The Cincinnati Reds lost the game on Thursday night to the Chicago Cubs, falling to 19-25 on the season. If that weren’t bad enough for a team with high expectations who now has just 16 games remaining and is 3.5 games out of a playoff spot, the team also saw three different players exit the game with injuries.
Outfielder Jesse Winker, who has been the best hitter on the team and one of the best hitters in the National League this year, exited the game with back tightness. No update beyond that was provided following the game.
Mike Moustakas was hit by a pitch in the 4th inning. The ball struck his foot, and after initially remaining in the game, he didn’t take the field for the bottom of the 5th inning and was replaced by Freddy Galvis.
“Moustakas, you saw, got hit by a pitch on the top of his foot – it just kept kind of swelling and getting worse,” said Bell. “We’ll have to wait and see how he is tomorrow.”
Reliever Tyler Thornburg was looking strong on the night until he had to exit the game with an elbow injury. He had struck out three batters in an inning of work before the injury. After the game, Bell noted that they didn’t have too many details on it (yet).
Wade Miley suffers a set back
Thursday didn’t start out with great news on the injury front, either. Left-handed pitcher Wade Miley, who is on the 10-day injured list with a shoulder injury suffered in his start on August 27th when he allowed just one hit over 4.0 innings in Milwaukee. He threw at Prasco Park with the hopes that things would go well and he could potentially join the Reds in St. Louis.
“He took a step back today. Just more sore than he anticipated,” said Bell of Miley. “Might even just get it checked out again just to double check. We are still very hopeful to get him back here soon, definitely before the end of the year. But as far as this weekend, it’s not looking like that’s going to happen.”
Nick Senzel is getting closer
It’s been nearly a month since Nick Senzel last played in a game. On August 14th he played in a win over the Pittsburgh Pirates, but just as the game ended he was pulled away from the team and he’s been on the unspecified injured list ever since. On September 1st he began to work out over at Prasco Park, preparing to get back with the team at the big league level.
“He’s feeling good. He’s getting stronger. I think he’s getting pretty close,” said Bell about the outfielder. But the Reds manager wasn’t quite ready to put a day on the table for a return for Senzel just yet.
“I really don’t want to put a day on it yet, for his sake and ours. As much as we want to get him back, he needs to be fully ready to go. I would say it’s a matter of days, I just don’t want to say a date. Not tomorrow (Friday).”
Rotation in St. Louis
After losing the series to the Chicago Cubs, the Reds take a trip to St. Louis to play the Cardinals starting tonight. Luis Castillo will start the first game in St. Louis for the Cincinnati Reds. On Saturday they will send Tejay Antone to the mound, and on Sunday it will be Tyler Mahle. Notably missing here is Anthony DeSclafani, who last pitched on September 5th against Pittsburgh.
Stand still while I poke you in the eye. This season just gets better and better. Not.
We need a strong leader like an Oester or Scott Rolen type. We have allot of guys that seem quiet.
Reports from 1999 were that Greg Vaughn could put the fear of higher powers into even higher powers. That might be what the Reds need right now.
Doug, I realize that me saying the Reds franchise Is a loser hurts your business because you are trying to sell the future. Sorry but it is.
But the buck stops at the GM. Period. Yes, there is a scouting director, but the buck stops at the GM— not below him. The GM’s take credit for players drafted when those guys do well. And they have to take the blame for bad drafts.
Nick Howard was a reliever in his senior season. And Jocketty said what I wrote. Nick Howard was a bust on the draft. Lorenzen was another reliever drafted high as you admitted.
I assume you will not deny that the Reds have been losers 17 out of the last 20 years, the worst stretch in their history. Once again I was right.
You agree with me that the Reds have been terrible at drafting pitchers that made it to the major leagues. Once again, that part was right.
Yet, you said that most of what I wrote was wrong. You seem to be trying to put words in my mouth. Teams have had scouting directors and scouting departments since before you were born. You are trying to put words in my mouth. If the drafts under a GM are all terrible, that GM is going to lose his job. The buck stops with him.
Look I remember when Chief Bender was the Scouting Director and Bob Howsam was the GM. You better believe that they worked together and that both knew their jobs depended on how the drafts went. So what is your point? I understand the process very well.
My guy, Nick Howard made 18 starts in 2013. Yes, he relieved his junior season. He was not a converted reliever. You can’t become something you’ve already been. You were wrong when you stated he was one of several “relievers attempted to be converted to starters”. That’s my point. You were wrong.
And yeah, the GM may at times take heat for how the team drafted under him. Mostly because that guy’s been in charge of both hiring the scouting director as well as the farm director who in turn makes hires and decisions on how to develop those players. The GM isn’t out there doing much scouting (they will do a little bit) and he’s letting his scouting director make the call on who to draft, because that scouting director has had his guys watching the player they’re about to draft for the last 3-5 years.
And no – you, Dewey Roberts, saying the Reds franchise is a loser in the comments section of an article that will be read 800 more times in the future beyond today doesn’t hurt my business.
I’m just going to leave it at that. I’ve had this conversation with 200 other people before. I don’t really care to continue having it again today. Have a good one, Dewey.
The problem with this franchise is that they have developed a losing attitude with 17 losing seasons in the last 20 years. That is the worst stretch in Reds history. Then, you couple that with their idiotic draft strategy during most of the Walt Jocketty years and you have perpetual losing teams. For instance, Jocketty several times drafted relief pitchers high in the draft or in the first pick with the expectation that they would become Major League starters. Where are those guys now??? A franchise cannot waste its draft picks on hopes and dreams, but the Reds have. Then, the Reds have just totally forgotten about drafting great hitters from 2006 on. The Reds used to have lots of hitters in the minors. Not anymore. Plus, they have been able to continue their inability to produce great pitchers despite placing a premium on drafting them first. This franchise is a loser franchise. I say that as a lifelong Reds fan since 1961. It pains me to see what they have become.
Why do they ever draft pitchers if not to immediately trade them? Hunter Greene is a perfect example… Drafted years ago, so no help to the parent club, huge setback with Tommy John surgery, and you still don’t know if he will ever make it to the majors, and the Reds track record developing pitchers is below average I am certain, can’t recall one in recent times besides Cueto. But they have shown an ability to trade for good pitchers (castillo, Bauer, Gray, Disco, etc.) So they should always draft the best pure hitters available at their slot and go from there. Trade for pitching. Use FA to fill in holes.
Just going to jump in here and say that most of this is very incorrect.
First off, the GM doesn’t actually run the draft or make the picks – the scouting director does. Walt Jocketty wasn’t out there drafting anyone.
Second the “relievers expected to be starters” line simply isn’t accurate. The only guy who fits that bill is Michael Lorenzen, who was a 1st round pick in a year in which had two 1st round picks (they took Ervin 27th, then Lorenzen 38th that year). Every other “reliever” they drafted had thrown significantly more innings in college as a starting pitcher than they had as a reliever. Yes, some of the pitchers they drafted did relieve in college. Even in the year in which they were drafted. Every last one of them, except Lorenzen, spent far more time starting than they did relieving.
The team absolutely must figure out a way to develop pitchers – that much simply can’t be argued. They’ve turned out 4.5-ish starting pitchers over the last 25 years – Cueto, Bailey, Leake, Castillo if you want to give them credit there since they did help improve his slider and change up after he arrived in the organization, and then maybe Tyler Mahle being a half since he’s not exactly established. That’s it. For 25 years. It’s almost impossible to win that way unless you can also buy pitching, which is impossible for a small market team to do.
I am going to jump in here, Doug, and say that you need to go back to the class where the Reds drafted the relief pitcher from Virginia and Jocketty said that they were going to turn him into a starter.
None of what I said was wrong. They have been drafting pitcher heavy for the last 15 years and have very little to show for it. I was following the Reds drafts before you were born. I remember when the Reds drafted Johnny Bench. I could go on and on.
The General Manager is responsible for the draft. Jocketty got fired by the Cards because he was good at trades but terrible with the draft. Just the facts, Doug. Jocketty destroyed the Reds. The good years the Reds had in 2010, 2012, 2013 were because of players drafted before Jocketty.
I think you should probably go back to that draft and see who they drafted and how he pitched in college (spoiler alert: between Virginia and summer college baseball, Nick Howard threw more as a starting pitcher than the did as a relief pitcher).
I really don’t care how long you’ve been following the draft. That’s got nothing to do with the fact that Nick Howard was a starting pitcher during some of his time in college at Virginia and while he was enrolled in college threw more innings as a starting pitcher than he did as a relief pitcher and wasn’t some “relief to starter” conversion project. He had a starting pitchers base to work with in his past. Just like Tony Cingrani or Zach Stewart, or any of the other “relievers” the Reds drafted in the first 3 rounds of the draft in the last 15 years that they “moved” to a starting pitcher role, with the lone exception being Michael Lorenzen who was only a reliever when it came to pitching in college. Every other pitcher that falls into that “reliever to starter” line you and so many others have been talking about for years had been a starter in college for more of their innings than they had been a reliever.
And no, the GM is not responsible for the draft. Sorry to inform you of that. That’s not how it works, and it’s not how it’s worked for a very long time.
I’m not going to try and sit here and say that Walt Jocketty did a good job. I’m on the record all over the place saying that nearly all of his success came on the backs of players that were in the organization before he arrived – though the pick up of Latos was pretty key. But you’re very wrong about who is responsible for the draft. And you’re very wrong about the relievers to starters stuff, too.
Sorry that I don’t have the statistics memorized about your guy, Nick Howard. Here are the facts. He played three seasons at Virginia from 2012-14. In 2012 he was a relief pitcher. In 2013, he was a starter going 6-4 with a 3.38 ERA. In 2014, he was the Cavaliers’ closer (relief pitcher). The Reds drafted him in 2014 with the 19th overall pick. Jocketty said that they were going to turn him into a starter for the majors. He was released by the Reds after the 2019 season. A wasted pick.
Michael Lorenzen played outfielder and relief pitcher in college. The Reds drafted him in the first round of 2013 and tried to convert him into a starting pitcher. That failed, but he is a reliever in the majors.
The Reds also drafted Robert Stephenson in the first round of 2011 (who has had very minimal success in the majors and very little as a starter). They also drafted Nick Travieso in 2012 who never made it to the majors. That is four straight years under Jocketty when the Reds drafted a pitcher in the first round and none of them became even serviceable starters in the majors. Two of those pitchers were relievers or mostly relievers in college. So, I was right. I said the Reds wasted first round draft picks on pitchers (including relief pitchers) under Jocketty and they did.
You said my original post was mostly wrong, but you cannot disprove any of it. In fact, you have admitted that the substance of it was right. The Reds drafted pitchers poorly for several years under Jocketty. They have failed to develop their pitchers. Cueto and Bailey came before Jocketty and they were the Reds two best pitchers over the past 20 years.
Then, Jocketty made some terrible trades. What did he get for Cueto? Or Aroldis Chapman? The Scott Rolen trade gave up a lot, but it was worth it because of 2010 and the winning that continued for a few years.
Jocketty was a major failure. And, yes, General Managers do go out and check out players that their scouting departments are high on. No, GM worth his salt would be totally hands off concerning the draft. Of course, they have scouts who do the leg work and give them reports. A GM cannot do all that and I cannot remember a time when they ever did. They certainly did not in the 1960’s. Nor since then. That is called delegating. I am baffled what point you think you are making and why you think you made a “gotcha” point concerning my post. Sorry, but you did not.
Now, once again, I suppose that you will agree that the Reds have had losing seasons in 17 of the last 20 years.
So, to go over things again.
1. I was right about the Reds drafting pitchers that did not pan out.
2. I was right that the Reds drafting relief pitchers in the first round under Jocketty that never panned out as starters.
3. I was right about the losing record of the Reds over the last 20 years–the worst period in Reds baseball history.
4. And I am most assuredly right about the abject failure of Walt Jocketty as GM of the Reds. If you cannot see it, it is not my fault. He was fired by the Cards for failing in the same ways he did with the Reds. But he is celebrated in Cincinnati. Yuck!
1. You are right about the Reds drafting pitchers that didn’t pan out. Of course, that’s not what you said in your initial post, which was this:
Then, you couple that with their idiotic draft strategy during most of the Walt Jocketty years and you have perpetual losing teams. For instance, Jocketty several times drafted relief pitchers high in the draft or in the first pick with the expectation that they would become Major League starters.
So cross that off of your list of things you were right about in the conversation since that was never something you said.
2. Maybe we’re getting too caught up in what is or isn’t a relief pitcher here. The Reds drafted more than a few guys who started and relieved in college. I don’t consider those guys relievers if they actually spent more innings starting than relieving. Which applies very specifically to the guy you brought up in your follow up – but also applies to Zach Stewart, Brad Boxberger, and Tony Cingrani. Turning guys into starters implies they never started – and all of those guys did for at least a full year in college.
3. I never addressed this as being incorrect in your initial post – implying that I didn’t believe it was incorrect.
4. See number 3.
So I’ll add my own:
A) You were wrong about the points that I addressed in my reply.
B) The points that I never addressed in my reply were correct, which is why I never addressed them as being wrong.
I too have been a Reds fan since 1961. I was a 6 year old watching them play the Yankees in the World Series and I was hooked. The late 60’s and the 70’s were a great time to be a fan of the Reds, but just like you, it pains me to see them lose year after year after year. I agree they need to shake things up at the top and I also think they need a manager other than Bell. I just don’t think he can manage them if they ever get to a big game. It’s been very frustrating the last several years and all I have are the memories of those great teams of 1975 and 1976. I wish we had some of those guys on this team today. They would certainly light a fire under them and make them be accountable for their bonehead plays and lack of concentration.
The problem with Howard was he was a 2 way player. He was a 3rd baseman and hitter first. He was not a SP first and at #19 you don’t try to re-define a player.
He’s way up there in UVA all time closers/saves. That draft wasn’t the best and Reds at 19 only missed out on a few top guys- which happens every year.
Doug, I proved that the Reds did indeed relief pitchers high with the intention of making them starters in the majors— Howard and Lorenzen. Sorry that I did not ask your definition of a pitcher before I made that post. But I was right. I proved it. Starters always pitch more innings than relievers. Howard was a closer his last year at Virginia and not very successful as a starter the year before. And a reliever his first year. I count that as a relief pitcher. He was drafted first. Lorenzen was a first round pick and he was a reliever,
Doug, you don’t have a clear point. You said most of my post was wrong. Now you are wrangling over semantics and your definition of a relief pitcher during his college career.
You should not be so demeaning to your readers. That is not a good way to run this site. Just my opinion.
Maybe you don’t like that I am down on Jocketty but he was a disaster.
Waiting to hear what part of Winker’s back is barking. Recall missed the final ~6 weeks or so of 2019 with a cervical strain. Oh well, doesn’t look like it matters any longer in the grand scheme of things anyway
Sadly, it doesn’t matter now. I do hope the “swing out of your shoes” wasn’t a contributor.
Wonder if the wet weather made him slip or something? Insult to injury.
I think backs are given to doing what they are going to do when they are going to do it. But slippery surfaces certainly help them out sometimes.
Wonder if he slipped in the wet weather? Insult to injury
That exaggerated stretch he was doing before every pitch should have been a clue something was amiss.
You hate for injuries to happen. Thornburg doesn’t sound good at all—a career threatening one. Hope it’s not serious.
What also worries me—–that the front office will use injuries as an excuse to gaslight the fan base about the root causes of this lost season.
They can try … but we’re not buying the gas on my end.
David Bell is showing that analytics leads to paralysis by analysis.
The one or ones at tip top of this organization reminds me of what I was told years ago about where I worked, to remain the smartest person in your organization hire people dummer than you.
Yes, and the way to build a great organization is to hire the brightest and best you can.
My best boss ever was one whom said, I try to always hire the smartest and brightest people whom all know more than me. If all of my employees know less than me why do I need them. A bosses job is to break down roadblocks and let the brilliant people be brilliant not hold them back.
The Cubs had this losing attitude for 75 years. It’s a culture that corrupts everybody, top to bottom. The Reds lull you to sleep with mediocrity. This rebuilding program is warn out. Maybe a competitive triple-A team, nothing else.
This team has underwhelmed and totally underperformed since the season began. Dick Williams has had plenty of time to build a winning team in a winning culture, show him the door along with his lacky Nick Krall. David Bell has done very little to indicate he is capable of managing professional baseball team and be a leader of men, he may be a very analytical strategist but that means nothing without more wins than losses. This team is deficient when it comes to fundamental baseball skills. Give David Bell a copy of the home game and show him the door too. Castellanos is a talent with the bat but has cost this team defensively multiple times, if he wants to opt-out I say let him! Remember went he got pissed because he was replaced defensively late in game #1 of the season and he popped off to the media?!? Use that money to re-sign Bauer, a guy who has a fire in his gut every time he steps on the field!
Unfortunately, the odds are about 1 in $35,000,000 that Bauer signs with the Reds.
Similar to the lotto. If you’re not in it, you can’t win it.
Someone brought this up the other day, but it is absolutely incredible looking at Votto’s home and away splits:
.365/.474/1.172 at home
.085/.198/.310 on the road
That’s with nearly equal plate appearances (slightly more on the road). I can’t even fathom what would lead to those kind of numbers.
That was me on Wednesday.
These numbers are real and not random. Love JV but he is an analytical deep thinker and a guy who’s been pulled off a baseball field in Dodger stadium I believe , due to anxiety and been to the ER as well.
Covid hits hard and perhaps JV has his comfort zone and routine at home, but not on the road where he can’t control things. Pure speculation of course but something real is contributing to these splits. Covid anxiety is very real too for a lot of people.
Hope all the players are not seriously hurt and get back to playing the game I am sure they all love to play as soon as possible.
I would like to know if anyone has any idea why the Reds traded for Bradley since Bell will not use him.
If he was to be the new closer, that is a no since Iglesias has had 3 save attempts (3 good, 1 loss) and one hold of a tie which turned into a win since his arrival.
Was it to be the Firefighter pitcher at any time (like Andrew Miller was for Yankees and Indians) no as that went to Lorenzen and Thornburg last night.
Bradley is a 60+ per year appearance pitcher for the last 3 years and he has seen 2.2 innings of work in 9 games with the team. 1.2 in Gray’s blow up game vs Cards and then the 9th vs pirates with a 4 run lead. Not really high leverage, stressful situations.
To me this appears that Williams, Krall and Bell are not on the same page as why would they give up two prospects for a pitcher that is 9th or 10th in a 10 man bullpen.
Just does not see right
Perhaps they want to showcase R. Iglesias with good, hopefully, outings as the season winds down to increase Iggy’s trade value in the offseason. Bradley should be the closer in 2021.
I have also been wondering why Bradley has not been used more.
This team is a paradox.
Could not agree more/dumbfounding
My guess for the ETA on Senzel coming back is Sept. 30th
Senzel has not played since Aug 14. Does anyone know why? Is it some sort of national security reason?
HIPPA. Senzel knows. The team knows. It is his prerogative not to have more information released publicly.
This article may be enlightening
Looking at Stats on Baseball Reference today for WAR by position by Team.
The Reds position by WAR is
Catcher @ +0.5 (11th overall)
LF is +0.4 (13th overall)
DH +0.3 (12th overall)
3B +0.2 (19th)
RF 0.0 (21st)
CF -0.3 (27th)
2B -0.5 (26th)
1B -0.6 (26th)
SS -0.9 (30th)
So based on WAR relative to the rest of the league, the Reds Catchers are the most valuable players on the roster.
Relief Pitching +0.7 (17th)
Starting Pitching +4.5 (3rd)
The team doesn’t seem to have any spark. My opinion is David Bell needs replaced as well as the hitting coach. He seems to over manage at times and changes around the lineup to much. For a manager I like Barry Larkin, Scott Rolen.