Brewers 6, Reds 1
Box Score | Win Probability

Good Things:

–Michael Lorenzen. My goodness. Turn him into Otani. I’m only half kidding. Lorenzen pitched three innings, allowing only one run and hit a home run of his own. Not. Bad. At all.

–Sal Romano. Development pretty much looks like Sal Romano. There are a lot of bumps on the road, but you see some good stuff, too. There’s promise here, at least.

Bad Things:

The non-pitching offense. This team can hit, but even teams that can hit have days when they don’t such was today.

Run down plays shouldn’t be hard. And yet… C’mon Tucker.

Yikes that ninth inning.

Thoughtful Thinkings:

This seemed like one of those games that teams just lose sometimes. It just happens. I suppose I could dig and find a story or make an issue. But a team loses sometimes. And tonight, the Reds lost. Back at it tomorrow.

*Captain Kirk Voice* I’ve never trusted the Brewers and I never will. I can never forgive them for the death of the ’99 Reds.


54 Responses

    • Jason Linden

      Belated, but sorry. They kept piling on in the ninth and I kept changing the score. Forgot that last homer, obviously.

  1. Steve Mancuso

    Second night in a row that the score was close at the end of the game. But Riggleman didn’t use Hughes, Hernandez or Iglesias either night because he saves those guys for situations when the score is tied or Reds are ahead. Bottom of bullpen gave up runs both nights.

    Though Riggleman handled Romano well. Pulled him proactively to prevent him from facing the Brewers a third time. Brought in Lorenzen for three innings. Strategy straight from my post earlier today. I’ll be watching my email for a job offer. Will let you know when it arrives.

    I didn’t think Barnhart was that bad on the rundown. He forced the runner back to third and could see the runner at second heading all the way to third as well. Both runners on third = automatic out. But then runner from second stops a step short and heads back. Is out easily at second. With a throw from second base anywhere near homeplate, the runner is out there. I put more of the ultimate blame on the throw.

    Riggleman chose to pinch hit for Lorenzen instead of Billy Hamilton in the 8th inning. I guess he thought Lorenzen’s home run wasn’t deep enough. Seriously, Lorenzen probably would have made an out, but Hamilton was certainly overmatched by the power reliever. Hamilton looked terrible. He’s had 2300+ at bats and the Reds don’t know yet that he’s a terrible hitter?

    • Mark Lang

      The runner going back to third was a good 6 to 8 feet from the baseline too – I have no idea why he wasn’t out for that reason alone and then the out at 2nd would have ended the inning.

    • bouwills

      You do know that Riggleman had previously brought Crockett into close games 4 times the last 8 days & he had performed well in all 4 occasions. Reds won 3 of those 4 games & it was Hernandez that was charged with a blown save in that loss, not Kyle Crockett. After Crockett’ appearance the score is what? 4-1 or 5-1 with 1 out to go? You want Iglesias, Hughes, or Hernandez then? Come on, the manager did not lose either of the last 2 games & probably makes the best use of the Reds bullpen over the course of the whole season.

      • scotly50

        If Riggleman mentions anything about espousing analytic method, he would be written, and commented, about favorably. You just have to “read in” the agenda when reading certain posters.

      • Steve Mancuso

        I wasn’t talking about using Crockett, who has pitched well. My complaint is about Stephens Friday and Floro Thursday. Didn’t say the manager lost the game. You can bet if the Reds have a three or four run lead tonight, Hughes and Hernandez will be in there, Iglesias too. You might consider that best use, but I don’t.

      • bouwills

        I don’t consider to know enough to make an informed decision about “best use” of the Reds bullpen on a daily basis. I doubt you do either. What I do know is that every time the Reds lose a lead, or Winker doesn’t start, or the sp gives up runs in his last inning of work, then it’s all the manager’s fault (Price or Riggleman). Sparky Anderson couldn’t win 83 games with this roster.

      • Scott Carter

        My issue was not with bringing Crockett in, Crockett left two runners on base, that scored but at that point why not use Hernandez, Hughes, then perhaps Crockett had a chance of not giving up those two runs. It was the same issue the other night with Disco’s last two runs.

    • VaRedsFan

      How about you toss the ball to the 3rd baseman for the tag out on of the runner going back to 3rd, then you still have the runner caught between 2nd and 3rd? At worst, you have 1 out nobody scores, and probably a 75 % chance that you get both runners out.

      • Steve Mancuso

        That’s perfect hindsight. The entire point is that Barnhart didn’t *know* the runner was going back to second. He thought the runner was coasting into third, which is really common in rundowns. If both runners are at third, the *correct* play is to run the lead runner back to the base and not risk a throw. And if the throw from second to home is accurate, they get both outs.

  2. CI3J

    I missed the carnage of the 9th inning, but I can piece together what happened by evidence.

    Which begs the question: Why do managers not use their best relievers when the game is within +/- 3 runs?

    Ok, when it’s +2 runs, especially late, then you can expect to see the good relievers. But why throw in the towel when you’re only down by 2, especially given in the 9th the Reds were one hit away from scoring 2 or more runs? Save those bad relievers for when it’s +/- 4 runs in either direction

  3. Roger garrett

    The other team is just better and we did not show up on offense tonight. We lost that game long before the circus came to town the last two innings. I hope we show up tomorrow because we sure were embarrassed tonight by their starter. We gave up two runs and the gift in eight and we should be able to win those games. Way to many holes on offense.

  4. Old-school

    Reds lost 8-2. No way reds win this game. Zero offense and bad defense and pitching no where near food enough. Last night was winnable . They still lost.

    Gotta win tomorrow or momentum is lost.

  5. davy13

    What the heck happened with the rundown in the 8th?! I know I’m overstating it, but sloppy, careless plays like that serve as a microcosm of this team’s season. It is inexcusable. It might’ve influenced Riggleman not to bring in a top reliever for the 9th. Yet I agree with Steve and CI3J that he should’ve brought in one of the best relievers anyways; the score was close enough.

    Could there be a good case made for Lorenzen to start just to have his power bat in the lineup?

    • Jeff Reed

      It’s time to cut Lorenzen loose either as a starting pitcher or a regular outfielder. Too much offense going to waste.

  6. Jack

    Dear Front Office,
    Stay with the rebuild and don’t let a touch of success change your plans. You have a ways to go still. Make your trades and sort out the crap. I know it’s hard but don’t screw it up.

    • Mason Red

      “Stay with the rebuild”? How long are you willing to wait? Another 3-4 years? They need to make the trades that will get this team over the hump for NEXT season.

      • Jack

        “Make your trades, and sort out the crap”
        Did you not comprehend that? Follow along it’s not difficult.

      • Mason Red

        I respect your opinions but I have mine. This is a place to share opinions or so I thought. No need to get offended just because I may disagree. There’s enough of that going on.

  7. Jim Walker

    Missed the 9th inning live but if I read the play by play correctly on, the Brewers scored 5 after having 2 out and nobody on base?!? Count me among those wondering why not Hughes, Hernandez or even Iggy to try to get to the bottom of the 9th down 3-1. If one of them was brought on and gave up a big hit like happened with Stephens, they could have been pulled after that hitter to save them for tomorrow.

    I really wonder who is making some of these calls both on the pitching and offensive side of the ball too. Seems like Riggleman either isn’t getting good advice or is not following it.

  8. Joe Atkinson

    Was at the game tonight, and disagree with the “The Reds weren’t going to win this one …” storyline. They were outplayed in nearly every facet of the game … and still entered the 8th inning down only 2-1. That’s a very winnable game.

    Then …

    The rundown. I get what Steve is saying about Tucker running him back to get both guys on the bag. But you have to assume the other baserunner saw the same thing happening – you make the throw to 3rd and get the lead runner. Period. That’s a high school play; absolutely no excuse for a run scoring on what should have been an easy, gift out.

    Follow that with the decision to pinch-hit for Lorenzen, who had – at that point – accounted for the only run in the game. But he has two home runs in the past week, including a rocket in his first at-bat tonight. I suspect the Brewers were thrilled to face Duvall instead.

    And then … okay, we go to Kyle Crockett. Not my first choice, but he’s been solid. When he gets in trouble, though … Jackson Stephens? Stephens is the guy you bring in to throw gas on a dumpster fire, not the guy to get the critical out in that moment when you’re teetering on the edge between “We’re still in this” and “Maybe tomorrow night.”

    The Brewers outplayed the Reds tonight, yes. But entering the 8th inning, this was a very winnable ballgame. Poor fundamentals and bad decisions may not have lost the game, but they definitely put it out of reach.

    • Jim Walker

      Thanks for the good eyeball report. I certainly agree with your take. Not getting one of the bullpen “A team” ready for 1 out down 3-1 for me is basically surrendering, saying we can’t catch you anyway. If that’s how the Reds brain trust saw it, maybe they need a new one?

    • VaRedsFan

      Nice synopsis. Totally agree with the rundown play. No excuse for Tucker there.
      Riggleman was in give up mode the other night against the Cubs when he double switched Suarez out of the game in the SIXTH inning. I don’t like give up mode unless its the 9th and you are out of slam range.

  9. Scott Gennett

    Typical old school approach, saving for tomorrow when you don’t know if will survive today, they’d have reached the bottom of 9th inning only two runs down. I really believe Reds are one SP and one OF away from contention, but with another manager.

    • Jeff Reed

      That’s why the Reds must trade Scooter while his value is high to get a starting pitcher to anchor the rotation. It’s time to find out what Herrera can do at second base. Lorenzen should spend some time in right field. He certainly has a strong enough arm for that position and the guy is a hitter. And Schebler should start in center and lead off. Hamilton and Duvall should be traded in the next month as a part of a bigger trade or for what the Reds can get.

  10. Jim Walker

    I’ve felt for sometime as the Reds have lingered around .500 since Riggleman took charge that the real telling circumstance was not that they were playing .500 under Riggleman for an extended period because there were sequences where the same happened with Price over the last several years.

    Where Price really came up short was and what Riggleman should be jusged on is his ability to marshal his team and stop a skid, to keep a 2 or 3 game losing streak from going to 4, to 5, to 6 etc or 11 of 12 like seemed to happen so often with Price.

    With 2 down to the Brewers and the only real potential soft spot between now and the All Star break being 3 with the White Sox at GABP, it is game on for Riggleman and Co over the 14 games, 9 of which will be on the road.

    • Steve Mancuso

      In no way do I want to defend Bryan Price, but I suspect Riggleman’s record wouldn’t be as “good” without Eugenio Suarez, Scott Schebler, Anthony DeSclafani and Matt Harvey (somewhat). Even Jesse Winker missed a couple of those early games.

  11. DHud

    That was the dumbest play I’ve ever seen a professional baseball team make. Two guys stood there and let an opposing player who 1) was picked off third and 2) fell down in the process walk back into the base. And then to make matters worse they throw the ball around the diamond like a little league team.

    Throw the ball to peraza. Broxton is tagged out easily. THEN you probably STILL have time to throw to second and get the double play!

    And don’t tell me “well they thought both runners were coming to the base.” 1) it didn’t happen. Why assume a player is going to run into an out? 2) Literally the exact same thing happened last week when the trail runner did not go all the way to the bag. Baseball IQ of a rock

    • DHud

      I literally did this one time in high school. It is not a difficult concept.

      Had a runner caught between 2nd and 3rd with runner on first. Took the throw at 2nd, turned and let the runner coming from 1st run right into my tag, then turned back and continued the rundown. Everyone stood there stupid like “woah, what just happened??”

      The runners are stupid and they both got themselves out. That’s what just happened.

      Professional ball players should be able to work through this mentally.

    • VaRedsFan

      Exactly!! You never assume anything. You take the sure out and evaluate thereafter.
      As Tommy Lee Jones said “Assumption is the root of all …..”

    • Jim Walker

      Tucker is a great handler of pitchers, very good receiver, and emerging as a more than decent offensive catcher. He’s been weak on tag plays all year and got bit on one last night in addition the fiasco on the rundown. Everybody has their warts. I hope he improves in hjs weak areas and continues to excel at his strengths.

  12. docproctor

    Tucker did not have the ball in his throwing hand during the rundown. It was firmly planted in his mitt. Baseball 101: Keep the ball in your throwing hand–and get the lead runner. This isn’t rocket science. My Knothole kids knew better.

    And bringing in Jackson Stephens is waving the white flag in a winnable game. Crockett against lefties was fine, but Stephens was game over.

  13. roger garrett

    Said it last night and others have as well the game was lost long before the gift in the eighth inning but the ninth was managed wrong by Riggleman.We weren’t going to win because we didn’t hit and Council pulled his starter at the right time but Stephens doesn’t need to be in a game unless your way way behind or way way ahead..Also I agree with Steve that pinch hitting for Lorenzen and letting Billy hit was just dumb.Both were probably going to make and out but Billy can’t hit and against hard throwers he is always over matched.We will have to live with our roster until its changed because we can not win at home unless we can hit it out of the park period.Billy,Peraza and Tucker get the majority of the playing time and barring injury or trades they will play 130 games or more.Yes they do have other skills but in the game today you better be able to get on base or have power or both or you set.

  14. Jim Walker

    Everyone who reads here or sees my tweets (@jn_walkerjr) knows I feel Michael Lorenzen has been mishandled by the Reds since the day he walked into rookie camp thinking he was an OF and was told he was a pitcher first then called during the offseason and told he was a pitcher only. That’s water going 5 years under the bridge now.

    Something which has clearly changed with him is that his body building work perhaps along late natural maturation has made a different man out of him than he was all those years ago. The exit velocity on the balls he is hitting now are consistently among the highest of any Reds player.

    The Reds simply have to find a way to make more complete use of the full spectrum of his talents by using him as a 2 way player or even considering switching him back to an OF.

    • Bill

      Extremely small sample size, but if he could play CF and consistently hit for power we wouldn’t be having conversations about replacing Billy. He could be that right handed bat the lineup is missing and fix CF, and possibly pitch when needed. It’s mostly wishful thinking, but Lorenzen in CF, Senzel at SS and that is a scary lineup. Then I come back to reality and accept that it is an extremely small sample size and that it has evidently been decided Senzel is a 2B

      • docproctor

        But I like your thinking. Too bad the Reds FO doesn’t share it.
        Lorenzen in CF and Senzel at SS sounds awesome.

      • Ernest Howerton

        I’ve been saying centerfield for months now,why not give it a shot.

      • Jim Walker

        Lorenzen is the same proximate age Rick Ankiel was when he began his road back as an OF in the minors. It is a different, tricky and dicey situation because ML is earning his way as a pitcher though not quite the impact guy that the team hoped for him to be. The question from when he came up, OF or pitcher, is now turned around to be could/ is he more valuable to the team long term as an OF/ offensive player than as a pitcher.

        The Reds have three guys in the rotation right now who are 5 inning pitchers. Lorenzen looks like he could do that. Maybe put him in the rotation and use him in the OF and/ or off the bench a couple of days in between to see what develops. Or alternately pair him with one (or two) of the 5 innings starters bring him in following them and maybe try to get him some OF time in the days he isn’t going to pitch. Anything to get him on a regular pitching schedule that allows him to play some in then OF and off the bench.

        Just don’t waste the opportunity because Cincy is the Midwest and we don’t do those kind of limit stretching things in these parts.

      • Old-school

        I enjoy your pregame write-ups that give a state of the bullpen availability for each team going in to the game. Lorenzen makes your job harder now!

        Interesting to see how Lorenzen’s role unfolds the next couple months. From a fan entertainment POV, it certainly adds to the game.

    • big5ed

      But exactly what is the way to do it?

      My guess is that after about 50 ABs, the scouts and analytics staffs will find a hole in his swing or approach, and attack it. To become an effective hitter over the long run, then he would likely have to go back to AA and get in 350 ABs. But in doing so, he would probably have a setback in his pitching.

      I’ve been skeptical about Ohtanifying him, but I’ve come around, even with the HUGE small sample size alert. He is a unique talent with unique character. The Reds do have some time, as they have 3 more years of control. Perhaps they should give him an extension, with the understanding that he would become a 2-way guy.

      With Lorenzen, as opposed to Ohtani, I don’t think that he would need to be DH only, and could play outfield almost every day he isn’t pitching. (Right now he has 2 HRs in 5 ABs, so even if he slows down by half, he would figure to hit 100 homers with 500 ABs, plus log a few saves.)

      The downside is that it would take some creative thinking from Reds’ management. Good luck with that.

      • Old-school

        I think Lorenzen has too much potential as a 100 inning multi purpose high leverage bullpen arm to diminish that part of his player profile. But, he could certainly be used strategically

        – when he pitches to hit for himself.and save a pinch hitter.

        – get real creative and go from the mound to the outfield to the mound for 2-4 outs while a lefty pitcher gets some outs.

        -He is also a great pinch hitter on those inevitable days when the SP doesn’t have it in the 3rd inning and needs pinch hit for but you don’t want to burn a player that early.

        – emergency hitter and outfielder in those 12 inning games that happen 3x a year. He gives the manager an insurance policy to go for the win in the 10th inning.

        – he’s a Swiss army knife.

      • Jim Walker

        Creative thinking and coordination with the player and his agent, Mr Boras, neither which has been Reds hallmarks.

        I believe ML has a full complement of options left; but, is at the service time threshold that he has to agree to be optioned. See if he is willing to do that. I doubt that it would cost him salary in the short run b/c he was arb eligible and thus probably not on a split/ two way deal. It would however cost him service time; so, the Reds are would to have to ante up one way or another, most likely buying out his arb years in an extension on terms very favorable to the player. Essentially this leaves him at no financial risk for taking the risk.

        If all agree, send him to AAA get him on a regular pitching schedule and use him in the OF when he isn’t pitching. Am I missing anything?

      • Shchi Cossack

        Unless ML was optioned out for an extended period of time (more than 5 months), a trip to AAA would have no service time implications. He started the season with 2.159 years of service time. He becomes arb eligible next season even if he didn’t serve an additional day at the MLB level this season and he becomes FA eligible after the 2021 season.

    • Shchi Cossack

      The best use of Lorenzen may very well be teaming him up with Jesse Winker for workouts during the off season to add 20# of muscle in Jesse’s legs and upper body.

      Just looking at the current roster and upper minor league prospects, a WInker, Lorenzen and Schebler OF could be very interesting. I would hate to lose Lorenzen as a pitcher completely, but a relief option coming in from the OF and returning to the OF could work with the right manager handling the substitution and availability. Duvall would play into such an arrangement very effectively with 2-3 inning substitutions in the OF and 1-2 PA while Lorenzen is on the mound. That would certainly be a creative attempt to use of the roster and personnel most effectively. Lorenzen would need some game experience in the field and at the plate to make any realistic determination of his capability to move to the field on a full time basis and contribute offensively. This would certainly seem like the perfect opportunity to make that determination. I would actually approach Lorenzen with the opportunity and gauge his interest in pursuing such an opportunity, combined with the possibility of playing a short time in AAA to make the adjustment.

      This arrangement (primary hitter and secondary pitcher) is actually the opposite of the Ohtani role (primary pitcher and secondary hitter).

      • docproctor

        I love the idea of Lorenzen working out with Winker and putting 20 lbs. of muscle on him.

  15. docproctor

    Just having some dream lineup fun here–arranged them LRLRLRLR

    Schebler RF
    Suarez 3b
    Votto 1b
    Senzel SS
    Gennett 2b
    Lorenzen CF
    Winker LF
    Barnhart C

  16. David

    Has anyone seen Lorenzen play OF let alonr CF? Very few college CFs can play the position in the MLB and we have people convinced the Reds are screwing up not putting him in the OF. Could Lorenzen be a decent PH on days he is not pitching? Maybe but he probably pitches in 60+ games and needs to be available another 30 games when he doesn’t get in. There are probably 60 games when he is free to be used as a pinch hitter and we might have a better idea how good he can hit.

    Michah Owens had everyone excited with long home runs. Even went 4 for 5 with 2 HRs in a game but stayed as a pitcher and not a very good one.

    • Tom

      He’s played College CF. He’s as fast as Pereza. And he’s athletic.

      The downside is that he’s behind in development.

      But, if he can play CF, then it gives the Reds a massive amount of options. He can start CF and potentially pitching an inning of relief once or twice a week, then return to CF. Hamilton can spell him during that inning and be available to pinch run.

      What’s frustrating is that we have a player that wants to be more flexible and contribute more, blasts the f#%! out of the ball at the plate, and can pitch halfway decent.

      AND, the Reds need a better option in CF.

      Personally, I really like a Schebler RF, Lorenzen CF & Winker LF Line Up.

      Pair that with a future infield of Votto 1B, Senzel 2B, India SS, Suarez 3B & Barnhart C and this is a really powerful, balanced core lineup.

      And, until Senzel makes it up, we get to see what Dilson Herrara can do.

      Oh, and whatever we get in trade for Gennett.

    • Jim Walker

      For those not familiar with Lorenzen’s backstory, at CS Fullerton, he was the regular centerfield and pitched only as their closer, coming in from CF to finish out the games.

      I’ve read articles on which indicate essentially every team except the Reds had Lorenzen projected as an OF only and saw him as likely no worse than a 4th OF type.

      He seemed to be generally projected as a mid to late 2nd round choice, early 3rd at latest in this role. Obviously the Reds had concerns he would not be around for their 2nd round pick (#67 overall) because they used a supplemental 1st round pick, #38 overall, to get him. You can google the articles to take a fuller dive.

  17. Old-school

    Certainly not a clean game last night. If only the Reds had another game today to take away the bad taste and see these Reds hitters barrel up some baseballs.

  18. Shchi Cossack

    And Schebler is starting in CF with Hamilton on the bench…

    1. Scott Schebler (L) CF
    2. Jose Peraza (R) SS
    3. Joey Votto (L) 1B
    4. Scooter Gennett (L) 2B
    5. Eugenio Suarez (R) 3B
    6. Jesse Winker (L) RF
    7. Adam Duvall (R) LF
    8. Curt Casali (R) C
    9. Tyler Mahle (R) P