4.96 ERA in 32.2 innings where he allowed 33 hits, walked just 7 batters, and he struck out 36. He was unranked as a Reds prospect.
Sonny Gray will make just over $10M this year. With the Reds not getting back a big league player, all of that money goes into their pockets. Whether they use that money to put towards the 2022 roster or not is something we’re going to have to keep an eye on over the next week or two. Gray also had a team option in 2023 for $12M.
Coming back to Cincinnati is Chase Petty, an 18-year-old right-handed pitcher who was the 26th overall pick in the 2021 draft by the Minnesota Twins. Last season he only threw 5.0 innings at the Twins complex level team in Florida. Baseball America rated him the 7th best prospect in the Twins organization and gave him the nod for the best fastball in their farm system. In his senior season he touched 102 MPH. Not only does his fastball have big velocity, but it also has good sinking movement to it. He also shows a potential plus slider. Like most young pitchers, his change up lags behind the fastball and the breaking ball, but he’s shown an ability to throw it at times.
Cincinnati is clearly trading the “now” for “the future” in this deal. At best, Chase Petty is going to be in Low-A this season when the minor leagues begin. He is years away from reaching the big leagues. We wrote a bit more about Petty over at RedsMinorLeagues.com if you’re looking for a bit more.
With that said, Sonny Gray’s spot in the rotation is going to be up for grabs. That leaves two spots open for the taking right now. Unless something else happens, it seems that Luis Castillo, Tyler Mahle, and Vladimir Gutierrez seem to have spots locked up (Nick Krall said yesterday that the 5th spot in the rotation was there for the competition). With the trade it seems two spots are now open for the young group of potential starting pitchers in camp.
- Graham Ashcraft – RHP
- Hunter Greene – RHP
- Jeff Hoffman – RHP
- Ben Lively – RHP
- Riley O’Brien – RHP
- Tony Santillan – RHP
- Nick Lodolo – LHP
- Reiver Sanmartin – LHP
All of those guys seem to be in a competition to win a spot in the rotation. Hoffman and Lively represent the veteran types who could round out the back end of the rotation if none of the younger guys are determined to be ready in the early part of the season. But there’s plenty of upside with the likes of Ashcraft, Greene, Lodolo, and Santillan as starting pitchers. Reiver Sanmartin performed well in his two big league starts against the Pittsburgh Pirates in the final week of 2021 and gives a very different look than the others.
I ran this through baseballtradevalues trade simulator and it yelled at me.
“Reality check!
You need to add at least one high-value player to the other side of this trade for it to be accepted, and make sure there’s not too many.”
This trade was trash. Nick didn’t try that hard. Bob is counting the stacks they saved. None of this money will be put back into the product. Just stop pretending and be the Pirates or Marlins.
What a pathetic trade. According to the site you mentioned Bassit has half the trade value of Gray and Ginn has twice the trade value of Petty.
The owner needs go sell the team before it has no value at all! Trade Votto, hell, nobody wants to eat his salary
@Colorado Red – In all fairness, at this point, Votto may waive his 5/10 to move to a contender. The way the Reds have clearly indicated that they are going back into rebuild (perpetually rebuilding this team), Votto may want a shot at winning a WS at some point. After his very good year last year, I think there would be some interest. His contract is heavy but not for the right team and the Reds could kick in a few $$ if absolutely needed. I personally, if the Reds continue to subtract and not add, which I have no reason to believe won’t happen; would not be surprised if Votto actually approaches the Reds FO about moving him.
This trade seals it. Reds avoiding the basement of the NL Central would be a major surprise. If they can’t afford to compete, get out of the business.
Nowhere near the basement.
Last place for sure. I will be watching the Cards this year. Hope the Reds base is smart enough to NOT attend
With Pittsburgh around? No way.
Gray to Twins for pennies on the dollar. Thank you, Bob Castellini for building always being engaged with building a competitive team every year!
Bob is the real doofus
Have said this but few seem to care. The new MLB/MLBPA deal did NOTHING to address competitive balance, if anything it makes things worse. More $ for players yes but the $ will come from the rich teams. So as someone like most of the rest of the folks on the website fated to cheer for a small market owned by a non billionaire, we will live with this for five more years. After having lived with mediocrity and “re-building” (with very brief respites) for 30 years. There is a reason the NBA and NFL are kicking MLB’s behind and it only marginally relates to slow pace of play and BB/SO/HR styles.
“Petty was the Twins’ first-round pick in 2021, a hard-throwing, athletic right-hander from southern New Jersey who hit 101 in the spring, would regularly sit 95-98 and showed a potentially plus slider in the upper 80s. It’s a high-effort delivery with some head violence, certainly not one you typically see in a starter, so the Twins may have to decide to tone down the delivery to give him a better chance to start or roll the dice on the pure power of his arm and see if he can get to command in spite of how it all works.”
Southern New Jersey? There is not much down there. Millville, NJ where Mike Trout comes from is one of the largest towns in south Jersey.
I guess Nick Krall is done reevaluating Sonny Gray. I will miss him. I enjoyed watching him pitch. The movement on his pitches…watching them drop in for called strikes.
MLB Network confirms Petty is from Mike Trout’s home town.
Sounds like a future ‘pen piece right now. Ways to go though.
This franchise has become a joke.
Yeah and that includes Votto’s salary this year. He just ain’t worth it
Raise your hand if you think Bob “We know how it is done” Castellini is lowering payroll so he can go out and make a big splash signing a stud free agent or two?
Gray for a prospect that threw 5.0 inning last season? If he can’t secure a better return for a proven starter, he’s an even bigger joke than I had thought. The best that can be said for the trade is that at least it wasn’t a simple waiver. The Reds are going to have trouble holding onto 4th place in the division.
I don’t like the trade but the innings thrown for Petty doesn’t mean much. With the change in when the draft is almost no pitchers selected in 2021 pitched professionally for more than 2-3 weeks.
Duh, John Heyman proclaims that Reds are in sell mode.
Heyman is wrong. The Reds are in give away mode.
Don’t know much about the return, but getting a recent 1st rd pick for Gray is the right direction. Get the best talent you can regardless how close they are. A 1st rd pick is better than what would result from a QO which is doubtful Gray would have been worth that if he were a current FA.
Same. Grays peripheral figures show a #3 at this point in his career. Not sold on the return but it’s the move that a small market team should be making.
Look at the list vying to replace him: never has it been so talented or so deep.
I hope you are kidding Grand Salami
Why would you hope he’s kidding? Greene, Lodolo and Ashcraft have great potential. For a team in the Reds’ position, a youth movement makes sense.
I agree, I think the return is just fine and a lot of people think Petty has a lot of upside. The problem that angers people is the money doesn’t get reinvested back into the team, or I think people would see this as a solid move.
Reading through the replies and I saw yours, I have posted several things where I obviously do not agree with this trade if this team had any actual intentions of competing this year. From what I have read about him this looks like a potentially very good player down the road, however he is extremely young and obviously unproven. Much like hunter greene several years ago and hopefully he can follow the same progression (minus the injury / covid). But to me and I’m sure a lot of others this is basically them throwing in the towel already on this season. It’s just kind of demoralizing as a fan, which I’m sure you feel and understand as well as everyone else who has followed this team for a long time
What people need to remember is it’s not opening day yet. I mean, geez, this isn’t like you make one trip to the store to get your groceries for the entire season.
Yes, true, all I see is firesale right now. But, it’s not opening day yet. And, not one person here can say how Gray is medically, having come off an injury-riddled season. Maybe that’s why we were only able to get what we got.
People need to calm down. The teams have just been allowed to make any moves a couple of days ago.
Are you kidding me. Nowhere else can you find bonafide #2 starter for only $10 million. This is why I wasn’t excited when MLB and players signed new agreement. I knew the Reds would be pretenders and not contenders.
Agree, $22 million for 2 years of sonny gray and your team can’t afford it to keep him? Sell the team, Bob. You already gave away Miley because you didn’t want to pay him 10 million, who the hell do you think you’re going to find for that price? You’re a joke
He is only 18 years-old and he is now a bonafide #2 starter?
He meant gray as the bonafide #2. Even as a #3, who else you finding for $22 mil over two years anymore. This kid could be good and work out, but think the reds will pay to keep him if he does?
He wasn’t a #2 last year and he won’t be this year either. It’s the right move but the return is a little questionable.
If the return is questionable then it is not the right move.
Stock, +1000
If it means Sanmartin gets a rotation spot, I’m all for it.
Mark, are you actually saying you would rather have SanMartin in your rotation over Sonny Gray??
The return is questionable because all returns are until the games get played. And because the return is an 18 year-old prospect–just what the Reds ought to be looking for. How would we feel if Petty were a 30 year-old? The Reds have some very good young players, but they aren’t going to win the 2022 WS by adding a couple of 30-something vets to the roster, in all probability.
so now they have basically given away or allowed to leave with no effort to retain arguably 5 of the best 15 players from last years 500 team. why would anyone pay to go see them? been a reds fan for more than 60 years and this sure is getting old.
Petty with potential ’70’ grade fastball and slider, but needs significant development time hone delivery and change up.
I love the trade. The Reds don’t have money to spend.
Now, we’re on Castillo, Mahle, and Winker watch. Might as well go all in. No need to play coy or go with half measures. The Reds aren’t competing this year, cash in with 2024 in mind.
I agree Hotto. Reds should do a complete fire sale!
The problem is he’s not cashing in for 2024. He’s cashing in for cash in his pocket
Trading for prospects he won’t have to worry about paying until after he pays his inheritance taxes to transfer the team
Eh, getting high level prospects back is way better for the Reds future than salary dumps, which has been the norm for the past two seasons. Between the two I’d prefer this route every time.
@hotto, yes it’s better than just literally giving someone away like they did with barnhart or Miley. But the problem is ownership under Bob has shown that even if this guy is a stud they will dump him before they pay him. Getting prospects no matter how highly ranked is useless if you are continually getting rid of them before you pay them any money. You cannot constantly be in a rebuild cycle. Getting a high ceiling prospect for somebody is not a bad thing, but it is if that is all you are ever doing and have no intention of spending the money needed to actually compete.
I get people being upset at this trade, but if I read about one more person being upset that they “gave away” Barnhardt, they have no concept of baseball. What organization is going to pay $7.5M for a BACK-UP catcher?(besides NY or LA, of course). He was not going to start for this team. What do people not get?
I get it. And I’m frustrated with the most recent direction I’ve seen from ownership. And yeah the first rebuild failed overall and was mishandled throughout. And the recent salary dumping and crying poor has really soured my opinion on the ownership.
But, In the past they have made extensions and paid guys through arbitration. They have been active on the IFA front and at least demonstrated that under the right circumstances they’ll try in FA and at the trade deadline. It hasn’t been much but I won’t completely write off the possibility of making moves to improve down the line. We have a very good group of guys that are ready/near ready. Let them get time over the next two years and then hopefully add. While also trading in on Castillo, Mahle, and Winker’s high trade value now (instead of waiting and possibly have it diminish) to add guys to the next wave of prospects. That’s how small market teams get to sustainability, IMO.
Transfer of ownership will probably happen through a corporation, which most likely preclude inheritance taxes.
Bob Purkey, that’s a false narrative. People are not upset that they traded Tucker Barnhart. What people are upset about is they gave him away.
The Reds also have not given any indication they are reinvesting the money they saved back into the team. Quite the opposite, they continue to slash payroll.
The Tigers scored a pretty good starting catcher for a player who struggled in A ball last year.
The Tigers, who I think we can agree, are not known for liberal spending, were happy to pay 7.5 million dollars to Barnhart this year.
Anyone with talent and reasonable contract will be gone – our “bedrock” roster will be Shogo, Moose, and Votto – AKA – contracts that can’t be moved.
Reds bet the farm on the year lost to Covid, it may be years recovering from this.
+1,000
Reds went all in for 2020 and if they had a normal season and a playoff run, fans would have packed the house every night and then into 2021. That could have been the revenue generator to keep spending.
Exactly. I wish Bob would open up the books and show how bad of a bet all the money spent for 2020 actually was. It’s not been reported but it really looks like the Reds lost money in 2021.
I hope these painful moves mean a faster recovery.
Bob won’t open the books because the Reds likely made money. At least in real book, not the one where they don’t count revenue from concessions or memorabilia or other routes. I used to back owners a bit, they paid big money for team, they have the right to run it for a profit, etc. I think they’re making a big profit and if they open the books and show a loss and folks start noticing all the revenue they DON’T include in the “books”, then they’ll be rightfully embarrassed and raked over the coals. You can bet they’d show every expenditure, right down to the clubhouse sunflower seeds.
Why not Austin Martin straight up for Sonny Gray?
This is keeping with the returns that Castellini insists the Reds get for top players (see returns for Chapman, Bruce, Cueto, Frazier, etc.).
Why does everyone put Lodolo’s name out there? He pitched 50 innings last year. He can’t be expected to throw 125 innings this year. He should be a made a middle reliever that builds to 80 innings this year and then as a starter next year
It would probably be wise to trade high on Winker after the year he had in 2021 with his injury history. We can just hold our breath on what we get back though.
I hope they keep Winker. I see him as Votto’s replacement in a couple of years. Please keep Mahle and Castillo.
I like Winker too. The only problem with him is that he gets hurt swinging the bat. I’m afraid that will only get worse as he gets older.
The start to finish story of Sonny and the Reds was a big value win for the franchise. Acquired (with SanMartin who could replace him) for Shed Long the Reds then extended him 3 years at 30 mill and now they ship him off saving $10 mill and acquiring another 1st rounder.
If all Reds transactions played out like that, they’d be a playoff team every year!
LOL
@stock your laughing, but it’s very true.
not happy
that is all
I am fine with this trade if you have the guts and brains to go all in on 2024. That means you need to trade as many of the guys as you can such as Mahle and Castillo maybe Winker as well. Please don’t try to win 81 games this year, shoot for the future but do it with a plan. That last thought may be the problem with this team.
With the expanded playoffs a team doesn’t have to try as hard anymore. I’m afraid Big Bob will always be shooting for that last spot at best every year.
I would be happy if he was shooting for any play off spot. I think he is stuck in the 1950s. Expect the players to be happy with a pittance and gets upsets at fans for not appreciating him for buying the franchise.
I bet he really resents how Dick Williams ran things.
Marge Schotte and Carl Linder were terrible owners but Cucumber Bob takes the cake. Worst owner in sports.
I thought it was “Cumquat” Bob?
Doofus if the vegetable fits : – )
Would certainly like to have seen them get a little more, but if you look at Sonny’s stats he has digresses a little in 20 and again in 21. He was no longer the all Star from ‘19.His pitching health wasn’t the best last year and might have portended a bigger breakdown on the horizon. With the young studs on the near horizon maybe they got the best they could.
I agree we have several starting prospects on the horizon, but giving away a proven pitcher who only made 10 million this year for a unproven prospect screams we have given up on this year already. How many highly rated prospects don’t work out? You’re taking the chance on the unknown to get rid of someone who is proven, even if he isn’t as good as he was a couple years ago 10 million isn’t much for a third starter these days, if you’re actually wanting to compete. So if you’re going into rebuild, then go into rebuild again. Would a first round pick be enough for Castillo, you’re not going to pay him obviously so what will it take for him or Mahle. Don’t come out and try to sell a fan base on something if you’re just going to give people away and build for 2 to 3 years from now. Which by that time India/stephenson will be in arbitration and one to two years away from being traded because they’re not going to pay them either. Why not go ahead and trade them for some 18 to 19-year-old kids and hope all of them hit their prime at the same time because that’s the only time you have a chance.
Agreed MK Sonny has regressed somewhat the last 2 seasons……I think it’s Greene time!!!!
With respect: Why do some of us begin to accept what ownership has done is some sort of panacea to the ball club’s problems and that we should just shrug our shoulders and say: “Well it is just Bob, being Bob, and he knows what he is doing because he has produced so many championships since he has been principal owner?
The Red’s “might have” young stud” pitchers ONCE they prove in the major leagues that they are young studs.
I apologize MK if I am out of line. I am just pissed at the continual sell off of prime talent for pennies on the dollar under the Castellini regime. It is if he believes that players are just aged produce with no value.
It is abundantly clear that Bob Castellini is incapable of, or financially willing to build a championship baseball team in Cincinnati. His 2006 letter to the fans is a farce.
…”financially unwilling…”
Bob Castellini and Nick Krall are like the human versions of the cartoon “Mr Peabody and Sherman.”
“We have to eliminate the peaks and valleys Mr. Peabody!”
I love Sonny Gray and how he competed.
The issue is how much gas does have in the tank at 32 with a high velocity/torque delivery in a small frame.
He missed the first week of the season last year with a mid back injury. He missed most of June with a groin injury and back issues and missed a start around the AS break with a rib cage strain.
I was at his game the huge series with the Brewers. He pitched against Burnes and labored through the first inning, hitting 2 batters including Tellez with the bases loaded. He settled in a bit then got knocked out and couldn’t get through the 5th inning.
His line that day was 4.2 IP 5 runs 6 hits 99 pitches. The REds lists 8-0 and weren’t competitive. He had a lot of starts where he labored to give you 5 innings. I think his best days are behind him and trading him is a good idea. I have no idea about the return.
To be optimistic, Krall talked about stockpiling young starting pitchers and talented athletes and drafting and developing or acquiring them is the Reds new philosophy. The Reds now have 4 of the top 35 players from the 2021 draft-
Matt McClain 17th overall- elite college shortstop
Chase Petty 26th overall-power righty SP
Jay Allen 30th overall-athletic OF with 5 tool potential
Mat Nelson 35th overall-good defensive catcher with power
None of those guys will help win games in 2022- but at least there’s some serious upside and there’s a plan.
That said, This move confirms its time to let the young guys play and there’s no role for Kyle Farmer at SS. It’s time for Jose Barrero to play every day at SS and get 600 at bats no matter what.
You are right of course, but I’ll wager that Kyle Farmer will start 130 games at SS this year, while Jose Barrio is riding the Louisville shuttle all year.
not more than 5 times.
Agree 1000% I loved watching Sonny pitch, but this trade may turn out to be the sort of trade that fans have been clamoring for; trade the asset for future value before they break down, and not after when they bring little in return.
Now I just need to see more personnel and management that seems consistent with this plan. Trade other players that won’t be here for the next competitive team and play younger guys who show potential.
Gray had an ERA over 5 after the AS break. If he stays injury free and makes 30 starts and reverts to his 2019 form as a 29 year old- great for him. I could be wrong but i think Reds fans will be glad they traded Gray. The real issue will be what did they get in return? They got a high risk high ceilng young flamethrower. Reading Kralls comments- its clear they would have taken him at #30 over Jay Allen if the Twins didnt grab him at #26
Krall is building a talent pipeline and starting pitching. Greene, Lodolo, Ashcraft and now Petty are elite SP at the AAA AA and now hopefully A levels.
Bell already said that Farmer is the starting SS going into spring training on his MLB interview he did after the trade today.
This team run by people who are looking to just get by with minimum effort.
Being the starting shortstop going into spring training doesn’t mean that he will be the starting shortstop for the season. Barrero needs to prove that he can hit MLB pitching. And a manager who does not treat his players(Farmer, in this case) with respect will lose the team.
Geez, Scherzer, Kershaw, all the pitchers have tweaks and hurts. If Sonny Gray is running out of gas, why did the Twins trade for him? The Twins have an astute front office.
Why did Krall not get Austin Martin? Could the Reds not use a high on-base, hitter capable of playing on the dirt or grass, most likely in 2022?
“There’s a plan?” Seriously, the (only) plan for Bob C. and the other owners is focused on their own financial protection. They do not care to field a competitive, championship capable major league baseball team.
The Twins have a habit of picking up older players in hopes they return to form. They are not really a small market team but close. They rarely have young starting pitching, so I would say this is their MO. They have had some sucess doing this but not always. Josh Donaldson comes to mind.
I have no problem with it. They got a first round pick for him and the Reds aren’t winning this year unless everybody has a career year. I have no problem building towards 2024. They need to get Greene and Lodolo pitching at the major league level this year to get comfortable on the mound against big league pitching. Hopefully Maclean and others will be hear next year and 2024 to contend. That 10 million isn’t going anywhere but Flea Market Bob’s pocket unfortunately. That is the bad thing. It’s all about getting the kids reps now and that means finding out what you have in Barrero. Love Farmer but he will not be involved in 2024. Play the kids.
A very pragmatic take, I’m with you on it. Solid return, and I’m wanting to see HG, NL both pitch up here this year. They still have some competition with Sanmartin, and Ashcraft in the mix.
I hope McLain gets some work at second base this Summer. If Barrero is long term answer at short then I could see McLain at second with India moving back to third.
That may very well be how things shake out. The big ifs are Barreo and McLain hitting at the ML level..
Not surprised to see Sonny go. Would have thought that they could have gotten more for him though. At least they didn’t go for a low-ceiling player that is close to the big leagues. Maybe they learned their lesson on that one. Seems like there is more to dump though if they aren’t planning on competing. I’d like to see them either extend Mahle or see what his market is. With the DH now, maybe there is a market for someone to take on Moose’s contract if the Reds eat some of it?
Another bad trade Nick Krall. You couldn’t have gotten a better return? Do you know what you are doing? Gray wasn’t being paid that much as starting pitchers go and you gave a minor leaguer away to for a pitcher who maybe good. You gave Wade Miley away, you gave Tucker Barnhart away. Since you are not going to contend for a 2-3 years you might as well trade Votto so he can get his world series ring. He deserves that. As for the owner if you can’t field a good team ,just sell it to somebody who can.
That is the mantra of Red’s ownership, keep kicking the “contention” can down the road, again.
To answer your question. No, this management couldn’t get a better return. Most other team’s management could. I will give them until the season starts to make some positive moves. Otherwise, after following the Reds for 63 years, I will no longer care what they do or any other pro or college team does(and I have been an Alabama football fan for about the same time). What professional sports(all) and college football has turned into doesn’t merit anyone’s support providing they have half a brain.
The Reds are probably just warning up. Look for the Reds to trade more starting pitchers. It’s all about cutting the budget. No focus on winning. The Reds are a major league farm team these days.
Isn’t it ironic that the two teams that played in the 1990 World Series together basically Major League farm teams.
Actually looking forward to this season. India and Tyler S building on rookie seasons. Anxious to see Senzel and Jose B and what they can provide. Can Suarez and Moose find there strokes for a full season. Can Votto duplicate last year. What can Naquin provide as a full time player.
Hunter Green and Nick will get their first taste of the big leagues.
Many quality youngsters will get another to build resumes in minor leagues.
While I don’t think we will contend I do believe we have enough talent to contend with the extended playoff format.
Suarez, Moose and Shogo need to have good seasons — well, good first halves — just so Krall can get something for them at the deadline. It won’t be much, of course, but anything would be better than nothing.
I have trouble thinking that Votto can duplicate last year without Castellanos in the lineup.
Fangraphs has Petty as the #14 prospect in the Twins system. I am hoping Fangraphs is wrong and BA is right and he is more fitting of #7. We will see.
They were by far the lowest on him in the draft rankings too and I think it is because they viewed him as a reliever.
MLB ranks him as 7. Do they rely on BA? It’s interesting bc he is by far their youngest on the list too, so that’s a factor.
The only rationale I find acceptable for this trade is if it “allows” them to sign an everyday outfielder such as McCutchen or Conforto. Two rebuilds within 10 years screams leadership malpractice. I don’t blame Krall for this, because it’s unfair to judge a man’s performance with one hand tied behind his back.
Seeing how the Reds have been managed the last couple of years both on the field and from the FO, why would any everyday player sign with the Reds? We should get the hint from Ozuna, Gregorius, and probably others who told the Reds no thanks and went elsewhere for less money.
I agree with Conforto but no on McCutchen
Conforto would be a great fit in Cincy
Conforto will be too expensive – McCutchen is both a) cheaper, and b) much more platoon friendly and defensively adaptable, especially if it’s a one-year deal. They need at least two more offensive players vs. LHPs, but they’re going to need even more pitchers than that.
The thing about the second rebuild is that it’s necessary. Do we really think that plugging a couple of fading former stars into the lineup will get the Reds into the WS? I understand the frustration, and share it sometimes, but reading most of the comments, you could easily forget that the Reds were in contention most of last season, outperformed almost all projections, and had exciting young players emerge.
There are better things to do than invest time into this team.
Now would be great time for Bengals to announce something big.
Not good. Gray was one of the leaders on this team with the intensity he brought with every start. We were in every game he pitched and traded for another project. Reds not even putting up a fight right out of the gate. Terrible trade. Was well worth the 10 mill to keep Sonny around.
At this point, the Reds need to go all in on the rebuild. If you’re not going to target free agents and actually try to get better for this year, then trade everyone who won’t be on the team starting in 2024.
Winker and Castillo should be next.
If they are tearing this thing completely down they need to look toward Toronto and how they built a really solid team. I’m another step closer to no longer following the Reds though with this business that we will try to be contenders and rebuild at the same time. IT DOESN’T WORK!!!
BTW, it didn’t take long for Krall to demonstrate that his comments the day before were pure BS. It’s going to be a really long season unless something changes quickly. I hope the return is better on Castillo and Mahle.
Maybe the Reds are Marie Condo-ing the team.
Sick to my stomach. How on earth do you unload Miley, Gray and Barnhardt and get basically nothing? I understand Bob is broke and the poorest owner in MLB, and can’t afford a MLB team, but any GM not named Krall could have gotten at least a couple of MLB ready players for those three.
Sorry, CoastMan, but keeping backup C Barnhardt @ $7.4M makes me believe that you would be a perfect fit for this front office/ownership.
Barnhart was projected as a backup in Cincy. He will be a starter in Detroit, and a good one at that. You are missing my point, Bob.
I’m all for moving on from him and giving the job to Stephenson. My grip is getting peanuts for him, nothing for Miley and a long shot high school kid for Gray.
Keep in mind that 34% of 1st rounds picks never even make it to the show and the ones out of that bunch that make it to the show and become studs are far less.
We have no idea whether this trade will prove to be a good one. Yes, most prospects fail, but the alternative–keeping a team stocked with veteran players through free-agency and trading prospects–is far from a sure thing. The Yankees have done this, and haven’t been dominant in any area except payroll.
He hit 102 mph in high school?
Sounds like the Reds just grabbed Hunter Greene Jr. with another flame throwing high school right hander who was a 1st round pick.
In a salary dump, giving that Gray was going to be moved regardless, I’m assuming many fans would happy to acquire the future value of Greene. This move essentially does the same thing – more or less.
Interestingly, both Greene and Petty had a 6:1 K:BB ration in the few innings they pitched in rookie ball.
For Gray, I don’t mind this, honestly. Gray’s season was injury-riddled last year. If they felt he wasn’t going to be ready, they would still be in this position. Right now, they can at least plan for it.
I just want to see what else they are going to do. Yes, all I see is firesale so far. But, we aren’t at opening day yet.
No offense Steve, but we have seen similar posts (not from you) where the poster says “yeah, they gave Wade Miley away, but I want to see what they do next” and “”Yeah they gave Tucker Barnhart away, but it’s still early in the off season, I want to see what they do next” or “Yeah they won’t re-sign Nick but they will save 18 million dollars I want to see how they use that dough”
The Red’s front office has shown us over and over who they are. At some point we have to believe them. How much more evidence do you we need?
No offense, Votto4Life, but they did bring in Nick, Miley, Moose, and Gray, just recently, and I bleieve at least 3 of those did pretty good for us. So, “Red’s front office has shown us over and over who they are”, I simply don’t understand what you are talking about.
Ok Steve,, perhaps you have missed the fact that the Red’s Front have traded/given away/lost Trevor Bauer, Nick Castellanos, Sonny Gray, Tucker Barnhart, Wade Miley and Michael Lorezen in the past year in return for …this 18 year old kid from Minnesota and a guy who hit .196 in low A ball last year.
If this is your idea of a good front office, then congratulations you should be very pleased with the direction of this team.
Scrolling through the comments though, I get the sense you are in the minority.
You want Bauer now? Nick hasn’t signed with anyone yet. If you keep Tucker, you’re trading Stephenson. Lorenzen underachieved while here, probably from our incorrect usage of him. But, he still underachieved. As well as, he’s coming off an injury riddled season, just like Gray. So, you have a direct line of communication to the doctors as to Gray’s and Lorenzen’s medical status?
You’re stretching for something that just isn’t there, that possibly hasn’t even come forth yet. Hey, come Opening Day, if I see no one else, I’m right with you. But, until then, there’s still a world of deals that can be made, for all the teams.
Sorry, but we aren’t going to be able to get the next Bench, Perez, Rose, Griffey, Morgan, Concepcion, etc., for a bag of beans. Baseball business isn’t that easy.
Steve when the Reds announce they have re-sign Nick Castellanos I will be happy to come on here and admit you were right.
Willing to do the same if they don’t?
What part of “Hey, come Opening Day, if I see no one else, I’m right with you” didn’t you understand?
Quick math but I’m estimating this puts 2022 payroll at about ~ 100 million assuming arbitration.
Here come a lot of cheap veteran signings to fill out the bench and Catching core and BP and SP insurance.
It was obvious when the Reds didnt pick up Miley’s option- they weren’t viewing 2022 as a winning window. It’s time to see which young players can breakthrough to join India and Stephenson as the leadership core of the next Reds era.
The Joey Votto era and career winning window just shut.
Everyone is saying now is the time to go all in for a rebuild. This team has never went all in the Front office picks their favorites and pays them which kills them on every time they do this. Instead they go on huge spending spree sign Moose, Shogo these contracts sunk this franchise. I hope they never sign anyone too a long term contract they should sign position players trying to reestablish there value use the ballpark to attract players. Develop pitching….lol but they aren’t very good at that either.
only silver lining is the reds actually do have a wave of hood young arms just about ready.
So if a couple of those guys take this opportunity and run with it this trade won’t look bad
good*
Stupid autocorrect
They also gave up a good young arm in this trade. Who will probably pitch more major league innings.
Well, I guess the new CBA’s anti-tanking measures are already a joke. As are the Reds. A joke.
I hate it, especially since it’s a two for one trade. I do accept that a $10mil signing might sway me but that kind of cash doesn’t get much anymore.
I tell, it was great while it lasted. I absolutely loved having Sonny Gray and I hope the young guns learned a lot from him.
It amazes me we keep talking about “windows” and a new “rebuild”. This isn’t about that. The Reds are not trying to win now or in the future. This is about putting the cheapest team on the field to turn a profit.
If you think the Red’s front office has a master plan, you are absolutely fooling yourself.
+2000
On the flip side — all the commenters at the Minneapolis Star-Tribune are wailing and moaning that the Twins gave up their No. 1 draft pick from a year ago for a “has been” pitcher.
https://www.startribune.com/twins-acquire-pitcher-sonny-gray-from-reds-for-first-round-pick-chase-petty/600155636/
He may be a talented player but he is only 18 years old. Only a little more than half first round picks even make it to the major leagues and even fewer make an impact.
Remember, Reds also gave up a young pitcher in this trade.
I’ve seen you respond with this remark a couple of times. I hadn’t heard of him before the trade and the stats cited weren’t impressive. But at 24 years old in AA – he isn’t young. He’s behind the minors curve and projects as a set up guy if he hits his potential. He was a veritable PTBNL.
The Reds have too many major league ready starters that are cheap to roll the dice on Gray. I love his intensity, his leadership and his connection to the team but this is the type of move a small market team needs to make 10 times out of
10
Grand, yeah I have no idea if the young guy the Reds traded with Gray will have an impact at the major league level or not. Most young pitchers don’t, even those selected in the first round.
I will say he has a pretty intriguing strike out/walk ratio (116/21).
I really have no opinion at all on the trade itself — other than that the Reds are obviously cutting payroll. That’s something we all expected. We’ll see how it all turns out, I guess. But I think it’s interesting that fans on BOTH sides of the deal are complaining they gave up too much for nothing.
That could be seen as a sign that it’s a good trade. It’s true that the odds don’t favor Petty being an impact player in two or three years. What do you suppose the odds are that Gray will be?
I cant belive we havent had Opening Day yet and already the Reds optimism is trending down. Usually doesnt happen till around the All-Star break. I dont care about the money, or the contracts. Im just a lifelong Reds fan. And I know pitching is everything in baseball. And it hurts to see an above-average starter traded for “the future”. We have to win now. Cant handle another losing season. And certainly not before the season even starts! I thought we had a good enough team last year to build off of not build from. Enough is enough.
I heard the Angels wanted to trade Garrett for Trout, but Kroll and Bob C wouldn’t do it, as it would misalign their budget.
+500
Ridiculous ownership! They would turn down my made-up trade.
I used to think that the red sox owner who sold Babe Ruth to the Yankees to finance a play was the worst owner in baseball history. I stand corrected. Bob C. is the number one worst owner.
At least the Boston owner got to finance his Broadway play NO NO Nanette via the Babe trade. What did the Reds get to finance?
Hopefully, this trade becomes Doyle Alexander for John Smoltz. . . but with the Reds’ past history, I highly doubt it!
I didn’t watch baseball for nearly 20 years starting in the late 90’s due to the PEDS era. I hate cheating. When I finally came back around to watching, I chose to follow the Reds since they were close to where I live (Central IN), had a good front office with Williams and looked to building the right way with analytics. This team is going to stink, and it is obvious the owner does not give a rip about winning. We’ve attended quite a few games, had TV packages just so we could watch them, etc. I’m done following this team until the ownership changes. I’d rather watch the Rays from 1,000 miles away – they are trying to win games and be agile like a small market team should be. I wish the Reds well, but I’m done spending time, energy and money on them (much like ownership). Adios, amigo.
Be honest, who had Mike Brown over Bob Castellini in 2022?
I see David Bell has been making public comments – as vacuous and content free as ever. Just not a serious franchise any longer.
He said that Greene is ready. That’s content.
David bell says nick senzel is healthy
C trent says winker senzel
Naquin is starting OF
DH by committee
Kyle Farmer is the shortstop but Barrero can force the issue
If a player is over 30 and mediocre, e.g., Farmer, Bell will start him. Someone needs to buy the Reds and clean house.
As sorry as this franchise has become, I don’t think that Kyle Farmer is the biggest problem. . .
I agree but he would be emblematic of the Reds overall. If Bell plays Farmer ahead of any of the other SS prospects, he is committing to playing a below average player WITH NO UPSIDE. The other guys have potential at least. Overall, excepting July and to a less extent Sept, he was really, really below average.
Cincinnati Pirates!!! Enjoy
Well, didn’t take long for the Reds owner to spoil the excitement of a CBA agreement and full baseball season. Very disappointing Ugh!
Let’s see now:
Castellanos – Save $17+M
Miley – Save $10M
Gray – Save $10M+
Barnhardt – Save $7.4M
$44/$45M saved. Any of it to pay 1 OF?
Bob –
That $44-$45M is to help Bob C. buy more produce.
They aren’t done selling yet.
Nelson, I totally agree with you. I suspect Winker, Castillo and Mahle will be
next. They may wait until the trading deadline, But at least two of the players mentioned will be traded at some point this season.
If Joey has a really good first half, he could be traded as well. Joey is getting close enough to the end of his contract to spark some interest, especially if the Reds pick up some of his salary or include a prospect (e.g. Chase Petty).
After last year, Votto has more value than Suarez or Moose. The question is would he approve a trade? I know Joey has says he wants to remain with the Reds, but I wonder, after this off season, if he may be wavering.
When a boss wants to dump an employee but doesn’t want to fire him, there are things (crappy work schedule, crappy job duties etc.) they can do to encourage the employee to just quit. Joey may be getting to that point.
I would love to see Votto get a ring. It’s obvious he won’t get one here. Such a shame. He deserved better.
I don’t think Joey will just quit and leave that much money on the table, but under the right circumstances he may wave his no trade clause.
I expect Mahle to be next,before the lockout Toronto was iinterested in getting him.If this happens 100 + losses is in the bag as of now 90-95
Not horribly off by this. If one of the three had to go gray was my choice…. we had a plethora of pitching talent behind him, the hole can be filled internally. Reds do.need to make some additions though in other areas. I will give a little benifit of the doubt on how the lockout messed everything up. Not much though
Who are the pitchers within the organization that have yet to PROVE to be capable pitchers in the major leagues?
MLB slotted Petty into our 4 spot on our prospect list behind McLain.
MLB is typically bad at ranking prospects. Just that they had McClain at #3 with Greene, Barrero, Lodolo, and DeLaCruz clearly ahead of him in almost every other national ranking should tell you all you need to know. (not to mention Ashcroft and Allen making a case to be ranked after those top 4 guys).
IMO, Petty likely slots in right after Roa and Bonnin, outside of our top 10.
44 million saved. Unless our payroll is going to be lower than the pirates, Rays and Athletics, we can now please stop the bleeding. Why is it that the Rays and Athletics have lower payroll than us, but are much better than the reds? I guess there are front offices, and the reds front office.
This comment should be beneath Bob Purkey’s comment.
Somebody call 911 – there’s a fire! Nope, just a Fire Sale! Reds management is NOT serious about fielding a competitive team! Sell the Team Bob and buy a green energy business!
being a Reds fan since the 70’s, there is one thing you can count on since the 1990 championship ……the reds are in a constant rebuild….i remember the “rebuild” in the years leading up to moving to the new stadium (quote: “were building to have a champinionship team when we move into our new stadium”) ….how did that work out…still waiting on that championship. The problem is, reds never win anything to rebuild after (like the KC royals did after winning a championship). It’s just rebuilding after another rebuild. You can’t enjoy watching a game (and the rebuild) remembering the chamionship the team just won because 1990 was a long long time ago!
At first I didn’t mind the trade until I realized Petty was only 18 years old. This is not the way to excite your fan base trading for somebody you won’t see until at least 2026.
I only have this to say, paraphrasing the old maxim by Branch Rickey.
Better to trade a player a year too soon than trading a player a year too late.
If this trade was the extent of the Reds off-season, it would be one thing. But losing Two starting pitchers, a gold glove catcher and your best hitter for two guys who were in low A ball last summer is another.
I mean if you enjoy waiting for a future that never seems to come, then you are excited I guess. Some fans like that. If you do, then you should get your fill with this team.
Trade Value simulator rejected the trade
https://twitter.com/baseballvalues/status/1503066777533657090?s=21
@Votto4Life
Seems the trade simulator is smarter than the Reds front office.
Jay, you are right! Seriously, I don’t think the Red’s front office is inept. I think they know exactly what they are doing.
Their goal is to slash payroll without any regard to how it effects the product on the field.
I believe Bill Dewitt used this same quote just before trading Frank Robinson 🙁
Well here we go again. Another rebuild doomed to fail. But keep buying tickets folks.
I’m not surprised by the Sonny Gray trade; over thirty with evidence of injury. Petty at age 18, if he doesn’t need too much time in the minors, could be a Bob Feller in the making. Before seeing what the Reds got, I was hoping for a young elite right fielder.
Sarcasm: “Could be a Bob Feller in the making?”
Sorry to offend you. Comment was meant to have a touch of humor. Just my opinion as a life-long Reds fan at age 85.
Well , he could be. We don’t know, do we? That’s the nature of prospects. This guy has a live arm and plus pitches. I like Sonny, loved watching him pitch, but he is is definitely NOT Bob Feller in the making, is he?
I too have not gotten an MLB subscription this year yet and I made sure to turn off my auto payment
Sell the team and bring a winner to Cincinnati like Bob promised. Drop prices until the product on the field is competitive.
Its not that they traded Sonny. Its the return. Miami got a nice young middle of the order hitter in Jesus Sanchez for a mediocre reliever.
Other then a fantasy team I’ve lost all interest and won’t be around much. I was actually disappointed they’re coming back. I wanted the KBO on ESPN again
Maybe Bob can drive them back to the park with pie eating contests before the home games? Security will have to keep Moose away, but it might be fun?
I agree on the return part. I don’t know Minnesota prospects, but in general Gray for a good AA SP in that #4-6 organizational prospect range plus a near ready bullpen guy would be better than an 18 year old.
Perhaps with DJ pitching philosophy they want the younger guys so they can control their development from 18-22 and not have to change things at AA or AAA. Very risky though. The fact the Reds basically get another 2021 first round pick without having to pay the signing bonus of $2.5 mil or whatever it was was probably the deciding factor. Good young arm, Minnesota paid the signing bonus, Reds add elite SP depth at the low minors on the cheap
I see no plan here, other than to reduce payroll by as much as possible. The return on a pitcher who projects as a #3 or so and who is under contract for $10-million in 2022 and with a very friendly $12-million option in 2023, seems pretty sad. The prospect is indeed high-upside but with substantial injury risk due to mechanics and questions about his ability to start due to potential command issues due to his mechanics. The Reds had a solid season last year and are on the final couple years of Votto’s career. They HAD a good rotation going into this year but have moved Miley for literally nothing and now Gray for a solid prospect. Instead of potentially spending more money, they are shedding it.
This is a team that signed off on the new CBA but from all indications based on their off-season activities, is a team that is apparently hemorrhaging money. I’m sure that COVID cost the Reds a lot of revenue and that they may have lost money over the last couple seasons, but these sorts of moves suggest they don’t anticipate to generate revenue this season. Who knows about revenue for future seasons? Why sign-off on a CBA in which your team apparently can’t come in at 1/3 of the payroll of top-spending teams? I am a bit beside myself. I’m wondering if baseball in Cincinnati just doesn’t work anymore? Is our local TV deal that bad? We just signed a new one a short while ago.
I know people want to point at Votto’s contract but it’s really not the problem here. The problem here is that the Reds apparently don’t have the revenue or don’t expect to have enough revenue to put $120-million worth of players on the field this year; a year in which, if things broke right, they could potentially reach the playoffs. The playoffs have been expanded as part of the new CBA. The Reds won’t get a sniff though. They’ve entered a rebuild apparently even before their compete window has closed.
As stated after the Miley waver, I am checked out on this team until further notice.
I agree to an extent, LW, but there is a qualitative difference between reducing payroll by adding young players and reducing it by adding over-the-hill vets. I am still perplexed by the Miley situation, but Tucker’s role going forward made him over-priced for the Reds, and Gray, good as he was, certainly was showing signs of wear and tear.
Not going to argue that it was wrong to trade Tucker. That move is the one that has made the most sense. I was disappointed in the return but considering Tucker’s likely value as a starting catcher for the Tigers and factoring in his salary for 2022, I am not sure the Reds could have done a whole lot better. His salary seems about on par for expected production so, although the return seems poor at first blush, it was probably almost as good as the Reds could likely have expected. One must keep in mind that every team knew the Reds weren’t going to pay Tucker over $7-million to be a #2 catcher. So, that probably factored into the return as well.
I love this post, LW, because it really highlights some important issues and questions, such as whether or not baseball can even exist in Cincinnati. I tend to think it is more of a Castellini thing.
I know it sounds odd, but if you look at this chart (https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2021/12/mlb-owners-net-worth.html), Castellini is the poorest owner in MLB at a net worth of 400 million. If we are in a situation where we can’t afford a 100 million dollar payroll then maybe we need an owner with more money. That begs the question — are the reds really loosing money?
We can’t see the books, but based on the last 2 years it is possible that we lost a little in that time frame — maybe….
Here is where it gets interesting, starting in 2022 every team will receive a share of at least 110 million through TV rights and revenue sharing. The reason I find that number interesting is because that is exactly where Castellini seems to be taking the payroll. It wasn’t disclosed, but Phil Castellini said that the Reds got a nice bump from the 30 million a year on the Fox Sports TV deal and that they also bought a minority stake in Fox, which increases it further.
We haven’t even gotten to revenues from attendance and other sources, and I don’t profess to be an expert on the expenses of running a MLB team, but it seems to me that some numbers are not adding up. Other small market teams had the same issues the last 2 years and don’t seem to be in this money pinch that the Reds claim they are in.
On last point to make is that I am not sure at all that we have seen the last of the salary dumps. I have a feeling the Reds are angling to get under 100 million.
Forbes estimates that the team is worth over a billion dollars. If Castellini is as poor as he seems to claim, maybe it’s time for him to cash out and sell the team.
Forbes had them losing money after 2020 season but that’s not surprising considering the pandemic crushed that year. Last year, things never really got off the ground. There are other expenses beyond MLB payroll but having said that MLB payroll represents most of a team’s expenses. If the Reds really are set to get $110-million plus whatever their TV deal is worth, then butts in the seats should pay for all their other expenses. If your figures are correct, then I would agree that there is no way the Reds should be losing money assuming they had a payroll in the $120-million range. No way at all.
Update: My worse fears are true that Castellini is going under 100 million. Winker and Suarez just got traded to Seattle.
I might add for peanuts. Looks like more of just giving players away to dump salary.
No, that’s a Bell-ism. He has no idea. They are simply deflecting from the Gray trade by telling the fans what they want to hear.