The Reds best pitcher of the last twenty years made his debut 491 miles northeast, in another country. Meanwhile, a young Reds pitcher who considered the former ace his mentor struggled to hold an early 3-1 lead. The result was the Reds three game winning streak snapped on a 5-4 loss, and brokenhearted Reds fans seeing their ace wearing blue.

Ivan De Jesus Jr. hit his fourth home run of the season in the second inning to give the Reds a 3-1 lead. The Reds added another run in the inning on a fielders choice, and lead 4-1.

The Pirates fought back, and tied the game in the 5th inning when Andrew McCutchen hit a solo home run off Michael Lorenzen. The Reds starter couldn’t make it out of the 6th inning after he loaded the bases on a walk. The Pirates would then get two of those runners to score off Jumbo Diaz, and took a 5-4 lead.

Marlon Byrd hit a solo home run in the bottom of the sixth to cut the deficit to a run. The Reds had a chance in the 9th inning. Phillips singled, Bourgeois bunted (lol), and then Votto walked for the fourth time in the game. Frazier hit a single to left, but Philips was thrown out by a mile at home plate. It was a pretty terrible decision to send the very-slow-running-Phillips-at-this-point-in-his-career by Steve Smith…..errrr I mean Jim Riggleman. Marlon Byrd then hit an absolute rocket, but Starling Marte made an incredible diving catch to end the game.

Final R H E
Cincinnati Reds (46-55) 4 10 0
Pittsburgh Pirates (60-42) 5 7 0
W: Locke (6-6) L: Lorenzen (3-6) S: Melancon (33)
FanGraphs Win Probability | Box Score | Game Thread

Untitled

Positives

Ivan De Jesus Jr. hit his 4th HR of the year, a 2-run shot in the second inning giving the Reds a 2-1 lead. De Jesus Jr. was filling in tonight for Eugino Suraez at SS. De Jesus Jr. has done a good job capitalizing on his playing time. He has hit .281/.354/.461 with a 127 wRC+. He was once a second round draft pick back in 2005. There is a chance the Reds could have something in De Jesus Jr., but there is an even better chance the guy with a career .764 minor league OPS is just having a nice run like Kris Negron had last season.

Marlon Byrd hit his 18th long ball of the season. Keep hitting them out big guy….maybe someone will overpay for you on the waiver-wire.

The “non-elite” Joey Votto extended his on-base streak to 21 games with four (!) walks. Joey makes walking look so easy. It’s not.

Hoover, Badenhop, and Mattheus all pitched a perfect inning of relief. That is pretty good.

Brandon Phillips had a two-hit night, continuing on his incredible night yesterday.

Negatives

Reds fans, tonight’s pitching performance is exactly what you should expect to see a lot in the near future. Michael Lorenzen looked good at times tonight (struck out six batters), but he had two really bad walks (he walked the pitcher and walked PH Travis Ishikawa and his .606 OPS to load the bases). Lorenzen’s final line on the night was: 5.2 IP, 6 H, 1 HR, 5 ER, 3 BB, 6 K.

Wins and losses are kind of a stupid thing to worry about with the Reds right now, but why Price didn’t pitch hit Bruce for Jason Bourgeois after Phillips leadoff single in the 9th is beyond me. Also, moving Votto out of the second spot is silly too.

Not so random thoughts……………

Johnny Cueto made his debut tonight for the Royals. Cueto allowed three runs over six innings against a really good Blue Jays lineup (6.0 IP, 7 H, 3 ER, 2 BB, 7 K). Cueto had a lot of fun early in the game, as he was mixing up his delivery a lot. The Royals broadcasters (yes, I was watching probably more of Cueto’s debut than the Reds game tonight…I’m sorry) were really enjoying watching their new ace pitch. The Royals bullpen blew the 6-3 lead Cueto had when he left the game. Sorry Johnny, some things never change.

I will try to reserve judgement on the Reds front office until after the winter meetings. Jocketty did trade Latos and Simon then, and got good returns. I have to admit though that I was disappointed in the Reds lack of aggressiveness at the deadline.

I fully believe the Reds should have blown up their roster, and I especially believe the Reds missed a major opportunity to trade Todd Frazier at the highest value he will ever be at. I hate the idea of a “reboot” instead of rebuilding as Walt Jocketty said. I am worried the Reds are turning into the Philadelphia Phillies, when they should have been following the plans laid by the Astros and Cubs.

Up Next:

Pirates at Reds
Saturday, 7:10
TV: Fox Sports Ohio
Raisel Iglesias (7 GS, 5.63 ERA, 3.62 FIP) vs Gerrit Cole (20 GS, 2.24 ERA, 2.72 FIP)

93 Responses

  1. Steve Mancuso

    The *successful* sacrifice bunt lowered the Reds chances of winning from 30% to 25%. Clearly shown on the above graph. So instead of sending Jay Bruce, one of the best hitters in the National League, up to face a RHP with no outs, the Reds sacrifice an out, lower their odds of winning and make it easier to walk Joey Votto. Can’t any of the Reds coaching staff read a win probability chart? It’s amazing how often they just give away opportunity to win.

    The defense was the difference in this game. Pirates made the plays and the Reds didn’t. When you can’t execute a pitchout because your catcher double clutches and then throws high to second base, there’s a problem that needs fixed.

    • jessecuster44

      Paragraph 1: This is exactly why Bryan Price should be elsewhere after this season.

      Paragraph 2: I imagine it’s easier to play well when you have something to play for. Reds have had trouble doing the little things for going on three seasons… How would you fix this?

      • Steve Schoenbaechler

        I do believe the Bryan Price has done some good with these guys. For instance, I love the running game. And, I love how he will step up to question calls. Baker would never question calls. And, only Baker would be able to hold Hamilton to less than 30 steals this season.

        Given that, I do see some strategy questions with Price now. I can only hope he’s learning from the mistakes. But, I’m not sure if he is.

      • jessecuster44

        Agree about the some good. I think replay has helped Price question calls. And no argument about the baserunning. Reds lead the league in SBs, which they need to do, given the offense.

        But Price was a pitching coach, and doesn’t seem to know how to manage a bullpen. And he said that he’d go less by the book, yet he’s still bunting quite often.

    • Evan armstrong

      Of all the other managers in MLB how many would have done it any differently?

      • jessecuster44

        Bochy, Francona, Mattingly, Girardi, Yost…

        Cut it out. Disagreeing just to disagree is tiresome. Inject some salient discourse into discussions please, or take the polyanna act elsewhere.

      • Evan armstrong

        The bunt is part of the game. Most managers in that same situation do the exact same thing. Objective is to get the tieing run in.

      • jdx19

        Just because “the bunt is part of the game” doesn’t mean it has to be.

      • Nick Doran

        The objective is to win the game. Bunting the runner over reduces your chances of winning the game. That has been proven to be true by analysing the thousands of times that has been done in real MLB throughout history. The teams who bunted in that exact same situation won less often than those that did not bunt. It is no longer a debate.

      • rhayex

        No offense (and I’m pretty sure that everyone knows what side I’m on in this argument), but what was the point of breaking out the thesaurus for that post? It comes across as condescending (at least to me). I understand you disagree with him, but he’s simply asking a question. I don’t get why people on both sides of the Price debate get so defensive about their positions.

        Again, I don’t mean any offense by this.

      • jessecuster44

        Sorry for the polysyllabic (BIG) words. I disagree that he’s just asking a question. I think he is purposefully being contrary, and a knee-jerk Price defender, which adds absolutely nothing to any discussion. Examine the history.

      • rhayex

        See, that right there. That right there is what I’m talking about. Why do you do that? Does it make you feel smarter? I can do it too! I’m in college getting a degree in computer science. There. Now I’ve thrown how intelligent I am out for everyone to see in this conversation. And you know what? It didn’t matter or help my point one little bit.

        I talk normally on sites like this because I (for the most part) respect the other posters on this site. I’m sure you have your disagreements with him, just as he does with you. You asked him for a response and he provided one.

        I’m not posting this to troll or to be rude to anyone. I just think this site would be a nicer place if everyone here had calm, coherent discussions with one another without resorting to insults or condescension. For God’s sake, we’re all Reds fans here. Let’s just get along.

      • jessecuster44

        Good grief. Polysyllabic was a joke. I’ll use simple words from now on.

        I’m all for intelligent discussion, but disagreeing just to disagree has no place here.

        And if you’ll notice, it’s a handful of apologists – people who bend over backwards to say that everything is fine – who start poking the hornets nest.

      • rhayex

        Fair enough. I apologize for not getting the joke. There is another user on this site who is consistently rude to anyone he doesn’t agree with, which has been irritating me. I’m sorry if I came across as a jerk; I just don’t want this site to devolve into a place where different opinions are ridiculed and insulted.

      • jessecuster44

        I would never insult someone based on their point of view as long as there is an argument behind it. I do think there are some people who are legitimately contrary just to be so, and I don’t like that.

      • rhayex

        Yeah, fair enough. I can see your point. Personally, I believe Price gets unfairly bashed on this site sometimes; however, it goes both ways. For every person who seems to have an irrational hatred of Price there’s another who defends his every move.

      • Evan armstrong

        If the numbers show its not very productive then why do so many managers on so many levels still do it? Are they all that out of touch or do they just view the game differently?

      • Bob Purkey

        Everybody is second guessing here. If they don’t bunt, and Bruce hits into a double play against the Pittsburgh shift, then everybody wants to know why he didn’t bunt him over. . . .

        I am into analytical information too, but “30% to 25%” is really not a huge statistical
        difference at that point in the game.

        I agree that Price has done some strange things, but IMHO, this is not one of them

      • Steve Mancuso

        It isn’t second-guessing if you’re shouting at your TV “bring up Bruce to pinch hit!” at the time, is it? I suspect a rather large number of Reds fans were doing that. Even George Grande mentioned it ahead of time. 5% is 1 of 20 games. And it’s entirely self-inflicted. It’s not like a player made an out trying to get a hit. It’s a team intentionally sacrificing a precious out for a base. There have been charts for decades that show that’s a bad risk. When you add in how it affects Joey Votto’s AB, it’s a terrible decision.

      • Vicferrari

        Which managers have a LHB on the bench the stature of Jay Bruce that can play the position? Maybe play for tie go with your 5th or 6th option out of the bullpen and use your rpize OF for the 10th if you can get there. It woul;d have been a dumb play play if it were tied but not getting Bruce in the game against a RHP is inexcuseabkle

      • Evan armstrong

        I think some here don’t believe that Bruce is that big of a weapon. I have to wonder given his contract if viewed as so great why more GM’s were not knocking down the Reds door offering up a bevy of young top prospects for him.

      • pinson343

        I definitely would have preferred seeing Bruce get a shot in the 9th instead of a bunt.

    • Nick Doran

      It will never cease to amaze me how some people just cannot understand a win probability chart. It makes it so easy to comprehend how a successful bunt actually hurts your chances of winning the game. Please, please, please give us a manager who can understand modern analytics. I thought Brian Price would be that guy but he has been a huge disappointment in that respect. It is embarrassing to support a team that simply does not know how the game works.

      • jessecuster44

        It would be great if the Reds would mandate that the next manager use analytics as a greater part of the decision making process, but the entire FO is such a dinosaur that they probably believe without a doubt that a sac bunt was the right call there.

        Here’s the kicker: The FO thinks that Votto ought to be driving in more runs, but the philosophy is to make decisions that take the bat right out of his hands. It’s ridiculous.

      • Evan armstrong

        Do we know how much Price and Walt use it now?

      • greenmtred

        Responding here to your post above, Jesse: I hope you weren’t serious about getting dumbing down your comments (or, at least, the language). I always enjoy them even when I disagree.

      • lwblogger2

        @Evan – Off the record, I’ve been told that the analytics department and the baseball operations side of the house aren’t on the same page. On the record, just the fact that the analytics department isn’t fully integrated with baseball operations tells me that the Reds, as an organization, doesn’t put much stock into analytics when it comes to baseball.

      • ohiojimw

        There is a difference between being able to read and understand the proposition a diagram or chart presents and accepting the validity of concepts used in preparing it.

        It happens I agree that bunting a man from 1st to 2nd to tie a game is a poor use of an out. At the same time I believe that there are so many possible variables and nuances in a baseball game that projecting how events early in a game influence win probability is like trying to predict the precise weather for a specific spot at a specific point in time from several hours in advance. And the best logic and supercomputers in the world still struggle to do that with reliability. Thus I find the win probability charts to be interesting but hardly something to bank my money on in real time,

      • I-71_Exile

        I agree with this completely. I still hate the bunt in that situation (and almost any situation frankly) and was glad that they didn’t use Bruce as a pinch hitter as I don’t think he would have delivered. The Pirates pitched to Votto. He earned his walk and even benefitted from a borderline ball call with two strikes.

        The bottom line is that the Reds players had some good ABs in the ninth, but were beaten by a poor send by the third base coach and an excellent defensive play. The Price haters jump on every little thing that goes wrong. It’s tiresome.

        I suspect they will do the same with the next guy and the guy after that.

      • lwblogger2

        I’m not always against a sac bunt but didn’t like it there because the walk to Votto becomes easy at that point. Of course they started out sort of pitching to him so maybe it would have been the same without 1B open. Glavine used to say that there’s always a base open if the bases aren’t full. You never had to give in to a hitter unless the sacks were full.

  2. jessecuster44

    Totally agree that the Reds FO wasn’t aggressive enough. What’s the point of being conservative? How has that approach worked recently?

    I don’t think the Reds should have traded Frazier(PR nightmare), but to keep Chappy (when they don’t use him properly), and keep Byrd?

    It is like the Reds are quite happy to be mediocre. Ugh. Go big or go home.

      • Nick Doran

        Is that really a fair characterization of what jessecuster44 was saying? Let’s try to have a constructive conversation.

      • Evan armstrong

        You have quality players under contract at a reasonable price and no decent offer to part with them at this point. This idea that the Reds FO is weak or something because they didn’t move them now is laughable. They moved the two players that they needed to move and kept others that can be moved at future dates and as Walt has shown get quality in return via trade.

      • Nick Doran

        You can share your opinion without insulting other people. You don’t need to say someone else’s opinion is laughable, that doesn’t make you sound any smarter. Let other people state their opinions, don’t restate them in distorted fashion for them.

      • Vicferrari

        I think Evan’s point is exactly what was asked and encourages a “constructive conversation”. Jesse seems to be advocating that trade had to be made, maybe he had something to add that supported why this should have gotten done. But Nick practically dismisses Evan by doing the exact opposite of what he proposes.

    • Ben

      It’s easy to be an aggressive buyer — you pick a target, make an offer, and tweak the offer as necessary. If the price is too high, you move elsewhere. There are usually multiple players out there who make your team better.

      It’s much tougher to be an aggressive seller, especially with guys you have under contract next season. You try to develop a market among several teams, but they are all shopping at other stores, too. The price for your player is set by the highest bidder, and if it’s not high enough what do you do? One option is to get less in return than you want, but there’s nothing wrong with waiting until the buyers and sellers have reshuffled. And if the Reds get close to equal value this offseason to what they were offered this week, they definitely did the right thing.

      • jessecuster44

        Great point. But Walt has had the entire season to do his research and make offers. Yet somehow, no dice. And in Byrd’s case, you don’t have the offseason to move him, so you might as well take something a little less. Maybe they are waiting for the waiver deadline, but I’m not holding out hope.

      • Evan armstrong

        Walt may have made offers and found the return not worthy at this point. As for Byrd what do you really think he would get, maybe a low level grade B or C prospect? Plus who is to say he won’t get moved still.

      • CommonSense

        Maybe Castellini didn’t want him to do. It was Castellini that did the dumb contracts for Bailey, Votto and Phillips. I know Steve likes to put everything at the feet of Walt, but the owner is to blame too.

      • jay johnson

        Byrd will be easy to move.Its highly unlikely that any team will pick up the balance of his 8+million $ contract.He will clear waivers and get you exactly the same low end prospect as you would have gotten before the deadline.

        The trade for Chapman to the dbacks that didnt happen is the puzzling one for me.If(and thats a big if)the deal was as published we were getting an amazing return for the most underused stud ever.Go onto multiple Arizona sites and all you see is whining and moaning about what they were giving up.Thats usually a pretty good indication.Would be interesting to hear why Walt turned them down.

      • jessecuster44

        Been thinking about this, and I think it’s Bob C. He can’t let Chappy go.

        Hope you are right about Byrd.

      • tct

        I think everybody here understands that. That’s why nobody was mad, and most of us were relieved, that the Reds didn’t trade Bruce. His market value didn’t match up with what we thought his actual value was. So keep him. Fine.

        But with Chapman, if any of the rumors are true, the Reds were getting good offers. There was also a rumor that the Reds were asking for team’s best 3 or 4 prospects. I mean, if you’re selling something you want to start a little high so you have room to come down. But that kind of package for a guy who has never pitched more than 80 innings in a season is crazy and makes people think you are not serious about moving him. Unless the Reds stretch him out to start in the next couple months, and we all know that ain’t happening, then I don’t think there’s anyway they get more for Chappie in the off season than they would have today.

      • Evan armstrong

        I think with Chapman you have a player whom while the owner gave permission to trade it was a wink wink approval. Like it or not the owner loves the electricity Chapman brings and isn’t willing to give that up without a huge bounty in return. That is why I think that unless that huge return is offered Bob will keep Chapman and come contract time will overpay to keep him.

    • RedAlert

      I agree with Jesse > mediocrity rules this organization – and at the root of it all is Big Bob

    • pinson343

      Nobody seemed to want Byrd. In any case he’s the kind of player who get traded in August.

      • jazzmanbbfan

        Byrd should clear waivers and can definitely still be traded in August. Hopefully that will happen.

    • Jay King

      I feel that Byrd could still be traded in August… Especially if he keeps hitting pretty well.

      By the way the comment in the Article about Phillips being slow that is not correct. He is running faster times supposedly than the past 3 seasons and he it likely to have a 20 + steal season at this point.

  3. Evan armstrong

    You blow it up and fans revolt in droves. Weather you want to admit it this is a business and fans, especially Reds fans are very fickle and loyal to specific players. Trade Frazier and fans will stop going and revolt. They will accept trades of players like Cueto, but want to feel the Reds are still trying. Cubs can do it because of their ballpark and Astros don’t have the history the Reds do.

    Fans want to believe and the Reds have some good talent and just need to get healthy and allow the young pitching to develop. Tonight’s game was fun and enjoyable to watch.

    • RedAlert

      Well, the fans sure haven’t stopped coming this year now have they ? – and it’s been as bad a product on the field and in the dugout as fans have seen in a while – Until Big Bob starts feeling it in the wallet , the word “urgency” will not mean a hill of beans to him

      • Evan armstrong

        I disagree, I have been to a number of games and enjoyed them all, driving over again from Indy for Saturday game and probably two more. Has the season been a bit depressing, sure but not unenjoyable. I go to see Frazier and Votto a chance to watch the young pitchers and maybe Chapman. I think fans invest themselves in players as much as the team if not more. Trade the HR derby winner or the Cuban rocket and such and I think fans stop coming…

      • Matthew Watkins

        There are some exciting components to this team which are entertaining to watch, but will they win us a series? Maybe with proper management….Sorry Price you gotta go:-(

    • pinson343

      I agree the Reds were in no position to bIow it up. The tv contract gets renewed in 2017.

      I spend a lot of time in Houston and for many years no one was in Minute Maid Park except crickets. The Astros had a new tv deal in place in 2015. Houston now has the 3rd largest population in the US and they knew there’d be big market money as soon as they start winning again, not so in Cincy.

      • jay johnson

        Not to nitpick but Houston is number 4,still behind Chicago,but gaining.

  4. James

    Seems to me that trading Bruce and Chapman weren’t urgent, given that they have time left on their contracts. Who knows what kinds of offers they received for them. It may be that they have a good idea of what a reasonable return looks like (see Cueto and Leake). For my part, trading Chapman makes sense. Bruce is harder. With him, you’ve got a 2-5 lineup core established, still pretty young (Votto, Frazier, Bruce, Mesoraco). You’ve got options at SS. You’re young at CF and getting younger and in LF. Youve got big arms in the system. The Cubs and Astros were dysfunctional and old when they decided to blow it up. Not seeing that from the Reds. I’m not sure how it will all work out, but I can see taking step back for a year, making decisions on Bruce and Frazier (& shouldn’t either Bruce or Frazier, but not both, get a big extension?). But they probably don’t need to consign themselves to the cellar.

    • Tito

      +1 no way the whole thing needed to be blown up; I enjoy rooting for the Reds and would love to be able to continue that in 2016-2018

    • pinson343

      +1 from me too. A lot of people here were unhappy when they thought Bruce was getting traded, and wanted to keep that 4 guy lineup core intact.

      The Reds set a level for what they wanted in return for Chapman and no one offered. I have no problem with that.

      • earmbrister

        + 3. I was hoping Chapman could be traded for a big bat, but I was sweating out the deadline in fear of losing Bruce (especially for Wheeler). The Reds needed to move Cueto and Leake, and they got a real nice haul in return.

        Yeah, it would have been nice to move Chapman, but who knows what was offered in return. I didn’t want pitching in return.

        The Cubs wanted to move Starlin Castro, but weren’t able to make a deal. There’s no point in giving a player away, and that includes Byrd.

  5. mtkal

    How did the Reds take a 4-1 lead (paragraph 2), then the Pirates took a 5-3 lead (paragraph 3)?

  6. pinson343

    Regardless of how one feels about sac bunts, the Reds let Melancin off the hook. The Reds have let closers in bad form off the hook all season (should have beaten awful Axford after Joey’s HR tied it, for example).

    Nick’s headline does capture the facts: 3 outs on a bunt, a low pct. base running risk, and a great catch (I’d say really good, not great, but no matter, a hard hit ball).

    I was disappointed that Bruce didn’t get a shot to do damage instead of putting Bourgeous up there, bunt or not bunt.

  7. Redleg 68

    Bryan Price is not the answer,. We need someone more aggressive steering the nation!

    • I-71_Exile

      Riggleman was aggressive in the ninth. 🙂

      • tdan4

        Aggressive, Yes. Smart? No way! Even a high school girls softball 3rd base coach knows the difference.

      • lwblogger2

        From that shallow in LF, a younger me would have probably nailed BP. You’re right about it being, um, aggressive…. Of course younger me wouldn’t have gotten to the ball as quickly as Marte did. Hmmm, maybe Riggleman accidentally mistook Marte for a slow-footed catcher playing LF?

    • jessecuster44

      Reds lead the league in SBs. I think that your sentiment is right, though.

  8. chuckstaley

    Do Walt and/or Bob, maybe Bob and/or Walt even realize what is going on around them in baseball 2015?? Things have all the way changed, Walt doesn’t have a clue and he’s the one who reports directly to Castellini (who is likely more clueless).

    Let’s face it… our GM is the guy who got fired from a job where he HAD been insanely successful (a frickin ring one year prior to canning) because he did not like a non-baseball guy like Luhnow moving up the food chain threatening his good ole MLB boy mentality. Sure Walt and Dusty were tight with their joined at the hip ideals , and yes even that duo couldn’t screw up that roster from 2010-2013 despite the….catcher bats 8th, Votto must bat 3rd, same lineup day in and out, bunt over any runner with less than 2 outs, closer pitches 9th inning solely in save situations, not to mention the pitch counts, pitching changes, sabermetric pitching analytics, umpire study, opponent situational knowledge, shifts, working positively for the shift, on and on and on…

    Fast forward to today and the most brilliant man in baseball is officially…yep…that guy, the bane of Walt’s existence…a Harvard AND Yale graduate engineer nerd nicknamed The Accountant alienating the Jockety types at every turn with their objectivity and their paper stats and their acronyms….baseball shouldn’t involve thinking right Walt? The leadoff guy singled? Don’t question! Bunt!

    Sadly there is no DeWitt in Cincy to use his noggin and make forward thinking moves. Bob got so angry during the CUE-TO playoff disaster that heads must roll …fire Dusty and promote his 1982 baseball minded lackey…of course he has all the answers he was just withholding them right? God forbid Walt would look to his former employer and think…now how did they get better without me…am I not as amazing as I think I am? Could I look to a staff member from a Hurdle or Vichy or Maddon team instead and try something different?

    I actually think we’re gonna play most of the rest of this season much like the last few nights and likely save Price’s job for years (vomit)…but when Bob turns red again in June 2017 because the prospects aren’t performing up to snuff and he has Walt fire Price to promote Riggleman…this process begins again. Our division is just a microcosm of how quickly things can be “corrected”, and these 3 aren’t going anywhere ANYtime soon…that success barometer which has created the 8 under .500 record and the fire sale potential mentality will be the death of us diehard Redlegs under another half decade or so of a Walt regime

    • vegastypo

      This reminded me of a rant I heard by Bob Ryan of the Boston Globe a few days ago. He was livid at the thought of using WAR to evaluate a player’s value, saying stuff like, “There is no WAR, it’s all made up. It’s nonsense.”

      • chuckstaley

        Sadly enough Walt Crotchety is (I think) a good bit younger than Ryan too…though they do remind me a little bit of each other, if only in that they both seem older than they are in actuality.

        And apparently neither would embrace a needed change and hire a Dave Martinez and turn a team around within 18 months.

  9. tct

    I don’t think the DeJesus/Negron comparison is fair to DeJesus. Nobody expects him to keep hitting like this, but Ivan was a far.better hitter in the minors, especially at the upper levels, than Negron was. With the average offensive production of shortstops as low as it is right now it’s kind of strange he never really got a shot before. He definitely had the numbers.

    • Nick Carrington

      True. DeJesus had much more promising numbers in the minor leagues. It’s not unreasonable to suggest he might be an effective part-time player and someone the Reds might want to keep around.

  10. GreatRedLegsFan

    Terrible decisions by Price, I can account for three in tonight’s game. Peña has became a liability both hitting and running. As for Lorenzen, it’s clear the kid cannot go longer than 5 innings for the time being. Another game given away.

    • Evan armstrong

      At this point wins and losses are meaningless. It’s time to allow players to grow and learn. As for “running” how is that on Price?

    • CommonSense

      To be fair Pena hit the ball on the nose his last two times up.

    • Redsfan48

      As for Lorenzen, he shouldn’t have been taken out with Polanco, who he’d struck out 2 times, up. Lorenzen should have had a line of 6 IP, 3 ER but the bullpen gave up 2 runs that counted for Lorenzen, including one on a wild pitch. Lorenzen has had multiple starts this year that have been much better than the stats ended up showing.

    • earmbrister

      just when I thought we might make the playoffs …

      Play the youngsters, including letting Lorenzen try to pitch out of jams and go deeper into games. Bruce deserved the day off; he doesn’t need to be pinch hitting in a meaningless game.

      • vegastypo

        Ha, there was a part of me that wanted him to be introduced, just hoping the fans would give him a big ovation for still being a Red. That had to be a rough morning/afternoon for Jay. (And then the whole trying-to-win-the-game thing, too.)

  11. Eric the Red

    The TV contract is still to be negotiated. Castellini would have to be nuts to have signed off on trading Frazier, Chapman, and Bruce. This is not the moment to alienate the fan base and have ratings tank.

    • jessecuster44

      This fan base used to be one of the best and most knowledgable in baseball. You wouldn’t alienate them if you stated a plan, and moved accordingly, no matter who you traded.

      But yes, fear may have played a big part here. That’s too bad.

  12. jnewm777

    Maybe they can get better return for Bruce and Chapman in the winter, but I’m not optimistic about this front office doing so. Based on snippets of media reports I’ve read from non-Cincinnati baseball writers part of me wonders if the reason that Chapman wasn’t traded was that the owner ordered Jocketty to make the asking price so high that in effect no one would pay it. We’ll never know, but as it stands now, next year the Reds will have a closer in his walk year that throws 103 miles an hour and will pitch 50 to 60 innings for a team that will be lucky to win 70 games. Not exactly a case study in organizational excellence.

    • jessecuster44

      It’s taken me a while to realize this, but Bob C is holding this franchise back.

  13. Carl Sayre

    I have seen the argument that they can get more for Chapman over the winter. I am not buying it, maybe more teams interested because of the optimism of a new season. I don’t think that is going to make up for a team that could have had him for this years run at post season and have him next season. You always want to use the emotion of a buyer when you sell, like a club that is close and the teams closest to you improved. The inclination to overspend is then, not after going home and talking it over. I love aggressive base running but there is a fine line between aggressive and ……….stupid, last night wasn’t even a fine line it was just plain nuts. I have thought all year defensively that Pena’ has done well, by well I mean he has played behind the plate as well as any catcher that under normal circumstances would only been back there 20 games. I see a lot of good baseball played by this team just not consistently or enough players playing well at one time.

  14. big5ed

    I don’t get the Phillies analogy. The Phillies had a series of big contracts with older hitters on the decline: Ryan Howard, Chase Utley and Jimmy Rollins, plus some heavy pitching contracts for older pitchers, like Roy Halladay and Cliff Lee, both of whom eventually fell of the cliff. Over the last 2-3 years, the Phils were paying tens of millions for these guys, with not much more than replacement-level production.

    The Reds, by contrast, have only two truly big contracts (Votto and Bailey), and both are in their primes, depending on how you look at Bailey. Of the Reds’ core of Votto, Frazier, Bruce and Mesoraco, only Votto is over 30, and he is going on all cylinders (except catching grounders), and the other 3 have team-friendly contracts. Phillips has a bad but not awful contract, andt it is for only two more years.

    The Reds didn’t need to blow it up, and they didn’t. The Phillies made a bunch of bad business decisions by giving extensions to players in their decline phase; the Reds have not..

    I would not resign Pena, although to his credit he hit a bullet with the bases loaded, but right at the pitcher.

  15. Eric the Red

    1) It was good that Price used Hoover in the 7th for the tougher part of the lineup, rather than having him pitch the 8th because that’s his “role”. I don’t know if he’d have done it like that if we had a lead, but I hope so.

    2) I’d definitely have batted Bruce instead of bunting. That said, it basically worked if not for the terrible decision to send BP. And even if all we did was get the tie, we’d have been going into extras in better shape pitching-wise than the Pirates.

    3) The most important AB in the game was actually Frazier’s, with the bases loaded early and a chance to break the game open. He didn’t get the job done. Baseball is hard.

    • Steve Mancuso

      The same thing about Price’s use of Hoover went through my mind, although it didn’t occur to me until Badenhop pitched the 8th. I would have liked to see someone ask Price if that’s why he used Hoover in the 7th.

      Bruce batting with no outs against a LHP is a much better option than giving up one of the three (precious) remaining outs for a base. Bruce has been one of the best hitters in the National League for the past 2.5 months.

      The decision to send BP from third is one of the few base-running issues of that kind this year. The ball got to Marte at the same time BP was rounding third. It was all right in front of the third base coach. I could understand the risk with two outs or if the runner was fast, but not in that situation.

      • Eric the Red

        I agree completely…even where you say sending Bruce up against a LHP would have been better than bunting. It’s even more of a no-brainer against the RHP Melancon 😉

  16. Indy Red Man

    Random thoughts from last night…although I missed everything after Lorenzen was pulled

    Kang is pretty good! 3 doubles and a good play defensively when he took a chopper in the hole and alertly got the 6-5 force out. Walt doesn’t usually look past the dumpster behind Busch Stadium for players but he should be looking in Asia or Mars for good talent.

    DeJesus is a nice little utility player. He has a little pop and will go the other way. He worked Burnett for a hard earned walk the other night. They need to play him in the outfield more just to get him used to it. I think Suarez’s bat might beat out Cozart for SS but whoever loses there can def help too off the bench. I wish they could’ve moved BP somehow?

    A little disappointed in my boy Lorenzen last night. He very rarely got above 93-94 mph and more importantly he doesn’t come inside nearly enough w/the fastball. He did get a hit and scored a run which we’ll miss w/Leake. That’s a big weapon. I wish they’d skip him for a while though…seems like he’s wearing down a little? He’s never pitched this much. Also don’t McCutcheon beat you. Old man Ramirez on deck….pitch around him. There is a reason Votto walks so much.

    Jumbo sucks too….its great that you can throw 99 at times but if you can’t get a big out then you’re useless in reality

    Typical Reds game though. We get 10 hits (2 hrs) and 6 walks while they get 7 hits (1 hr) and 4 walks. Byrd has been smoking the ball lately….why send BP there? He might be stealing bases lately but he still has avg. speed at best. I can’t seem to pull up the Alvarez RBI single but I know the other 4 runs were scored w/2 outs. We have to have the worst differential in 2 out runs scored to runs allowed! We have to be the worst or very very close. Like the other night in St. Louis….we get 1 from bases loaded and nobody out. They get 4 from bases loaded and 2 outs. Its ridiculous

  17. Tom Reed

    I think Chapman might be moved in the early off-season to a team that wants to stretch him out as a starter such as the Yankees. The return for Cueto and Leake is a good one and a couple of the pitchers could be in the starting rotation by opening day. I like the idea of rebuilding around the core of Votto, Frazier, Bruce and Mesoraco. And Adam Duvall, although not an OBP type guy, could be a candidate for left field or offense for the bench. It’s going to be interesting and I don’t think all is lost, even for 2016.

    • jessecuster44

      Do you think that other teams could convert Chappy into a starter? To me, this is a fascinating concept.

      It might be as easy as showing Chappy how much more money he could make. Then again, it might be near impossible, since Chappy has two pitches, and little sense of how to pitch.

      In any event, the Reds certainly don’t know how to use him.