Sure, it was just one game. Four innings.

But Michael Lorenzen’s performance tonight was a much-needed dose of “maybe next year can be better” for Reds fans. He looked as overpowering and dominant as any Reds starter this year. Lorenzen had Brewers hitters off balance and retired the last seven batters he faced. He commands several pitches, which helps him face opponents multiple times through a lineup. 

According to Reds broadcaster Marty Brennaman, Jim Fundamentals said before the game that tonight’s start was not an audition for 2019 for Michael Lorenzen. If the Reds’ manager account is accurate, the entire dugout staff and front office should be fired into the sun.

It sounds like Lorenzen will get another start on Sunday, which would be in Miami against the Marlins. Lorenzen could then pitch the season’s final game at home against Pittsburgh on Sunday, September 30. If he pitches credibly in those games, Michael Lorenzen should be at the head of the list of candidates for rotation spots not taken by Luis Castillo, Anthony DeSclafani and any top acquisition(s) this offseason. 

Cincinnati Reds 3 (63-86) • Milwaukee Brewers 1 (87-61)

Box Score || Win % || Statcast Hitters Report || Statcast Pitchers Report

52 pitches. 4 innings. 37 strikes. 95.7 mph average 4-seam fastball. Six ground balls, one fly ball, one line drive. Three strike outs. One walk, to the first batter faced on a full count. Only one other 3-ball count after that. One hit. No earned runs. 23 fastballs. 19 sliders. 6 curve balls. 


Sal Romano relieved Lorenzen and pitched 2.1 strong innings, with four strikeouts and no walks. Amir Garrett entered the game with one out and one on in the 7th and induced an inning-ending double play. David Hernandez pitched a clean 8th inning. Raisel Iglesias gave up a walk to start the 9th inning, but then struck out Christian Yelich, Domingo Santana and Hernan Perez. 

Reds pitchers limited the Brewers to three hits (for the first time since April 2015) and two Curtis Granderson walks.

Jose Peraza lined a home run to left center field in the first inning. It was worth two runs because Scott Schebler had singled before him. Later in the game, Schebler doubled home third baseman Brandon Dixon, who had walked. 


Joey Votto had three more hits, raising his NL-leading OBP to .424. Votto’s average is up to .290. Jose Peraza had two hits, moving his batting average up to .292. Votto has 103 walks. Jose Peraza has 29. Michael Lorenzen walked in one of his two plate appearances.

Mason Wilson Williams, who was playing centerfield tonight did this:


87 Responses

  1. Jeff Reed

    Nothing to not like in tonight’s game. Well done.

  2. Seat101

    As Thom should have said: Wilson! Wilson! Wilson!

  3. davy13

    Steve, the recap is right on point, especially the firing part if Lorenzen is not given a change provided that he auditions well in his next few starts. With Schebler back hitting solidly and Peraza’s consistency, does it seem that the team has solidified the 1-6 of the lineup order for 2019 (Schebler, Peraza, Votto, Suarez, Scooter, Winker)? The big holes to fill would be CF and front-line SP? Your thoughts and insights are appreciated.

    • Hanawi

      I’m still of the opinion that they can’t go into 2019 with the infield the way it is if they think they are going to even get to .500. The defense is too bad. Senzel would be an immediate upgrade at 3B, SS, or 2B. Obviously, Suarez isn’t going anywhere, so that leaves one of the other two.

  4. Sliotar

    IMO, there should be zero top SP acquistions this off-season.

    1) Trade? Suggest who the Reds should trade and who is a “top acquisition”? The “haul for your closer” deal has likely peaked, if not gone away all together.

    Teams aren’t giving away controllable decent SPs without a lot of controllable value coming back

    2) Lorenzen/Mahle/Reed/Romano/Sims/Wisler … make some them 4-5 inning SPs, the rest stretch / middle relievers. All controllable and cheap.

    3) Here are your top FA SPs this winter based on current ERA (best I could find in a pinch)…

    Chris Tillman SP 31
    Clay Buchholz SP 34
    Wade Miley SP 32
    Hyun-Jin Ryu SP 32
    Anibal Sanchez SP 35
    Patrick Corbin SP 30
    Charlie Morton SP 35
    Edwin Jackson SP 35
    Jeremy Hellickson SP 32
    Dallas Keuchel SP 31
    Garrett Richards SP 31
    Adam Wainwright SP 37
    J.A. Happ SP 36
    Trevor Cahill SP 31
    C.C. Sabathia SP 38

    Lot of old dudes, and only a couple that really stand out, and they are getting 4-5 yr x $20M per or so from someboday.

    Give me the upside of the young guys in system now..with Bailey (he isn’t getting DFA’d), Disco and Castillo. Plenty there to fill a 2019 Reds rotation.

    • WVRedlegs

      Many of those have injury histories worse than Harvey’s. Charlie Morton wants to be closer to his family in Delaware. Cincinnati is closer than Houston, but Philly or Washington would be next door. Dallas Keuchel may be the one to go after as he has a very minimal injury history. Corbin is going to the Yankees as most of his family lives in NY and are big Yankees fans.

      • Sliotar

        Good stuff there, WV.

        I have heard already a couple of times already that Keuchel is going to be a big beneficiary of “we didn’t land Corbin, make sure we get the next best LH FA pitcher.”

        It seems very unlikely to me that the Reds would pay $20M or more next season for Keuchel in the same season they are paying Bailey about the same.

        Now…taking Bailey’s salary for 2020, post-buyout, and using it towards a FA SP in the winter of 2019….could be.

      • WVRedlegs

        I agree with you that the pickings will be slim once the top 3 or 4 pitchers sign. And I also agree that it will be very risky going 4-5 years on a contract with an AAV of $20M+.
        Now if they trade Scooter and BHam, the funds are there to make it work. If they miss out on a nice LH starter like Keuchel, I would like to go get LHP Andrew Heaney from LA Angels. Heaney has an injury history too, but he has had a very solid season his year. And the Angels need to fill a few holes in their lineup.
        However, with that list and the injury histories of that group, I think the Reds will go after Harvey instead and that will be their big off-season move. That will probably help keep Scooter in the fold. BHam is another question altogether though.
        The Reds front office was a day late and a dollar short last off-season on Yelich. They can’t be that way with a good starter this winter. It is go big or go home time. Same with the manager. Riggleman isn’t the answer and the Reds need a solid pick here too. The Reds front office to-do list is bigger than it should have been for this winter. Too much heavy lifting to do that they will find a way mess it all up. The Reds front office has painted themselves into a corner and they have to come out in a big way. They need to do something big to help create some interest and buzz among a very, very dissatisfied and dwindling fan base.

    • Matt Hendley

      This list is somewhat misleading…Wainwright is retiring, Sabathia is a yankee or retireing… tillman cratered and needs to retire, i think bucholz is hurt, ryu might go back to korea. I gotta say kutchel, or corbin, although word from oakland is jackson has turned himself around, happ may be worth a look, hellekson and Sanchez are both sinkerballers but there is too much risk. The name.that is missing though. KERSHAW…he is opting out. I know the likely hood of us getting him is like peace on the korean peninsula but hey wait….liok at cnn….lol

      • lost11found

        I’d rather go Keuchel over Kershaw. Clayton has missed a bunch of time over the last few years with non-arm problems (back as I recall). I also like Keuchel approach (ground balls) but we will have to shore up the infield D to make that successful.

      • Scott C

        I don’t think that the Reds are going to be able to sign a top tier pitcher, especially with the a) the completion for those top tier guys will push the asking price up too high. The Reds SHOULD NOT overpay for a pitcher the risk is too. (See Homer Bailey) and b) Why would they want to pitch in GABP?
        IMHO they should troll the minors for top pitching prospects, or young promising MLB pitchers who have high ceiling.

    • VaRedsFan

      Which is why they could Senzel as the centerpiece of a Latos-like deal for a younger starter (Blake Snell)

    • Hotto4Votto

      Yeah I keep racking my brain to find a legitimate trade target or FA pitcher that would slot into the top of the rotation. There are a few targets (Snell, Syndergard etc) I’d like to see the Reds pursue, but am unsure of their availability. For the prospect capital it would take any trade target needs to come with at least 3 seasons of control.

      Kershaw isn’t opting out to sign with the Reds. Corbin wants to play for the Yankees. How much would Keuchel cost and should they risk that AAV on the chance he continues his production and health? I’m sure the Reds recent competitiveness and ballpark will play a factor as well.

      No easy answers. It’s not going to as simple as go add some pitching.

  5. WVRedlegs

    Fantastic outing by MiLo. He deserves those 2 starts on Sunday and the last game. Great relief pitching. Iglesias.made it interesting with a leadoff walk to have the tying run at the plate. But then he just smoked Yelich, Santana and Perez.
    Very good post game interview by MiLo. Very diplomatic. He is just a good teammate.

    • Matt WI

      Iggy’s stuff was cooking again… I felt like there was a period when he was a bit flat, but he was live last night. Just smoked Yelich indeed.

  6. TomN

    Can’t wait for his next two starts. If Lorenzen isn’t a candidate for an SP slot (and a leading favorite after Castillo and Disco), there’s no justice in the world and the front office should all fire themselves. I’ve never understood the rationale behind not giving Lorenzen a chance to start. Some fear of injury? That’s about true with every other pitcher. I have to see Reed is also looking very good btw.

    Maybe our 5 SPs next year should be Castillo, Disco, Lorenzen, Reed and, gulp, Harvey.

    • VaRedsFan

      Maybe because he tried starting twice, and had to be shutdown twice?

      • greenmtred

        Pretty sure that Lorenzen got hurt starting, too, but that was awhile ago and he seems to have changed his approach a bit–not relying on throwing as hard as he can. I wonder whether Romano looking more like a reasonable bullpen guy might make it easier for the Reds to give Lorenzen a real shot at starting.

      • Scott C

        I believe Lorenzen got hurt in spring training before getting completely stretched out.

      • Dewey Roberts

        Lorenzen hurt his arm in spring training a few years ago, but that was it for him. He pitched extensively one season but was sent for being ineffective—not for an arm injury.

  7. TomN

    It pains me not to put Mahle in there (as a top 5). I was such a fan of his early in the year. Not sure what happened to him starting just before the ASG. But he totally went into the crapper. I still think he’s got a shot at being a very good SP. I suppose he just needs to develop another pitch.

    • David

      Arm fatigue. Let him get some starts next year.

    • Hotto4Votto

      The Mahle situation is compounded by the fact the Reds blew an extra year of control by bringing him up to make one abbreviated start and then rest him (on the big league roster) the rest of the year. If they don’t recall him he’s under a full season of service time.

      • lost11found

        Not a big deal. They could option him to AAA in the spring for more seasoning and easily get that time back. It might even be good for his development at this point.

    • Jim Walker

      The first thing to determine whether Mahle’s shoulder is just “tired” or whether something more significant is going on with it. They don’t seem to want to declare him shutdown but on the other hand, it seems they aren’t about to use him.

  8. Jreis

    I like Reed, Castillo, , Lorenzen,Disco, and Harvey (or other old dude free agent) as our starters for next year with Romano and Mahle as middle relief
    Hughes, Hernandez, Peralta and Garret as short relief and Iglesias as closer.
    With Lorenzen used as a bench player on non starting daysThis allows you to carry 13 pitchers

  9. Klugo

    Had the FO just heeded my posts on here this time last year, Lorenzen wouldve started all year. Really, I think he wouldve had his opportunities to start already had he stayed healthy. Same for ’19.

    If Reds are gonna keep “sorting” (aka tanking), Lorenzen,Castillo,Disco,Reed, and Stephenson should be the starters in ’19.

    • Klugo

      If they wanna compete, then only Lorenzen and Disco stay in the rotation. Bailey gets a shot in ST to show either a changed, more effective approach as a starter or a willingness to relieve (if not , then release him). Release or trade BobSteve. Get 3 competent starters. Castillo,Reed,and Mahle wait for an opportunity while pitching AAA. Romano,Garret in the pen.

      • Daytonian

        Wow. Overly tough on Castillo. Certainly not the minors for Castillo. He’s more likely to belong toward the front of the rotation.

      • lwblogger2

        Yeah, I read “Castillo” there and let out an audible “What? He’s probably been the Reds best starter.”

      • lwblogger2

        He’s been inconsistent but a lot of young pitchers struggle with that. I don’t like a strict month-to-month breakdown, especially for pitchers as they get something like 20-30 IP in a given month and one crap outing can wreck your numbers… He needs to work on command in the zone and make sure he’s getting some vertical movement on his pitches. That should reduce his main problem which is the long-ball.

  10. jeffversion1

    Whether you think he should get a shot as a starter or not, if the Reds decided they just aren’t going to try him there past this Sept., why bother starting him at all? Is there no one in the org who might be a starter next year who could start a few games, just to take a look?

    • greenmtred

      Good question, and I think it probably means that they are going to give him a chance as a starter, regardless of Rig’s official statement.

      • Jeff Reed

        Hopefully Riggs won’t have anything to say about Lorenzen as a starter after the end of Sept.

  11. cfd3000

    Very encouraging start from Lorenzen. And Reed’s last start was even more so – 5 innings, 2 hits, 0 runs and 10 K’s. if those two guys finally emerge from the sorting (as it was) that would be huge for the Reds rotation. Two more starts for Michael and Cody. I’m rooting hard for good results and some positive momentum (yep, I said it) for 2019.

    And despite the flailing of Interim Jim I’ve finally had some reasons to look forward to Reds games the last couple of weeks. The emergence of Philip Ervin as a real contributor, the reemergence of Joey Votto to remind us that he is in fact not done yet, and the auditions for Cody Reed and Michael Lorenzen have reinvigorated my enthusiasm for the Reds. I’m actually excited for this last week and a half of baseball, and already looking forward to 2019. Of course, I’m one of RLN’s eternal optimists.

    • citizen54

      Ya Reed’s start was great. I’m surprised more people weren’t talking how good he was against the Cubs. He made Bryant and others look like AAA hitters. I guess the guys in the booth were too busy talking to Arroyo to notice the game.

    • Jim Walker

      I am hoping Ervin can really bear down and finish with a flourish. Otherwise he risks falling back into the static a ways. Teams are adjusting to him. Nevertheless he is still able to run a lot of deep counts; but, he seems to have lost his edge to deliver. In this regard he reminds me some of how Duvall was struggling much of the year. On the other hand, i think he has managed to offset a lot of the earlier questions about his base running and defense.

      • lwblogger2

        I’m not too worried about Ervin but that’s partially because I don’t think he’s quite the hitter that he was for a while there. Ervin will give you professional plate appearances. He’s probably not going to hit around .300, perhaps not even .275, but he’s young enough to still have upside there. He’ll also take his share of walks and has some pop. If he can handle CF regularly, I think he’s a good enough hitter for his bat to play as a CF. Otherwise, I think he’s a really nice 4th OF that can cover all 3 OF positions and handle himself decently at the plate. There’s value in that and I think that’s probably what he is.

      • Jim Walker

        The Reds are seriously devoid of RH hitting OF right now. I hope Ervin can grow into that role unless of course Senzel ends up there. Right I think maybe the org is seeing Senzel’s tenure in OF as bridge to Siri but that still leaves them short unless Senzel stays in OF or Ervin or somebody from outside fills the role.

  12. docproctor

    Saw a stat in the paper this morning that our pitchers lead the league in BA by opposing LH hitters. That shouldn’t surprise any of us.
    One more reason to hope that Reed emerges as a starter, and that Garrett keeps developing.

  13. lost11found

    Last night was a great night to have the Reds-only package. Great start by Lorenzen, threw strikes (good game by the ump I thought-didn’t squeeze ML), and if this continues he will force himself into the conversation. I thought the best play he made last night was in the first inning to start the DP. Going toward first and throws a stike to second.

    Also enjoyed seeing Ramanos outing. His breaking pitch was great last night. I’d still keep him in the thought process for the rotation, but it was good to see a very strong multi-inning stint out of him last night.

    • Jeff Reed

      Big Sal seems comfortable coming into the game from the bullpen.

    • Jim Walker

      Yes on starting the GIDP. A number of pitchers would not have gotten to that ball to get even 1 out let alone the DP. Along with getting himself out of trouble, that play probably also saved the pitches to get him the 4th inning of work, although I still don’t understand why he was on such a restrictive pitch count when he had gone 60 or more pitches twice already this season.

  14. Matt WI

    “Guys he got Christian Yelich out!”…. on that alone he is first in line for an open starting position.

    • Nick Carrington

      Yelich is 1 for 12 against Lorenzen in his career, which is crazy.

      • lwblogger2

        Small sample size… That said, there are some pitchers where you just don’t see the ball as well as you do off other guys. Hitting is hard and baseball is strange.

  15. sultanofswaff

    Looking at stats this morning, the top 7 teams in OPS and WHIP are likely headed to the playoffs. Point is, you gotta be good on both sides of the ball.

    Offensively the Reds are 4th in OBP and hits, 17th in strikeouts, 20th in home runs, 11th in OPS.

    Pitching the Reds are 1st in HRs allowed, 23rd in strikeouts, 4th in hits, and 10th in walks.

    Not that it’s a revelation, but I think we can agree the offense will likely stay the course, but without major changes to the starting pitching this team has no chance of sniffing the playoff in the tough NL Central.

  16. Kyle Farmer

    CTrent reported yesterday that Bailey is again essentially refusing to pitch in relief. If this is accurate, then don’t the Reds have any recourse to get rid of him and not eat the remaining money on his contract?

    Are contracts in MLB so ironclad guaranteed that a healthy player can simply refuse to take the field and still get his money?

    • WVRedlegs

      Yeah, something is going to have to be done about this. Jim Walker has touched on this a few times this year. If players can have opt-outs in their contracts after a few years, why can’t teams have them also?
      There is going to have to be quite a bit of give and take on both the players side and the owners side in negotiating the next Collective Bargaining Agreement. The players get the money AND service time accredited while being out a whole year while the team gets hamstrung on their budget.
      Jim has mentioned something about how the NHL or NBA handles this but I can’t remember the specifics. I don’t follow either of those leagues.

      • Kyle Farmer

        Don’t the clubs generally carry insurance on players that pays out if they miss significant time?

        I really don’t have an issue with a player getting paid and service time when they are injured. I also don’t have an issue with teams sending a player down to gain an extra year of service time when the situation calls for it.

        My issue is when a healthy player, in this case Bailey, flat out refuses to play. In my book, that is breach of contract and the Reds should be able to dump him without penalty.

      • lost11found

        With the limited amount of leverage players have early in their careers, I’m okay with them having some leverage later on in the form of 10-5, player, or mutual options. The reds probably would have had to pay more salary to get that to be a mutual or team option. The rapid decline likely due to injury is not possible to predict.

        With Baily, he needs to try the pen or be put on the 60 day DL so they dont have to put him on the 40-man roster. He will still get his money, but if he won’t go to the pen, ties need to be cut.

    • Matt Hendley

      Yes they are that ironclad. The arguement will be that HB said he was signed to be a starter and was never developed to be a reliever. The reds go and do it anyway he will take a greivence to the union. Saying that the reds are demonstratively trying to deminish his value. That looks bad even if he loses the case. Makes FA less likely to come here. As long as he is willing to start, and he is, the money is garrenteed. Insurance only applies to injuries and in 99% of the cases you need it in place before hand. After all what insurance company is going to insure your car after you wreck it.

      • MrRed

        Gotta disagree all around here. I doubt his contract states that HB will only be used as a starter. He gets paid whether he starts, relieves or doesn’t play at all. The team is free to use him or not in whatever role they see fit.

        And let’s see HB take up that grievance with the union. I doubt he would but for the sake of argument, if he does, he doesn’t have a case. His FA prospects are diminished by health and performance not because he was moved to the BP. The numbers speak for themselves. And if the union wants to argue otherwise, they are shooting themselves in the foot.

      • Matt WI

        Agree Mrred… I would be shocked if there was contractual language that says Homer may only pitch if it occurs starting in inning 1. At worst, he gets starter money to be a reliever. The team could DFA him if they wanted if he remains intractable about this, and he’d get his cash. It’s not a lot different than when someone like Tim Tebow says “I will only be a QB” and then teams don’t want to use him that way. At least in baseball, they keep the full money they signed for.

        It would be interesting to know if there is some sort of “insubordination” clause or way to make his refusal “conduct detrimental to the team” that would void the money. That’s a slope nobody probably wants to go down if it can be avoided.

        I get why this is a blow to Homer’s ego and pride. Not too many of us would feel good about being told “stop doing the thing you’ve worked all your life for because you’re not good enough anymore.” But, we all have our choices about how to respond to that, and Homer has to decide how he wants to go forward. Right now it seems he’s willing to bet that his owed money is leverage enough, and thus far he’s been correct.

      • Matt WI

        I would also like to think that most people viewing this from the outside (including other players) would be able to agree that this is not the Reds being insincere and messing with a player– the bullpen demotion was earned on the field of play. Homer brought that on himself as much as anything.

      • Matt Hendley

        Its possible, couple counter arguements, 1. Players unions are to fight arguements for the players, not to decide the merits, thats 5he arbitrators job. 2.HB contract does defer half of his money each year to november, (this allows bob c to store the 25 mil away and pay bailey with his own interest, kinda ingenious from a financial standpoint). If bailey is traded or DFA then that Deferment ends and the money is owed immediately. Maybe that is something that the reds cannot afford. The reds are not going to hold a 25 man spot on him and not use him next year so the question is will he recover. Besides, HB has been the victim of horrendous run support, and horrendous feilding along with being an horendous pitcher. If it were 30$ million question which it is, he starts next year, and we all learn our lession on massive contracts.

      • Hotto4Votto

        Agreed MrRed. Bailey is the employee, he needs to do what’s asked of him in a baseball capacity. If he refuses he really doesn’t have any high ground, he’s just a disgruntled employee. I don’t know the Reds would go about filing for a breach of contract or who would even decide on it, but if he refuses to perform in a role he’s being asked to, I think that the Reds would have a valid case.

      • Matt Hendley

        And that is why there are these beautiful things called unions. To meet his contract homer bailey needs to show up to work. On the issue of the Bullpen. HB has indicated, that it would take to long for him to warm up. A reasonable statement. So the reds send him anyway. He is sent in releif anyway, he is slammed, he indicates he wasnt warm. Reds repeat. HB then does have a grievance. That he is being deliberately placed into situations where he has indicated he cannot perform to his best, and that the reds continuing to do so, is diminishing his FA value. The arbitrator sides with HB, and then instead of 30 mil now you owe HB 40+. The only way you are getting HB or any baseball player for Breach of contract, is if they dont show up. I.e. they retire, are arrested, or plain die. Baseball contracts are notorious ly the most player friendly garrenteed contracts in all of sports. Prince fielder got paid 3 years after he retired on a contract he was on. For everyones information all contract conflicts are routed through the players union and usually settled in arbitration. Bottom line, homer bailey by November 2019 will have 30 million dollars more then he.does.this year.

      • Hotto4Votto

        So we’re going to take Bailey’s word as gospel that he’s physically incapable of pitching out of the bullpen? And no, I don’t think it’s a reasonable statement, pitchers should be able to pitch where the team has best use for them. It shouldn’t be up to him where he pitches from anymore than Hamilton should decide where he hits in the order.

        If Bailey sucks from the bullpen it’s because he sucks as a pitcher anymore. If the union took on that case as you laid it out they’d look like huge idiots.

        Bailey needs to show up and pitch where the team asks him, it’s his job, he’s getting paid well for it.

      • Steve Mancuso

        To be fair, we really haven’t heard what Bailey has to say about pitching out of the bullpen, other than “probably not” from a couple months ago, which could be interpreted in a number of ways. We’ve just heard Riggleman’s characterization of it, which I don’t trust as gospel either.

  17. Bill

    That bum Votto, who can’t hit when it counts, is in a rapid age related decline, and is overpaid, has raised his OPS to within .001 of Gennett and .2 WAR. He is once again going to lead the league in OBP. Yes, Gennett is cheaper, but he hasn’t signed his first contract yet. Even a 35 year old Votto having his worst year as a professional is still putting up All Star numbers.

    • dougschloemer

      I Love Votto but….he is stilll behind Peraza in HR’s and XBH… Who saw THAT coming in March?

  18. Douglas Hyde

    Always love seeing Lorenzo have a good game, but what the Reds have a lot of is “Potential Starters for 2019” I wish a couple guys had stepped up with more consistency. They almost all had spurts where we thought, “this is it, they have turned the corner”. But alas. NOT! Good win tonight.

  19. roger garrett

    We all know the Reds have failed to develop starting pitching but is it because so many just don’t have it or is it because they haven’t gave them a legit chance?.Castillo and Romano have 40 + starts in the big leagues while the rest of them(6 or 7) aren’t even close.Outside of Mahle who hit the wall,the Reds anoint or throw them under the bus after just a few starts or sometimes even from start to start.Won’t work that way so here we are again trying to figure out who can or can’t because they aren’t committed to finding.I don’t look to the past but wouldn’t you think after the past three years at least we would have more then two guys with 40 starts.Bob,Lorenzen.and Garret at the least should have that many which would give you a better idea but together they don’t have that many.They are the oldest of the group and we should know about them.In order to improve the pitching the Reds must stay the course with what they have or trade some of their so called untouchable everybody loves them players,which if you look and ask how many would start on other teams just in our division,you might think wow they aren’t really that good.In any rebuild you must have a plan and the biggest commitment is to the players to let them show their stuff..Also the fan base must be told hey we are going to lose but we will be back.The Reds still are losing and know little about their players because they continue to stock pile prospects and do nothing with them.They give them a few at bats or starts and hope they are Cy Young or Ted Williams after a few games.When they struggle and all will they just throw them back in the pile and continue on.

    • Douglas Hyde

      Agreed, seems like a lot of playing it day to day with no real long term commitment twords the rebuild. This is a lost season, Should have never started with Price and stuck with Homer as long as the did. But, hindsight is 40/40. I would not be suprised to see us start next season with Harvey/Disco/Castillo as the front of the rotation. We have plenty of young talent to fill the other spots.

    • Matt Hendley

      Your right and wrong, lorenzen should get the opertunity to start. Garret has indicated he perfers releif. As for bob steve, i am genuinely surprised that anyone is shocked by his performance issues. His problems in the minors weren’t resolved. His results came from playing against lower calaber hitters. He needs to make the fixes he’s told. Or he will be a bust

      • roger garrett

        I agree but the Reds never move on from anybody because they are afraid they will get it somewhere else,look at Billy for example.As long as you keep adding to the deck and continue to shuffle you never ever come up with a winning hand.Got to make decisions for example as the Cards do with Pham and move on.As far as Bob Steve if they released him tomorrow somebody would give him a job.

  20. WVRedlegs

    I know Peraza has some defensive things to work on this winter. His offense has been such a nice surprise after last year. They had him on a post game interview with Piecoro last night. He was in a t-shirt. He just looks so much thicker through his upper body now than he has before. I don’t know if he is working out with Lorenzen or Suarez or not, but he is doing something. I hope it isn’t PED related as I would hate to see him get busted like Seattle’s Cano did. But his 13 HR’s this year I hope are a precursor for the seasons ahead. He looks to have 20 HR power, which I would have thought impossible before. He is bulking up much like Suarez has. Very good to see. Hope they both work together on their defense this winter.

    • Kyle Farmer

      Agreed. This seems like a breakout year for Peraza. Hoping for a great future for him if he can improve, even just marginally, as a SS.

  21. Scott C

    I am in the “Let Lorenzen start” camp and was disappointed that Riggleman did not allow him to go out in the fifth. If he started to get hit or get his pitch count up over 65 to 70 then he could have been pulled.
    And Williams catch in centerfield showed that we can have someone other than Billy playing competently in CF. Billy’s slash line is 237/299/367 while Williams is 296/327/417 (I know small sample size). Add to that Phil Ervin (255/330/418), who if you’ve been watching has significantly improved his defense, both in coverage and his throws, then you have to guys that would provide a significant amount of value offensively than Billy and be more than competent CFs.

  22. sultanofswaff

    More and more I’m thinking the right move for next year is to go with a 4 man rotation. It’s just easier to find 4 decent AFFORDABLE starters than 5, plus it gives you one more reliever. The bullpen managed just fine this year with the starters only going 5 innings. While there isn’t top end quality in the bullpen by and large, there are plenty of guys who can get outs in short stints. Seems to be the new model anyways, and seems way more logical to pony up prospects to acquire that one quality starting pitcher than it is to acquire two…..and tying your hands payroll-wise into the future.

    This is the offseason to empty the farm (save for Senzel/Greene/TStephenson) to acquire pitching. There literally is nothing left to gain by holding onto so many blocked players.

    • Scott C

      Don’t disagree with your theory, but I do think one of young arms could still fill out the 5’th spot. And I would make off limits Senzel, T Stephenson and Trammel are untouchable. If three is the number you want to keep and I am not even sure about Stephenson if his inclusion in the trade brings back the needed return.

    • roger garrett

      Nor is there anything to gain by sending out the same guys that have lost 90+games for 4 straight years.Trade them or your prospects and get some pitching.Personally I prefer trading older more expensive players especially if I had guys to fill in until better players in the minors are ready.we found out that Ervin can play,we found out Casali could play,we found out Dixon can play multiple positions and has some pop.Again personally if I could find a willing trading partner that had a league average pitcher with some upside I would send Iggy,Scooter,Billy and a young pitcher in a heart beat and never look back.That’s 20 mil or more out the door minus what the new pitcher costs.Ervin goes to the outfield and Senzel or Herrera or Dixon play second.I would worry about a closer if and when I need one.I could use the rest of the money and get a starter in free agency.Just one way to improve our pitching.Would Ervin and Senzel provide just as much offense/defense as Billy and Scooter?Who knows?

  23. jreis

    I think last nights game is a blue print for our pitching for next year. we may not have quality pitchers but we do have quantity

    we can really stack our bullpen and with Lorenzen we could consider carrying 13 pitchers as he can be used as a pinch hitter as well. this could limit the amount of times our starters have to go through the line up for the dreaded ” 3rd ” time. I like Mahle and Romano coming out of the bullpen next year. both of those guys could give you 80 -90 innings a piece.

  24. Old-school

    Lorenzen is finishing strong and becoming one of the positive pitching stories of 2018. (And hitting stories. ) He’s thrown 71 innings and could pass Hughes for most innings pitched by a reliever . Considering he didn’t pitch until May 23- that’s a big workload.

    Riggleman is extensively interviewed in the Athletic today . He says the game has changed and SP need to adjust to 4-5 inning roles if they can’t go further .He likened Lorenzen and Garrett and Romano to Josh Hader roles. Come in the middle innings and slam the door. Win the game

    If lorenzen and Garrett pitch 100 innings and are are used in high leverage sutuations- that’s a novel idea. I dont carecif they start. Romano might be in that mix too.

    Sign Harvey to a reasonable 2 year contract. He can give you 5-6 innings. Castillo can give you 6. Disco.Reed and Mahle give you 4-5..

    • Nick Carrington

      That’s all fine and well as long as Lorenzen, Garrett, or Romano aren’t one of the five best equipped to give you 4-5 (and occasionally 6) innings to start the game. Small sample but Lorenzen was better the second time through the order against a contending team than the first. I’ll be interested to see how he does the second time through the order in his last two starts, assuming he gets them.

      • Old-school

        It’s good to see Lorenzen succeed. I just want to see more. He is unique with his poise and confidence and versatility. He fears no situation. He’s on my roster for TNGRT.