Final R H E
Cincinnati Reds (55-77) 7 12 0
Chicago Cubs (75-57) 4 6 1
W: Hoover (7-0) L: Rondon (5-3) S: Chapman (27)
FanGraphs Win Probability | Box Score

The Good
–Joey Votto hit a three-run blast in the top of the ninth inning — his 27th of the season — to break a JJ Hoover-induced tie game, and give the Reds their winning margin. On the day, Votto was 2-5, with two runs scored and 3 RBI…and his OBP actually went down. I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a Reds hitter like Joey Votto.

–Another very strong start by Raisel Iglesias: 7 innings, 2 runs allowed on 3 hits, with 10 strikeouts. It’s the third straight game of 10+ strikeouts for Iglesias; he’s the first rookie in Reds history to accomplish that feat.

Also, Iglesias tripled in the fifth inning, scoring Eugenio Suarez (who had doubled earlier in the inning). Is there anything Iglesias can’t do?

–Suarez was 2-3 with a double, a walk, a run scored and an RBI. He also made a nice defensive play behind second base.

–Brandon Phillips went 3-5 at the plate.

The Bad
–Iglesias handed the ball off to JJ Hoover with the Reds holding a 4-2 eighth inning lead. Twenty-six pitches and a Kris Bryan home run later, the game was tied 4-4.

And yet Hoover gets the win to go to 7-0 on the season. Kill the win!

Not-So-Random Thoughts
–That game was fun, then not fun, then fun again. Baseball!

–If I get to write the recap for every single Raisel Iglesias start, I’ll be a very happy man indeed.

–I simply do not have enough superlatives in my vocabulary to describe Joey Votto. He’s just amazing. The Reds should sign him to a contract extension through his age-50 season.

–You heard it here first: Raisel Iglesias will be the ace of the Reds staff next season.

–That’s three straight starts with 10+ strikeouts for Iglesias, as noted above. He’s pitched seven innings in each of his last four starts, and allowed four hits or less in each of them. Yet he’s 0-2 over that stretch. Kill the win!

–Tweets:

After his go-ahead HR, Joey Votto is hitting .399 with a .576 OBP since the All-Star Break, both of which are best in MLB.

— ESPN Stats & Info (@ESPNStatsInfo) September 2, 2015

 

Today, Votto was 2 for 5 with a HR, and, lately, that’s only a kind of okay day for him.

— Jason Linden (@JasonLinden) September 2, 2015

 

JoeyMVP

— Steve Mancuso (@spmancuso) September 2, 2015

 

Iglesias 7 straight quality starts: 46.2 IN 23 H 12 ER 13 BB 55 K 2.34 ERA #Reds

— Lance McAlister (@LanceMcAlister) September 2, 2015

 

Raisel Iglesias: first #Reds pitcher with a triple and 10 K in a game since Dontrelle Willis 8/9/2011

— Christopher Kamka (@ckamka) September 2, 2015

 

Clutch Joey

— billy hamilton (@BillyHamilton) September 2, 2015

 

–The Reds are off tomorrow. The Brewers come into town for a three-game series this weekend.

138 Responses

  1. Kurt Frost

    At some point Votto has to hit himself into the MVP discussion, doesn’t he?

    • jdx19

      I think he’s in it, at the moment, for discerning voters.

      There is a problem, however. If the award goes to a non-playoff contender, it goes to Harper.

      If it goes to a playoff contender, it goes to McCutchen or Rizzo or someone like that who has been very good, but much worse than Harper, Votto, and Goldschmidt.

      I think Votto has to pass Harper in OBP/SLG or some combination of WAR and other things to have any shot at all. I put it at 3% right now.

  2. james garrett

    Never has and probably never will get the credit he deserves.All things considered this may be a better year then his MVP one.

  3. ohiojimw

    The thought that popped into my mind as Votto’s HR departed the friendly confines was, I’m glad we’ve got Joey for that. Now if Jocketty et al could just figure out who we got for the rest of things. And yes, based on his recent run it does look like we have Raisel to be the #1 for several years.

    • lwblogger2

      My worry and the worry of a lot of baseball folks smarter than me, as far as Rasiel is concerned, is his delivery and the mileage that may already be on his arm. I think he’s a higher injury risk than perhaps other pitchers. That said, it’s a bit of a crapshoot and when you think about it, all pitchers carry a fairly high injury risk.

      • ohiojimw

        I think to me he looks a lot like Pedro Bourbon (Sr) who was the walking definition of rubber armed; and also of course Arroyo who pitched a lot of innings and made it past age 35 before it caught up with him. But then Iglesias throws harder (faster) than either of them by a good measure.

        On the other hand his $27M contract over 7 years is guaranteed, so as long as he is willing, ride him as hard as he will ride for as long as he can go. If they get even 2 or 3 years out of him at a level approaching what he has done over the last 6 weeks, he will have been a bargain.

        With the changes coming in the official relationship between the US gov and Cuban gov, if records exist of his pitching experiences and injury history in Cuba, maybe the Reds will get access to them.

  4. DHud

    Granted he has pitched well all season, but the fact that Hoover gets the win for blowing Iglesias’ gym shows pitcher W-L records is a garbage stat. The rules of scoring it seriously need to be reevaluated

    • jdx19

      I don’t think the rules need to be reconsidered. I just think the stat should be completely eliminated.

      It never will be, so once all the old-timers die off, no one will give it any credence.

      • pinson343

        What discredits the “win” stat more than anything else is that, for a reliever who comes in with a lead (as the better ones generally do), the only way to get a win is to blow the lead. For a closer used strictly as a closer, every W represents a blown save. That’s just nuts.

    • Jay King

      I honestly feel the stat W or win needs to be redefined. Perhaps the pitcher who pitches the most innings for the team that wins the game gets the win. Another thing the pitcher has to go 6 innings minimum and give up 3 or less earned runs. I know there is quality start that fits most of this criteria but this is just some ideas to base the definition off of as a basis.

      • DHud

        I think with that you’d run into the accountability issue of not recording decisions due to no one being eligible. Intuitively, a teams combined W-L record should equal 162 games.

        Or does it have to? Another point to consider…

      • Ken Goldsberry

        Actually, for those situations where no single pitcher is eligible, I’d call them ‘Team Win’s.

      • docmike

        That’s just it. They should all be “team wins”.

      • Hotto4Votto

        They could use WPA to determine who gets the W. Whatever P had the most WPA would get the W. Or, as others have said we could scrap the W and start using ERA+, FIP, WHIP etc to judge a pitcher’s performance.

      • jdx19

        Very interesting idea. The only problem with that is it directly benefits the pitcher that comes into the game AFTER a guy who may have just loaded the bases or something. Also, due to the leverage aspect of WPA, if your offense is very good one game (say 7-0 in the 5th inning) there really aren’t any WPA shifts after that, unless someone gives up 7 runs.

        The problem with the W to begin with is that giving credit to 1 person for a “win” is just a falacious idea.

        I think instead of focusing on how to fix the win, the community should instead spend its time educating the masses on how to properly evaluate a pitcher, such as strikeouts, walks, limiting batted ball authority, and pitch efficiency.

    • Vicferrari

      I irrationally like the pitcher I am rooting for to get the W, I was really bummed that Iglesias did not for some reason and would prefer the Reds to lose at this point.

      Any body know if there is any correlation in starters getting a majority of the wins and team success. By my count 18 consecutive games without a starter win, any one have any idea on the MLB record?

      • pinson343

        It’s not irrational to root for a pitcher to get a W, because for one thing, it means a lot to the pitcher. And though it shouldn’t be used to evaluate a pitcher, in 2015 it still is.

      • lwblogger2

        This hits it exactly. Wins are important to starting pitchers and to their teammates. The stat is valued highly by players but shouldn’t really be used as an evaluation tool for pitchers.

      • VaRedsFan

        Pinson an LW are right on the money. The W is important to the starting pitcher, and W’s give a luke warm perception of quality starting pitchers.

        Reliever W’s rarely tell the whole story and are meaningless. So just ignore them. Wins don’t need to be eliminated as a stat just because relievers backdoor themselves with a few per year. Some relievers come in with the bases loaded and preserve the lead, so the starter gets the W when he might not if he continued.

      • docmike

        Wins are only important to starting pitchers because they will use it to compare themselves to other pitchers. If the “win” for pitchers was completely abolished, then no one would get upset because they would then use better stats for quantifying who pitched well and who didn’t.

      • preacherj

        The one I like most is Closer Wins and Losses….more often than not those just tell which half of the ninth inning they spewed on themselves.

      • jdx19

        Vic, I would assume there is certainly a positive correlation between starter Ws and team W’s. Beause, inherently, that means your team is in the lead more often later in the game. So, of course you win more games if you lead more games.

        There is still the issue of the W not telling you anything about the pitcher, however. You could be 26-2 and have a 4.8 ERA if you pitch for a good offensive team and get some luck.

  5. peter ponds

    Iglesias keeps giving us hope that a new Ace is in town. Very impressive performance. Suarez with another nice game. It’ll be nice to see guys like Weiss as bullpen options.

    The young ones will tell us how much time will have to endure losing.

    • Jay King

      I have to agree with Chad… From what I have seen of Raisel Iglesias I feel there is a really good chance he is our opening day starter. I Think the rotation will look like this assuming we don’t pick up some free agent. (would die if we signed Johnny Cueto back..even though that is only a dream) Anyway my rotation goes like this.

      Iglesias
      Bailey
      Desclafani
      Stephenson
      Lorenzen

      I just can’t make Bailey my #1 guy. I just don’t see him that way. Even if this is not the rotation the other guys that are fighting for the spots will make for a very interesting spring training in 2016.

      I pray Holmberg is not in the rotation. except as a fill in or for double headers.

      • Tom Reed

        In 2016 I would substitute Lamb for Bailey for the first couple months of the season.

      • Chad Dotson

        If Bailey is healthy, I think he’s the Opening Day starter. But Iglesias is likely to be the best starter in 2016, IMO.

      • jdx19

        If Baily did start opening day, I think his recovery timeline would have to be the fastest in history. Less than 12 months from surgery to real pitching? Seems agressive based on past precedent.

      • pinson343

        As of now (could change) I like Lamb more than Lorenzen. And without Bailey for the first half of 2016, there’s room for both.

      • lwblogger2

        I think Lamb is going to be a really nice #3 or #4 guy. I still think Lorenzen will wind up in the pen at some point. If the Reds are committed to seeing how he does as a starter though, they need to keep developing him that way. What I don’t want to see is them going all wishy-washy as far as their commitment to making him a starter. He needs to be given a real shot at starting before relegating him to the pen. In 2016, he should be in the MLB or AAA rotation.

      • ohiojimw

        “In 2016, he (Lorensen) should be in the MLB or AAA rotation.”
        ********************************************************************************
        Agreed but I can see the Reds trading Chapman then dithering around among Finnegan, Lorensen, and Cingrani (if he is healthy) as the replacement with one foot in and one out on all of them.

        And of course until such time as I am proven wrong by results on the field, I will continue to believe the Reds truly missed the boat on Lorensen by rushing him as a pitcher versus making a position guy out of him 🙂

  6. Theresa L

    I attribute Joey’s blazing second half solely to the fact that I wear my “Joey MVP Come on now” shirt from Redleg Nation while viewing every game. 🙂

  7. Tom Reed

    You got that right. Iglesias is the Red’s ace in the making.

  8. james garrett

    Iggy has got the stuff and seems to understand how to pitch.

    • pinson343

      He does know how to pitch. With that and all his arm angles, he’s like Bronson Arroyo but with a nasty, 95 mph heater with movement.

      • preacherj

        That sounds like a recipe for Cy Young consideration some day.

  9. Beavertucky

    When does Walt get credit for the Iglesias signing?

    • jessecuster44

      Nice job, Walt. Getting Iglesias, and trading for Suarez and Disco were excellent moves. Bravo.

      Signing Gregg and Marquis, and forcing Price to use them were not. In fact, those two signings killed the first 1.5 months of the season. So, no Bravo there. And we’re still looking for a high OBP outfielder that you were talking about last December.

      • I-71_Exile

        You are right about Gregg and Marquis, but those two trades and the Iglesias signing are looking really, really good right now. Gregg and Marquis were only part of the mix due to injuries and a spring training trip to fantasy island that is best forgotten.

        I think Walt severely underestimated the value that a high OBP outfielder would command in the open market.

      • pinson343

        Yes and note that the good moves above are trades and the bad ones are last-minute FA signings (Iglesias was neither – a long term signing, like Chapman).

        I don’t think that’s a coincidence. WJ views trades as the main route (other than home grown) to improving the Reds. He views free agents are cheap filler.
        His instincts there are bad. And Schu and Hannrahan weren’t even last minute or that cheap.

        My money is on getting a good return from the players picked up in the Cueto/Leake trades.

      • jessecuster44

        Then Walt needs to put some due diligence into trading for a high-OBP, cost-controlled bat. If he has to overpay (like he did for Latos) to do it, so be it.

      • ohiojimw

        It would be interesting to see the numbers of the % of guys who had middle of the road or better careers who make their last round up with the Reds versus the % with other MLB teams. Are the Reds really the king of dumpster diving versus the rest of MLB or does it just seem that way to us because the Reds are the team we follow most closely.

    • pinson343

      He’s gotten credit for Iglesias multiple times from me.

    • jdx19

      Whoever scouted Iglesias and convinced managment to sign him should get credit. Do you think Walt ever flew to the DR (I think?) to see Iglesias pitched after he defected?

  10. jessecuster44

    You know, Joey is paid for that.

    What a great win. What a great series win. Love taking it to the stupid Cubs, who Cubbed just enough. Enjoy these moments – you don’t know when you’ll get another one.

  11. vared

    You would hope that Price had a light build moment with Chapman going more than an inning Monday. Yet, when it was clear Hoover wasn’t at his best while he was digging a hole, Chapman wasn’t even warming up. Can someone explain that for me?

    • Vicferrari

      Chapman cannot pitch in every high level situation that comes up throughout the season. I seriously doubt one could expect him to pitch multiple innings in a 40 hour period.
      Despite what you may think he can handle, judging from their borderline superstitious use of him, management would never consider it. I personally would like him to try to pitch every 5th day or so 6 to 9 innings- just to see it not work so I would not have to wonder what might have been,

      • pinson343

        Absolutely. The Reds need someone other than Chapman who can hold a late lead, regardless of the manager. The 8th inning has been a nightmare for the Reds this year: so many leads lost, usually on HRs. First Gregg, then Simon, Hoover was good for a while but now 4 blown-lead HRs allowed since July 21.

      • ohiojimw

        I agree but I think you probably mean Diaz and not “Simon”.

        Hoover is back to leaving fastballs in the hitting zone and hanging breaking pitches in the same neighborhood.

        I thought the concept was OK yesterday versus Bryant but the pitch needed to be where he had no chance of putting good wood on the ball versus trying to throw it for a strike (which is how it appeared).

        As miserable as this year has been, just having a reliable guy to work with Chapman to cover the last 2-3 innings would have made the difference between this (nearly) historically bad record and being legitimately mediocre (outer edge of WC race), even with all the injuries and the trading of Cueto and Leake.

      • jdx19

        Jim,

        I think the pitch itself was a fine pitch. From the replay I saw on the Cubs broadcast, it was a curveball with good movement that was on the inside corner. It likely would have been called a strike, so maybe it caught too much of the plate. But, sometimes even when you make your pitch a good hitter makes you pay. Just look at Joey’s 1st inning HR on Tuesday…it was 4-5 inches off the plate outside and got hit 440ft!

    • VaRedsFan

      Chapman was warming when the inning started.

  12. Jeff Morris

    I am surprised teams haven’t smarted up and either intentionally walk Votto, or pitch around him and let others beat you. Especially the way that Frazier and Bruce have been hitting the last month or two. Also, not sure why they don’t more Suarez up in the order, and move Bruce down, with the way Suarez is hitting. I keep wondering if Cozart was healthy all year long, would he hit as well as Suarez has this year? I know Cozart was really enjoying a great year at the plate, before getting hurt, but would he have kept it up and been consistent all year long??

    • pinson343

      Madden has intentionally walked him a number of times, even with runners on 1st and 2nd.

    • lwblogger2

      And Bruce has been in the 2-hole quite a bit with some mixed results in a small sample there. Suarez has hit in the 2-hole a lot this year. I think they dropped him down and moved Bruce up in the hopes that Bruce would get better pitches in front of Votto and Suarez would get more RBI ops farther down in the order.

  13. pinson343

    When Suarez was put in the number 2 slot, he went into his slump. I think that was just a coincidence, but combined with trying to get Bruce going by batting him in front of Votto, a (temporary ?) switch.

    • lwblogger2

      I should have read farther down before making my comment above.

      I need to talk baseball with you more. We seem to be on the same page an awful lot.

  14. sezwhom

    Only other hitter I’ve seen which is close to what Votto is doing now was Will Clark in 1989. You couldn’t get him out.

    • jdx19

      And also Ted Williams, Barry Bonds, and Babe Ruth, a number of times.

  15. pinson343

    The MLB Tonight trio (including Harold Reynolds) had an MVP discussion last night and dismissed Votto because “he only has 17 RBIs since the All Star break”.
    He has 28 actually, but of course that’s only the tip of the iceberg, as far as the idiocy goes. Tweeted them with some facts.

    • whodeythinkgonnabeatthemredlegs

      He got some love on Mike and Mike for his second half OBP and reaching base 31 times more than anyone else (did not know that, just insane), but no MVP talk

    • jdx19

      In my humble opinion, Harold Reynolds is least intelligent “analyst” I’ve had the displeasure of hearing speak.

      Sometimes I give the benefit of the doubt to players who were actually good when they played, but Harold gets nothing of the sort.

  16. pinson343

    Bryant hit one high in the air on a day with the wind blowing out, but nonetheless Hoover made a bad pitch. As a Cubs tv broadcaster said, “a sloppy curve”. A sloppy curve from a sloppy reliever and another blown lead by a sloppy bullpen. The bullpen has to be remade next year, and that mostly has to be done from within the organization.

    • jessecuster44

      Don’t forget Hoover was very, very good in the first half. He has a great deal of trouble with “bad pitches” when he is going wrong. You’d think a great pitching coach like Price could sort that out, ha ha.

      • pinson343

        Definitely. And I was an early believer that he was not the 2014 Hoover. When I said the bullpen has to be remade, I don’t even mean trade Hoover. But I don’t want him as closer or as the 8th inning guy either, ideally.

      • docmike

        Hoover is not as good as he was the first few months of 2015, when he had amazing batted-ball luck. And he’s not as bad as he was in 2014, when his luck was very poor.

        The true Hoover is somewhere in between. A solid, above-average reliever, but not the guy you build your bullpen around.

      • jessecuster44

        what’s he going to do, mop up? Unfortunately, you either fix this problem he has of streakily throwing loose pitches in bunches, get rid of him, or learn to live with his flaws. I think the Reds are going to go with option C.

    • jdx19

      I really didn’t think the pitch was that bad. It had good movement and was on the inside corner. That’s a hard pitch to hit out. Bryant just happens to be a very gifted hitter.

  17. pinson343

    MLB.com columnist Richard Justice: “There were even fools in the media who questioned whether Votto was really hurt.”

  18. pinson343

    Votto on Marty Brennaman’s “non-elite” comment, per John Fay:
    http://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/mlb/reds/2015/09/02/reds–cubs-sept-2/71602402/

    Some of his response: “At the time (he said it), I wasn’t. It was a fair statement by him. His job is to comment on baseball. … It doesn’t matter what he said. I was an All-Star. The elite players go to the All-Star Game. I wasn’t playing up to what I viewed as my level of play. He just made a comment on it. Big deal.”

    • Matt WI

      Joey Votto gets +10 classy points, gracefully letting Marty off the hook. Marty owes him now.

      • Playtowin

        It was classy of Votto regarding Marty. Given Marty’s enormous ego I do not expect “the Famer” to let up on his disdain for Joey.

      • Tom Reed

        Marty is, apparently, not an OBP type guy. He prefers hitters who are free swingers.

  19. Shchi Cossack

    The assault on NL pitching continues…

    Joey Votto now has a slash of .316/.457/.567 for a 1.025 OPS. Votto ranks in the NL:

    AVG 7th => .002 behind 6th & .015 behind 1st
    OBP 2nd => .003 behind 1st
    SLG 2nd => .060 behind 1st
    OPS 2nd => .061 behind 1st

    After a 1-4 performance with 3-SO, I braced myself for a regression by Votto in the NL hitting race, then the 9th inning happened and Votto made the Old Cossack pay for his doubts. If this continues for 2 more weeks…oh man!

    • WVRedlegs

      Votto is continuing his climb for his very first NL batting title. This is something to root for and to get his 5th OBP title in the last 6 years.

    • WVRedlegs

      Votto is a man’s man. He holds no ill will towards Marty. He has moved way, way past that comment. Now, if just the little boys who complain so much about the Brennemanns could just emulate their hero Votto, but we see where the maturity lies.

      • Matt WI

        Fair comment, WV, about moving on. Should we make anything of the fact that it took someone until September for someone to bring this up in Cincy media? It could have been cleared up a loooong time ago. Fay was probably worried about how it would go in his second inning spots.

      • CP

        The problem is, I still have to listen to Marty or Thom unless I have the other team’s feed. I try to avoid the the Brennemanns when I can, but it isn’t always possible. What usually ends up happening, is turning the game off. So yeah, I still get to complain about them. Hopefully, enough people stop listening and the Reds finally make Marty retire.

      • Matt WI

        I’m largely with you CP… I think we can specifically let go of “elite-gate,” but it doesn’t mean there isn’t a whole host of other frustrating issues that arise from their comments.

      • CP

        Yeah, I’m kind of tired of the whole elite thing. Marty is human and will make mistakes, it’s the negativity that he is infecting the Reds’ fan base with that gets on my nerves.

        Marty is basically the Psychomagnotheric Slime from Ghostbusters 2. When the Reds are playing well and there are tons of positive things going on around him, Marty can take those positive interactions and still be an amazing ambassador for the Reds. If you play Elvis, he’ll start to shake whatever vessel he is currently sitting in.

        But when things go bad for the Reds, Marty and his progeny store those negative feelings. Direct contact with the slime/Marty’s voice has the effect of filling a person with the negative emotions that he stores, creating a very whiny/angry fan base.

      • jdx19

        This is an internet forum designed to let fans vent and voice their opinions. It doesn’t make us immature if we like to discuss one of Marty’s most ill-time comments.

        Sure, some folks are tired of it. Just skip over those comments and QUIT COMMENTING ON THEM. Every time someone posts that they are tired of the “elite” talk, it just perpetuates the whole thing.

        Be mature. Ignore it.

  20. Shchi Cossack

    The race among the floundering teams for the 1st 2016 draft pick is much closer than the race in either league for the wild card playoff:

    MIL 57-75 … 5.0 games from last place in the NL
    CIN 55-77 … 3.0 games from last place in the NL
    MIA 55-79 … 2.0 games tied for last place in the NL
    COL 54-78 … 2.0 games from last place in the NL
    ATL 54-79 … 1.5 games from last place in the NL
    PHI 53-81 … 0.0 games tied for last place in NL

    Only 1 team (OAK 58-76) in the AL has more than 72 losses.

  21. WVRedlegs

    Rosters expanded on Tuesday, Cingrani is pitching in the Louisville bullpen, yet the Reds have no LH relievers in their bullpen other than Chapman. Finnegann could be pitching relief, instead of going through the motions in Louisville for one more start.
    Roster management has to be Walt Jocketty’s biggest weakness, among many weaknesses.

    • MrRed

      They want Finnegan to start and have said so from the beginning. What good does having him come up to sit in the BP and pitch relief innings in meaningless games do when he can continue to stretch out and learn how to pitch as a starter now? They’ll need him next year more than they need him this year.

      • Playtowin

        Agree they got Finnegan to start. I worry Cingrani is a bust

      • WVRedlegs

        Cingrani threw one inning in relief at Louisville last night. 3 K’s. He can’t be in the bullpen in Cincinnati?

      • MrRed

        Same theme with Cingrani. He’s just not going to make that much of a difference up with the big club right now. He’s developed a troubling history of injuries and really hasn’t figured out how to pitch up in the big leagues. He’ll be up here soon enough but the question still remains what will become of him in the club’s long term plans.

      • WVRedlegs

        Continue to stretch out??????????????
        Louisville only has 5 games left. One start for Finnegan.

      • MrRed

        Then let him have it. Is it really that important for him to be up here now? So they can lose 90 games vs. 91 games? This really shouldn’t be that controversial. There’s plenty of other things to complain about Walt.

    • IndyRedMan

      His point is that the Reds should’ve had Cingrani or some lefty from somewhere? Every team has a situational lefty on their roster….its as simple as that. Especially on Sept 1st as well? We still would’ve swept if Sammy would’ve kept throwing Shoeless Joe Montero curveballs.

      • MrRed

        I was directly addressing the comment about Finnegan and I think it’s a point that should be made. About the Red’s BP in general, there really aren’t a lot of options at the MLB or AAA level right now. Who would you have? Cingrani has been bounced back and forth between starting and relieving which is really more of a reflection on his trials and tribulations than the organization’s.

        I know it’s frustrating watching the team lose this much but you have to accept that railing on this issue at this point in time is moot. They’ll have the opportunity to address the BP woes in the offseason and next year. A lot of the young arms they have accumulated will be finding roles there and it’s reasonable to think that they can improve that area of the team.

    • ohiojimw

      From what I’ve read and the numbers on BB Ref, KC had apparently used Finnegan as a reliever at the MLB level then sent him down to be “stretched” into a starter because of injuries and shortage of replacements (and that’s a bit of a head scratcher in itself when one considers the numbers Lamb was posting at AAA for them but I am not familiar with KC’s pitching depth chart).

      Since the Reds don’t have a LH reliever aside from Chapman, it seems to me it would have made more sense for them to use Finnegan as a leftie out of the MLB pen and then sent him home for the winter with instructions to prep as a potential starter in 2016.

    • docmike

      I would rather have Finnegan stay down in Louisville for one more start, than to come up and sit in the Reds’ pen for those five days.

      Why? Because I’m looking beyond the 2015 season, which is long gone. While Finnegan is in Louisville those 5 days, it really doesn’t matter if the Reds go 5-0 or 0-5. Actually, it is probably better if they do go 0-5 (better draft pick).

      But the Reds braintrust traded for Finnegan with designs on using him as a starter in future seasons. The best way to prepare him for that is to let him start in AAA ball, as many times as he can. If that temporarily hurts the big club, so be it.

      That said, I fully expect he will be called up after Louisville’s season ends. But I believe (hope?) that he will slide right into the Reds’ rotation in place of either Disco or Iggy, as they hit their innings limits.

      • WVRedlegs

        This is the reward for being bad in MLB, is that you get 30 days (September) extra time to get ready for next year. It is an extra spring training to see what you have in players. The contending teams are fighting, clawing and scratching it out trying to get to the playoffs. Being eliminated early, meaningful baseball in September can have a different meaning if your team prepares correctly for it. Kind of, sort of like college football and the bowl teams having extra practices.
        With Finnegan and Cingrani, there was no worries about # of options they have or starting service time clocks.
        Maybe your right, having them in Louisville an extra week or so to work out with and sit on the bench with Holmberg, Axelrod, Smith and others beats the heck out of working out with DeSclafani, Iglesias, Lamb, Lorenzen, Chapman, and Hoover and sitting in the dugout with Bailey and Mesoraco and picking their brains.

    • jessecuster44

      If the Reds are trying to get the #1 pick, then Cingrani and Finnegan ought to be in Louisville, no? Maybe Walt is crazy like a fox. (can’t keep a straight face on that one)

  22. Shchi Cossack

    I really like the approach Frazier has in attempting to lay down a bunt when he is struggling. He is a good bunter and was successful in his prior 2 attempts. With the 3B playing back and as fast as Frazier can run, a good bunt works for a hit as well as a line drive. With that said, Frazier’s bunt attempt yesterday was NOT a sacrifice. Frazier was bunting for another hit and he caught everyone on the field and in the dugouts by surprise. He just didn’t get it down the line and make the 3B field the ball rather than the pitcher. If the pitcher doesn’t field that bunt, it’s probably a hit. Scoring it as a sacrifice was simply a routine, automatic decision by the scorer or maybe a gift to Thom B. because he went on and on through the remainder of the game about what a great decision Frazier made to give up an out on the sacrifice bunt in order to move the runners up a base. Chris even politely tried to point out to Thom B. that Frazier was probably trying to bunt for a hit and not trying to lay down a sacrifice bunt, but Thom B. was having none of that nonsense and refused to even acknowledge Chris’ comment, while Thom B. was preaching from his bloody pulpit, over and over and over…

    • Playtowin

      Good points. Thanks for pointing this out. Thom is clueless. Welsh does try his best to bring Thom back to Earth.

      • ohiojimw

        I’ve often wondered how TB could have been brought up in the business and come off as so clueless. His dad has never shied from being controversial; and, he has slipped in competence as he has aged. However in his prime he was certainly never clueless as TB sounds.

    • ohiojimw

      Frazier’s actions of late have convinced me his heart is in the right place and his head understands just how out of whack he is at the plate.

      This is the second time (at least) in the last several weeks he has done table setting by trying to take what was there to take. The other time he he reached and and I think it was BP in 4 hole who got the big hit behind him.

      Looking forward I think Frazier whether with the Reds or someone else needs to rethink his approach at the plate to find a way of not being such Jekyll and Hyde guy. His performance cycles seem even more pronounced and severe than JBruce’s. One thing for sure, I don’t think the Reds can afford to have the both of them in the line up as the rebuild progresses. If they do Votto may walk 175 times in a future season.

    • IndyRedMan

      It was a good play by Frazier! He’s been scuffling and could’ve easily got a bunt single out of it and it still produced a run by advancing the runners. I can’t remember which game it was previously in this series but we had 1st/2nd with nobody out and BP flew out when I wanted him to do the same thing Frazier did yesterday. You get out of the double play and you make the next hitter much much better w/the infield in!

  23. james garrett

    I am sure Todd was bunting for a hit and the way it turns out it got the Reds a run but only because the infield wasn’t all the way in when Pena bounced out.I think they may have been half way in but Thom going on and on about it is just ridiculous.

  24. PacoRocko

    Reds are only 30.5 back and only 20 out of the Wild Card. Now’s our time to make a run!

    Woot!

  25. VaRedsFan

    Sarcasm disclaimer…
    If Votto leads the league in OBP, the Reds are in big trouble.

    • docmike

      The thing is, if Votto leads the league in OBP, it very well could indicate the Reds are in big trouble (though no fault of Votto).

      If the rest of the hitters like Frazier and Bruce are scuffling, then Votto is going to see a steady diet of crap. Votto isn’t going to give in and swing at the pitcher’s crap, so he is going to walk a ton. Pitchers would rather walk Votto and dare someone else to beat them.

      When the rest of the lineup implodes, Votto’s OBP will rise, although if he never gets any pitches to drive his SLG may drop. Which is why it’s vitally important that Votto have some protection in the lineup.

    • jdx19

      Oh, I can see it now… next year Marty will say “See, I told you guys! Votto led the league in OBP and the Reds were terrible! If he would have driven in 180 runs, we’d be OK!”

  26. Jeremy Conley

    It still kills me how many people saw Iglesias pitch early on in the season and were convinced he could only be a reliever. I truly don’t know what they were looking at, but I wish they were scouts for other NL teams. Doc from the Enquirer especially. I wish the Cardinals would give him a front office job, I’d feel a lot better about our chances in 2016.

    All you needed was to have seen good pitchers pitch and bad pitchers pitch. Iglesias has dominant stuff because he’s got great movement, decent velocity, and can change speeds very effectively. Yes in his first few starts he obviously got tired, but the kid had barely pitched in 2 years and was starting MLB games. C’mon now.

    Compare the way his pitches look to someone like Lorenzen or Cingrani. I think both of those guys can be good pitchers (probably in relief), but it’s pretty easy to see why it’s easier to hit them than Iglesias.

  27. jim t

    mark my words on this. Lorenzen will be one of the better starters on the team Kid was a very fast mover through the system and he was a dual threat in college. he is just scratching the surrface of what he can be. Experience will only make him better.His arm is very good.

    • Jeremy Conley

      I’ll hold you to that, I don’t see him sticking as a starter, but I’ll be happy to eat my words.

    • JB WV

      Agree 100%. He wasn’t supposed to be up this early but circumstances took over. He’s still raw, but his stuff is electric. A little more seasoning. It’s exciting watching these young guys pitch, except for Holmberg.

    • Indy Red Man

      +1000

      Raisel will probably end up the better starter due to his unique delivery but he’s been pitching YEARS longer than Lorenzen….probably 5 years atleast? Give Lorenzen a chance to learn!

    • jdx19

      I certainly hope you’re right, but there’s really nothing he’s shown us to suggest he’ll be a good starter. He has poor command and the movement on his pitches is probably average. He does have decent velocity, however.

      Dual threat in college has absolutely nothign to do with his future success as a MLB starter.

    • citizen54

      I hope he succeeds as he seems like he is a hard worker but right now I have him way behind Lamb for the 5th spot. You need more than just velocity to be successful in the big leagues.

  28. jim t

    As far as Finnegan why bring him up to relieve. Every opoortunity to make him a starter should be taken advantage of. If we will have to fill other postions by trading off pitchers for hitting prospects, having him perform as a starter creates much more value then a relief pitcher. If he proves he can cut it them move him back to penn. Bringing him up now with anohter start in AAA would be a wasted opportunity.

  29. jim t

    and one last thing. Here is a reality check for some posting that the reds can contend next year. The reds will be vying to stay out of the cellar next year. Until we are able to land some Young controllable upgrades in LF and RF and Billy Hamilton OBP’s above 300 we will be competing for last place in our division. That is assuming that Suarezis the real deal,Mez is healthy and catching and the bull pen delivers.

    • Tom Reed

      We could land “…some young controllable upgrades…” in the off season. And as a fan for 70 plus years, I am never content to feel that the Reds will not contend in the coming season.

      • Jim t

        Tom love your enthusiasm but the Cubs,cards and pirates are loaded. This is a tough division. We will need a lot of things to go well to sneak into top three.

  30. ohiojimw

    His delivery, kind of herky jerky and with multiple release points probably scared a lot of folks off of seeing him as a starter. However, to date he is showing he can manager the release points and maintain consistency over the duration required of a starter.

  31. JB WV

    Even though it’s a crappy season for the team, I’m getting a lot of joy watching Joey play at full strength. It was torture watching him the last two years. I never thought he was right in 2013.
    Phillips said at the beginning of this year, in a wistful way, that 2012 was their year to win it. Sad but true. Just bad luck with Joey’s knee and Cueto’s injury in the first Giants game. Oh well.

  32. Indy Red Man

    Please tell me Walt wouldn’t consider this one!! Its either Freese or Colby Rasmus….thats it for your options….this ain’t Burger King!

    David Freese – 33 next April….currently at 6.4 mil. He’s having a bad year and really hasn’t liked the AL but if the price is right (ok our Price is never right) then maybe he could get back what he had in St. Louis for a few years. Lifetime .343 obp and has the perfect oppo swing for GABP. Granted its only 82 atbats but .329 and a Votto’ish OPS of 1.018 in GABP. You get Freese for 2 years at 10 mil or whatever….def doesn’t deserve a raise based off this season? That leaves money for a leadoff hitter in RF after they find someone to take Bruce for a bag of M&Ms or something….eat what you must to get it done!

    RF – Denard Span (.390 and .360 obp vs righties last 2 years) / DeJesus or Duvall vs lefties and let Billy leadoff?
    3B – Freese
    1B- Joey
    C – Mesoraco
    LF – Frazier
    SS – Suarez
    2B – BP
    pitcher
    CF – Billy

    That lineup would score alot of runs!!

    • WVRedlegs

      If you are going after an ex-Cardinal, wouldn’t a 31 year old Allen Craig be better in LF and keep Frazier at 3B, than signing Freese. Craig can play both corner OF spots and 1B. When healthy, he was an OBP machine. His foot is supposed to be healed now. He just got called up to Boston, so we shall see. He is owed $21M for next 2 seasons and ’18 option buyout.

      • Jim t

        WV I’m really looking to get younger in the field. I’m waiting on Winker and possibly Blandino to man 2nd base and that may be 2017. I have to give Hamilton another year as a regular before deciding if he is a sub. I don’t think you will see the Reds signing any big leaguers. They will be looking for young controllable players that they can develope along with their pitchers. Do no see them trying to catch lightening in a bottle with a couple of signings. That ship has sailed.

  33. Chuck Schick

    A lot of ideas have been thrown around on this thread and while many of them have merit or at least sound good in theory, it’s important to recognize the obstacles the Reds face next year and for the forseeable future.

    1. Attendance has been good this year. Much of that was driven by seasons tickets and the ability to buy ASG tickets. There is no question that season ticket sales will drop dramatically.
    2. No resolution on the cable deal. The longer this drags out the greater the likelihood that the long expected dramatic increase in revenue doesn’t occur.
    3. Taking the Pirates out of the mix for a moment, the Cardinals and Cubs have better MLB talent, better farm systems, superior management-ownership and significant financial advantages.

    The Reds will likely be spending less overall as their fixed cost ( Votto, Bailey) become a much greater percentage of payroll. They have no payroll flexibility and no margin for error. Given these obstacles, their only path to sustained success is an Astros like blow up…..and that only works if they become much better at talent procurement and more importantly development.