The Cincinnati Reds managed just two hits in a pitchers duel loss to the Miami Marlins on Sunday, 2-1. The loss also meant a series loss for Cincinnati.

Final R H E
Cincinnati Reds (71-61)
1 2 0
Miami Marlins (55-76)
2 4 1
W: Luzardo (5-7) L: Mahle (10-5) SV: Floro (7)
Statcast | Box Score | Game Thread

The Offense

Jonathan India began the game with a double. Tyler Stephenson followed up with a walk and things were looking good. And then they weren’t. Nick Castellanos struck out. Joey Votto also struck out, though the called third strike was very questionable. Kyle Farmer grounded out to the pitcher to end the inning and Cincinnati went nowhere. The only baserunner to reach from there over the next five innings was on an error as Jesús Luzardo and his ERA over 9.00 entering the game with Miami just mowed through the Reds lineup.

With Luzardo still on the mound to start the 7th, he hit Joey Votto with a breaking ball. It was his 94th and final pitch of the game. Kyle Farmer followed up by grounding into a double play. Eugenio Suárez took a called strike three to end the inning and was ejected afterwards. It’s not clear if he was ejected for tossing his bat 40 feet towards the dugout or if he said something as he did so, but the result was the same and he was out of the game and replaced by Max Schrock in the field when the bottom of the inning began.

Cincinnati got another leadoff runner in the 8th when Tyler Naquin walked. After Aristides Aquino struck out pinch hitter Asdrúbal Cabrera was called on against a right-handed pitcher. Cabrera, as was noted two days ago when he was picked up on waivers, has hit .152/.224/.229 against righties since the beginning of June. He grounded into an inning-ending double play.

Trailing 2-0 in the top of the 9th the Reds had the top of the order due up against former Cincinnati reliever Dylan Floro. Jonathan India started the inning with a walk. Tyler Stephenson then followed up with a high chopper on the infield and the third baseman couldn’t come up with it in time to make a throw and it resulted in an infield single and two men on. Nick Castellanos hit a weak grounder to first, moving the runners up a base, but resulting in the first out of the inning. Joey Votto followed up with a sacrifice fly to deep center to make it a 2-1 game, but pinch runner Shogo Akiyama couldn’t tag up to get to third on the play.

With Kyle Farmer at the plate he took a called strike two at the knees and David Bell did not like the call and came out to argue and was promptly ejected from the game. Farmer struck out swinging on the next pitch, stranding the tying run at second as the Reds lost the game and the series in Miami.

The Pitching

The Marlins put together a 2-out rally in the bottom of the 1st inning. Jesús Aguilar singled and was followed by a Jesús Sanchez homer that put Miami up 2-0. Miami was rather quiet from there, but may have had something brewing in the bottom of the 5th after Magneuris Sierra led off with a single. The Reds defense got together for a great double play, though, as the pitcher laid down a sacrifice bunt. Sierra, however, tried to go 1st to 3rd on the play, thinking that he could beat *anyone* on the team to third base on the play. He was wrong as Jonathan India came up firing from first base to a covering Tyler Mahle who laid down the tag for a double play. Mahle cruised from there, finishing with 7-innings of 2-run baseball that included six strikeouts. Lucas Sims came out for the 8th and needed just 10 pitches to retire the side in order and keep the game at 2-0 and give the Reds one last chance to try and tie the game up or take the lead. They couldn’t quite do it.

Up Next for the Cincinnati Reds

St. Louis Cardinals vs Cincinnati Reds

Monday August 30th, 6:40pm ET

Jon Lester (4-6, 5.27 ERA) vs Luis Castillo (7-13, 4.29 ERA)

132 Responses

  1. Votto4life

    Are the Padres off today? On a Sunday?

    • JayTheRed

      Yeah I was seeing that too there is no game scheduled… I couldn’t figure out the other team that isn’t scheduled though too. So strange. I don’t recall that ever happening before.


    Reds really missing Winker and Moustakas, though they might not have done anything against the left handed pitcher today. Never going to do anything on offense with Suarez, this Cabrera guy, and Aquino. Plus, this team cannot hit left handed pitching.

    • Votto4life

      Leftie starting for the Cards tomorrow as well. This really needs to address in the off season. It’s only going to be more pronounced if NC leaves.

    • Redsfan4life

      Cabrera should have started the game at 3b. He hits LHP well. He does not hit RHP very well.

    • RojoB

      “ Plus, this team cannot hit left handed pitching.”

      I would specify that the lineup that Bell puts out against LHP cannot hit

      That is not entirely in the team

      • beelicker

        Barnhart, Moose, Akiyama and Shrock on the bench all lefties that don’t hit LHP … that’s who Bell’s got to choose from. Barnhart has been hitting them lately but you’re not playing him over Votto or TS … so who do you go with?

      • greenmtred

        The Reds got two hits. Castellanos 0 for 4, Votto 0 for 4, Naquin 0 for 4, and so on. My guess, based upon decades and decades of experience, is that Bell is responsible for this: he cast the wrong spell–the one that makes guys not hit instead of the one that does.


    So you pickup a guy who hits lefties and sit him but play Suarez who is as useless as a turd by your backdoor.Then have Cabrera bat as pinch hitter why didn’t he come in immediately for Suarez. Then you still would have had Schrock to pinch hit, Bell apologists will defend his lineup construction no thanks not buying any defense of his decisions

    • burtgummer01

      I just knew some not smart person would be blaming Bell and ignoring the real issues

      • Alan Horn

        The real issues who might make a difference were both sent back to Louisville. One bats RH and the other is a SH.

      • beelicker

        Bell’s not the one who sends people to Louisville

      • Alan Horn

        Where did I say he was? It is the same damage to the club whomever is responsible.

      • greenmtred

        Alan: wasn’t the real issue in this game that the Reds’ best hitters didn’t hit? They are one of the best hitting teams in the league, but they ran into a pitcher who stifled them.

  4. Hanawi

    Tough loss. Not going to get easier in St. Louis. Lester is the soft-tossing lefty that this team struggles to handle and then they have Mikolas.

  5. J

    Bell was obviously not the main problem today, but it’s remarkable how often he can manage to make the wrong choice when there’s really only two or three possible options. I don’t understand how a guy gets to be a manager when he can’t handle a simple concept like “if you’re behind and it’s late in the game, make sure your better hitters get a chance to hit before using your weaker hitters.”

    • RojoB

      Anymore it seems he is confused as to who his better and weaker hitters really are

  6. LDS

    It seems the Reds simply lack a sense of urgency. They got to where they are largely through heroic individual efforts. Where they are now, Barrero should be starting everyday and let Cabrera, Schrock, Moose, Farmer, and Suarez wrestle over 3rd, probably favoring Schrock.

  7. Old-school

    Pirates 3 run walk off on Cards

    I get the frustration with Mahle not putting hitters away and being pitch inefficient. But….

    Objectively , he’s the 2nd best pitcher on the 2021 team and actually one of the top pitchers in a full season going back to 2012 not named Cueto or Castillo or Bauer.
    Miley is solid this year.
    Bauer won a Cy young last year but that was 60 games.
    Castillo and gray were great in 2019.
    Cueto was elite in 2014.
    Latos and Bailey were really good in 2013.
    Mahle’s 2021 season is in that next tier behind Bauer 2020, Castillo 2019, Gray 2019 and Cueto 2014.

    He is on pace for 175 innings and 200 K’s and WAR comfortably above 3 and durable on pace for 32 starts.

    • A

      Mahle nor the pen was our problem today. It was strictly on the hitters.

  8. Roger Garrett

    11 punchouts,3 walks,2 hits and 1 run against an awful team.Good thing we have a bunch of games left against awful teams.Two games in a row we lose the game in the first inning.Five runs yesterday and two today.Left side of the infield is really bad and I love Farmer and Eugenio but the Reds may not even beat these awful teams with them playing.Farmer is a utility guy that has had one good month and is hurt and Suarez is awful at the plate and has been for 650 at bats.Cabrera is not I repeat the answer.Get the young guy back up here and put him at short.Ty Steve every day behind the plate and Shrock at third.Give our best hitters the most at bats every game and let see what happens.We lose 2 out of 3 at home to the Cubs who sold out to a rebuild and 2 out of 3 to the Fish who would rather be on the beach.Enough of this silly everybody must play and this silly swing for the fences,how about we put the best hitters out there and just put the ball in play.Punched out 27 times in 2 games,thats 27 outs the defense just was thinking about going to the beach and didn’t have to move.

    • 3rdbaseTom

      15 strikeouts on Saturday and as you said 11 today. Gotta’ put the ball in play to have a chance.

    • greenmtred

      A bad team, albeit with some promising players, but the pitcher was really tough, and so was the home plate umpire. Alcantara has great stuff, and he located it well in this game. Didn’t need help from the ump, but he got it anyway.

  9. Votto4life

    Pittsburgh 4 St.Louis 3. Thank you Pirates!

  10. dhmorgan

    The management needs to ship the Reds’ bats immediately to Cincinnati and lay them on the field in the sunshine.
    Hopefully they can be warm by Monday night.
    And why does this team have so much trouble hitting mix-’em-up soft throwing left handers? With Jon Lester pitching tomorrow the Reds need to show that this not an insurmountable problem.

  11. burtgummer01

    The Reds have had guys get hot since Winker went down.Votto being the latest
    He’s now 4 for his last 38 and again needs to start earning his paycheck instead of crying about a strike call

    • CFD3000

      You’re not wrong about Votto’s recent slump, but to be fair the called strike three was ball 4 waaay off the strike zone. He should have been 0-1 with a walk, HBP and sacrifice fly RBI yesterday. That loss was not on Votto.

  12. Klugo

    People are paying attention. If we get in the playoffs, we’re gonna see LHPs. Hopefully, more than just one, I guess.

  13. KDJ

    Two on, one out, and Votto takes another fastball on the outside edge for strike three. If there had been none on base, it would be understandable. But, we need our most skilled hitters to get the kids off the street. Instead, Miami breathes a sigh of relief, dodge a potential early deficit, and are energized going forward.

    • burtgummer01

      After an awesome hot spell Votto is 4 for his last 38 and back to getting huge paychecks and not earning them

      • Alan Horn

        He has a couple of people for company who have been doing it all season. Votto for the most part has had a great season. He should be able to coast in to over 30 HRs and close to 100 RBIs.

      • Hanawi

        Just insane how Reds’ fans jump on Votto. Anything to deflect criticism of Bell for you?

    • Jim Walker

      Just a man on the street opinion, Votto is crying calls because he is 4 for 38 (or whatever exactly); and, he is 4 for 38 because he is 37 years old (within 2 weeks of 38), it is the dog days of August and he has played almost every day since the All Star break.

      Quick count subject to verification, is that the team has played 42 games since the All Star break and Votto has played in 40 of them. In addition, there were 3 team off days. That’s a load for anyone.

      The team was short an RH bat before Senzel went down, It has been even more pronounced since given that Heineman washed out as a bench guy. Votto being burned at both ends is one of the results of this.

      • Chris Holbert

        Plus Suarez, flamed, Aquino flamed out, Shogo, flamed out….

      • Alan Horn

        He and some others need some rest and it is up to the manager to force them to take a day off all along. I do worry about Votto aging out going forward like Suarez and Moose have this year. It is a reality on the tail end of a long contract given to older players.

      • beelicker

        It’s truly hard for lefty hitters to hit LHP … extremely rare to find positive L vs L batting splits like Barnhart’s

      • beelicker

        Shogo’s vs lefty splits are still good lol… this place would explode in an apoplexy of aneurysms if Bell started Shogo today lol

      • Hotto4Votto

        I think it’s time for an off-day for Votto. He carried the team for a good stretch, but he’s cooled off. Like Jim said, it’s a load for anyone to play as much as he has, but especially at his age. Let him recharge for the final stretch. We’re going to need him.

      • old-school

        Thats where Farmer could have been supersub and Barrero installed as every day SS

        Farmer could play once a week against lefties spelling Votto
        He could play1-2x a week at SS spelling Barrero and he could have played 3b or even LF 1-2x a week and been a super bench player as well.

        To be clear, Barrero is not the solution to the Reds offensive woes, but he needs to play and go through that next stage of development and get into a rhythm. Its not like Saurez and Aquino and Akiyama and now Cabrera are lighting it up.

    • CFD3000

      Just off the plate is an inaccurate description. It was ball 4 well off the plate and taking it was the correct (in)action. That would have set up bases loaded one out. Votto is slumping after his scorching run, but the issue in that at bat was the umpire, not Votto.

    • Tony Goodman

      Brantley said it was a good 3 inches off the plate. A walk loads the bases with only 1 out….Maybe flip flop Nick C and Votto in the order?

  14. docproc

    Farmer’s OPS in August is .597. Really sorry we gave up on Barrero so quickly.
    And Aquino and Suarez don’t belong in the lineup of a playoff-contending team.

    • Jim Walker

      And what’s with Akiyama that Bell didn’t pinch hit him for AA in the 8th vs the RH pitcher? Mattingly may have been baiting with an LH ready to bring on and face Akiyama but that still would have forced the LH pitcher to face Cabrera from his stronger side with 1 out and a man on in the worst case scenario.

      • beelicker

        Is this a rhetorical question? On the strictly vs RHP question, Aquino has the better season splits getting on base. However, the last 7 games (for each) combined, 1 BB for Akiyama is the one single only positive stat … 5Ks in 1o AB Shogo, 11 Ks in 2o AB Aquino … bringing in the lefty would be doing either one a favor, but for Shogo the bigger favor

        .191/.257/.237 AS vs RHP .261/.414/.3o4 vs LHP Shogo
        .173/.272/.395 AA vs RHP .196/.3o9/.446 vs LHP Aquino

  15. Roger Garrett

    Just one more rant.Whats with Bell going out to argue a called strike with 2 outs in the ninth?You talk about a day late and a dollar short.That was gonna add a spark to a dead team and the next pitch Farmer strikes out to end the game.The spark this team needs they just sent down in Barrero,the spark they need is Ty Steve getting 4 or 5 at bats every game,the spark they need is not going little league with the roster.Now I am done

      • Alan Horn

        Yeah. If he wants to add a spark, do it before the game when he makes out the lineup card. He would need to call a couple of guys up first. He should have room to do so on Wednesday when rosters expand.

    • beelicker

      Fired up and juiced is the 1oo% incorrect totally wrong approach to trying to hit speed changing LHP is why

  16. LGR

    Pirates bearing the Cards make this loss a lot less painful. Get 2 lefties way out of their primes the next 2 days. Really this team shouldn’t hit lefties as bad as they do. They have a lot of good right handed bats. Just happens sometimes I guess.

  17. Tim

    The offense looks weird since the Cubs series. The plate approach doesn’t appear to gave an OBP approach but slugging percentage approach. Lots of Ks .

  18. Chris Holbert

    Even if the top of the order would be successful in getting on base, with basically automatic outs in the 5,6,8 and 9 holes, how would a team expect to score.

    • beelicker

      #5 vs lefty splits = .265/.315/.482

      better that the #4’s splits

  19. Kevin H

    Reds in playoff chase, and fan still act like they are terrible. I truly believe they could be 20 games over 500 and fans would complain.

    • greenmtred

      Yes, they would complain. And they’d complain about the manager no matter who the manager was.

  20. CI3J

    I wrote this comment 8 days ago:

    These next 12 games are the last really tough stretch of the Reds’ schedule. First 3 against the Brewers in Milwaukee, then 3 against the Fish in the soup of Miami weather with no off day in between. Then back to Cincy to take on a suddenly dangerous Cards team followed by 3 against the sneaky-good Tigers.

    Then they have a relatively easy September with 16 games against the hapless Pirates, Nats, and Cubs, with only 8 tough games against the Cards, Dodgers, and White Sox.

    By way of contrast, the Friars have an extremely brutal September, with every single game being against a contender (except 2 against the Angels) including 13 games away at the Giants and Dodgers.

    Point is, if the Reds can come out of these next 12 games and still be 10 games over .500 or better, then the Wild Card should be theirs for the taking. If they are 3 games or fewer behind the Friars on the morning of September 7th, then I like the Reds chances very much.

    With today’s loss, the Reds are halfway through their last tough stretch of the season and sit exactly 10 games over .500. Just have to handle the Cards and Tigers at home now. If the Reds can win the next two series, they will be in excellent shape. Even if they only win 3 of the next 6, they’ll still be on target for my original post. More importantly, the Padres have also faltered, so the Reds have a bit more leeway than when I originally posted.

    The Cards and Pads are about to start their tough stretches. Actually, the Cards’ tough stretch begins now, in Cincinnati against the Reds, and doesn’t really let up until the end of September when they play the Cubs, so as long as the Reds keep beating the teams they are supposed to beat, there is no reason not to expect them to claim the second Wild Card.

  21. Jim Walker

    This road trip took a lot of the fun and excitement out of the season for me. They gave back a game they were in a position to win in Milwaukee; but, I was still somewhat upbeat as they moved on to Miami.

    I think Saturday’s events off and off the field are what fried me. I didn’t like that they took the easy way out of clearing a roster spot for Cabrera by optioning Barrero. However, it was seeing them set up themselves to lose the game Saturday because a guy, Moustakas, who had no business being on the field aside as possibly a pinch hitter did not make a reasonably makeable play for an out on any one of three grounders in the first inning. All three of those guys scored among the 5 runs the Marlins plated in the inning.

    I am not going to try and figure out where the hand of Nick Krall ends and David Bell’s starts in this mess. There is blame aplenty for both. As someone else said here, end of rant.

    • Jim Walker

      Should have been:
      “I think Saturday’s events off and *ON* the field are what fried me”.

    • Alan Horn

      I can figure out if it is one or both or ownership is involved, but it definitely lies with someone or a combination of the 3.

    • beelicker

      Hand of the owner. 18mil plays over 11mil plays over anybody else is the rule. It’s the reason for all of it. For why the guy that you just got to specifically address LHP didn’t start today. For the reason Barrero got sent out to get that guy. The coaches are trying all they can to get a RH bat option on the bench in Barrero because the only other option is Aquino who is failing. Ownership forcing Akiyama onto the roster due to his contract eliminates any flexibility in RH backup OF roster flex. Lorenzen’s hamstring scuttles this too

      • Alan Horn

        If that is true, we need new ownership that doesn’t interfere. AA isn’t the only one that is failing and for a long time. Suarez, Moose, AA and Akiyama. Garrett in the pen is another. We only have one LH RP who they can go to. Terrible contracts to Moose and really Castellanous. Why would you give a one sided contract to a player where if he plays well enough to earn it he can opt out. But if he under performs you are stuck with yet another bad contract. If he does well you are going to lose him. I hope the Reds never sign anyone to that type of contract again. Just bad management.

      • beelicker

        Akiyama, Moose, Geno big contracts … Garrett and Aquino no options can’t get them off the roster … Bell’s hands are tied on those guys … blaming that on Bell is a bad reflection on the blamer’s intelligence

      • beelicker

        Akiyama, Moose, Geno big contracts … Garrett and Aquino no options can’t get them off the roster … Bell’s hands are tied on those guys … blaming that on Bell is a bad reflection on the blamer’s intelligence

      • Alan Horn

        If you had any intelligence and could read, you would see I blamed it on the front office and not Bell. Maybe you should take a reading comprehension course.

      • Doug Gray

        Alan – take a deep breath. And stop with the personal insults.

  22. beelicker

    Your bench options today were Moose (not an option), Barnhart, Akiyama & Shrock all lefties and Cabrera … all the lefties on the 26 have miserable splits vs LHP (except for Barnhart. There’s good reason Shrock only has 4) . This roster is just gonna be vulnerable to LHP changing speeds like this guy today reinventing himself with 3o% changeups along with 96 mph FBs. w/o righty bats Cabrera and Barrero and knowing your lefties don’t hit lefties try to construct a better lineup than Bell did today. If the top 3 don’t come through or else somebody else flukes you’re toast

    • Jim Walker

      I don’t doubt this but at crunch time why didn’t Bell send Akiyama up for Aquino versus the RH pitcher in the 8th?

      If Mattingly brings a LH pitcher to face Akiyama, Bell is going to get Cabrera a PA versus the LH pitcher which is why Cabrera is (supposedly) on the team. It would have been Bell’s choice whether risk Akiyama GIDP which would have still gotten Cabrera to the plate but with 2 out and nobody on. Or he could have burned Akiyama and let Cabrera face the LH at zero outs and a man on. Also, if the inning got to India he would have been just the 3rd batter for the LH guy who still would have had to face him.

      • beelicker

        I didn’t watch the game but wouldn’t this leave him with no outfielders with AA and SA announced and out of the game and then who pinch hits for the #9 spot next that Cabrera did and GIDP?

      • Jim Walker

        Schrock was in the game at 3B after Suarez got ejected. Shrock to LF, Cabrera to 3B. I think this might have been a situation to let Lorenzen bat. Gray is not a bad hitter for a pitcher and then there was Barnhart.

      • beelicker

        Was there a lefty warming up at the time? Maybe Mattingly has a particularly nasty one up in the bullpen, best to avoid? That’s a lot of players burned 2 runs down and a defensive downgrade to make it next lefty Barnhart facing a lefty with still an inning to go. Chance of extra innings and you want to keep your backup catcher on the bench by not having to bring him in the game?

        I see Shogo pinch ran for TS the next inning. Is something maybe still lingering wrong with Stephenson’s leg?

      • Jim Walker

        @bee> We were shown a picture of a Marlins LH throwing in their pen during the bottom of the 7th but then they brought back the RH Bender for his second inning. He walked Naquin to open the 8th which created the sequence I have been commenting about.

  23. Greenfield Red

    I don’t understand why Management is so worried about options. Why is AA so important the Reds can’t dfa him? Same with any other league minimum guys who don’t contribute and in almost every case never will contribute more than any other league minimum guy. Time to get over that and time to get over playing legacy guys with big contracts. It is a sensless and causes more losses. Non productive league minimum guys are a dime a dozen and available every day.

    • Jim Walker

      Given how AA has responded since Winker went down, I am starting to lean to your thinking. I believe the Reds think the guy who was supporting the overall seasonal OPS of >.800 and >.900 versus LH pitching before this 0-20 run is what AA could do on a sustained basis. And I have said previously, he is arguably the best all around defensive OF they currently have.

      The other factor is they don’t want to have egg on their face if they lose him for nothing on waivers and he turns out to emerge down the line as even half of what Edwin Encarnacion became after the Reds basically dumped him.

      If Aquino was drawing walks like he was earlier in the year (close to 15%) and putting up the exit velocities he was then, that’s the kind of impact his power could bring even if he K’s close to 30%. Three weeks to a month ago his OPB was in the .330-.335 because of the walks despite the fact he his K rate was hovering at 30%.

      Now he has just totally crashed. That doesn’t mean that some guru in some org (if they can get him to MiLB in 2022) cannot fix him, especially if it is a guy who works well with Latinos which the Reds have not done for decades among position players.

      • Hanawi

        Good comment. I was frustrated with the Reds not giving AA a chance last year and early this year. He was drawing walks and showed power. But, he has just completely fallen off a cliff and I think it’s time to see what someone else can do. They have Narciso Crook at AAA, who is swinging a hot bat. Maybe he can give you something until Winker returns. Maybe they should have included AA in the Bradley trade last year instead of Fairchild.

      • LGR

        Encarnacion had.. 3 or so consecutive seasons where he was AT LEAST a average player if not slightly above before the Reds traded him during a somewhat down year for him. Those are full every day playing time seasons. Aqunio has never had that. They’re really not that close to a comparison. A comparison to maybe.. Chris Heisey or Scott Schebler, both of whom had sort quick stretches of very good baseball followed by bad or mediocrity is probably more fitting. Both of whom never did anything out of Cincy.

      • Jim Walker

        @LGR> in 5 years with the Reds EE had a .793/103 OPS/OPS+ (2008PAs)
        Heisey was .721/94 in parts of 5 years (1452PAs)
        Schebler was .758/97 over parts of 4 years w/ Reds (1338PAs)
        In parts of 4 years with the Reds Aquino is .796/98 (439PAs)

        Seems to me that unless a person has a crystal ball or prejudges that Aquino cannot be rehabbed, will not recover and will continue to spiral downward, EE is the closest comparison in terms of actual performance.

        And it is certainly worth noting that in a 6 week period during the offseason between 2010-11 following his age 27 season, EE was waived, claimed; waived, cleared and released then re-signed by the team which originally waived him (Toronto) and posted 2 very average seasons before breaking out in 2012 his age 29 season. Why worth noting? Because 2021 is Aquino’s age 27 season.

      • LGR

        I only like the Schebler/Heisey comparisons because like Aquino, they all had a “hot stretch” in their Reds tenure that made the fans/team believe that they could be future starters. Edwin never really had that. Never really a hot stretch, just consistent average/good baseball.

        Aquino had the monster first month of baseball.
        Heisey in .. I’m going to assume ’11 had a stretch of pinch hit appearances that made the team question.. should this guy be starting? Then he got starters time and kinda failed at it, like Aquino.
        Schebler had the one “good” year where he hit 30 homers, but I still think fans/management had questions if he was going to be a starter for the team moving forward. He had a down year the next year with less playing time and the year after that was just.. awful from what I can remember.

        I just can’t see Aquino being a every day player anywhere he goes. If his bat can’t play in GABP, it probably won’t play anywhere else without a drastic overhaul on his mechanics and plate discipline. His eye at the plate has to by far the worst on the team. Castellanos has trouble laying off that low outside pitch as of late, but Aquino takes it to a whole other level.

      • greenmtred

        EE played third base for the Reds, and mostly played it badly. Moving him to first wasn’t an option, so he was expendable, given the lack of the DH.

  24. beelicker

    I read maybe a dozen people here routinely and constantly blaming Bell

    • Hanawi

      And I see two that defend him no matter what decision he makes. Your point?

      • beelicker

        That was a misplaced post to someone thought I was addressing to him. If Bell’s being blamed for something that’s out of his control that’s not defending Bell

    • J

      I don’t understand why it’s so upsetting to see people routinely and constantly blaming Bell when he is routinely and constantly making avoidable mistakes. Ok, yeah, some people unfairly blame him for silly things that aren’t his fault, but the complaints in this thread have been almost entirely right, as have most of the complaints in previous threads. It’s not as if it’s a case of mass hysteria where Bell is doing everything right and a bunch of crazy people are blaming him for totally nonsensical reasons. I promise you it’s NOT crazy to believe he botched the lineup and the substitutions in that game.

      The front office has made mistakes, for sure, but there’s little they can do to correct most of those mistakes at this point (they can’t undo the existing bad contracts), and even where they CAN theoretically correct some mistakes, the solutions aren’t so obvious. The players make lots of mistakes every day, but it’s not as if they’re deliberately trying to take bad swings or make bad pitches. They can theoretically fix some of these mistakes over the long term, which they ought to at least try to do (and it drives me nuts to see them making the same mistakes for months on end without seeming to care), but it’s not like Suarez or Aquino can just will himself to get a hit in his next at-bat by trying harder. By contrast, Bell is routinely making *avoidable* mistakes, such as starting Suarez when he had a better option. A huge fraction of his lineups and strategic decisions can’t possibly be justified by the stats. If Bell can’t figure out what the stats mean, or how to utilize them properly, he can ask someone for help. Most of the people who comment on this blog could do a better job of interpreting/using stats than he does. There’s simply no justification for routinely doing the exact opposite of what the stats suggest ought to be done (unless the counterintuitive decisions tend to work out better than expected — which they definitely don’t). If people can’t get mad about *avoidable* mistakes happening day after day, hurting the Reds’ chances day after day when every game matters, what CAN they get mad at?

      • beelicker

        What lineup do you make for this game? Let’s critique that. You could say like they do they got Cabrera mostly to pinch hit but the getaway day sub for Votto at first base could work. Honestly, i don’t think Bell actually has the choice not to play Saurez. Aquino #8 no problem. Naquin splits .214/.323/.286 vs L w/no power i’m ok with him 7th … Farmer’s .265/ .315/.482 is credible at #5

        so let’s see how you do it

      • A

        Neither do I. That is what this board is about. Everyone playing GM or manager and giving their opinions and I repeat opinions about how to run the team. That is what any discussion blog is about. Yet we have some who get on and want to play blog police and tell others what they can or can’t say. It’s either you can’t say anything bad about the manager or anyone else or you think you are the GM etc. I have had my intelligence questioned at least 3 time in the last 10 days or so openly on the board by the same person. Tonight was just enough. I shouldn’t be the one to straighten this person out. You can respond to a person without attacking and unfortunately I let my guard down and responded in a like manner tonight and I apologize for that. After 3 times of this same person mentioning something about my and other posters’s intelligence because we happen to disagree with him , something should have been done sooner.

      • LGR

        @bee Stick with what’s been working. Naquin hitting 2nd has been working for him. You give him the cushion of hitting in front of Castellanos. Stephenson doesn’t really need that cushion. Tyler’s been clutch with runners on, let him hit behind the meat of the lineup.

        India 2B
        Naquin CF
        Castellanos RF
        Votto 1B
        Stephenson C
        Farmer SS
        Cabrera 3B
        Aquino/Akiyama LF/CF They both split around the same against lefties. Aquino slugs better and Shogo gets on base better. With Aquino’s slump, I’d go Akiyama personally, but it’s a coin flip. I’d prefer Lopez, but he’s not on the team.

        It’s not that hard.

      • beelicker

        Naquin’s not nearly the same hitter batting against lefties as his .286/.344/.526. Those numbers are also not matching how hot he’s been lately but he also predictably cooled off today as witnessed by the lefty overmatching him. You gut the whole sabermetric theory retarding OBP at #2 . Stephenson was by far the better choice over Naquin today #2 and he likewise proved it with basehit and BB. His season long demonstrated lack of power in favor of plate discipline and hitting the ball where it’s pitched makes also makes Stephenson the overwelmingly correct choice for hitting #2 in this lineup over power positions 4 or 5. The fact Votto lacked basehits also validates the correct dropping of LH hitters whose actual production history indicate this struggle from the top 4 but you keep him to alternate from the 3 RHs at the top. Cabrera would probably have been the better #4 choice, albeit Votto knocked in the only run

      • beelicker

        @LGR I’ve been pushing Akiyama because of his far superior OB splits vs LHP with BBs and scrappling for about a month now even though it’s a questionable small sample size. Neither one of those 2 has literally done anything positive (1 walk by Shogo) in either of their last 7 games … “it’s not that hard” to see if you look at the bench options is my point about people mindlessly complaining about Bell’s lineups “there aren’t that many options to choose” should be the actual correct lament vs LHP … and again my contention is Bell has no choice not to play Saurez by edict from above. That’s out of his hands. Evidence being the only way he sat down was because $18mil man Moose trumped Saurez’s $11mil. Nothing else changed. It’s disconnected to just keep blaming that on Bell like it’s some insight. I believe Bell would have been ecstatic to give Votto (or even Saurez but he’s had plenty of rest upstairs would say) the vet’s getaway day off today for Cabrera but upstairs said no. Bell says, “You know, i’d really like another RH hitting option against LH pitchers, Nick” and Nick picks one up but tells Bell he can only use him as a pinch hitter. There was nothing structurally wrong with Bell’s lineup today except that Cabrera wasn’t in it. Naquin also hits at the bottom of the order all the time proving he’s not been reliant on having protection from Castellanos to do what he’s been doing. That he was doing it down order is actually why he got elevated post Winker’s absence

      • beelicker

        although Akiyama woulda been overmatched by the 96 mph heat. that game was what you would call in the NFL a ‘trap game’ … team and especially pitcher unveiling new stuff and approach lying in wait since being swept. what the Reds got was not what they saw on the scouting prep film breakdowns

      • LGR

        @bee I disagree. Naquin at 2 is fine. You don’t want Stephenson to hit with the bases empty. He’s one of the few clutch hitters on the team. You would rather his base hit come with a runner on. He’s more likely to hit with a runner on hitting 5th behind India, Naquin, Castellanos and Votto rather than hitting behind the pitcher spot and just India in the 2 hole. I don’t think there’s any denying that. There’s this amazingly rare tool most of the lefties on the Reds refuse to use. Bunting. I’ve been advocating for our lefties to learn how to bunt for weeks. Especially when trailing by 2 or more runs. You know how good this team would be if Naquin and Moose bunted for a hit at least once a game? And if the defense started to defend it, it would open up the right side of the infield for them. I recall Jesse Winker laying down a bunt not to long ago before the injury. If Winker can bunt, surely Naquin can.

      • LGR

        I think if I had a pool of every player on the current 40 man, I’d go with the following.

        India 2B
        Lopez LF
        Castellanos RF
        Votto 1B
        Stephenson C
        Naquin CF
        Farmer 3B
        Barrero SS

        Lopez is literally a younger and probably better version of Cabrera. I’m one of the few who actually like the move for Cabrera a bit. Although I would have loved the callup of Lopez more. Schrock is also fine starting in LF against righty starters, I just love having at least one switch hitter in the lineup. It’s always nice. Also think Barnhart should be only making starts for Miley and Guti. Every other starter should get Stephenson. Stephenson should also play LF on days Miley’s counterpart is a lefty.

      • Jim Walker

        A couple of thoughts…..
        First off as several folks have said here time (and again), being dealt a weak hand does not excuse the manager for not getting the most out of the hand dealt him. From my viewpoint, Bell this year has been a lot like Dusty Baker. He has gotten the team into a better spot as of now than most figured was probable, even possible.

        However, the flip side of that coin is that Bell, like Dusty, has not always been effective as a game to game and in game manager. Part of the issue here is that being the most efficient manager in game at times runs up against a major tenet of his long term philosophy which is that players do better when they know their role and when they are going to play (and get days off).

        In the end, I believe the manager is judged by whether he won enough games to satisfy the bosses; and, woe to managers because that can be among the most mobile of moving targets.

  25. Alan Horn

    That last post was by Alan Horn. The drop down memory box for name won’t let you delete an entry, so it is easy to pick up an invalid entry by accident. There should be a validation against your email address. I know it is packaged software, so it isn’t likely to happen.

    • beelicker

      This is actually who you blamed: “I can’t figure out if it is one or both or ownership is involved, but it definitely lies with someone or a combination of the 3.”

      If you didn’t blame something on Bell that clearly isn’t his doing my comment shouldn’t have applied to you

      • Alan Horn

        That is correct. And you are correct. Bell may not have had anything to do with Lopez and Barreo being sent down. I don’t know and didn’t indicate he did.Their bats would be welcome right now and hopefully, they come up on Wednesday. You don’t know about anyone’s intelligence and shouldn’t be making those kinds of statements on a board. You were talking about someone whether it was me or not. What we do know is that someone or several in the front office did have everything to do with it. The bad contracts we are suffering through were on Dick Williams including Castellanous one sided contract. In effect we only signed him to a one year contract unless he bombed out. He has become one of the cornerstones of the team and now we have egg all over our face. I think I am correct in Williams signed Suarez to the long contract. In retrospect, that looked like a great deal at the time. Votto has 3 more years on his contract at 25 million per year. Williams also signed Akiyama to his contract. Those 4 are roughly 50 million a year out the window except hopefully, for Votto(He will be 38 next season). So it is safe to say that someone(s) did some terrible deals in the front office that will set the Reds back for the next several years. Now is it all on Williams? I don’t think so, but who of we fans know for sure, Again, I was wrong for doing the same thing you were doing with personal insults and I apologize for that.

  26. beelicker

    India .333/.419/.49o 3HR/115 PA
    Stephenson .29o/.356/.473 3/11o
    Castellanos .296/.345/.519 6/117
    Votto .211/.3oo/.36o 3/127
    Farmer .265/.315/.482 5/87
    Saurez .129/.235/.277 4/114
    Naquin .214/.323/.286 1/64
    Aquino .196/.3o9/.446 4/67

    Should be in there: Cabrera .287/.352/.447 2/1o5

    Akiyama .261/.414/.3o4 o/28
    Barnhart .289/.313/.444 1/46
    Shrock .25o/.25o/.5oo o/4

    This is their actual season production against lefties … who do you put where and why

    • Roger Garrett

      Not trying to be smart or a know it all or a wise guy but you play you best players Stats matter but Wink doesn’t hit lefties either.According to ESPN we are 16-11 against left handed pitching and 55-50 against righties so stats can be well you know.

      • beelicker

        Winker vs LHP is about a half Winker. Same with Votto. I’ve been pointing this out for weeks as justification for the Barrero experimentation in the outfield

      • beelicker

        Also curious to know if this 16-12 vs LHP means the starter or whether the pitcher of record was a lefty?

  27. burtgummer01

    I’m not a Bell Lover or apologist or whatever other stupid things people come up with,Just unlike a few people here I actually realize what the issue is.
    Bob C has been owner for 15 years and has a whopping total of 4 playoff appearances with a total of 0 playoff series wins and a total of 4 seasons of over .500 or better.The team he gave Price pretty much set him up to fail.
    And after a busy off season in which the only mlb signing they made is now in Seattle and gave Bell the worst bullpen in mlb
    Reds ownership is okay with going back to the basement, and that in itself is just a repeat cycle of the Castellini era. Hope, and then gradual disappointment.

    • Alan Horn

      You may have hit the nail on the head. We know it is the higher ups. Exactly which ones is a little cloudy.

      • burtgummer01

        The Reds need new ownership desperately.Let them rebuild the front office if they decide to fire all coaches and the manager thats fine but the Reds will not be true threats without new ownership

  28. Roger Garrett

    Not about the lineup yesterday nor is it about the lineup today cause unless the Reds just fall off the cliff their schedule is easy.The Reds are 15 over in our own weak weak division with having to play Suarez,Bell playing the whole roster,with the worse pen in baseball and an owner that is clueless about his team.All he sees is lost money on at least 3 contracts that he approved of and won’t admit they were just bad deals.He doesn’t even get it that fans come to see India and TySteve and would come to see Barrero as well.The reason the Reds are 10 over is because of a number of offensive breakouts and the year by Joey Votto and their weak schedule period.They could have been 20+ games over with a just average pen,a manager that plays his best players and an owner that isn’t all about himself and tells Bell who to play.The pen is better but Bell and Bob will not budge.It will not matter cause I still believe the Reds make it in the playoffs.Not because of them but despite them

  29. AllTheHype

    Maybe somehow we can get Suarez ejected before he takes comes up for his first PA? I mean, since Bell won’t stop writing his name on the lineup card ahead of better options.

  30. centerfield

    Face it, the Reds might get the second wildcard birth, if the Cards don’t overtake them, and then they get the Dodgers for a 1 game playoff. Reds lose to Dodgers and we pack it in for the winter. By this point in the season you are who you are.

    • Jim Walker

      Except the Reds beat the Dodgers 2 of 3 tries at Dodger Stadium this season. In a given baseball game, we never know what may happen. Odd as it may sound, playing the Dodgers in a single one and done wild card game may actually be preferable to a best of three like last year was (and which I would prefer year in and out as the WC format).

  31. Chris Holbert

    If the Reds make the wildcard game against the Dodgers. The lineup would look similar to today. They get all the stats just like the Reds do , and know the Reds struggle with LH pitchers. Realistically the players in the 5,6,7,8,9 yesterday have not been good, with a couple little stretches against LH. Also, realistically is DB going to run anyone different out there, regardless of who joins on 9/1.

    • Indy Red Man

      Odds wise LA is favored to catch SF and win the West. They might set up some bad situations with our slow outfield in a huge park.

      I’m not too concerned about the last couple of games in Miami, but their handling of Barrero has been pretty bad. Loyalty in life is a beautiful thing, but loyalty in sports can be an issue. Kyle Farmer has good chemistry with India defensively and he had a huge July, but he’s not a good hitter. You don’t suddenly become a good everyday player in mlb at 31? I’m not saying anything new here, but they have alot to possibly gain with Barrero and nothing to lose. We need a big bat and we desperately need more athleticism! I can’t think of a WS champion with more slugs on the basepaths. Sluggers good slugs bad

      • Arthur

        You touched on a point there that not many people comment upon. The Reds are all slow runners. I said it before – watching them run the bases and play defense is like watching Jonathan India and 8 catchers. The lack of speed leads to poor base running, and sub-par defense. The last 2 games in Florida showed how badly they struggle to score without hitting HRs. If you can’t run, it’s really hard to play small ball.

        I don’t see any team this slow winning a pennant or a WS championship.

    • beelicker

      vs LHP 5 is far more credible than 4

  32. CFD3000

    Is there any doubt that if the Reds get the Dodgers in a WC play-in game they’ll face a lefty? Uriah or Kershaw. The front office needs to find some right handed bats that can hit lefties, fast. Barrero? Lopez? Senzel? Because right now it’s India, Castellanos and… crickets. Maybe Cabrera though I’m not sure why he’s even on the team. Of course they need to get there first but the playoffs could be very short in 2021.

    • Jim Walker

      Kershaw is on the 60 day IL with forearm tightness. The earliest possible return is the end of the first week of September. Reds fans know how that can stretch out to more (and more) time. He is far from a sure thing to be available for the post season.

    • Jim Walker

      TySteve has been a pretty loud cricket 😉

      • beelicker

        Farmer too. New article over at Reds Content featuring new stats and even uses the term i’ve been calling the effect. Guy should use NL rankings though in his splash pargraph point as the pitchers drag down the NL dcomposite numbers, it’s more dramatic contrasting apples to apples

  33. J

    Regarding the Bell debate: I don’t blame him for the fact that a few players have regressed and are playing badly, but I also don’t credit him for the fact that several players are producing at a much higher level than anyone anticipated. That second fact is the reason the Reds are doing better than most people expected. It has nothing to do with Bell’s management unless I’m to believe India, Votto, Naquin, Castellanos, Farmer, Barnhart, etc. wouldn’t be able to hit as well if they had a different manager, and the starting pitchers would be pitching worse. I don’t think Bell has much to do with those performances. What he does directly control (at least somewhat) is who plays, where, when, etc. He decides who bunts, steals, etc. Those are the decisions I hold him responsible for. I don’t hold him responsible for Suarez being terrible or India being great.

  34. Old Big Ed

    As I said all day yesterday, and as Arthur just commented, the Reds are painfully slow. May I add painfully old? They could run a 100-yard dash with Votto, Barnhart, Farmer, Suarez, Winker, and Moustakas, and have time during the race to sell some TV commercials, likely for nursing homes.

    I fell out of my chair when when they demoted their best athlete, 23-year-old Jose Barrero, and replaced him with the 35-year-old 6’0”, 235-pound Asdrubal Cabrera. Cabrera in a sane world would be DFA’d within the next 30 minutes.

    More and more pitches every year are thrown at 95+ mph, and balls are hit harder. It is a young man’s game now, and is getting more so every year. They don’t really have a fast player on the team. India has OK speed, but he is wearing down. Castellanos and Naquin aren’t dead slow, but neither has even average speed for the the position they are playing. Aquino and Shogo can actually run a bit, but alas, neither one of them can get on base.

    Speed is underrated in baseball in general. The Reds are a slow-pitch softball team. They are 30th in stolen bases with 27, but 8th in caught-stealing with 22. And base stealing is just the tip of the iceberg on lack of speed. They play station-to-station ball; they put little pressure on the defense, and they generally lack range at every defensive position except 2B.

    Release Cabrera and play Barrero. The team needs energy today. And figure out a way in the off-season to eat the albatross of the Moustakas contract.

  35. LDS

    Has anyone seen anything on Moustakas? IL, DTD, Rumors on the call ups for roster expansion?

    • Old Big Ed

      Nightengale of the Enquirer tweeted that Bell said he was doing better and may be in the lineup tomorrow. Bell loves slow players.

      We are doomed. Moose has the range and speed of a domino, and can only hit right-handed long relievers. All for the low, low price of $38 million for the next two years.

  36. beelicker

    Just getting on base puts the pressure on. Pitcher still goes to the stretch and limits power to the plate, pitch selection and location choices. 1st baseman still has to hold a slow runner which opens that hole in the defense and alters the infield positioning. OBP is still more important than speed. The Reds were super committed to defense not too long ago. Phillips/Cozart/Hamilton/Hannigan was about as good as it gets up the middle. That’s big help to the pitching statistics

  37. Roger Garrett

    Good point and you don’t get faster by adding or trading for older players.Thats why I always say let the young guys play.Barrero was a little kid out there among all those old guys in the infield.He and India are just out of place.Its like me and my grandson out in the yard throwing a ball which I miss,he runs and gets it and gives it back and runs back and waits on me to throw it to him again.All while I am trying to pick up my glove.I said it early in the year that this team is full of DH’S.Defense does ok if they don’t have to move to field the ball.Other then that its going to be trouble.Barrero helps speed wise and on defense as does Senzel and Shrock should be better the anybody we have played at third offensively and defensively.Watch the Cubs and the Bucs when we play them.They have guys running around that don’t even shave yet. They were forcing the action.We waited on the 3 run homer that never happend.As a team they stink but did you see the Fish running and stealing bases?They aren’t going any where.Youth brings energy and enthusiasm.Votto is having fun playing with these young guys.It rubs off and its good.

    • beelicker

      The Reds have been NL OBP #1 all year and constantly top 3 if not 2 in runs scored all year. With a pre ‘2o Saurez they’d have been unquestioned #1 all year. With the #1 bandbox home park and the number of other NL bandboxes informing your overall statistical environment you shouldn’t demonize 3 run homer ball

      • Dennis Westrick

        Earl Weaver (former manager of the O’s) used to say! Gimme 2 bloops and a blast! Reds challenge is getting 2 bloops due to the high SO rate! And, HRs have been few and far between (or solo shots) in the past few games!

  38. Old Big Ed

    Suarez is listed at 3B again tonight. Cabrera, signed apparently to hit lefties, is not playing. Gritty Farmer is at SS, “hitting” 5th.

    • TR

      A big series coming up with the gritty Cardinals.

  39. beelicker

    Farmer v LHP .265/.315/.482 5HR/ 87 PA
    Votto v LHP .211/.3oo/.36o 3HR/ 127 PA

  40. DataDumpster

    Wow, this is the same lineup that delivered the powerhouse performance yesterday. Now, if I get this right according to one of the commenters, Barrero was sent away so we could get Cabrera but he is only allowed to pinch hit because Suarez has to play. Bob and Krall won’t let the slumping Votto get a day off and I forgot what was the excuse with Aquino (who is getting mighty close to the Suarez avg).
    Good luck team, hope they get an AB for Max today, seemed like a poor move yesterday by Bell but not sure whose decision that was.

  41. burtgummer01

    Suarez career vs Lester:
    16 for 43, .372/.429/.860-1.224 with 6 HR.
    For the people who insist on whining