Steve did a good job recapping things last night, but let’s take another look at the controversial ending to last night’s game, in which the umpires handed a victory to the Cardinals that they hadn’t earned (yet):

Here are manager Bryan Price’s post-game comments:

Price should have challenged it. But the simple fact is that the umpires completely blew the call, then ran off the field. It’s ludicrous that they had the ability to get this call correct within a minute of the end of the game, but refused to do it.

Of course, the Reds might have lost anyway. And the game doesn’t mean anything to the Reds, other than the fact that we all love beating the Cardinals.

But what if you’re one of the other teams in the wild card hunt? If I’m the Giants, I’m seriously irritated today. Umpires refusing to do their job in St. Louis might ultimately cost San Francisco a spot in the playoffs.

36 Responses

  1. WVRedlegs

    The umpires blew it. A rule change will be forthcoming next year because of this play.
    It was a comedy of errors that ended this game before the umpires gave the game away. And the Reds probably could have had thrown Carpenter out at home with a little defensive fundamentals. First, Duvall was shadowed way over in left-center field on the right handed hitting Molina for some reason. He had a ways to go to chase down that ball. Second, Duvall overthrows the cutoff man on his throw in. The backup cutoff man gets the ball over just behind the third base bag. When he pivots to throw home, he bobbles the ball for a second. Then after pivoting, he gets off a poor flat-footed, weak throw to home plate.

    • ohiojimw

      Agree Duvall overthrew the primary relay man (Peraza). Suspect DeJesus (the “2nd man”) double clutched because he realized he had virtually no open path to throw the ball by Carpenter to Cabrera for the tag.

      Peraza also had set up at a terrible angle to try and get the ball past Carpenter to Cabrera for the tag; not sure they have a play even if the relay is right to him. As it happened, it wouldn’t have mattered; but perhaps for future reference Peraza needs to reminded to set up so that he gives himself a decent angle for his relay even it that means not being in a straight line between the OF and home plate.

    • Big56dog

      C’mon this game could have gone extra innings, very likely would have had they got the call correct. Iglesias pitched 2 innings last night- I am sure he was not available, you at least try to get 1 more inning out of Wood and then use Lorenzen, who do you realistically use there?

  2. ohiojimw

    I saw Duvall being criticized on another thread for not knowing the ground rules how he handled the situation. I think he has to go on and make the play as he did but then run to one of the umpires and raise the issue if he feels any uncertainty at all.

    • Big56dog

      what about the umpire not knowing the rules, this was not even close- it so obviously hit the sign, how could an umpire think it hit the wall????

      • Big56dog

        I believe the umps did not know the rule and were glad the games was over, I hope the entire crew is suspended

      • Carl Sayre

        I am unsure if this still happens I haven’t heard it mentioned in many years but the umpires reprimands used to be taking their per diem. The late 60’s into the early 70’s you would hear the play by play guy joke about them having to skip some meals because they lost their per diem. I think now it is just the rating system they use will probably be the only thing and that is supposed to be used to determine the best to work post season.

  3. Gaffer

    Its kind of a microcosm of Price’s tenure. “A day late and a dollar short.” It interesting that the umpire said after the game that “he looked over at Price and he was not trying to get his attention.” That says 2 things: 1) the umpire knew it was a bad call and he looked over to see if it would be objected to by Price 2) Price had no idea what was going on until well after the play was over.

    • Big56dog

      I have heard 28 to 32 seconds, how is this not reasonable, I did not see it live so I do not know if that is accurate but it is ridiculous that a manager is expected to see something MLB could not see when there job is to be right on top of that play. The entire crew should be suspended for being inept. How is less than a minute not considered immediate, the Cards were still throwing water on each other on the infield

    • jazzmanbbfan

      If the umpire knew it was a bad call, don’t they have the option to look at the play regardless of what the Reds do, to ensure they get it right? I’m asking as I don’t actually know.

      • lwblogger2

        Yep, an umpire review can happen pretty much at any time. Or at minimum, an umpire conference.

  4. Jay King

    That’s the most outrageous thing I have seen. Clearly the Umpires are at fault too. How could they not see the ball hit out of bounds. Honestly on a game ending play the manager should be able to say hey we are reviewing this and be given at least a min. to figure out if they are challenging.

    I ashamed of the umpires. It almost seemed like they booked it off the field. MLB you wanna fix things don’t add a pitching timer make your current rules more appropriate.

    Some of the things that Mansfield is proposing seem annoying to me. and will take away the fun of the game. If you go to a baseball game understand it could be 3 hours sitting there or so.

  5. Big56dog

    This is setting a bad precedent, any game ending play is going to be challenged. Possibly Carpenter missed a base, maybe a fan actually interfered with that ball, did Molina even touch first??, maybe he had too much pine tar on his bat, maybe even the ball hit a sign that is out of play that guys in the dugout are supposed to see while employees on the field who job it is to notice these things cannot- you just never know what mistakes they made so you might as well dissect it all since 28 seconds is too long to mull it over

    • Eddie

      Is there any harm to challenging at the end of every close game your lose?

      • Eddie

        Stupid ‘r’. I should have reviewed my typing.

      • greenmtred

        Your proposal is logical, but the harm I see is that baseball is an entertainment and is competing with other entertainments for its followers. The games are long, the rules are often baroque, and following every game-ending play with a time-consuming anti-climax is going to drive fans away. Maybe a central reviewing entity like the NHL’s is the answer, but I hope it isn’t often required.

      • ohiojimw

        Baseball already has the central reviewing HQ. A comment was made by the broadcasters during this series on one review which came back very quickly about that the guys in NYC must have already been looking at the play before the official challenge was transmitted to them.

  6. james garrett

    It obviously should have been reviewed regardless if Price challenges or not because it is not clear if the ball left the field of playLooking to see if Price will challenge doesn’t come in to the scenario.If the ball had been thrown into the dugout or it appears it may have been then you would review it to see if the runner stops at third or is given home is a similar example.Better put would be did the ball hit something beyond the fence and bounce back in to the field.Duvall did what he should have done and that is grab it and throw it and Carpenter did what he should have done and that was to keep on running.The umpires didn’t do what they should have done and that was review it which if it hadn’t been a game winning play they would have.Problem is just like all do they run off the field.Don’t need a rule change just enforce what you have.

  7. Carl Sayre

    Folks I know the umpire slammed the pooch but Price is an idiot here and there is no nice way to put it the game was over without a challenge if he had any doubt challenge it. I don’t like Price’s lack of managing so yes I am biased but if he tried to get them to look at it after 32 seconds that means he had a question the game is over challenge. I don’t like the rule (the 20 seconds) I thought replay was to get it right and it was obvious by “I was waiting on Price to challenge” at least that umpire knew it was a missed call. The fact remains he didn’t challenge in the allotted time by the rules and that is on him. I guess it shows 2 of the issues Price incompetence and apathy. He has mailed in all 3 seasons that he has managed, injuries crippled the team the first season but he didn’t try he would roll out the line up least likely to win. The incompetence he didn’t go to the top step to indicate he was going to challenge and then let the time expire after this was in a situation that he was watching it he should have beat the runner to the umpire! Rant over and I hope his tenure with the Reds is also!!!!!!!!!!!

    • jazzmanbbfan

      Wow Carl. Can you tell us how you really feel? I am not going to go on a rant but I disagree that Price is an idiot or incompetent based on this, or a lot of other things he gets blamed for. How has he mailed in all 3 seasons that he’s managed? Do you really think he was putting out lineups that he hoped would lose? That’s a guarantee for not retaining his job unless he was just following the orders of the GM. He will probably be fired either this winter nor next. It will likely make little difference in the team’s performance. I just don’t think managers have that much impact.

  8. big5ed

    Any guesses as to what the ruling would have been if the same thing had happened to the Yankees or Red Sox or Cubs?

    • greenmtred

      Same umps, same ruling, probably.

    • ohiojimw

      Question is what would have happened if two of those teams would have been playing each other 😉

    • Chuck Schick

      The Cubs haven’t won the World Series in 108 years. The Yankees have spent nearly twice as much as anyone else over the past 15 years and have won 1 World Series. The Red Sox have finished last 3 of the past 5 years.

      Obviously, those 3 teams get all the breaks. A terrible call was made at a terrible time. We can stop looking at the Grassy Knoll.

      • greenmtred

        But the grassy knoll is such an inviting distraction.

  9. Scott Carter

    I think managers can have a big impact on a team with talent. This team is not one of those, Lou Pinella nor Sparky would win with this team. You can not have a roster made up used up retreads like Ohlendorf, Simon and Wood (although Wood has been serviceable, he is not an end of game pitcher, he should be their long reliever after the game has already out of control, to maybe hold the score down), and never beens and pitchers who should still be at AAA. Blame Price all you want, he has made some baffling moves over three years, but in a lot of careers that is called a learning curve. Instead Blame the Front Office who filled up the roster with these players, who allowed it to get to this point in the first place with bad trades and trading deadline gaffs (see Marlon Byrd one year too late)
    As to the call, rule or not, this should not have been a hard call for the 3’rd base umpire. Where was he? Did he run out awards left to get the best view? Was he even watching the play? And How about the first base ump? After Molina touched first he had no responsibility. Did he even look? And How about the plate umpire. He should of had a straight on look at the play. Again blame Price if you want but IMO this is entirely on umpiring crew and MLB. I just hope it does not keep Johnny C. out of the playoffs.

    • jazzmanbbfan

      I agree, this is on the umpiring crew. And good managers can have some impact in my opinion but not as much as many would like to believe. Sparky lost over 100 games with a terrible Tigers team and had several other sub-.500 seasons managing Detroit.

  10. james garrett

    Manager’s really don’t have that much impact but I love guys who manage for today and worry about tomorrow when it comes.Dusty/Price do that and maybe everybody else does as well but as a fan I expect the manager to try and win every game.I will just use last night as an example.Bringing Wood back for another inning has proven to be not a good idea.More then once before he has done that with him and it backfired.Of course we could set here and asked who should he have brought in and analyze that to death but there has to be somebody that needs an audition in a high leverage situation or maybe Lorenzen pitches an inning.He already got lucky with Diaz for an inning and then Wood for an inning so why push your luck.We already know about Wood and to be honest as soon as he walked Carpenter I felt it was over.

  11. DEN

    Sorry not seeing the big deal here. This game is played by and umpired by humans, who make mistakes. It was a bad call by the umpires, nothing more, nothing less happens all the time in all sports.

  12. Tom Mitsoff

    I received an alert from my MLB At-Bat app that Bryan Price will return as manager next year, and all coaches have been offered contracts to stay on, FYI.

    • WVRedlegs

      No problems with this. Fair for both sides.
      Cue the crybabies.

      • jazzmanbbfan

        I also have no problem with it.