No, the headline is NOT a joke. I mean, it’s an absolute joke in the sense of what led to it happening, but the Cincinnati Reds decided to not pick up the $10,000,000 option on Wade Miley and placed him on waivers, allowing the Chicago Cubs to pick up the left-handed pitcher who led the Reds in ERA and WAR last season.
It would seem that rather than flat out declining his option and paying him $1,000,000 as a buyout, the team waived him hoping that someone would pick him up and save the team from having to pay the buyout.
Of course, the team could have simply picked up the option and traded him and not had to spend much money, either. But that could possibly mean risking the scenario where you have to write a check for baseball talent and that just seems to be outside of the scope of what team ownership wants to do.
As Bob Nightengale just tweeted…..
The #Reds surrendering before season starts https://t.co/vOJU6MBAVI
— Bob Nightengale (@BNightengale) November 5, 2021
Wade Miley is coming off of a season in which he threw a no-hitter, led the team in WAR (Baseball Reference), led the team in ERA, and threw 163.0 innings. He was the best pitcher on the team and the Reds literally just gave him away.
It’s quite clear that whatever the Reds budget is, it’s not low enough. In the last two days the Reds have traded Tucker Barnhart for essentially nothing, and put Wade Miley on waivers so that they could save $1,500,000.
Any idea that was out there that maybe the team would at least pretend to try and do something for 2022 has been obliterated before free agency even began. Cincinnati is choosing to not spend any money, anywhere. The ownership group doesn’t want to win. But hey, at least the payroll is aligning with the resources. Print the shirts.
Can’t wait to sign up for the Winter Caravan
There is no way there will be a caravan or if there is it will be without microphones for fans to ask questions.
What’s next, Reds take low ball trade for Votto then announce move to Montreal? Sheesh.
Might as well. Next thing you know, they will be holding pitching tryouts in the parking lot of GABP.
But why would he want to stay unless he and his family absolutely love the greater Cincinnati area? I mean, if I had any shot at all to NOT be with the Reds during this round of cost-cutting insanity, I’d be out the door. If I’m a player in Cincy right now, I’m telling my agent I want out of the Reds rinky-dink organization and the sooner the better.
I guess the cake eaters need more cake.
I know you are strict on cursing Doug, but that is the only thing that comes to mind right now. YOu have got to be kidding me. Hey Bob. Sell the TEAM!!
As I’ve stated for some time now we will not have a championship team until this ownership clan is run out of town! The problem is they the Castillinis are not rich enough. Most franchises have mega billionaires and they spend some of their own money from time to time ours does not. They are in it to make money to other owners it’s a hobby. I’ve been a fan since 1967 and this is the worst I’ve ever seen it! They are a mess and we ,the Reds’ fans have to suffer.!
Why doesn’t he sell the team? Isnt he rich enough by now so that he doesn’t have to destroy an MLB franchise? Go take his money and play with Bitcoin, like everyone else. Sell the team to some rich guy who actually wants to try to have a winner.
$10M for a reliable, proven performer, innings eater. Easy decision for the Cubs. It’s Christmas. Reds fans are going to enjoy it when he comes to GABP and handcuffs them with 88 MPH cutters all day long.
Very sad mismanagement under Krall.
Love the last 2 sentences in the article though!
This is not Krall doing this. Although he is a joke too. This is Castellini giving the finger to fans. Pure and simple.
Yes, this is NOT a Krall decision. My initial reaction is disgust.
Absolutely agree!
Now we know why Williams left. Pretty obvious.
Making Marge Schott look like George Steinbrenner.
I do not see why we could not have just traded him. Now I have to go to start rooting that this year was a one-hit wonder and hope that he starts a decline. Also really hoping someone makes an offer for the team.
It is really pretty pathetic barring the miracle of them make a trade or signing a FA.
My God my heart just sank so low! Sell the team Bob please sell the team! I’ve been a Reds fan since about 1963 or 64, 67 now so you do the math!
And I thought Marge Schott and her
Stupid dogs were bad news way
Back when!
My God Bob sell the
Team, please!!!!!!!!!!#####
They tried to trade him but there was NO takers. I’m ok with the moves (Meilly and Tucker) if they spend the money elsewhere . Team has a ton of young pitching to use.
If that were the case, of which I’m a bit doubtful considering Miley’s value versus his option, then they needed to go ahead and pick up the option, in the hopes that they could move him early on next season. If this team is really so poor that isn’t an issue, then the team probably needs to be relocated to a different market, assuming no major change to revenue sharing in MLB with next CBA.
These are the right moves by the Reds and had to be expected with the other, non player personnel moves. Krall might not have much of a track record as a GM but he’s shown he can clear money, so this is good in the long run as it indicates there’s no way the Reds can justify keeping one or both of Suarez and Moose on the roster, which should clear the way for more young (albeit cheaper) players to see the field and to begin the rebuild.
Miley was a great addition to the team but he clearly doesn’t fit the direction moving forward, if one can excuse that direction as being younger and rallying around a solid farm system opposed to just purging contracts.
They likely waived both Suarez and Moose and nobody claimed them, therefore, they are left holding the bag, stuck with the contracts. That is at least for now.
Obviously Reds ownership is banking that Reds fans are all very stupid and will continue to support the team. Do yourselves a favor pick a new team, it really isn’t as hard as it seems. Pick a premier team like the Yankees, Redsox, Cardinals or Dodgers. The Reds aren’t even willing to try anymore. I chose the Dodgers.
Georgia-born and bred here so likely will have to go over to the Braves.
I was a Braves fan for twenty years during the eighties and nineties. It won’t be painful at all.
Alabama, but I like the Braves also. Made me like them even more the way they were treated in reference to the all star game.
That was just wrong.
I grew up in NY State as a Yankees fan but I can’t go back to them. Probably Cleveland, Detroit, or Atlanta for me. I will still root for the Reds but just how much attention I pay to them may be diminished unless those young stud pitchers grow up fast, Barrero shows he’s ready for the big show, and Suarez reverts to what he was a few years ago. Otherwise, it will be a very long season in Cincinnati.
I am more a lurker here but I have visited this site for years and enjoyed it. But I am done. It is just not this move but the crap the Reds management has done over the years. They have given away so much talent for nothing and then left sniffing around trash cans for other teams discards to fill the massive holes they themselves have created. I grew up with the Reds and I was a fan prior to the Big Red machine. I have a picture of myself as a young boy at Crosley Field with Gerry Arrigo sitting on my desk. I have been in Huntsville, Alabama since `1992 have have resisted being a Braves fan all these year. But these guys have finally beaten me down. Sadly, goodbye Reds and hello Braves. It will be a pleasure to see a front office that wants to win and makes smart aggressive moves for a change when faced with adversity.
I wish i had a Bob Castellini voodoo doll and a red hot pin!!!
🙂
It would be really interesting to read Derek Johnson’s mind and hear his true thoughts when he heard this news!
You are assuming DJ was not involved in the discussions. It could have even been DJ’s input that sealed the deal. No one commenting on this site has any idea who had input and who didn’t.
And, to the earlier comment that they got nothing, they got $10,000,000 off the books. Maybe they could have gotten more, but they didn’t get nothing.
A lot of people think they know and like to spend other’s money.
Bummer. Although I’m not sure it’s quite as dire as the tenor of this site this week (greedy front office screws the fanbase). After all the Reds did pay him $6m for 2020 in which he was injured, and ended 2021 injured too. As solid as he was this year – and a stand up guy, easy to root for as well – the business decision/risk tied to his age/injury history could have pointed to no trade value at the $10m price point. If the Reds feel a combination of Greene/Lodolo/Hoffman/Ashcraft/etc. are ready, then I don’t think we want to have a $10m guy locked into a starting spot that is preventing internal prospect growth.
I think it’s just as likely that Miley finishes 2022 like 2020 versus 2021. Perhaps they will use the $10m to fix other, more glaring holes (bullpen/backup C/SS/OF.)
It’s what the Reds do with the payroll “savings” created by the Tucker/Miley decisions is what I will judge them on. Paying aging vets based on past performance isn’t the answer either; see Moustoukas, Mike.
Just like they used the releiver savings this year to bolster shortstop. Fool me once adage applies here.
Nailed it.
They did pick up payroll at trade deadline, and SS (surprisingly) wasn’t as big of a need as the bullpen at that time.
Too little and too late, IMO so I do agree with you to an extent but the facts do show they’ve spent money the last couple of years in excess of the decade before. (Miley/Shogo/Casty/Moose, etc.)
Yeah just like they used the savings from letting Trevor Bauer walk.
I mean I don’t know what some people need.
As Doug points out, The front office is being very clear, they are slashing payroll and they are not concerned about winning.
Yep!
THANK YOU!!! Someone with a good baseball mind. The 2 moves were good moves for the Reds. Again, if they spend the money.
This is so depressing.
+1 Million
I keep saying ok ok It’s early breath calm yourself….. Getting nothing out of it hurts my mind though.
So for October / November the Reds thus far on the offseason are a fat F grade
Take deep breaths.. You have your backup plan if this is what they are doing… Remember Blue Jays are a up and rising team… Sorry talking to myself so I don’t lose my mind.
One last thing The only decent move Nick Krall has made is getting the relievers at the break. Even that was late though like many have pointed out.
The Barnhart “trade” wasn’t a trade. They are so cheap they didn’t want to pay the $500k buyout so they found a team who would take tuckers contract before they had to pay the buyout. The player in return was just a smokescreen to make it sound like a trade, instead of a blatant salary dump.
They didn’t try that smokescreen with Miley. A waiver claim takes them off the hook for his $1 million buyout and the hope is the football weekend will drown all the criticism out.
This truly changes the entire 2022 season with Miley, Castellanos, and Barnhart gone. This is not a playoff team. Might as well trade Gray and finally go all in with youth and Garcia/India/Stephenson/Senzel/Gutierrez/ Santillan/Moreta with Greene Lodolo and Ashcraft soon to follow.
Jeff Hoffman in the starting rotation again coming out of ST?
The Reds touted the “trade” but never listed the guys batting average. Pretty pathetic, they said something like he was a 2nd round draft pick and hit 3 home runs. These guys running the reds are like a used car dealer pasting a bumper on a wreck and putting sawdust in the gas tank.
LOL!!
Well, they did replace one Nick with another Nick. Take heart.
It wasn’t a playoff team with Castellanous, Barnhart and Miley.
And it will never be a playoff team with what is running it. I will give them until spring training to do something positive toward winning or I will say adios after being a fan for 67 years(I know. No one cares, so why should I care?).
Doug usually does a pretty good job of giving the Reds management some benefit of the doubt but I’m thinking the Reds have exceeded even his creativity. With Castellanos, Miley, and Barnhart gone, payroll is down more than $30M. And the fire sale hasn’t really begun. But waiving Miley ranks up there as one of the most foolish moves I can remember. At least they could have traded him. I’m all for a youth movement but this is embarrassing. Can’t wait to see how absurdly they handle Akiyama, Moustakas, Gray, and maybe even Suarez. Certainly, Miley was a better investment than Suarez for roughly comparable salary. SMH.
Akiyama, Moustakas, and Suarez are almost certainly not going anywhere. They are being paid more than any other team is likely to want to spend on them, unless of course the Reds package a Greene or Lodolo with one or some of them, which I think is unlikely to happen. We can hope that the Suarez of September is the one we see in 2022 (assuming there is baseball in 2022) and that the DH comes to the NL, which would give Moustakas a place to play and perhaps stay healthy. Akiyama is a sunk cost and may well be released.
Things don’t look good, I agree, particularly since we probably haven’t got to the end of this cost-cutting. Either Gray or Castillo is likely to be next, but we ought to be able to get something for either or both of them.
The real problem here, I think, is the fact that there is no salary floor in MLB, as there is in the other major professional sports. I realize baseball is different in many ways, and there is little hope of an NFL (or an NHL) style system to be implemented. But the game itself is in real trouble, and finding ways of preventing one team from spending $50 million on salaries while another spends more than $200 million ought to be on the table at the next CBA negotiation.
Krall comments on C Trent twitter. He said they tried to trade Miley the last few weeks and had no takers. Krall said they were not attaching prospects to move money as in the past.
But “move money” is better semantics than salary dump- maybe.
2019 #getthepitching
2020 #getthehitting
2021 #aligntheresources
Why would anyone trade with the Reds knowing the Reds will simply dump the player on waivers and they get them free. Krall is already making himself look pathetic.
You got it LDS. All they have to do is sit back and watch the Reds fold. You could have signed him and traded him at the deadline, but that would cost money.
What would you expect to get in return for an aging, often injured SP on a $10m contract? Especially if he starts off slow/injured?
How can we assume that all front offices would be willing to pay/trade value for assumption that 2022 Miley = 2021 and not 2020 (and other prior injured years.)
They’ve got some other waiver moves that rank right up there but not as bad as this.
Phil Ervin had an even higher OPS versus LH pitching than Winker has against RH pitching. And he was a decent OF and base runner. They were a perfect platoon pair. Ervin was lost on a waiver claim ahead of the modified trade deadline in 2020. It wasn’t like he couldn’t at least have been DFA then waived after the date if they really needed the 40 man roster spot that badly and he was the only choice. At least from the Reds point of view, Ervin has bounced a couple of times and not come back to bite them except silently every time a LH pitcher shuts them down,
Ditto Jose Siri, lost on a waiver claim when Castellanos was signed. But now its looking like he may bite a little louder.
And the Red’s ownership says it wants to win?
They actually haven’t said that for awhile. The most recent message is about “aligning payroll to resources.” Couldn’t even throw in a “because we want to win” at the and.
I always see things through a positive light with the Reds. But this is such a BAD a move. Trading him would have been so much smarter. Bad bad bad move
I know what’s recently been said about the budget. At least Big Bob said he wanted to win when he took controlling interest in the Reds. Penny-pinching is nothing new with our favorite team.
True. Who thought telling us that they are “Aligning payroll with resources” was a good idea from a marketing viewpoint? Do they thinik we would not know what that meant?
Nick Krall might be GM because he is the guy with the least amount of self respect left in the Reds front office.
And no other real GM would agree to be Castellini’s errand boy.
I was having a good day, you know. A really good day. It’s Friday, sun is shining and then WHAT!!
Miley is a #2-3 starter on most teams and an absolute bargain at 10 million. If you really don’t want to pay him, his trade value is legit. Reds could at least get a few decent prospects.
Why!!!
Do you really think they wouldn’t have got something if they could? If they had traded him for 10 million would that have been OK? They would have got something. Well that is really what they did.
Hey MK, exactly. Whatever you think about Krall overall he’s not a buffoon as some brave posters sitting behind their desks might spout off. Of course he is going to try to get something that the team needs back if he can. That 10m might be used to meaningfully upgrade our bullpen which in my opinion is what we really need. While yes, Miley is worth the 10m at least we have SP options coming up that might just work out. We don’t have many if any I know of relief pitchers ready for the big show. According to https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/payroll/2021/
Reds rank 16th out of thirty teams in payroll. Cleveland ranks dead last and yet both are in the same state and considered small market teams. The Brewers are ranked 19th. Now you can argue mismanagement of the money spent but we are spending money. Just not enough to cover signing blunders, injuries and plain bad luck.
They tried to trade him for 2 weeks.How can you comment and not know this. Geez.
Jon the ever gullible believer. Good for you dude! Ownership loves you!
Man… I grew up in Dayton and I’ve been a Reds fan all my life and it’s killing me to keep trying. I moved to Chattanooga and was lucky enough to work for the Lookouts so it’s always been easy to pull for the Reds. Watching the Braves go all in and make the needed moves to do what they did…WHEN THEY WERE BELOW .500 AT THE ALLSTAR BREAK MIND YOU… is seriously making me reconsider my commitment to this team. Atlanta is only an hour and a half away and their management actually cares about winning.
Krall is just the guy with Bob’s right arm shoved up his designer suit pants……I could handle Tucker going because there was a good reason…..I am the good business guy this is definitely not good business. I feel sorry for Votto this team wasn’t far off from competing now they are literally blowing it up…
Castellini either doesn’t have enough money to field a competitive team or he’s too cheap to. Either way he needs to sell the team. Like most everyone on here I’ve been a fan my whole life and don’t give a hoot about bobble heads or any of that crap. Just win. That brings people to the park. I think Krall is doing exactly what he’s told.
I had a similar thought about Votto. I feel bad for him being a part of this organization.
“Print the shirts” … I like that quote.
I’ve got nothing on this. I mean, they couldn’t trade him for something? Even what they got for Tucker? A historically reliable starting pitcher, with a mostly healthy track record, coming off a strong season, and with a reasonable option year on his contract? Really? I mean, I almost would like to think that I could have worked out a deal for something.
Yep, I’ve got nothing at all. Team not only doesn’t want to win in 2022, it doesn’t appear they want to win at all.
I’m 51. I had a season ticket plan for 2019 but COVID killed that season. It rolled over to 2020 but no fans and then very limited capacity. The credit rolled over to 2021, but I felt uncomfortable going to that many games so my dad and I swapped in our credit for Diamond Club at a game. I watched way fewer games than I had in the past as well, and didn’t follow the team as closely. I used to post here several times a day and I didn’t even do that.
Now I wonder just how much I need the Reds to be in my life at all. I’d like to say I missed watching the Reds in 2021 but I really didn’t miss them much on days I didn’t watch, which was most days. I do admit that I usually enjoyed the games that I watched and that I enjoyed the game (a losing effort against the Nats) that we took in from the Diamond Club seats. That said, my love of the Reds is waning and that was with a decent team to watch. The pandemic and getting very sick back in December, leaving the hospital on Christmas Eve has definitely reset my priorities some. I may take in a game or two next year to spend time with my dad but I am not putting my time, money, or much energy into this team.
If I feel this way, I can’t imagine how others feel. I mean, I’ve been a die-hard fan for as long as I can remember. Baseball, and the Reds just aren’t that much fun for me anymore though. There are other things I want to do with my time and limited entertainment dollars.
I’m sure the Reds really don’t care about my feelings on this. I’m sure few of you do. I just had to get them out there in the one place that I feel people will ‘get it’. It would seem I’ve come back to RLN just in time to maybe check out again. I’m sure the couple people on here who I talk to outside of RLN will let me know if anything of any substance that I may have interest in will give me the 411. I don’t anticipate any good news from the team though. Yep, goodnight Reds. Turn out the lights. Don’t want to waste money on that dang electricity.
@LW,
How many fans are like you. You have been invested for decades and it is dying. Combine that with the lost generation that have never seen the reds being consistently good and where does this franchise stand for the future?
LWBlogger2 – I’ve always loved your post. Unfortunately I feel like the same way. I barely even follow now, but I had to check in on the old Redlegnations. Cause it was just ridiculous not to check in.
LW – I’ve seen your posts here for years now, and feel much the same way. I’m 57, been a diehard Reds fan since I was 8. I’m not giving up on them, but not for love of the team and certainly not of the management. And I used to be related to Bob Castellini by marriage! But I have always been invested in individual players, even when the team was bad. Sometimes awful. But starting with Johnny Bench and the BRM, then Barry Larkin and Eric Davis and Jose Rijo, and on to Joey Votto and Jay Bruce and even Billy Hamilton I’ve always had some Reds to really root for. I love to see the team win, but I also take great pleasure in following my favorite players. So I’ll still be watching every Votto at bat until he finally hangs them up. And now, almost certainly, excited to see Jonathan India, and Jose Barrero, and Hunter Greene excel each season. I guess I’ve found a way to love the Reds without getting completely disenchanted by the team’s lack of success. But I feel for you my RLN friend. This one is a brutal and blatant “we don’t care” to Reds fans. You simply can’t convince me that not one other major league team would have given any prospects in return for Wade Miley. I get it. Farewell LW. You’ll be missed.
An old man sitting on his porch after his wife passed away, grass about shin high, a man walks by and ask, when you going to cut your grass, man on the porch says, more important things than cutting the grass. For you, more important things than watching the Reds. So many of us never learn that.
I’ve been a Reds fan since the mid ‘70s and have followed this site daily since the Chad Dotson days. With Doug at the helm it’s the best it’s ever been and my go to source for Reds news. I check in multiple times per day year round. I try not to read the comments because I’m certain that the overwhelming majority of Reds fans are serial pessimists and I can understand why sometimes. At the risk of sounding crazy though I have become more nuanced in my 50s. By dealing Barnhart the team saved 7 million which should cover arbitration raises. Letting Miley get away like that wasn’t the brightest move financially but it’s not as immoral as Bowden signing Jeff Shaw at a team friendly contract (a local guy who had just built a house here expecting to stay for awhile) and then trading him to the Dodgers where his contract became worth even less due to the cost of living in LA. Remember, players are human beings just like us and not baseball cards or stock options. With Gutierrez, Greene and Lodolo ready or near ready, Miley was expendable and the savings can be applied to a new deal for Castellanos or his replacement. Maybe the two parties have already had discussions and the team knows how much revenue they need to get it done. Maybe the front office knows more than we do about a looming work stoppage next season. As for Moose, I tore my plantar fascia a couple of years ago and it was a full year before I was completely back to normal so we need a little patience there. Finally, as for the comment about budget, resources, youth, etc every team should consider all of those things. While it wasn’t phrased well it doesn’t necessarily mean another rebuild. Personally, I’m going to wait and see before predicting either 100 wins or 100 losses. The off season is just beginning. The GM and Winter Meetings are both still ahead. But like I said, maybe I’m just crazy…
I’ve been a diehard Reds fan for over 50 years, through thick and thin, but this is the last straw. Goodbye Reds.
I have you beat by around 17 years. I sure as heck am not going to subscribe to mlb.com again. Anyone in the Cincinnati area are fools if they attend games. I plan on watching the Braves for free. Like the post above, I am tired of being mad by the incompetence and lack of commitment. They wouldn’t even commit to a youth movement the last part of the season when all was lost. Instead, they brought in players over the hill who blocked the youngsters. How misguided can you get.
I’m completely, utterly baffled by this. No matter how I look at it, it makes ZERO sense in terms of trying to field an even marginally competitive team.
I seriously wonder if Suarez, Gray, and Moose are next. You say no one will take their contracts? What if the Reds literally just dump them for nothing and agree to pay half? At least they’ll be saving that money!
I’ve been a Reds fan for over 40 years, and I’ve been through some pretty dark times with this team. But the way this front office has been operating the past decade, it may just finally be enough to turn me off to the Reds for good. Why should I give my time and energy to a team that’s not interested in creating a good time for me? I want to win. I want to watch an entertaining team. We haven’t really had that except for very brief flashes in the past 10 years, and it looks like we’re well on the way to another Decade of Darkness.
This offseason might just be the final straw, depending on how it plays out. But not a very encouraging start.
If they waive a guy and somebody takes them, it cost the Reds zero, this year or next or the year after or however is left on the contract. The way the waiver system works, unless there is a leak somewhere, we will never even know they went through unclaimed because the team isn’t going to release them and owe the entire remaining contract. So, it is possible a bunch of guys (Moose to lead the parade) have already been sent through.
Here’s a thought. You have an above average starting catcher and solid starter signed to super friendly contracts. Pick up the options and find a trade at the winter meetings or in spring training when teams will be getting desperate to fill holes. You might find something better than a .190 hitting single A scrub.
“No, no, no silly fans,” barks Castellini. “I’m so broke I don’t know where my next loaf of bread is coming from. I can’t afford that.”
Okay, then here’s my other thought for Big Bob — THEN SELL THE DA$# TEAM TO SOMEONE THAT WANTS TO WIN AND CAN MAKE SOUND FO DECISIONS!
What an absolute punch in the gut. I honestly don’t know if I can continue to follow this team.
It does look like Justin Wilson exercised his player option so there is that. When the players show the team more loyalty then the FO
Where are all the apologists on this board now?
They’re saying wait and see. The Miley business makes no sense unless there is a plan to use the money saved to better the team. Do I believe that that’s the case? No, not really. But it’s November and I’m not going to try to conclude much at all until I see what the roster looks like in April.
And it’s sad there will still be nitwits saying it’s all Bells fault after they finish 25 games under .500
Probably the same nitwits who were all in for dumping India prior to 2021 season.
But wait wait….we have to give the Reds FO the benefit of the doubt!!!
Not the benefit of the doubt, exactly, but maybe not assuming it’s all in ruins until we see what else happens. Good young players in the pipeline, so they might be exciting to watch. I like watching a bit of baseball on a summer evening.
One other thing, instead of just posting here and on other blogs we need to send a message directly to the Reds FO and Big Bob to let them know just how thrilled we are with the ignoramus front office moves. I can only find ticket information. Does anyone have phone numbers or email addresses for the FO?
Unbelievable
Truly unexplainable
After playing on his 6th big league team Miley had a career year and will be 35 next year. Not like Sandy Koufax just got away.
Thank you. A voice of reason in the sea of panic/fanaticsim.
You guys are saps, little Bobby loves your gullibility, lol.
Unlike others who leave the game early and miss a late inning comeback. The offseason is literally just beginning and some of you act like we are done. I’ll join you in March if they haven’t reinvested some of these savings into strengthening their roster.
Nick Casallanos is the big loss, but it’s not like the organization could do anything about that.
Give them the offseason to reshape the roster for next year. These first few moves are defendable assuming other ones are coming.
**double post** replying to Vegasred
True, but we just gave him a away for nothing. That’s the problem. For a very minimal investment we could have picked up a couple of prospects and kept him away from a division rival.
Unlikely. The evidence is that 4 teams passed WITHOUT even losing any prospects. What makes you think the Reds would have received anything of prospect value for the cost to them of picking up the option?
We all value Miley for the awesome memories he gave us in 2021, but I think the consensus is that he’s not worth the risk of much more than $10m in 2022. Obviously now, not to the Reds.
Just the Reds best starter last season.
Unlike others who leave the game early and miss a late inning comeback. The offseason is literally just beginning and some of you act like we are done. I’ll join you in March if they haven’t reinvested some of these savings into strengthening their roster.
Nick Casallanos is the big loss, but it’s not like the organization could do anything about that.
Give them the offseason to reshape the roster for next year. These first few moves are defendable assuming other ones are coming.
A back up catcher and right handed hitting OF @ $3 million is all you get plus some non guaranteed pitching invites to ST
Thats it. They dumped $33 million in 3 days . They will add 3-5 mil more
Budget is mid $120’s and they are at $122 million now
Please post in March
Sure. As long as you compare the backup C and 5th SP production at the end of 2022 to Miley/Barnhart’s.
Maybe you should just buy front row season tickets – regardless of whether you can afford them – so the Reds can raise their budget. This isn’t the gov’t that can just print money. Budgets do exist for a reason, sometimes it’s all there is to spend. I don’t know if they are generating positive cash flow to raise the expense/payroll budget number, do you?
3 “you’s” in that reply plus a government reference
Aint about me or the government
Stay on topic
Bad enough that the reds let him walk, that they let him go to a division rival. It means the Reds will see him at least 1-3 times next year. Karma says his next no-hitter will be against the Reds.
I understand we have two high-prospect pitchers ready in AAA, but no way they’re going to pitch like Miley. Miley had more innings by July then Lodolo in his whole career. Green was a 4+ ERA pitcher in AAA.
Just makes no baseball sense (make great money sense).
I am done. Fan since 1960. I ain’t got enough time left to waste on a team that won’t even try to win. This former Poster boy for P. T. Barnum is done. But I like nose to the grindstone Doug, so I won’t cancel my Patreon subscription.
‘No trades available’. It’s the lying not simply the fake cries of poverty that bother me more. Actually, it’s all dishonest garbage. Can’t wait to see their reception at Redsfest.
Trade Sonny…….NOW, because there’s simply no point in holding onto him during a rebuild. As we learned with the last ‘rebuild’, you can’t be half in and half out.
After that you simply pray Geno or Moose establish some semblance of value next season and you EAT whatever amount of salary necessary to facilitate their departures.
When they trade Sonny(not if) they will only get a bucket of balls if that. The other teams have to see a bunch of suckers when they negotiate with them.
Or a box of cracker jacks…. Yea, they’ll trade him for another single A .190 hitter just to dump his salary.
SELL.THE.TEAM.
Yes.
They saved 10 million they’ll “reinvest” in lettuce and carrots. Sell the team. I’m so sick of the Castellinis. They think that we should love them for keeping the Reds locally owned. Personally, I’d rather the team be owned by some billionaire hedge fund guy in NY who wants to win. It’s sad when Mike Brown is the owner in town most committed to winning.
Yes that should be the chant from the 1st inning through the 9th on opening day “SELL THE TEAM’
Just heard the Reds have released Hunter Green because he will make too much money when he reaches arbitration. After what has happened with Tucker, Nick, and Wade this sounds like the truth. I wish Bob Castellini would just sell the team for a billion or two and spend it on something he really likes since he’s so broke.
Nick exercised his option not the REDS. lol.
Here is the current 40MR depth at SP:
Luis Castillo
Sonny Gray
Hunter Greene
Vladimir Gutierrez
Jeff Hoffman (assume he will get non-tendered)
Tyler Mahle
Riley O’Brien
Reiver Sanmartin
Tony Santillan (assume he will permanently move to bullpen)
Jared Solomon (assume they will try to clear him through waivers and then outright)
That’s 10, before accounting for any of these SP’s coming off the roster.
CIN used 10 SP in 2021 and 9 SP in 2019. That may mean they will go with the list above or add and subtract from here. I think it will be the latter.
On average, CIN loses about 3-4 SP’s from each prior season (some are marginal SP’s and some move to the bullpen). I think Santillan will move to the bullpen.
Assuming Hoffman goes, Solomon stays and Santillan goes tot he pen, CIN is looking at 8 SP’s. That means they may add 1-2 more SP’s to their 40MR.
Unless Castillo or Gray are traded, I think CIN’s O/D 5-man rotation reflects the following:
1 Castillo
2 Mahle
3 Gray
4 Gutierrez
5 Sanmartin or Greene
That would place O’Brien and Solomon at AA/AAA with options. That also points to the acquisition of 1-2 SP’s with options to reside at AAA and offer depth.
If either Castillo or Gray are traded, that is the sign of a focus to rebuild. That would likely land more depth at pitching (but not the quality).
Very interesting to see how CIN addresses its SP the rest of this winter, assuming we have a new CBA and not a stoppage.
I would be shocked if Sonny Gray is in the Red’s rotation on Opening day. I think the odds of Castillo and Mahle being around is only 50-50.
They say they found no takers in trade for Miley, but…….the 5th team that was eligible to select him, did.
There were 24 teams remaining in the waiver order.
You can’t tell me that one of those 24 didn’t want Miley more than the Cubs did, and wouldn’t have offered the Reds “something” so that they could get him in advance of waivers. Literally no chance of that in my view.
Pathetic Reds FO.
Who actually believes there were no takers on Miley? How long did they try to put him on the market.?
And how do the fans of those 24 other teams feel considering they could have had Miley for a what the Cubs offered (nothing) plus anything? Interesting to see if anyone recalls this next year when in search of a LH SP.
On a much bigger scale, recall that the greatest Catcher in MLB history was chosen with the 36th pick in the draft. 15 teams passed on him twice.
I’m willing to bet, there were no takers for exactly that reason. Other teams suspected, and rightfully so, that the Reds would place him on waivers and thought they’d take their chances that another team wouldn’t claim them before they did. Now, Chicago did take him and fairly early. The Cubs look to be in a rebuild. So, I think they are going to pick up his option and move him sometime during the season for value. Maybe the Reds just don’t have the money to do that but that’s a huge problem if they don’t. If the Reds can’t afford taking that sort of risk, then they will not be good again anytime soon.
I will still say. . .I have no problem with this. Just what are they going to do with the money they saved?
I do definitely like having a lefty in the starting rotation. And, I felt that Miley would have been a bargain.
But, at the same time, Vlad and Tony did do a good job, I believe, subbing for injured pitchers. Where, I believe the Reds may be looking for them to do a bit more this upcoming season.
What do we have so far coming back? Gray, Castillo, Mahle? Gray, I’m questioning how far he can go now. He’s been often-injured the last couple of seasons. But, when he has been on, watch out. He’s got to get these physical kinks out, though. If Gray an stay healthy, I would be our starting rotation would be alright. Again, I would rather have a guy like Miley in it, an experienced lefty. But, I can accept what we would have. . .as long as the Reds are going to do something else with the money. Turn it over into someone else.
What gets to me is “how” they let Miley go. Waivers? Good Lord! Trade the guy and try to get something back anyhow? I mean, they should have just done that would Tucker, with what we got back for him.
In short, for me, barely an alright move to make. A horrible way to make it.
They are aligning their payroll with their resources.
They saved 10 million they’ll “reinvest” in lettuce and carrots. Sell the team. I’m so sick of the Castellinis. They think that we should love them for keeping the Reds locally owned. Personally, I’d rather the team be owned by some billionaire hedge fund guy in NY who wants to win. It’s sad when Mike Brown is the owner in town most committed to winning.
In the past 3 days we have given away our best hitter, best pitcher and a glove glove catcher. In return we have received a minor leaguer who hit .192 last year. But by all means, let’s give the Reds front office the benefit of the doubt.
Sonny Gray will be given away by the end of the month.
So so true. SELL THE TEAM BOB
They didn’t give Castellanos away: He exercised his option. They can still make him an offer. They might not do that. They might do that but the offer wouldn’t be competitive. He probably won’t be with the Reds in 2022, but they didn’t give him away. Miley and Barnhart are a different matter.
Nick left the team the reds didn’t get” ride of him.”
We are now the 4th best team in the NL Central. By Christmas, we will likely be neck to neck with the Pirates for last place.
I don’t think it will take that long
Next season might be the first time I’ve boycotted the Reds if this how it’s going to be.
Cue the George Takei meme … “OH MY!!”
Unless there was an injury that hasn’t been disclosed, this makes zero sense.
Sell the team Bob!
I’m not at a point where I’m ready to boycott the Reds, but enough is enough. Bob if you can’t run the organization, then sell it, cash out, and let the Reds fans enjoy baseball again.
Yea, let’s start the, “HEY, BOB, SELL THE DA&* TEAM” movement.
MBS: agreed! The only thing that makes any sense….not that anything the Reds’ FO does makes much sense!
after 1976 season did the reds not have money for gullett and perez
This is just a HUGE, and I mean HUGE strategical blunder to just give Miley to a division rival. They could have controlled where he went via trade. But to have him claimed by a division rival for 0 return is the worst FO decision I have seen in recent memory.
There is just no way to make sense of this blunder through any lens whatsoever.
I am dumbfounded any team executive of any team in MLB could be so blatantly stupid as this. Every time we face Miley next year, we will think of this stupid, ignorant move by the FO.
My bet is not stupid. Krall looks like Castellini’s yes man and it’s likely all about lining the inner circle’s pockets. Sad state of affairs.
Reds’ FO might not even be smart enough to give Castellanos a QO……
WOW! I never gave that a second thought because that’s what any team would do, but I’ll bet you are right that they let him go for nothing out of fear that that he may accept it if he doesn’t find a better deal. Nonsensical and irrational, but that seems to be the order of the day for this FO.
OK, I’m in.
“HEY, BOB, SELL THE DA&* TEAM”
Does it may any sense that they are dissolving assets to sell the club? We can only hope.
“The ownership group doesn’t want to win. But hey, at least the payroll is aligning with the resources. Print the shirts.”
“We will build one of the most respected organizations in baseball. As partners in other successful baseball organizations we know how it’s done.” ~Bob Castellini, W. Joseph Williams Jr. and Thomas Williams.
It seems that Red’s fans now have their own “Brandons?”
Teams will be lining up to give the Reds pennies on the dollar for Sonny Gray, Luis Castillo, Jesse Winker, Nick Senzel, et al.
Today I am very disappointed in the Red’s ownership.
With Senzel, it would be pennies on pennies. Sorry I can’t help myself, Senzel trolling is too tempting.
Yeah I don’t understand not signing him and then trading him??????
Starting pitching is still a strength for the reds after this …
But I’ll be ok with this if the actually use the money saved here and on Barnhart’s trade to improve the rest of the roster ( resign or replace cadtellanos)
But they could of done that after trading Miley too
With Winker, Castillo, Mahle, Naquin and Cessna all headed to arbitration I suspect there is more “aligning” to come.
Losing Winker or Mahle would be the ultimate sign to me that the Reds don’t plan to compete for at least the next 5 years.
That is who they are building around, not oft injured, aging pitchers and overpaid backup catchers. Extreme overreaction to expected moves. I’ll change my tune if they start dumping Winker/Mahle types. No way it happens……unless they get offers of greater value.
In no way are these core – and in prime years – players comparable to oft-injured and aging pitchers and overpaid backup catchers. No way this happens…..unless someone offers good value.
This isn’t the federal gov’t where there is no such thing as a balanced budget. Every $1.5 million saved could pay for a decent BP arm and Lord knows we can’t have too many of those!
**double post here** meant as a reply to Votto4life
You forgot to mention the all star Right fielder and number 3 hitter who is no longer a member of the Cincinnati Reds.
Frankly, who really cares if a 4th place team has an extra $1.5 million to invest in the bullpen. Assuming, and it’s a big assumption, they will actually reinvest that money in the bullpen.
Did I miss Nick Krall saying they will
Invest the savings in improving the bullpen?
That was Nick’s option and right. You cannot hold it against the Red’s FO that a player opted out for more money. In fact, until he signs elsewhere it’s not even guaranteed he won’t be back.
I think people are over-reacting over the Miley/Tucker moves made by the front office because they are pissed that Nick opted out. And, it’s a big loss that if they don’t fill will be a reflection on the front office. But they are decisions made by different camps, and cannot be judged together.
Way, way too early to judge the front office for these moves.
Sell the team bob. You could put a billion in your pocket! I just want an owner and front office that wants to win. That ain’t you bob.
When I read the headline I thought it was a joke. Sigh….. Loss for words. I too don’t buy the “we tried to trade” I call hogwash..
Keeps on getting better. “Sigh” Barnhart and Miley were bulldog type players. I wonder if Votto is having second thoughts about finishing his career here now? Request trade Votto!! Get out of this organization!!
Has Votto ever been on a Reds team that even won the division? He has to be discouraged.
2010 and 2012.
Discouraged all the way to the bank every pay day. He is the big fish in a small pond, and that is likely fine with him, especially considering what he might have to go through in less friendly towns. His resume has some holes in it, seasons when he wasn’t available to the team.
I hope Votto can be a part of more winning seasons before he retires. Might have to get traded for that to happen.
I’ve been a Reds fan since 1970 but I can’t take all these losing seasons much longer, I’ll be dead before the Reds have another winner. I’m jumping ship to the Braves.
miley is thirty five with a perhaps serious injury that sidelined him the last month of the season. greene, lodolo, ashcraft and sanmartin are the future; miley, as lovable a teammate and good a pitcher as he was, is the past. maybe they’ll use the savings on the bullpen. or re-signing castellanos. and if a frog had wings, as mccabe said to mrs miller, he wouldn’t bump his ass so much.
It would make sense if they were to do that but like you mentioned. A frog doesn’t have wings and right now the Reds brass appear to be frogs.
I drank that kool-aid with a SS last year. No thanks, I’m not thirsty this year.
Even though we all thought it obviously would, ironically SS wasn’t why they missed the playoffs. It was their bullpen and 3B mess.
Plus, some hitters ran cold the last month and we had injuries.
(Winker, Votto, Naquin, Senzel and NC). The players off the bench did not produce other than Strock and he only came up and was allowed to play the last few weeks of the season.
I have been a a Reds fan for at least 70 years (79 years old) and I never have seen anything like the way this franchise has operated the last couple years. I had season tickets from 1977 to 1994 and attended around 40 games a year from the late 60’s through 1976 so I feel I know a little something sbout the game. They have an owner who lied to the public when he said he wanted to win. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don’t recall hearing him say a word the last year or so. Apparently, he is afraid to face the public. They have a so called general manager who has no business being in that position because of his lack of background. It is certainly comforting to us, as fans, that he is making these decisions (I am being facetious since we know he isn’t because he is probably the cheapest “yes man” Castellini could find.) And, of course, it flows right on down to Bell. I see no way they will ever be a winner again in my lifetime.
They have become an embarrassing, laughing stock around the baseball community. Barnhart trade made some sense by not paying a backup catcher that much money but surely they could have received something more for him. The writing was on the wall, however, when Krall made that ridiculous “balance payroll to resources” comment. Further writing on the wall when he commented that same day that he “hadn’t had any conversations with Boras regarding Nick C.” And, then the next nail in the coffin, not only do they absolutely give away their best pitcher from last year, they give him to the Cubs. Nothing like strenghtening a division rival and getting nothing in return. I guess they never thought of that. I read somewhere that the White Sox had expressed interest so, if that is true, Krall wasn’t being truthful when he said there was no interest.
Lots of free agents available. Can’t imagine they will sign anyone of value when they can go back to the scrapheap. Free agency just starting and team is down Nick C., Miley, Barnhart, Lorenzen and Gyvens.
Really sad to be a Reds fan after knowing what it used to be like. I love the fact they have young guys coming up but they have to balance their roster with free agents.
You pretty much nailed it. I think most Reds fans feel the same way. We put out time, hopes and trust in them only to be lied to.
I am not talking about winning, but giving a reasonable effort to win.
I’ll be glad when everybody who says he is done, actually bows out. It will greatly cut the number of useless comments I need to scroll past in order to get to those that are actually thoughtful, and thought provoking.
It seems to be more like 90% who post disagree with you. Everyone has a right to post whatever they want (within Doug’s boundaries) but you have to see that less than 10% of the posters agree with you. Either you are wrong or 90% of the posters are. What gives you the right to tell someone to not post their opinion? We have to listen to yours as well. I will probably check out in due time but it won’t be because you told me to. It would be great if the software had an ignore button. You would be first up for me and I am sure I would be for you. I will probably get banned for saying my mind while you have been getting away with attacking posters for a while.
Well Said!!!
+100
plus I will buy the shirt “The payroll is aligning with the resources”
Well said Alan. Everyone here has supported this team for years and in most cases decades. To me that entitles each of us to our opinions.
Those who don’t like reading opinions they disagree with probably should spend less time on the World Wide Web.
To be fair, Allan, he didn’t say that anybody shouldn’t post.
At the upper part of the posting he called posters who disagree with him nitwits. He has been doing such for a while. I have no animosity against those who disagree with me and we all should be respectful of the opinions of others. He doesn’t have to read what someone posts. It is a choice. If he sees my name on a post or anyone else he disagrees with……. Don’t read the post. It is pretty simple. Like I mentioned, it would be nice if the software had a poster ignore button. Then they would never see anyone’s posts who they put on ignore.
I agree that you are unfailingly civil.
This comment reminds me of another diva. The one from California that now temporarily resides in Green Bay.
Most don’t know, Nick was not let go…….they tried to trade Meilly for 2 weeks.
Hey doc, still waiting for a useful comment from you. Chanting the company line isn’t any more useful than criticizing the owners for lack of winning leadership.
Doc Castellini
I’m not the guy for this job, but starting a petition attempting to get Castellini to sell the team might get traction. If, I don’t know, getting a million folks to boycott games until he does couldn’t hurt. You’re not getting paid by the Reds are you, Doug? Lol
Are the Reds going to be rebuilding again? THEY BETTER NOT BE! I’m so tired of having my heart ripped out of me this organization. They were so close to beta true contender and now it looks like they are throwing it all away! Shame on you Bob and Nick! Why don’t you think of the fans and keep it quality team on the field and spend the money and build on to it!
In no way are these core – and in prime years – players comparable to oft-injured and aging pitchers and overpaid backup catchers. No way this happens…..unless someone offers good value.
This isn’t the federal gov’t where there is no such thing as a balanced budget. Every $1.5 million saved could pay for a decent BP arm and Lord knows we can’t have too many of those!
So after sometime to digest. Greene Lolodo, time seems to be now. Reds have the pitching to absorb this loss. I don’t like it, nor am I making excuses. Just sounds like they are ready to bring up the studs from minor leagues. Their time is now.
I think you’re right overall, but I’m not totally convinced the tradition- bound Reds are going to become a youth centered Tampa Bay type operation.
Chad brought this up on his podcast. Williams presented an option to ownership on running on a TB model and Bob shot it down.
I think Greene, Lodolo and Ashcraft are the future. I am just not sure the future is the beginning of the season as Greene and Lodolo haven’t mastered AAA. On the other hand, a pitcher who throws 100 mph stands a good chance of blowing out his arm again, so why waste his arm in AAA. Another good thing is they will be cheap for the near future.
Good points Alan!
Agree.
This may the must inexplainable move I can ever recall with the Reds.
Not even close. See Chapman’s departure for that.
If I actually believed the Reds were going to utilize the money saved to upgrade RF and/or the bullpen then I could probably get behind the latest moves. But I don’t believe that because the Reds prove over and over again that they’re cheapskates and don’t care about winning. It would have been hard to have a more dismal offseason than last year, but apparently Big Bob said “hold my beer”
Exactly. I can understand fans hoping the Reds will reinvest the savings back into the team. But, the team is not even pretending that’s the case. In fact, they are pretty much telling us it’s not going to happen.
I fault this front office for a lot of things, but they’re not misleading us.
And, yet they were in the playoff hunt the majority of the year with the worst bullpen I can ever remember for over half of it…..and ended with a better record than the year before even following the “most dismal offseason”.
And, then they *did* add payroll at the deadline to try to upgrade the bullpen albeit way too late IMO.
The worse moves would be to hold onto veterans at the expense of opening opportunities for your future when they are ready.
Tucker and Miley weren’t significant parts on next years team, when expected comparable players could be had for half the price that they will be paid in 2022.
I really don’t think it’s that hard to see. (The $18m that Nick left on the table needs to be used for 1-2 impact players though, or else I would expect that will set them back noticeably but that was not the Red’s FO choice although it is now their challenge.)
You make a lot of sense as far as being part of the team next year. That is not the point that a lot of us are making.
What is upsetting is that the team is so broke, or stupid, that the FO can’t make a small investment in picking up those options and then trading them between the winter meetings and spring training when teams are looking to fill holes. You still unload the salaries, but also get something in return.
That said, if you think they are going to reinvest that 18 mil in salary then you are drinking the kool-aid. I guarantee you that won’t happen. Krall has already nixed that possibility when he said we needed to realign the payroll with available resources.
You’re probably right about the liklihood of them reinvesting the $18m, but I agree with the FO that Miley/Tucker aren’t worth their contract values for 2022 and they saved $1.5m by cutting them loose now (and possibly more if there is a lockout.) No one is going to take on their contracts AND give good prospects to boot. Not now, not in March. Perhaps if Miley had another strong start to 2022 you could flip him at the deadline but that’s a pretty risky bet considering his age/injury history.
If their budget does have to be reduced, how is the best way of doing it? Playing youth, and ditching overpriced vets! Small market teams winning have to do it with cheap – young – talent before they get paid. Maybe a few vets sprinkled in, but too many (Votto/Nick/Shogo/Moose/Eugene/Miley) lock up the roster/budget. If they could shed a few more, I think that would be good. They have to get rid of either Moose/Eugene, I just don’t see how they’re going to be able to without packing with some good prospect value. Maybe Eugene can play RF?
Yes they were in the playoff hunt until the end. Think of how things may have gone if the FO didn’t tear the bullpen apart or actually found and upgrade for SS like they prioritized at the beginning of the last offseason as their main goal. (And not to make this about Farmer, because he had a solid season overall and played about as well as could be expected, but was was still below average).
But the Reds weren’t better last year than 2020. Their winning percentage was slightly better in 2020 than 2021. They finished in 3rd both seasons but were much further back of 1st and 2nd in 2021. They made the playoffs in 2020 (though wouldn’t have in normal seasons). If the FO had done anything at all to add to the team instead of subtract, this could have been a really fun year. Instead they had a dismal offseason.
And I think it’s incorrect to say Miley wasn’t a significant part of 2022, he was the Red’s most consistent starter and had the most WAR on the team. Every bit of that is a guy who should be a significant part of team.
Since “It’s quite clear that whatever the Reds budget is, it’s not low enough,” the fans should help out the ownership meet their budget target by not buying any more tickets, watching them on tv, or even showing up for their caravan. With very little revenue, and having the Christmas spirit, then they shall give away more players and meet their budget. This ownership does not deserve a “Reds nation.”
The other side of the coin of these moves is to commit to Miley/Barnhart and block the young’ins (Green/Lodolo/Stephensonetal)…..you know, kind of like signing Moose/Suarez ended up blocking India and screwing up the roster flexibility this past year. How’s that aging? Can’t have it both ways, and it’s not a guarantee either way. But, that’s why I’m not jumping off the bandwagon or accusing the FO for being bad at their job or worse. We have clear – and present – roster proof that the alternative can actually be worse. So thanks, Wade (and Tucker) best of luck in your new digs and I’m looking forward to fresh/young/new blood that I expect will exceed the production of these lost players….beginning next year and certainly over the next 3-5.
Huh, that’s called a rebuild
Since 1984:
Under Schott – Reds had 9 winning seasons, 6 loosing seasons and 1 .500 team.
Under Lindner – 1 winning season and 5 loosing seasons
Under Castillini – 5 winning (2 of which where a 31-29 and 83-79 last 2 years) and 11 loosing seasons
Reds have had 6 winning seasons over last 22 years
I grew up during the watching the 2nd half of of the BRM and love baseball. My kids like baseball but could care less about the Reds. Wonder how many other of the next generation of baseball fans the Reds are “pushing away”
Wow! In stark numbers. What did Big Bob say when he took over about bringing a winning tradition back to Cincinnati?
Maybe an Occam’s Razor explanation that fits is that the Reds really are tapped out? If so it is time for ownership to sell to someone who can afford to swim in the deep end of the pool.
The economical equivalent of recommending that you buy front row season seats, even if you can’t afford it.
Why would any astute business person buy a business with the intention to lose money (by swimming in the deep end?) As long as the league allows for economic disparity between big/small markets, the Reds are going to have to be smarter, not just match spending with their deeper pocketed competition.
I think what Dick Williams started was going in the right direction (focusing on organizational alignment/minor league development/scouting & drafting.) I can only hope Krall is continuing with these strategies. The timing of when DW left has always been concerning to me that ownership bailed on the long term strategies because Bob wasn’t seeing immediate results.
The old saying about it taking money to make money may apply here. Sometimes a business needs to be able to absorb losses in the short term to make money in the long term. Ask Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk about this. There were times both Amazon and Tesla (not to mention SpaceX) appeared destined to fail. Swimming in the deep end means having the capitalization to weather these periods.
We have no way of knowing how much of the supposed Reds worth as reflected by evaluations such as Forbes is currently tied up in credit lines or accessible as via credit.
It has been rumored that the Williams family (Dick’s dad and uncle if I have my generations straight) owns (or owned) 20-25% of the Reds, more than Castellini; but, Castellini’s rumored 12-15% share was or included the designated general/ managing partner share. Did some or all of the Williams family money leave the Reds with Dick? That would seem to be a situation that could push the team to financial limits if they are buying back the William’s share to keep it off the market.
The owners make money by the appreciation in value of the team over time, not so much by ticket sales and TV revenue. They recoup their investment handsomely when they sell the team even if the team “loses” monty in the interim.
It may be what they are preparing to do. Dropping payroll big time could be a sign.
Beat me to it, Jim
(Just getting back to being a regular. Life got busy during the season.)
There is one alternative explanation that has slipped past just about everyone.
Lifeboat economics. One suspects that Reds management may have an insight (or illusion) that hasn’t dawned on the rest of us. Namely, that they are expecting the labor negotiations to be extremely difficult – resulting in an extended lockdown and another curtailed and shortened season. For a big market team, less of a problem..but for small markets? 2020 was a bust – short season, no fans. 2021 a full season but constrained for attendance. And now, prospectively 2022, with another foreshortened schedule on the horizon?
They may be down to couch coin. (Boy, would I -love- to see the books.) Keep in mind that MLB frowns in the best of times on borrowing to cover expenses. An extended lockout will -not- be the best of times. One can rattle on about “market value” of the franchise but it’s not something that can readily be tapped. So the brass have panicked – or at least are battening down for another year of drought.
It does explain the petty cheapness of how Tucker and now Miley have been shuffled off the books.
I have to admit that does make sense. And, it does look like all out panic moves by the FO. Still, if you are not in a position to handle that financially, then maybe you shouldn’t own a MLB team. It’s part of the game.
I think we all feel the frustration of 6 winning years out of the last 22.
I think that the Reds, like a lot of companies with varying cash flow, have a revolving line of credit with a bank, to that they can routinely meet expenses and cash flow while awaiting revenue, either the gate attendance or the periodic payday from the cable network.
It is possible that the Reds were “in the red” at the end of the season to the tune of several million (or more) dollars. I don’t know this, but at this moment, it’s just speculation.
This money has to be made up from somewhere, and likely from the ownership group “shares”, not just Castellini and family.
The lockout and a shortened year (less revenue) is very possible for 2022. The ownership group has likely had meetings and discussed finances for 2022 as being a big potential problem.
What we are seeing is perhaps the consequences of that.
It’s sad and maddening for the fans here, but I am trying to make some sense out of giving away Tucker and Miley.
Castellanos structured his contract in the hopes of having an offensive “career year” at GABP (look at his home and away splits), and he got his wish. Regardless of what guys say to reporters, this is the outcome that Castellanos wanted; the chance for a big payday.
I also recall that after the 1995 season, Marge Schott was upset at the less than full house for the playoff games (especially with the Braves), and she said the Reds had lost over $60 million dollars from 1991 to 1995. And they cut payroll, and 1996 was a pretty lousy year, because their pitching stunk, even with the return of Eric Davis and Barry Larkin having a great year (offensively). Greg Vaughn was gone, etc.
Castellini may be one of the richest guys in Cincinnatti, but he is by far NOT the richest majority owner in ML baseball. He is way down the list.
I have no idea what the Reds will look like on Opening Day, 2022, but I doubt major player “investments” will be made in the off season.
These “savings” were likely made because the Reds spilled a lot of red ink in 2020 and 2021.
So this is how you treat the fans? Tease them with what the future may hold after coming off an 83 win season and then cut bait? The Reds are losing some of the ground they have gained. Sadly I am not sure gaining ground is a big concern.
The Reds have just given Miley away in what amounts to the top of the first inning of the off season. I am afraid of what else may be coming once December and January rolls around. If they are willing to be this stupid in November, what other crazy decisions are forthcoming as the offseason continues? It is going to be a discouraging winter.
The Reds haven’t jettisoned the promising young players this offseason: What they’ve lost has been older guys who wouldn’t figure much in the future. Castellanos might be an exception if the near future is being considered, but they didn’t trade him or give him away.
I certainly was disappointed to read this story. I think this shows there will be a lot of head-scratching decisions across the MLB until the new CBA is agreed to. Personally, I’m going to hold out hope that the new CBA will do some leveling of the payrolls. But I’m certainly not changing teams over the last 3 days like some have said.
I’ve seen plenty of teenagers change teams because the color of the hats changed to something cool. That won’t be me and that’s not what being a fan is. I’ll be with them till the end – for better and for worse. The Reds have an exciting young core, a great future HOF veteran, and some interesting young players coming up. I’m not going to get too worked up about 2 guys that were definitely gone and 1 good pitcher who had a high risk of turning in a disappointing season compared to last year.
+1
Sonny Gray should be forewarned and start dusting his suitcases, I think maybe he would be the next to leave the Reds.
Playing devil’s advocate…
What if this was actually a shrewd move due to a medical issue? Perhaps medicals scared off trades. Does a waiver claim allow for medical reviews before the claim is finalized?
I sincerely hope for Miley’s sake he is healthy and ready to throw no-hitters every outing next year against every team but the Reds. Short of intentional malpractice or a league-wide financial apocalypse that only the Cubs can withstand, it is hard to envision a scenario where no team would be willing to trade their 30th best prospect for a healthy Miley with a 10 million contract.
I can’t stand that this give Cardinals fans even more reasons to point at the Reds and laugh. We have always considered the Reds as one of the premier franchises in MLB, but other than the BRM run in the 70’s, can any of us point to any extended period of success where the team goes to the playoffs every year and the team is always putting money towards payroll by trading for superstars like Goldy, Arenado and others? They aren’t happy with mediocrity and make bold moves to try to win. I can’t say that about the Reds
I have been a fan as long as I can remember. As others have said, nobody cares how long I have been a fan or if I remain a fan so I am just talking this out to the ether among other fans who are maybe finally sick of it. I wish I wasn’t so connected to this team but alas, I figure there’s no hope for me.
I really hope Joey Votto has a chance to play for a winner again before his window closes. Sigh.
Some of the Cardinals sources I follow and occasionally message with say there are ongoing rumors that the club is for sale despite management continuing to deny them.
Wouldn’t surprise me. Although they are stronger financially than the Reds, that’s only -relative-
I keep having to remind people how baseball economics actually work. It’s like real estate. You sweat to make a marginal operating profit, us depreciation to minimize it (or, if you have outside interests, produce a reportable loss), in the expectation that growth in equity, inflation and (declining) interest rates revalue the club up to a very significant long-term capital gain.
The challenges in this are:
– You only realize the big paycheck when you cash out.
– Unlike real estate, MLB is financially conservative and actively discourages leveraging the team’s value, beyond amortizing the original investment.
– So that Forbes hypothetical value is illiquid. You can only use a small piece of it for leverage or collateral. In larger markets, the ownership has other outside sources of funds that they can use to stabilize the club finances or otherwise squander. (i.e. Mets…….)
– You probably have access to a functional line-of-credit but it will be linked to operating finance, not overall value. It’s a cash-like business.
More importantly, the concept of “cap rate”, which is tied not just to revenue stream but also to interest rates. Interest rates are at all-time historic lows – which means Cap rates in commercial and real estate are also at historic lows. Interest rates are likely to start going up from here out, which means the cap rate will have to go up and since value is inversely related, those hypothetical Forbes numbers may have peaked and started a secular decline. (Yes, quibbling, in -nominal- current dollars, values could still go up a bit but in -real- inflation adjusted terms, what that buys starts to diminish and if rates significantly rise, nominal values could stagnate or decline even with increasing nominal revenue from media or betting).
Couple this to labor instability and the demographic prospects for MLB. Cardinal management may have come to the conclusion that peak valuation has arrived and it’s time to call in the chips or, at least bring in a greater fool to provide additional cash. Certainly they are going to explore the market..
The other thing to keep in mind is where the Reds’ backers money comes from. IIRC, the Williams family is in property development and management. When Williams stepped down, it was to go back to management of some part of or all of the family business…which was likely facing challenges of its own due to the pandemic. Castellini money is ProduceOne – local/regional food distribution, which is notoriously high volume but notoriously thin margin – a family business facing its own share of pandemic challenges – so no outside cash there. That’s half the ownership interest right there, with the rest probably minority partners who also have their own external challenges to face.
In the abstract, I -can- understand most of the decision tree underlining Tucker and Miley (Castellanos was gone in any event). Ruthless, yes. But there is -a- logic underpinning it – Doug has done a good job in laying the various arguments out. What -does- gall is the panicky way these were done with only cursory effort if any to recover any value through the market. That speaks of urgency bordering on desperation. Lifeboat economics.
At the risk of injecting outside politics into this wonderful zone of comfort:
There is one other factor that people should start taking into account.
For about a week, the idea of taxing -unrealized- capital gains on a continuing basis was being taken very seriously. It finally fell apart under its internal contradictions, but this isn’t the last time you’re going to see this floated. A double whammy for sports franchises because (a) valuation is highly subjective and (b) most owners are themselves -private- businessmen facing the same valuation problem – and, because of the illiquidity, there would likely be a -lot- of distress selling just to raise the cash for the taxman. Those hypothetical Forbes values will be put to the wall in such a scenario.
If you want to crate a destructive panic, this is a great way to go about doing so.
Playoffs every year, no. The run from 90-95 was pretty good. That is likely the best 6 year run besides the 70’s in team history (i am too lazy to look deeper)
Now why am I not confident in Big Bob bringing winning baseball to Cincinnati? ? smh hahaha!!! ? Such a man of his word.?
Done. I refuse to spend my money or waste my time on another seven year rebuild. Maybe they should release the whole team and just call up the entire triple a team to take there place. That would save money. If you are to cheap to put a team on the field, sell it. Tired of hearing “We’re a small market” on a team worth over a billion
dollars. Done.
I want to clarify my position as a Reds fan, and on this transaction. I’m still a Reds fan, always will be. The team, its players, the franchise, the city and fans it represents are all bigger than one front office or ownership group. I’ll be a fan long after Bob Castellini has sold the Reds. And I’m actually optimistic about the future of a young core of solid players, plus the ageless Joey Votto.
I’m okay that Miley is gone, though I’d have kept him. But it’s not obvious that keeping him would have been the right move. I’ve been a consistent advocate for playing the young prospects. Stephenson, Barrero, Greene, Lodolo, Santillan, Lopez, and of course India all need to play. And many of them will likely be terrific. So I’m okay Miley is gone. But I’m not okay that he’s gone with literally nothing in return. You can’t convince me that no other team would have had a low level lottery ticket prospect to give for a veteran lefty coming off a very good year. That’s the part I’m dumbfounded by. So – still love the Reds, just this owner or the front office. Still excited for Reds baseball in 2022 and the new wave of future stars. And of course the privilege of watching Joey Votto for another year. Go Reds!
Oops. Just NOT this owner or FO. Of course.
I thought Miley was a good 2 way risk, that he would pitch worth the $10m for the Reds (or another team); and, at some point the Reds could/ would get out of the contract even in return if they chose to do so. As I implied above, I think the Reds felt they could not afford the $10m risk, and failing to strike a giveaway deal went the waiver route.
I am still pondering the baseball world where a pitcher coming off a 6 bWAR season with no known serious injury isn’t worth $10m; and, a catcher with a net of 7.1 bWAR over 8 seasons who just came off an 0.2 bWAR season with a 75 OPS+ is apparently worth $7.5m
No, Barnhart isn’t worth 7.5 million. The Reds backloaded his contract so they could pay him about 3 mill the other years. Well, that’s another pickle you got us into! Then, there’s always someone else who has a greater need. Maybe he’ll get a 3 year contract for 10-12 mill. Everybody is happy and there are plenty of second rate catchers for 1 mill that the Reds can get. Hope that Stephenson is as well prepared as they think…
Same here. Will be 59 in January and have been a big time Reds fan since I was 7. When Castellini sells the team I’ll see if I still have any interest left… until then goodbye Redlegs.
After Castellanos, Barnhart and Miley departures, the outlook for the next few seasons doesn’t look promising when also considering Reds will be still on the hook for $130MM with only three players (Votto, Mouse & Suarez) until 2024.
Yeah, it’s going be a rough few years until at least the bad contracts come off the books in 2024.
I could take solace in another rebuild if I thought there were competent a GM in place to manage it. I don’t think Nick Krall is that person.
In terms of this year, I think Sonny Gray and at least one, and perhaps more, of the arb eligible players will be traded this winter.
It seems like the Reds front office can’t shed payroll fast enough. So Sonny may be traded before Thanksgiving.
Hopefully, if the Reds trade Winker or Castillo in the coming days they will insist the other team takes Moose or at least Shogo as part of the deal.
The Reds front office just look so weak, pathetic and desperate right now I’m not sure they will get fair market value on any deal.
That last paragraph is what I am seeing from fans of other teams on national blogs. The Reds are basically a joke to the outsiders.
For the real old timers out there, did anyone else have a passing thought that perhaps Miley is considered “an old 35”? And for the real old-timers who are also history fans, recall that that was only the 2nd worst transaction in Reds history.
Frank Robinson for Milt Pappas? Yes, that was ….”genius!”.
And I still wonder if Bob Castellini talks to Walt Jocketty for baseball advice from time to time…..like at least once a week.
Let’s see what Miley does in 2022.
Miley seems to do better when Johnson is his pitching coach. Milwaukee and Cincinnati.
#SoReds
lol, sadly an expected surprise from this FO. Regardless!! – I still believe in this team. looking forward to rebuild 2.0! Let the kids play!
At this point maybe we should hope for a strike. That could even the playing field and maybe our minor league team could compete with other minor league teams. If I remember correctly in the 90s they were planning on using AAA players when the big leaguers striked. That’s probably our only hope for a championship. So with our pathetic ownership I will root for a strike to give us a chance to finally win.
In the strike year(believe it was 95) they did not use Minor leaguers, but semi pro guys. I was playing my last year of over 30 hardball then and had to face a guy that had pitched for the Indians a couple days before when the strike ended. That was a memorable at bat to say the least. I just remember striking out and being glad it was over.
Wow. Great story. I remember going to a spring training game that year when I was 9 in fort Myers Florida. As a kid I couldn’t tell the difference between semi pro or pro. I assumed they were minor leaguers. Semi Pro would be even better. Talk about evening the playing field with an inept owner. We may even have a chance to win if this occurred.
IMO the recent shocking front office moves is Castellini & Co. clearing the decks and preparing to cash in their chips to make way for a new principal owner of the Reds.
I’d like to see the over/ under on that turning out to be a group headed by Dick Williams.
I believe the Williams family has owned a good part of the Reds for at least 40 years. The couple recent years with Dick Williams as president of the organization felt right to me. Make him the GM and go from there.
A previous generation of Williams brothers actually owned the general/ managing partner share in the late 1970’s and early 1980’s. The public narrative is they put it on the market shortly after one of them received a devastating medical diagnosis. It was first offered among the other owners, and Marge Schott emerged as the new general/ managing partner as a result of the process.
Per the Wikipedia article about Reds ownership, the current Williams brothers, Dick’s dad and uncle as I understand it, as recently as 2015 served as Reds board chair and treasurer. So, yeah, they are (or were) serious stake holders in the team.
Can only hope.
Well, Dick Williams tried to bring some order out of the chaos of the incompetent Jocketty years. Those years under Walt Jocketty as GM really, deeply hurt the franchise.
Jocketty, as GM, harvested the hard earned gains of the lean years 2003-2008, and some great drafted players (Votto, Bruce, Cueto among others) that were there before he arrived.
He added nothing to the farm system as GM, it went downhill. He trade four young prospects (which was his MO with the Cardinals) for Latos, which really helped the big club, too. I believe he also did the ill-fated Aroldis Chapman trade; giving away big value for basically nothing in return. The Reds are in the predicament they are in to a large degree because of Jocketty’s poor management of the farm system. I really don’t think he cared about it at all. And I would wager that Castellini still talks to Jocketty on the phone at least weekly. They’re just pals.
But Dick Williams also, in the eagerness to field a winning team, saddled the team with the contracts of Moustakas and Aiyakama, in particular. He also made the Sonny Grey trade.
This may look like a Black Day for the Reds. 2022 may stink on ice. But they might have been lousy WITH Wade Miley. 2023 may be a good year. I have no idea how this will all turn out.
No one does.
That is what I have been posting also. It points to a sale or shift in ownership. If not, the current group can’t afford or won’t play the financial game needed for success.
I have a notion that no one in Cincinnati has the kind of money to do with the franchise as you imagine.
It might mean the team being bought and moved out of Cincinnati.
And I do think that is the ultimate fate of the Reds. Major League sports are being pressed to spend more and more on player salaries, and no one in Cincy has those kind of deep pockets. A net worth north of a billion dollars, at least.
It is possible that someone from the state or out of state would purchase controlling interest in the team and keep it in Cincinnati. Cincinnati is a great baseball town and the fans deserve better. Yes, it would best if someone from Cincinnati purchases the team but if they aren’t capable of running the team or don’t have the necessary finances, that is counter productive.
Well at least the contract options related subtractions have finished for a total of about $29.5M. Now we’ve seen that Justin Wilson has accepted his player option and that’s good. At this point the Reds have a roster still capable of winning but a few more things have to work out than before. I can still get behind these players:
2B India
LF Winker
C Stephenson
1B Votto
3B Suarez
RF Naquin/Aquino
CF Senzel/Freidl/Akiyama
DH Moustakas/Schrock
SS Barrero/Farmer
Castillo
Mahle
Gray
Gutierrez
Sanmartin/Green/Lodolo
Sims
Santillan
Warren
Cessa
Moreta
Hoffman
Wilson
Garrett/Perez
If most of the players you list are still there come Opening Day with a few additions such as right field, I think the Reds can compete especially if David Bell can add a little ‘eye test’ to his style like the Braves manager used to win the WS.
I thought Gray would go and Miley stay. But Gray could still be traded for prospects, etc. before this is over.
David Bell made an off hand comment at a post game news conference near the end of 2021 season, where he said Cessa might be in the mix as a starter for 2022. That was interesting, but never repeated. It might nave been telling of some next season thinking then going on.
I think Santillan will get a chance to start in ST, and might be a long reliever/swing man starter.
I think Gray and at least one of the arb eligible players (Winker, Castillo or Mahle) will be dealt this winter.
That’s basically the same team as 21 that won 83 games, minus 3.3 WAR Castellanos, 5.7 WAR Miley, Barnhart and Antone.
I’d guess that’s a 75 win team.
Castellini sucks!
The Reds have been nothing more than a .500 team or less. Who cares if those players are gone. What makes anyone think they would make the playoffs with the same roster? They can miss the playoffs with or without those players. As Branch Rickey told Ralph Kiner we finished in last place with you, we can finish in last place without you. Something needs to change. It’s not the money they spend but how they operate. The Reds are a bad oragnization.
Or not the money they spend but rather how they choose to spend it.
One of the worst weeks in Reds history…
Remember, remember the first week of November.
I’m stealing that from some British holiday but it works for the Reds too 🙂
@votto,
Should we wear Guy Fawkes masks to the protest outside the reds hall of fame?
@votto,
Should we wear Guy Fawkes masks to the protest outside the reds hall of fame?
Haha great idea Michael!
My GF is British and she has been saying that all week. I keep asking her what am I suppose to remember again? 🙂
So am I correct in stating the players remaining with the most expensive contracts are
Votto
Moose
Gray
Suarez
Shogo
And to a lesser extent
Winker
Castillo
Mahle
Naquin
Farmer
Of the top five, Sonny Gray is probably the only player they can realistically move.
That leaves the bottom five. Of that group Winker, Castillo and Mahle could bring good value or entice a team to take Suarez or Shogo’s contract.
I don’t think any team will take Moose’s contract without the Reds sending back cash which defeats the whole purpose of a trade.
With that in mind, I will say there is a good likelihood the Reds will trade Sonny Gray and one or more of the following: Winker, Castillo and/or Mahle before Spring training.
It may be much sooner because it seems the Reds are really eager to shed payroll ahead of the new CBA or work stoppage.
Not sure I get all hate now I think about it. Nick C was always going to opt out and we had no control. Could other savings be used to re-sign him? Doubtful, but still possible. Tucker was never worth 7.5 million for one year. Miley had very good year but he’s on last legs. A year ago nobody wanted this option so just wait. Should have got something though. Time for partial rebuild
Now that we’re past the 24 rule, it strikes me how little interest either Barnhart or Miley drew. Essentially zero, considering Quintana cannot have a FV greater than the difference between Tucker and Wade.
The purely financial aspect is interesting – consider Doug’s observation above – “Of course, the team could have simply picked up the option and traded him and not had to spend much money, either.” I wonder what the projections showed about that? They were’t willing to risk downside (injury/flagging performance/YTD payroll impact) vs. the upside of a stellar 1/2 season and enhanced rental value and trade return at the deadline.
Also, someone commented on DJ’s role in this, and I wonder if the front office and field staff are of a consensus that the future is now with Greene/Lodolo/Santillan/Gut/and a few others, as well as Antone in 2023.
Still – nothing for 163 solid ip walking out the door – amazing.
The thing that is becoming a little more clear as a possibility… it’s not from my own brilliance, it’s from some of what I’m reading here and on Reds Minor Leagues, is we need to be careful what we wish for. Do we really want the Reds to be sold? There may not be another group to purchase the Reds who will keep them in Cincinnati. Would any of us still be fans if they became the Las Vegas Reds or even the Nashville Reds? What if they weren’t even the Reds anymore? What if they became the Las Vegas Slots?
It is something to keep in mind.
At this point I think there are lots of Reds fans that are fed up that don’t care where the team plays or if the name changes for that matter. I am one, I live 12 hours away from Cincinnati. I could care less where they play since I only see them when they are in Milwaukee anyway. or on TV.
I wish some rich Reds fan would try and buy the team. I think the thing that stings the most is this owner saying We are going to bring winning baseball back to the city and that has barely ever happened while he has owned the team.
If the Reds play well and the young guys prove to be exciting players, don’t you think a lot of the disenchanted fans will come back? What if they make a trade or FA signing for a good centerfielder and/or bullpen guy? What we’re seeing may be all there is, but it may not be.
Greenmtred
Mate I have not personally given up. We have a whole offseason to go. Maybe they are removing pieces that the team can cover well with some of the good looking young players we do have.. And then anything we will need still they might go out and get some decent players. I’m hoping with you that this is the plan but if it is not I am preparing myself ahead of time mentally so The team I have been following since 1988 doesn’t affect me as much if there is no plan of making this team competitive in the division.
Yes, ….the Las Vegas Slots…lol. I could go for that. I appreciate what Doug has created here and the comments from some who have insight to the individuals within the Reds’ ownership group.
I will not be holding my breath for the Slots, but Vegas does have great shot at getting the Athletics. Which has a bad owner of its own but a vastly better record of annual winning that Reds’ fans could only dream of.
No, I want the Reds in Cincy but with new leadership. Castellini is a proven liar. Facts are hard. Reds will never win with him in charge.
We can only hope he bails and soon.
I am 70+ years old. I live ~1 hour from GABP. No other members of my family have any interest in attending Reds games in person, so, it is questionable to doubtful I will ever be at another game in person. Truth be told, given the quality and convenience of the TV/ Streaming coverage now available, I’m not sure I’d want to hassle attending more than 1 or 2 games a year even if I were still several decades younger.
I consider the subscription I pay (via cable for now) as supporting the team as surely as if I were attending games. I don’t really care about where the team calls home or the city name on the front of their road uniforms. I care about the quality of the product and the affordability and access to the video stream of it.
Well said Jim. The quality of product failing over a period of time can reduce those who watch in any mode. Most fans will be patient through a rebuild but not if the rebuild is constant.
Trying to keep ownership local is why we are experiencing what are over a long period of time. I would guess there are those who aren’t from Cincinnati who would keep the team in Cincinnati.
IMO, ML baseball would not allow their oldest franchise (1869) to leave Cincy with it’s long established fanbase and facilities. There’s plenty of big money in the metro and tristate to take controlling interest in the Reds. Also a devoted Red’s fan anywhere in the country could also take ownership.
Las Vegas Slots. Oh my.
+1 Million on what has been said mostly on each persons posts on this topic
I keep saying ok ok It’s early breath calm yourself….. Getting nothing out of it hurts my mind though.
So for October / November the Reds thus far on the offseason are a fat F grade
Take deep breaths.. You have your backup plan if this is what they are doing… Remember Blue Jays are a up and rising team… Sorry talking to myself so I don’t lose my mind.
Two things
The only decent move Nick Krall has made is getting the relievers at the break. Even that was late though like many have pointed out.
People should peacefully protest outside his businesses to sell the team and maybe in front of his home or land.
Almost forgot MLB needs to set a minimum cap at 100 million or get out of the business. Course Bob will make it right in at 100 million for payroll.
I hope there’s a billionaire in Kentucky that will buy the Tampa Bay Rays and move them to Louisville. The Louisville Rays has a nice ring to it.
If a Rays stadium is not built between downtown Tampa and the Ybor City neighborhood, it’s more likely they would go to Montreal. Louisville had a ML team for a few years in the late 19th. century. I believe a young Honus Wagner played for Louisville before he was traded to Pittsburgh.
Reading comments by a 2 or 3 people on here make me wonder if they work for the Reds.
I kinda thought the same thing…some seem so worried about multi-millionaire owners losing pocket change on the buy outs.
Nick Krall are you here?? 🙂
In all seriousness, if you have to give awayplayers because you can’t afford the buy out costs, you probably shouldn’t own a major league team.
It’s a whole new level of cheapness.
I love the whole argument about “spending other people’s money”. I realize it’s not my money, but I am a customer of the Cincinnati Reds so my opinion actually should matter.
If I go to a movie theatre and the seats have big rat holes in them because the owner is too cheap to repair them, then I’m probably not coming back to that theatre. That should matter to the owner.
I have thought the same and he asked one poster. He didn’t reply. Maybe not work for, but have a connection to the owners or those that do. I just fail to understand why anyone would not see that there is a problem.
It’s all heading to a probably a lengthy lockout anyway, it is the ownership just saving money.
I’ll be surprised if the season starts until July.