Several reports (Jon Heyman, CBS first) have confirmed that Mike Leake has been traded to the San Francisco Giants. The Reds will receive two minor league players in return. No names yet.

Mike Leake gets his wish to pitch on the West Coast, at least for a few months. He’ll be playing for a team in contention for the postseason.

Update: One of the players the Reds will receive in return is RHP Keuri Mella.

I’ll be glad when the organization starts focusing on hitting prospects, but Mella does seem like an excellent prospect. 21 years old, pitching in high-A.

The second player is 1B/3B Adam Duvall, 26 years old, who is playing at AAA. Crazy power hitting, extremely low walk-rate. This guy is the throw-in for the trade so can’t get too choosy. But it would be nice to see the Reds pay more attention to on-base skills. But this guy looks more like organizational depth instead of potential major leaguer, anyhow.

Reds get utility player that plays more than one infield position.

126 Responses

      • jdx19

        True that he’s 21, but he’ll be 22 in 2 days!

      • redmountain

        He’s the best prospect they have. So what if he is 24 when he makes the majors?.

      • Michael E

        Actually better if they’re older, not worse. It means we get prime years on the cheap and then they’re 30 when they get to their first FA contract and we can walk away knowing they’re already heading downward (or sideways at best).

    • Redsfan48

      You almost have to think the Reds could trade some of their pitching depth for bats either this offseason or next year at the deadline if they are in contention. That’s 4 pitching prospects with upside, plus potentially Wheeler from the Mets if we get him for Bruce.

      • Michael E

        Nothing wrong with stockpiling upside pitching. It works for most of the past WS winners not named Yankees or Red Sox. The key is knowing which ones might be more risk than reward and moving them quickly while they’re still hot prospects.

      • Dewey Roberts

        We have Bruce under club control through 2017, if we want to take the club option. Bruce is just 28 and entering his best prime years of 28-32. He is a power hitter who has done a lot of good things as a Red. He looks to have turned a corner by raising his BA almost 100 points since May. With Votto, Frazier, Bruce, and Mesoraco, the Reds have the power of a championship type club. What they need is a few .300 hitters to set the tables. Trading Bruce will turn out like trading Frank Robinson and Paul O’Neill. The Reds will regret it for a LONG, LONG time and will be left holding an empty bag. As for me, I don’t want a pitcher coming off Tommy John surgery in exchange for Jay Bruce. We already have one of our projected starters doing the same- Bailey. We don’t need another one. What we need are more bats- not fewer!

    • Redsfan48

      When I heard the Giants rumored for Leake I was hoping for Susac. But thinking about it a little more, Susac would be blocked by Mesoraco so he would just be a backup and we already have Barnhart.

  1. rhayex

    Woah. He was the Giants first of second best prospect. Hopefully we can get one of their high upside short stops as teh second player.

    • redmountain

      Check Beede’s stats-he is not doing very well

  2. Brian

    saying duvall is the other 26 year old 1b/3b, not impressed. Mella could be a good addition though. I think the offseason could get really intersting given the amount of young arms the reds now control.

  3. Hotto4Votto

    yay more pitching. and the anti SMB.

    • Michael E

      We need hitting, but pitching is still the key to winning in MLB. You have three very good SPs and you are all but guaranteed to be in the playoffs. If you have three very good hitters, you aren’t guaranteed of anything.

  4. RedAlert

    Need some sticks Uncle Walt – !!! If you goona trade anybody else , PLEASE GET SOME OFFENSE IN RETURN !!! – enough hoarding all the arms – getting some nice pitching prospects , but need some bats – hop to it man !!!

    • Michael E

      unfortunately teams don’t seem willing (for good reason), but I remember the Reds of my entire lifetime, and they were only good when they had good pitching. When they had good hitting and below average pitching, they sucked, year after year. I am not going to bash getting high upside pitchers, no matter HOW many we have.

      check the Mets this year, their hitting is bad, but the future is very, very bright with a potential all-time great rotation (doubt it comes through that way, but should be a top 3 MLB rotation for several years). I would love to see my Reds with a top 5 MLB rotation starting in 2017 and runs for 4 or 5 years.

  5. Brady

    It’s a solid haul because Mella seems like a good prospect. Duvall’s talent will probably be wasted on the bench, but he definitely has some power.

    More importantly, we are stacking the minors with pitching and that always helps.

    If Bruce and Chapman are moved, I’d expect some bats to come back. Arizona has some solid prospects and if they end up with Wheeler+ for Bruce, I couldn’t complain too much.

    • tct

      The Reds could really use a corner guy with a big bat.off the bench, though. I think it’s really important to keep Votto fresh in the years to come, as he just looks so much better after getting a day off. Having an actual first baseman who can hit to back up Votto is something they haven’t had since they traded Yonder. He’s apparently not that great at third, but maybe he could spell Frazier for 10-15 games per year without doing too much damage.

      I had heard that the Giants had tried him in left. I say trade Byrd and throw Duvall out there and see what happens.

      • TC

        I agree. I don’t like his whiff rate, but a hitter you have to respect would be nice. Give Joey a day off a day a week, and Todd a day off every other week and now we have something. Don’t mind having a IFUT with power.

  6. mtkal

    Seems like what Grant said about Duvall wouldn’t be bad, having a utility guy on the bench that can hit PH home runs. I mean for a throw in.
    Mella was listed as their #1 prospect by MLB. (FWIW).

  7. hof13

    I’m sorry but I’m tired of the Reds getting pitching prospects all the time. Color me not that impressed.

      • vegastypo

        Agreed. And I believe that if the Reds ever have any money to sign a free agent, they’re more likely to lure a hitter to GABP than a pitcher.

      • Jim t

        Smartest thing posted on board in awhile. Your not getting FA pitchers to sign here. Hitters are another matter. Position players love playing here. Plus upgrading your talent pool is never a bad thing.

      • Ncmountie1

        But what FA hitters are signing here? Or is it just that we haven’t gone after any?

      • Hotto4Votto

        Except who has Walt ever signed as a FA that has panned out? We got lucky on a one year Ludwick reclamation project. Who else?

      • Hotto4Votto

        The Astros just traded Phillips and Santana, two top hitting prospects. Just got to make the right deals. The Giants have three SS’s in their top prospects, should have held out for one. We don’t need any more pitchers. If we don’t get a big time hitting prospect back for Chapman or Bruce, Walt has failed this team

      • docmike

        It might be because the Astros were trading for a hitter, so they were able to get hitters back in the deal. Since we have bee trading pitchers, we’ve been getting pitchers back. Looks like David Price brought back 3 pitchers just like Cueto.

        Now, if we trade Bruce for another pitcher…

      • Hotto4Votto

        Which is exactly what they’re doing. The Astros also sent Fiers in that deal. I don’t know why Walt wouldn’t send Leake/Bruce to Houston for that deal. In fact, I’d say Leake/Bruce is better than Fiers/Gomez.

      • redmountain

        Dont need shortstops-Blandino, Daal-not to mention Cozart, Suarez, and DeJesus. You could even say Negron. OF is the spot to be making deals. Pitching that develops is valuable as trading chips. Starters that have one or two pitches can become relievers. Sorry the Reds could not get Phillips from Astros.

      • Hotto4Votto

        Blandino isn’t even playing SS recently in Adv.-A and didn’t in college. There is a reason no one expects him to stick at SS. He doesn’t have the range. Blandino, if he can hit for enough power may be Frazier’s replacement. 3B was his college position. If not, then he replaces Phillips. Daal has zero power and poor on-base skills. He’s a back up at best.

        Cozart has two years left of arb. Part of next year he will still be recovering. So other than Suarez the Reds have Blake Trahan in Rk ball as legit SS options.

  8. Jake

    I’ve heard a rumor Bruce going to the Mets for Wheeler, anybody else hear that?

      • TC

        Wheeler is not enough. But of course Mets fans think the world ends at the NJ line. They say they would be POd at the trade if it’s straight up. Something would have to come with Bruce. Whatever man.

        Does Fangraphs.com work in NYC?

      • lwblogger2

        Wheeler is expected back in June/July next year, coming off Tommy John surgery. I love the guy as a pitcher but who knows how he’ll recover? Recovery rate is very good for UCL replacement (TJ Surgery) but it isn’t a given (about 85%) and some pitchers take a couple years to regain form at that. Not worth Bruce straight up if you ask me.

      • Hotto4Votto

        Better get a big time hitter or there is absolutely no reason to trade Bruce, in fact it would be downright dumb to trade him for more pitching.

      • Hotto4Votto

        No, Wheeler is absolutely not enough. If the Mets think he is, then walk away. We need a top hitter coming back. Otherwise no need to trade Bruce. We have him for two plus years still.

    • Brian

      rosenthal said they worked through the night on a potential trade and many people expect a trade of bruce to the mets to get done.

      • Carl Sayre

        Could it be working through the night the Redlegs are trying to involve a third partner to send Wheeler to? The complexity of the deal that sent Latos to the Dodgers took 3 days after the cat was let out of the bag. I doubt the Bruce trade is 3 teams and 13 players but it could be Wheeler is a chip the Reds need for someone else.I am like others on here that are frustrated with the lack of hitters in these trades but we should not forget it takes a partner to trade.

  9. Jeff Morris

    Lets go Reds, its good to get Pitching, but you really need, 1. A Bat or Bats 2. On Base Percentage Guy or Guys 3. Guy or Guys with some power that don’t strike out a lot. Remember you rank last or next to last in the whole MLB in Hitting with Runners in Scoring Position.

    • lwblogger2

      Byrd, unless his vesting option kicks in (at $8-million), is not going to be here next year. It’s probably best to move him if you can. Bruce on the other hand, I’d like to keep unless management wants to tell us fans that they are building for 2018.

      • Carl Sayre

        I think we should hope or pray whatever works for you that Byrds option doesn’t kick in. I am surprised he isn’t already gone but it is probably hard to trade a player that will only have limited at bats. I don’t see any team allowing Byrd to get the AB’s he needs, 8 million is just too much for him.

      • lwblogger2

        Bryd would be a great get for a team in the hunt as a 4th OF and serious RH pop off the bench. That’s his value. Reds wouldn’t get much of a return because of the money owed this year and fear of the option vesting.

    • Michael E

      I don’t care what hot air is getting blown around the past few years…pitching STILL wins. Why? Because you can win with just three or four really good SPs. Not the same with hitting.

      I’d always take an above average rotation and below average hitting over above average hitting and below average rotation. ALWAYS. So keep stockpiling high upside arms (SP1/SP2 types). We can sign one good FA hitter to go with a couple of the prospects we have and have a decent scoring team.

      Pitching still wins. That’s why the Giants and Cardinals keep winning WS titles. Not like they’re scoring 10 runs every game.

    • Dewey Roberts

      Gregg, you and I think alike. Bruce is in the top 4 RF’s in my 54 years as a Red fan- Robinson, Griffey, Sr., O’Neill, and Bruce. If we trade him, we WILL regret it.

      • Michael E

        There is a difference Dewey. Those other players were consistent hitters. Bruce is not. See April, May and first half of June. Rinse and repeat. Also see (most likely) August and September this year when he repeats his April and May.

  10. chrisscharmen

    This is a strange week for Reds (and former Reds) pitchers. Traded TODAY were Bronson Arroyo (to the Dodgers from Braves), Mat Latos (to Dodgers), and Mike Leake (to Giants). Throw in Cueto earlier this week and Chapman rumors growing (to D-backs)…wow. Just wow.

    • User1022

      Too bad Homer is injured, or we could complete the package of having the entire 2012 rotation get traded in the same week.

      • doctor

        well you could say none of them are pitching for the Reds this year.

  11. Jay King

    If Chapman goes we better get like 1 or 2 on base guys or I’m going to scream… Ok Walt we have a plethora of potential starting pitchers now. How cool would it be if leake was signed as a free agent.. Thanks for your #1 prospect Giants!!!!

    • Gregg Lestina

      I like Leake alot, but it won’t happen. Too much money and too much pitching in the pipeline.

    • TC

      I don’t know about that. If he goes to the Diamondbacks they have a pitching prospect I would be VERY interested in named Wei-Chieh Huang.

  12. DHud

    “Hitting the ball is overrated.” – Walt Jocketty, 2015

    In all honesty though, any time you can pry an organization’s top prospect away from them, I’ll take it

      • earmbrister

        Per MLB Traderumors:

        Mella ranks first on MLB.com’s midseason list of Giants top prospects and second on Baseball America’s version of the same list.

      • Heith

        Hey I’m still in shock Ol Jocky has done this well. Hey San Francisco department stores giving you a heads up……keep close eye on T-shirts. If Leake comes in they might come up missing.
        All jokes aside I’m very pleased with the Reds additions so far….Bruce could be next. I like Bruce but he’s due for a 1-2 month slump anytime. If the Reds get Wheeler and Flores for him..Yeah i do it!

  13. Merkisaredsfan

    Does anyone know the amount of money we have saved by trading cueto and leaks away?

    • mtkal

      It’s the amount they will sign for in the off season that they avoided. It’ll be a ton, especially Cueto. Others can better estimate what that will be, but more than the Reds can afford and still properly pay everyone else too.

    • earmbrister

      As per Baseball Reference, Cueto and Leake are in the last year of their contracts, at $10 Mil and 9.78 Mil, respectively. Figure about 2/7 of those amounts.

      • Shchi Cossack

        Also saving the cost of signing a comp pick as opposed to receiving a prospect who has already been paid their signing bonus.

    • redmountain

      Somewhere around 20 million and Cueto will get more than that as a FA. Reds could save another 20 million by trading Bruce and Chapman and Byrd. Parra, Marshall, Schumacker, an Pena will all be FA after the year.
      That said, if Bruce is going to be traded to the Mets, then Backs? Looks like most of their top guys are pitchers, so ML players look like they are necessary. I do not see a good fit here. Maybe they could get Dansby Swanson…

  14. Nick in Toledo

    I understand people being upset about not getting hitting prospects, but as others have said that is just the state of the MLB. Hopefully the front office can turn a couple of these arms into a bat. The amount of (potential) MLB starting pitching in the system right now is as good as I remember in a long time. These assets can hopefully be turned into something from the offensive side.

    Also, it hasn’t been said much, but I really like the trades the front office has made in the last year (except Heisey). But they turned Simon and Latos for a MLB infielder and SP (potentially more). Cueto for three prospects, and Leake for a prospect and a bench player. The front office should be commended for these trades.

    Lastly, we have no idea what is being offered for other players. If the front office took a low ball offer people would be pissed. But they don’t take a BS offer and people are pissed. My point is, I think the last year has proven they are capable of making trades for MLB ready or near ready players, and they should be seen as such.

    • Hotto4Votto

      Yet, Phillips and Santana were traded last night from Houston. They’re out there to be had. Just got to make the right deals. How can we expect the front office to turn prospects into MLB hitters when we can’t turn established, and really good MLB pitchers into hitting prospects? That doesn’t make sense.

      Who’s the last hitter we traded for? Byrd. Is that the kind of return we want? No we didn’t want that last offseason.

      • Nick in Toledo

        The going rate for SP during the run up to the trade deadline has been young arms. Those two prospects were for an MLB OF. The Reds can’t change what the market is. So turning established arms into P prospects, when that is what the market calls for, allows for a potential return of position player prospects when the market changes, possibly as early as the offseason.

        Which goes back to my other point: We do not know what the Reds were offered or turned down. Would you rather have one bat returned for Cueto, or three good arms?

  15. Uglystrike

    Overall a nice haul for two rental players.

  16. Bob Purkey

    Heisey was DFA’d by the Dodgers this week, you can get him for nothing. He had multiple chances, and he didn’t produce when needed.

    • TC

      Bring him home. Always liked Heisey, but they need to update his height on his bio. According to it he should stand two inches taller than me. When I met him, I was most definitely taller than him.

      • lwblogger2

        Gotta love roster heights and weights… I was 6’1″, 215lbs and at the time I was really 6’0″, 240-ish.

  17. Kyle

    Excellent return for two months of Leake. The Giants system is bad but to get one of their top, if not top, guys is great. I can’t imagine why anyone would be unhappy with this deal.

    • Hotto4Votto

      Well, when they have three SS prospects in their top ten, and the Reds can’t get one. And instead get a pitcher that may not be any better than the three studs we already have at advanced A, then there’s an valid argument to be made for not being happy. Especially when we already have young pitching coming out the wazoo.

  18. Mike in Belpre

    I have to agree with Nick in Toldeo. Lots of prospects with a lot of potential.

    However, Both Cueto and Leake will be missed. Cueto has been the best pitcher the Reds have developed in many, many years. I have lived long enough to watch the Big Red Machine in person. With that said, Cueto, Rijo, and Soto are probably the best the Reds have produced. Mike Leake will have a long, solid Major League career. He’ll never blow people away, however, learning to change speeds, truly pitch, will allow him to play for a long time. Good luck to Cueto and Leake.

  19. Steve Schoenbaechler

    I don’t know about this trade. I guess getting anything for Leake was a good thing. But, I don’t see either or both of these players being equivalent to Leake. I believe this pretty much relegates us to the FA market for another vet starting pitcher after the season, which still could be Leake.

  20. Redgoggles

    While I was a bigger fan of Cueto than Leake, I am more sad with this deal. Probably because it dashed my smallish hopes of competing in 2016. After all, Walt has shown to be much better in the trade market than the FA one. And with our current (although nice in potential) arms, there is no competing in 2016. Probably the right moves, but sucks nonetheless.

  21. DavidTurner49

    I’m not on board with Bruce for Wheeler but no problem with this trade. Can Duvall play 2b?

    • David

      Agreed. After reading a FanGraphs article about players returning from TJ surgery, I do not want to give up 2.3 years of Bruce for that kind of risk!

      • Brian

        just reported that the divide between the reds and mets is whether bruce for wheeler straight up is enough. so if a deal is done i suspect if there is another prospect coming to cincinnati it won’t be much.

      • Hotto4Votto

        Then they don’t need that deal

  22. docmike

    If we trade Bruce to the Mets it better be for Conforto. Not interested in Wheeler.

    • lwblogger2

      I’d feel better about Bruce for Conforto.

    • Hotto4Votto

      Now that’s the thinking! Get it done Walt. Don’t need more damaged goods.

  23. CRig

    I understand that the team needs offense, but I’m not sure I agree with the rhetoric that a trade for pitching < a trade for hitting. At least regarding Leake & Cueto, they're free agents to be. These are rentals. We're lucky to get a stud out of a deal. Here, we've got several great pieces. Yes, it's pitching, but I'd rather get the best return possible–which, I think, is what happened.

    Once we go into the realm of moving Frazier/Chapman/Bruce, I think that's where the big time hitting prospects would come into play.

    • docmike

      I’m fine with the returns for Cueto and Leake. Like you said, they’re free agents in 2 months anyway, so basically instead of two comp picks, we picked up 4 pitching prospects and a young power bat for the bench. Sounds good.

      But we already have Bruce for the next 2+ years at a very reasonable contract. Absolutely no way I deal him unless it is for at least one stud position player, maybe two.

  24. lwblogger2

    If Bruce goes to the Mets for essentially Wheeler, I will view it as a salary dump and a high-risk move for a pitcher. We already don’t have much in the way of OF bats, especially with good power. The Reds could conceivably resign Byrd but how much will it really save them over Bruce? He’ll also be a year older than he is now and he’s getting up there. This is not making this fan warm and fuzzy. If we move Bruce, I want more than a pitcher coming off TJ surgery and I also want Frazier on the block for a huge haul of hitting prospects. That would be a clear sign as to the front-office having a plan to rebuild for 2018.

    • sultanofswaff

      I’m with you until you talk about trading Frazier. MLB is almost turning into the NFL in the way that teams can become playoff contenders practically overnight. Look at the Twins, Astros, Mets.

      I dunno. I still haven’t fully wrapped my brain around the idea that competing in 2016 is off the table. Even if it is, I don’t think we’d get full value for Bruce or Frazier at the trade deadline, so I wouldn’t take just any deal when a better one could be had in December.

      • lwblogger2

        I also think we’d get more if we traded them in the off-season rather than at the deadline. The thing is though, you really don’t move a productive, reasonably priced position-player if you plan on being competitive during the time that he is under contract. If his contract was really ugly then maybe you move him but it isn’t. There are about 30 MLB OF making more than he is per year.

      • eric nyc

        Yeah but we’re not going to be competitive for at least another year or two and that’s being optimistic. Maybe you get a healthy Bruce in 2017 for a pipe dream wild card run but it’s pretty reasonable to just trade him now. The problem is they won’t also trade Frazier because they officially don’t have anyone to sell jerseys for them anymore besides him and Votto, although the rank and file Reds fan still seems to hate Votto.

    • Carl Sayre

      I can’t see Byrd in a Reds uniform next season unless they adjust his contract. His defense is below average IMO now another year and it could be a career ender.His instincts in the OF are not bad but he is on 37 year old legs and I saw several times it hurt his defense.
      Trading Bruce for pitching leaves me SMH, who would play right? I don’t see squandering a year of control for a piece of a season with Winker. They might pick Heisey up, we know what the bat isn’t going to do but he can play right.

      • lwblogger2

        This year? Probably Rodriguez or Skip.

    • Steve Schoenbaechler

      Agreed. Bruce for Wheeler straight up simply doesn’t make sense to me.

  25. tgarretson82

    5 teams “aggressively pursuing” Chapman, including the Yankees. Lets hope this gets some heavy returns (hopefully batters, but if they are Top 20 in baseball pitchers I wouldnt be mad).

    • eric nyc

      I would take Jorge Mateo and some mid tier pitching prospects for Chapman in a heartbeat. Rumor is they’re also interested in BP. That might be able to score us another top 20 prospect and we could move Mateo or Cozart to 2B.

      • PDunc

        I’m all for trading Chapman and Phillips to the Yankees if possible. I don’t think adding BP is going to get us much more in terms of prospects though. The advantage for the Reds in trading Phillips is mostly in saving $$.

        I’d really like to get Aaron Judge from the Yankees but don’t think that is likely. They have some other mid-level pitching prospects though. I also really like the sound of the scouting reports on Robert Refsnyder and Mason Williams.
        Refsnyder described as “best pure hitter in New York’s system [with] ability to recognize pitches and control the strike zone translates into consistent line drives to all fields.”
        Williams was a top-50 prospect in 2012 and ’13 who has slipped some in prospect rankings but still looks to have some talent and a good approach at the plate.

      • Carl Sayre

        I think that the Yankees were on BP’s no no list before he hit the 5/10 rule.The thought of being in contention might get him to ok it. I will miss him if they do slide him into a trade, IMO he is still earning his salary but his age will win out sooner rather than later.

      • eric nyc

        I can’t imagine why BP would have a problem with the Yankees. You’d think he’d love to be a star in that kind of market.

      • eric nyc

        Agree with you on money being the biggest advantage of a BP trade, too. BP is one of my all time favorite Reds, but that contract is a killer. It is the opposite of Bruce’s deal.

      • Matt WI

        Being able to trade BP’s contract would be HUGE… and remove the need to trade Bruce (I would hope).

      • Tom Reed

        Phillips talent , smile and personality would go over big in The Apple.

  26. jim t

    Wheeler was on his way to being one of the best pitchers in the league. if memory serves me many on this board were all for giving Bruce away in May. Wheelere can be a top of the rotation arm. The risk is the TJ surgery. He is team controlled through 2019. Bruce is a guy who will never have a high OBP. He will give you 20-30 Hrs and play solid defense.He can walk after 2017 and when approached about a extension this winter declined. Here is the question Trade him now with 2 years of team controll which maximizes your return or wait until 2017, wait until the off season or he walks after 2017 and you get a pick. he will not be signed longterm after 2017.My though is this if we can not contend in 2016 why keep him.

    look at the other teams in our division. Cubs are on the way up and have big time prospects and money. The cards are always good and have money, the pirates are loaded with young talent. i say get what you can his value will never be higher. Do njot dilude yourself into thinking we can contend.

    The dilema for the reds is the TV deal is fast approaching and negotiating a contract during a rebuild is not where they want to be.

    • reaganspad

      257 .341 .486 .827

      341 is not bad for as bad as Jay started this year. The guy is getting better and better as he gets healthy.

      How would you feel with Jay hitting 42 HRs for the Mets next year?

      Thought so. Let’s end the foolishness unless we are abosolutely blown away. Conforto, Wheeler and another player and I will begin to talk about moving Jay

    • tct

      The other problem with a complete rebuild is that the Reds have 4 big bats in their primes in Meso, Todd, Votto, and Bruce. You don’t want to just waste that, but they haven’t surrounded them with enough talent to win the last two years. Votto and Meso won’t be moved. And Frazier is supposedly off limits. So if you’re keeping 3 of them, why not keep 4 and see if you can surround them with enough talent to surprise. I’m not against trading Bruce in theory, but Wheeler is not what I’d be looking for. And if you trade Bruce, you might as well trade Frazier, too.

      I don’t really get why the Reds are so down on Bruce and his contract right now. I have this fear that Bob wants to open up some money to sign Frazier to a ridiculous extension. That would be a bad move.

      • lwblogger2

        “I have this fear that Bob wants to open up some money to sign Frazier to a ridiculous extension. That would be a bad move.”

        That thought just made me a little sick. I love Frazier but he’s already older than Bruce and any new deal after the one he just signed is going to be for a lot more money than Bruce is currently signed for.

  27. eric nyc

    Aside from the 2 extra years of team control, Wheeler for Bruce makes no sense for the Reds. First of all, we’re officially stacked in pitching prospects and if we trade Bruce then we aren’t contending until at least 2017 and more likely 2018, which would mean that we would really only be contending with Wheeler for a year or two tops. And he was basically Mike Leake even before the surgery. Compare his career xFIP of 3.74 to Leake’s 3.77. He might have a little more ceiling left, but he’s not an ace. A health Jay Bruce is worth close to twice the WAR of Wheeler in any given season, at least through the rest of Bruce’s contract before me might start to decline. This would be a ridiculous trade that is exactly the kind of move I would expect Walt to make. I honestly don’t know who they think is going to be scoring runs in 2 years.

    • Hotto4Votto

      Not much of what Walt’s doing is making much sense.

      • docmike

        Eh, I’m fine with the returns for Cueto and Leake. They’re free agents in 2 months anyway, so basically instead of two comp picks, we picked up 4 pitching prospects and a young power bat for the bench. Sounds good to me.

        But we already have Bruce for the next 2+ years at a very reasonable contract. If Walt trades him for Wheeler straight up, then yes, that makes no sense at all.

      • eric nyc

        I love the Cueto and Leake deals. I would have preferred to get an everyday prospect in there somewhere at some level, but it’s hard to argue with the value we got for two guys we had zero chance of re-signing. That’s why I’d trade Byrd for literally anything they could get for him right now. I’d even throw in the rest of his 2015 salary. Why keep ANY player on this roster that won’t be here next year?

      • Hotto4Votto

        My problem with the deals is that Walt doesn’t seem to understand the currency of today’s game has changed to hitting. He’s still stockpiling pitching. Those P prospects will be hard pressed to return a bat in a trade. Look at what a top 10 (Reds) prospect in Lively brought back, Byrd. Whoo-hoo. It’s like Walt is still collecting beanie-babies thinking they’re going to be worth something one day, while the rest of the world has moved on from that craze.

    • Matt WI

      I’m not against the idea of Wheeler, but maybe it just feels like Bruce is too much. The idea of Bailey/Wheeler/Disco/Stephenson/XXXX starts to look much better sooner than what they have heading into next year. Especially in that it takes the pressure of any one given prospect (Stephenson included) to have to be great or the season blows up.

      Pitching is just so uncertain, I think you always need a few more dominoes than you think you do. And, great pitching is the best way to be as competitive as possible as soon as possible. How many times do we see teams with sluggers all over and still struggle (ahem, the Angels, for instance).

      • eric nyc

        I don’t hate the idea of Wheeler either, but for 2.3 years of Bruce straight up? That is a really bad trade for the Reds unless a top end prospect is involved, and preferably a position player. Wheeler is a mid-rotation starter. Bruce, as frustrating as he has been, is a plus OF with elite power. That’s just not a good straight up trade no matter how much pitching you have or don’t have in the system.

      • Matt WI

        Does it start to feel like a little bit of the credo of don’t trade an everyday player for a pitcher? Though not entirely in the same realm, but something like the Hamilton for Volquez trade?

        I think if they trade Bruce for Wheeler, it probably says a lot more about budget considerations than a specific rebuilding plan. Kind of a mixed message. “We need to get cheaper, but we’re still trying to look like we might, maybe be good.”

      • Matt WI

        Ahhh, I think you’re right. I think I’m not liking the idea of this idea anymore, barring any other players coming with Wheeler.

      • eric nyc

        Trading Bruce because of money is beyond dumb. It would show a fundamental misunderstanding of the metrics that drive today’s game. Sure, he makes more than a couple prospects would, but he is VERY affordable for his production. Deals like Bruce’s are what allow small market teams to compete. If we unloaded a contract like Bruce’s because of the Votto, Bailey, and Phillips deals we might as well pack it up until 2020.

  28. PDunc

    I would have preferred some balance between pitchers and position-players coming back in these trades but overall am pretty happy with the return we’ve gotten for Cueto and Leake. FWIW most analysts I’ve read also think the Reds did pretty good in both trades.

    On trading Bruce for Wheeler:

    I don’t want to trade Bruce. I’m in the camp that says build around Votto, Frazier, Bruce and Mesoraco for the next 2 seasons. If the team is still not competitive, Frazier and Bruce can be traded in the 2016 off-season or 2017 trade-deadline before they become free agents at the end of 2017.

    If Bruce is to be traded though, a package with Wheeler as the headliner doesn’t sound too bad. Per mlb.com Wheeler was the #6 prospect in all of baseball in 2012.
    http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/prospects/watch/y2012/
    He started 49 games for the Mets between 2013 and 2014 during which he walked too many batters (almost 4 per 9 innings) but also struck out a lot (8.55 per 9 innings – over 9 Ks per 9 innings in 2014). If you believe he can come back from tommy john surgery at the same level he was previously, then this is the type of talent you want on your pitching staff.

    • Hotto4Votto

      But why trade a controllable, above average hitter (in his prime) who is well worth his contract for a chance that we may have another yet another P prospect. One who may or may not be what he once was.

      Walt’s trading dollars for pesos.

      • PDunc

        I’m in agreement with you. My first choice would be to keep Bruce. Second choice would be to trade him for an outfield prospect with a good approach at the plate. If the Reds are going to trade him for more pitching though, Wheeler seems like a good option.

  29. Steve Schoenbaechler

    Not Wheeler. Not a smart move there. Not for how Bruce has been hitting the ball since mid-May, slashing 305/376/562 in his last 63 games. Not only more, but I believe we need something different.