According to various reports, the Cincinnati Reds concluded their second trade today that moved a starting pitcher by trading Mat Latos to the Miami Marlins for pitcher Anthony DeSclafani and catching prospect, Chad Wallach.

Latos is entering his third year of arbitration and eligible for free agency in 2016. He was projected to earn $8.4 million in 2015.

273 Responses

  1. Brady

    Wallach posted some great OBP in the low minors this past year. There is definitely a trend there.

    According to Stark, Cozart expected to be moved.

  2. pinson343

    A salary dump. But Walt talked about freeing up money so he could pick up a quality LFer. Let’s see what develops.

    • jessecuster44

      You don’t “dump” the salary of a very good pitcher like Latos. Either Mat’s arm health is not good, Walt made a bad trade, or one of those two players have huge upside.

      • Grand Salami

        I thought it was wrong but apparently he was their best remaining pitching prospect. He has serious potential at the cusp of MLB readiness. This bridges a gap (Iglesias, Desclafani) to Stephenson and the other AA guys.

      • misconcepcion

        I will miss Mat Latos’ arm and potential. I will not miss his spazzy head, tantrums, ump-baiting antics, eye-rolling and high school staredowns of Reds’ defenders who have the audacity to misplay a ball when he’s on the hill. The classic “million dollar arm with a ten-cent head”, Latos does not leave any great memories in my brain pan. Maybe he’ll sort himself out, but the clock is ticking… And his paycheck can be better utilized getting any everyday leftfielder with right-handed thump.

    • Redsfan48

      I am extremely disappointed in the Reds for this Latos trade, especially if it is later determined as a salary dump. The ONLY way I’d be ok with this is if it allows the Reds to sign an impact LF such as Melky Cabrera, or trade for one such as Justin Upton

  3. JRS1972

    How could you trade Latos to the Fish with all of those young bats and not come away with a quality MLB bat?

    The trade looks like a flat out salary dumping move on the surface.

    • Jim t

      Guy hasn’t finished the last two seasona and has lost at least 2 mph off his fastball. You control him for one year then he can walk what did you think he would bring?

    • CRig

      Baseball is like chess. These were necessary pawn moves, that are inconsequential but help Cinci make the big play (or three) down the road, There’ll surely be a few more moves, which would assumedly include both a LF acquisition and a bat. I like the moves and think we fleeced both both the cats and the fish. In Walt I trust.

      • Redsfan48

        God, I hope you’re right. If I were the Reds I wouldn’t have traded Latos, and if I did it would be only if I knew for sure I could get an impact bat through another trade or free agency (ie. J.Upton or Me.Cabrera)

      • CRig

        Now we can shop Chapman, Pena, and Cozart (though I’m not sure whether Suarez will be 100% ready to step in for Cozart). That’s a decent amount of both talent and cash that will get us something of value. Walt is playing for 2015, 2016 and beyond. Today is a great day.

  4. eric nyc

    Really hope this is part of something bigger. Downgrade at pitcher and a catching prospect to sit behind Mesoraco. I know part of the reasoning was to shed salary, but it seems like a year of Mat Latos should be worth more than that.

    • Michael Smith

      Downgrade on a pitcher with I think 5 years of control and a catcher who is at least two years away but a very high obp guy.

      • eric nyc

        That’s why I’m hoping maybe the idea is to move Wallach. Or Barnhart. We don’t need both of them.

      • Grand Salami

        Or Pena and save another million to million and a half.

      • eric nyc

        If we’re seriously just dumping slary for the sake of dumping salary then we’re screwed. Cards got better and the Cubs got better and we’ve gotten worse, though younger. By the time our new young guys mature the Cubs will be in full on Dodgers mode.

  5. Grand Salami

    Suddenly the Reds projected payroll is a very realistic $114 million. Let’s see of Cozy nets the left fielder . . .

    The starting rotation is sure to figure Cingrani and maybe Iglesias (still dreaming of Chapman).

  6. Michael Smith

    Cleared roughly $13 million, picked up a high obp catcher, young pitcher and looks like a good shortstop prospect. Not bad for a days work.

    • lwblogger2

      If the day’s work is to build for the future then yes. If the day’s work is to try to win in 2015 then no.

      • CRig

        I strongly disagree with this opinion. I think this move permits us to compete in 2015 so long as a couple more moves are made.

      • Michael E

        How does this hurt 2015? Explain please.

        Don’t bark about a shoddy rotation, we have Cueto, Bailey, Leake and about 8 different high quality candidates for SP4 and SP5. We lost a VERY mediocre Simon and a solid SP2 in Latos with serious injury and arm strength concerns. We are fine in the rotation.

        Now let us know how this gimps 2015.

  7. Rhody89

    It seems like we got more for Simon than Latos…hope something is missing

    • Michael Smith

      Just put the two deals together and look at how many controlled years the reds just picked up.

    • sultanofswaff

      Agreed. At face value, this deal stinks and reeks of a salary dump. Heck, i don’t even know where Latos slots into the Marlin’s rotation. Kind of a silly move for both sides.

      Let’s pray to God that the cost savings isn’t used to lock up Cueto. In that light, I’d almost be giddy if we threw some of that cash at Aoki or Morse, even though that would mean they’re blocking Winker by June. Walt still has some cards to play, but my gut says this might not end well.

      • jessecuster44

        No, not Aoki or Morse. Find someone better.

      • Dave Byrum

        We would, but all the big bats have been traded already and we are not going after Upton. We are in bad shape in left field all once again. It has only been 4 years in a row now, we have shown we can wait on the impossible to happen.

  8. Dale Pearl

    we still need to dump 4.5 million in salary to get under 17 if that is really a hard ceiling we are facing. Who replaces Latos in the rotation?

    • lwblogger2

      These moves also seem to indicate that the $17-million the Reds allegedly needed to shed are very real. It looks very unlikely to me, at least at the moment, that the Reds will feature a higher payroll then they had last year.

  9. Brandon

    so we have traded away two started and still haven’t solved our out fielding problem. typical reds.

    • charlottencredsfan

      We are rebuilding. Everything just changed. Maybe I’m wrong but if I am, what the heck is going on. I really believe Bob turned the control over to WJ. Man Walt looks happy, almost broke into a full smile!

      • lwblogger2

        Charlotte, you’ve been calling for it all along and it sure looks like that’s what’s happening. This feels like shedding payroll and building for the future. These moves, at least on their own, significantly weaken the team in 2015.

      • Kyle Farmer

        Agreed. Hard to read that Latos deal as anything but completely throwing the towel in on 2015. I wonder if they got a bad medical report on Votto’s knee/quad when he was in town.

      • charlottencredsfan

        For the first time this off season, I’m excited. This version of Reds was going nowhere in a hurray.; over-priced, under-performing and just plain bad. I like both trades, with Wallach being the wildcard. Reds are not the Yanks, they have to take risks and this kid looks like he might turn out to be pretty good. I will be keeping a close eye on him.

        Without doubt, this is Walt’s team now and am thinking Bob C has backed out – at least I’m praying so. He needs to spen more time with the grandkids and quit meddling with the personnel decisions

      • Matt WI

        Agree, Charlotte. I’m wondering if they’ve read the tea leaves on their fellow NL Central competitors and determined that for the uncertainty of being able to compete based on the amount of the team’s “if…X happens” scenarios led them to what I hope will only be a brief retreat and reshuffling.

        I’m ok with this, and weirdly look forward to more change. Any BP takers our there? Anybody? Anybody? Bueller?

      • lwblogger2

        They not only need to take BP but with 10/5 rights, BP also needs to take them. If you want to move BP (who I love by the way), then you need to find a marriage for the team(s) and BP.

      • Michael E

        You love BP? That explains alot. You seem to love all the players I have grown to hate. BP looks lazy and disinterested, his hitting has been on a downward spiral (power going, no speed) and he can’t make the fielding play in the clutch. His lazy look and attitude really set me off for a guy making good money.

        My dad likes BP too, so I know there are alot of fans of BP. I am NOT one of them. If we could trade his bloated salary for a bucket of Dubble Bubble, I’d be thrilled.

    • Michael E

      I like this deal. I read up on DeSclafani and he is a top SP prospect. Wallach is a great hitting catcher, albeit in low A ball. Good deal for an SP2 with injury concerns and one year from walking away in FA.

  10. CTREDS

    What Jocketty doing? He makes a great deal with Simon and then essentially gives up Latos for a stick of gum?

    • charlottencredsfan

      From MLB.com:

      “Wallach continued to improve defensively in his first full professional season, showing an accurate arm and a good baseball acumen. He still has work to do to improve his receiving, especially when working with premium pitchers.

      Offensively, Wallach has a disciplined approach, making him difficult to strike out. He shows some power in batting practice but hasn’t yet fully unlocked it in games. His offensive potential combined with his improving defense give him a chance to continue the family legacy in the big leagues.”

      ETA: 2016 (that number has come up more then once today).

      And this is the short end of the deal for the Reds. More I research, the more I like.

      Looks like Mes’ days as C are not unlimited. If, he remains a Red.

      • reaganspad

        Meso is a 30/100 guy. he should be the LF we are looking so hard for and bat him #4 (2 years overdue)

    • lwblogger2

      It’s possible that Latos’ injury questions have lowered his value that much I suppose. It’s also possible that Walt wasn’t sure so took what he could get. It also flat out sheds over $8-million in salary next year.

      For the record though, I absolutely hate this move. The Simon move looked pretty good. The Reds’ payroll situation must have been so bad that Leake for Cespedes wouldn’t have worked because the Reds would have added about $2-million in salary. This is the early 2000s all over again.

      • jessecuster44

        Exactly, LW. you don’t get poor overnight in the MLB.

      • lwblogger2

        Maybe they lost money last year? Who knows other than the team? Not sure that I’ve seen a Forbes report for 2014. They usually put up some good estimates.

        Still, you have an idea what your arb guys are going to get the next couple seasons. You should also have an idea what your revenue is going to be. I don’t get it.

        Like Steve said, Bailey isn’t costing them much more than he would have in arbitration in 2014. What is going to happen when the Bailey and Votto contracts go up though?

    • Michael E

      So the #2 SP in the Marlins system doesn’t interest you AT ALL? WOW. Basically a Latos clone in DeSclafani. Mid 90s fastball and an “out pitch” slider. Sound like Latos before injury? Yeah. The Catcher is icing on the cake.

  11. JRS1972

    Exactly, Simon deal was a homerun. He followed it up with a sacrifice bunt to unclog the bases.

    • Michael E

      It appears NO ONE has bothered to look at DeSclafani scouting report. The #2 SP prospect in the Marlins system (behind recently traded #1 Heaney) has the look of a front end starter (SP2 or SP3 most likely).

  12. Dale Pearl

    I am glad we got something out of this. Better than nothing and certainly better than a compensation pick. Now it wouldn’t be the end of the world if say we don’t sign Leake this year and he nets us a compensation pick next year. I am waiting to see if Cueto is the next to go though. I wouldn’t be surprised at this point.

    • lwblogger2

      Leake may take a QO next season. It’s also possible that he’s the extension candidate.

  13. Randy W

    I guess we won’t know but do you guys think they could have gotten Heaney instead of this guy has it been a day sooner? Not a fan of this trade. Could have done better.

    • Michael E

      DeSclafani isn’t far behind Heaney, but I’d rather have Heaney if it were possible. I am guessing the Marlins waited till they made the deal for Gordon before they moved on Latos.

  14. User1022

    I feel like these two moves are just the setup to something much, much bigger that is coming down the line….

    Have no idea what, but I have a feeling the Reds are about to do something huge.

    • Grand Salami

      They now have two SS and Negron. I am guessing one won’t be a Red soon enough. My money is on Cozart. Along with a decent prospect he could need a solid LF/bat

      • Dale Pearl

        Cozart is a great defender and the worst hitter in baseball. He will net us nothing but tender scraps of C+ talent from the low minors.

      • redmountain

        On a team that has a lot of offense, Cozart’s BA does not matter much. He would be especially useful on a AL team, where he could bat 9th. Once again, I think it is still to early to start thinking the Reds are done dealing. Jocketty does not make that many trades at the Winter Meetings, but after the Winter Meetings he is known to really get after it.

      • Mister D69

        Should have kept Didi “The Next Jeter” Gregorious instead, I reckon.

  15. zaglamir

    The more important thing is: The reds traded Cat Latos as well. How will our fanbase go on?

  16. Dennis

    Cat Latos traded to LA for a Dodger Dog.

  17. sultanofswaff

    DeSclafini was the #3 prospect for the Fish. From the highlights I just watched, the kid was hitting 95 with ease. Also, he walks very few batters. I don’t see why this guy can’t slot into the #5 spot and give us 90% of Simon’s production.

    Cueto
    Bailey
    Leake
    Cingrani
    DeSclafini

    If any of the last 2 falter, it’s on to Stephenson and/or Lorenzen.

    Is everybody cool with that?

    • Grand Salami

      I’d add Iglesias to the top backup list.

    • JoshG

      you also Have David Holmberg (not a big fan, but he had a couple decent starts)
      and pretty much the same for Daniel Corcino
      and is Dylan Axelrod still hanging around?

  18. User1022

    What free agent pitchers are still available? I’m guessing Walt is going to go that route to plug one of the rotation holes.

    • lwblogger2

      I’d say he’s not. It looks like we’re cutting, cutting, cutting. That may change and all this may be so he can spend some money but I’m starting to feel that’s not the plan.

  19. Dale Pearl

    only thing bad about this trade is that Latos was such an easy name to spell good luck with DeSclafani after a few beers.

  20. sultanofswaff

    Let’s see Walt get creative with LF. Package Cozart and some of the minor league pitching surplus to acquire that guy. Overpaying for Morse or Aoki is not necessary!

    • jessecuster44

      Ichiro would be a lot of fun in a Reds uni.

    • Kyle Farmer

      Absolutely. Better than Aoki or Morse for multiple years.

  21. Athom30

    What kind of LFer to look at? Do we use this new money to lock up Cueto? Moving Frazier into LF and new SS at 3B? I’d love to see us grab a bat because locked up money never seems to be good for us in small markets

  22. Bob Purkey

    Unless there is a major FA signing for a LF(and I don’t mean Aoki), this is a pure salary dump. No way does adding someone like Aoki make this team any better than last years’ team-he will not make up the difference of losing 2 SP.

    Lastly, no way these deals were necessary without the massive oversignings of Bruce, Votto, Phillips, Bailey and Marshall, etc. On the positive note, we got Simon for free as a waiver pick-up and turned that into a young arm and hopefully a replacement for Cozart.

    • JRS1972

      Bruce, Votto, and Bailey signings are all salary steals in 2015 for their expected productions. Phillips not so much.

      • lwblogger2

        Yes. People don’t consider that Bruce has been worth way more than his salary up until last year. They also don’t consider that Votto and Bailey aren’t slated to make the average annual values of their contracts this season. Their salaries go up in future years. Bruce, Bailey, and Votto are not the reason that the Reds don’t have money in 2015. Of course I don’t know why you sign a guy long term when you know you probably don’t have the money to do it.

  23. JoshG

    you also Have David Holmberg (not a big fan, but he had a couple decent starts)
    and pretty much the same for Daniel Corcino
    and is Dylan Axelrod still hanging around?

    • Bob Purkey

      Holmberg? You’ve got to be kidding. The guy has a career MINOR LEAGUE record of below .500. He couldn’t break a pain of glass with his fastball

  24. Dale Pearl

    before we go acquiring a LF we are still over our spending by around 4.5 million. If Walt is to be believed that is.

  25. reaganspad

    You could also start Mesoraco in LF and problem is over. He gets all his ab’s that way. Tucker and Pena as catcher and now you have a great catching prospect on the way behind them.

    I have been saying that Meso should be playing in LF for 2 years. Emergency catcher, and #4 hitter in your line up. The guy is a 30/100 guy. I understand that he would look nice at catcher, but those numbers everyday in LF are what we are searching for.

    And LF is expensive for return.

    • Joe Atkinson

      Mes in LF solves nothing, as far as the team’s offensive production. I like Pena and Barnhart as much as anyone – Barnhart’s a great defensive catcher, and Pena is very solid. But if you put Mes in LF, you don’t solve the problem – you just move it behind the plate. Because unless Barnhart and Pena offer a substantial offensive upgrade over what Ludwick and Heisey gave last year (and I don’t think they would), you haven’t improved your offense.

    • charlottencredsfan

      I think we may be moving there and in 2016, maybe he takes over for JV at first. I believe Walt has been giving the reigns.

      • Kyle Farmer

        Where is Votto going? Nobody is taking that contract as long as it is associated with that leg.

      • lwblogger2

        Yes, the Reds need Votto to perform, perform, perform. If he performs he’s helping the team now and is moveable if the team decides they want to move him. He isn’t going anywhere in 2015 or 2016 though, nor do I think he should. If the Reds can make him close to 12-15% of the team’s payroll.

      • charlottencredsfan

        Let’s see what 2015 brings. Two likely scenarios:

        a – he returns to Joey circa 2012 or
        b – he remains a broken-down shell of his former self

        a – he regains value and you trade him or b – you need a new 1B anyway.

      • eric nyc

        Votto will never be traded. You sign a megadeal like that to get maximum performance from the first 4-5 years of the deal before the huge money kicks in or at least while the player is still performing up to the huge money expectations. You take that production as compensation for the back end of the deal where you know you’re going to get screwed. So if Votto puts up a huge year this year, he’d still only have maybe 2-3 years more of simply being worth his salary before starting to become an albatross. No team would take the trade off. We’ve likely already missed the boat on Votto’s deal working out for us financially in the big picture, but at the very least we can hope he gets back to his old self for a few more years and helps us stay competitive.

  26. Joe Atkinson

    I’m with those saying Walt still has one more card in the hole. Very curious to see what it’s going to be.

  27. docmike

    Welp, I said we fleeced the Tigers, but it appears we got fleeced by the Marlins.

    You win some, you lose some…

    • jessecuster44

      I betcha WJ did not like the health of Mat’s arm.

  28. docmike

    What I find odd is that it seems like we got the same return in both trades. I find it amazing that Latos wouldn’t fetch a better haul than Simon.

    • Kyle Farmer

      One traded at his apex and one at his nadir. One good decision and one very bad decision.

      • redmountain

        Does it occur to anyone that Latos value was not as high as we think? I think the Reds got value for him. This trade in two years may look brilliant.

  29. Kyle Farmer

    It was fun pretending that we weren’t a financially strapped small market team for a few years, wasn’t it? Those days are over.

  30. Bruno

    I see money spent on pitching being shifted to offense.Salary dump/add controlled years is just the start.I think more moves are coming.

  31. Bob Purkey

    Anybody like Chase Headley here? Move Frazier to LF. It seemed like Headley was looking for a bundle of $$, but isn’t getting it, and it doesn’t appear that he wants to return to NY

    • JoshG

      no, Headley had one good year, not worth anything near the money he’ll get

  32. Alex

    At first glance, the Latos deal looks underwhelming. DeScalfini projects as a backend starter or even reliever and Wallach hit well as a 22 year old in A ball but allowed 10 passed balls in 91 games. He’s on no one’s prospect list. Latos is one of the top 40 starting pitchers in baseball, so this deal is curious at best.

    With about $12-13m cleared, they will probably spend a bit more on the OFer. The funny aspect of the pitching situation is that the only reason Bailey got $100m instead of Latos was he hit FA sooner and was drafted by the Reds. Certainly not a better pitcher.

    And these deals probably assure that Bob C. isn’t going to let Cueto go next year.

    • redmountain

      Bailey two no hitters, Latos none. Lets see what happens. Trades cannot be thoroughly until several years after they are done.

  33. docmike

    Next year’s rotation?

    1) Cueto
    2) Bailey
    3) Leake
    4) Igelsias
    5) Cingrani

    DeSclafani at Louisville. Stephenson and Lorenzen also on the horizon.

  34. Mark Bradford

    There wouldn’t be a need to trade Latos if the attendance wasn’t bad. The Reds need fans to go to support a high payroll, they stopped going, which makes this salary dump necessary.

    • Brian

      yes but not doing anything at the deadline to improve the team and have the second half the reds did (not making the playoffs) also played a role in lower attendence. If you put a team on the field that competes like they did in 2013 you will in turn have a higher attendence.

      • jessecuster44

        Bingo. Acquiring a bat at the deadline tells fans that you plan to compete, which was not the message sent. I’m not buying tickets unless the team shows that it wants to win.

      • Mark Bradford

        A team shouldn’t have to win for you to buy a ticket.

      • Bob Purkey

        Agreed. You can complain that attendance was lower than expected, as that is a just a big cop out. This is now the entertainment business, and BUSINESS with a capital B! The Owners and players have both been saying for years that “this is a business. . .”

        Entertainment dollars are being spent more conservativley these days and when you look at the cost of tickets in all major sports, can you blame a fan who doesn’t spend his/her hard earned dollars on a mediocre product?

        After all, if you read a review on a movie/play/concert, and the reviews suck, do you spend your hard earned dollars to go see it? Let’s face it, the Reds were mediocre, and worse than that – they were incredibly boring to watch! Why should a fan be critaclized for not going to watch a boring performance/product.

      • charlottencredsfan

        Bingo – thanks for making an excellent point. That team in the second half was nearly impossible to watch and the thought of watching the same in 2015 was beyond depressing. Bring on the new blood.

    • ToddAlmighty

      The Reds were 13th in attendance in MLB despite being a 76 win team that was painful to watch pretty much all year, even when they won. They were 15th in 2013 when they won 90 games. Nice try.

      Let me guess.. your eyes are brown?

  35. Brian

    i guess it also probably accomplishes Phillips willing to not use his 10/5 rights

  36. User1022

    My guess is, there is a package being put together, headlined by either Cueto or Chapman, with Cozart thrown in as a “bench/defensive replacement” guy.

    What could a package of Chapman, Cozart and Wallach net us?

  37. Tyler Burdett

    There’s no way the Reds were going to get a young bat from the Marlins for Latos. The marlins trading away a young, cost-controlled bat such as Yelich or Ozuna would be the equivalent of the Reds trading away Mesoraco or Hamilton. It just doesn’t make sense to trade away good, cost-controlled players. I look forward to see what else Walt will be doing this winter. I feel he has a greater plan and this is only the beginning.

  38. Robby20

    Latos is not the pitcher he was. Only time will tell if the Reds got anything of value for him but he was clearly not healthy last year and any team acquiring him was taking a chance. Of the pitchers to trade Simon and Latos were the obvious choices to go. (No one takes Bailey at this point)

    • ToddAlmighty

      In the 4 years prior to 2014, Latos had a 3.27 ERA, 116 ERA+, 1.161 WHIP, 2.6 BB/9.

      In 2014 he had a 3.25 ERA, 111 ERA+, 1.161 WHIP, 2.3 BB/9.

      Sure his velocity was down a bit, and because of that he has a slightly lower K/9, but he was still getting the same control and same results. All they did was trade for an inferior arm while filling zero holes.

      • Robby20

        Some say numbers don’t lie. I’m not with you on this despite the numbers arguing against me. His sample size in 2014 was significantly smaller than each of the previous 4 years and he was shut down at seasons end because his arm was not healthy. He is not the same pitcher and if he were the Reds would have gotten more for him.

  39. ToddAlmighty

    I don’t like this Latos trade. How do you trade an arm of Latos’ caliber and NOT fill any holes? This smells an awful lot like a salary dump, in which case, Walt needs to stop fooling around and properly rebuild this team because if you’re dumping Latos just to free up like $8.5m, then the season’s already lost and you’re going to be the 5th place team in the division.

    I don’t really understand what the Latos trade did other than remove salary. Got a much inferior pitcher, and a low minor league catcher. So you weakened the pitching and added zero offense while taking away one of the few guys who had ANY personality and fire on the team.

    • Mark Bradford

      The Reds saved $8 million. That is huge for a team with money issues. That was what was accomplished by the trade.

      • ToddAlmighty

        And I am saying if you have to dump a 3.25 ERA starting pitcher just to save $8m, you have no business pretending like you want to compete in 2015. You need to rebuild.

      • Mark Bradford

        They obviously not pretending they are going to compete. They know this team will not win. They are completely rebuilding. Hard to rebuild with the horrible Votto and Bailey contracts.

      • charlottencredsfan

        Yeah, I don’t know what is so hard to get about this but it apparently is. 2015 was flushed down the toilet prior to today. Today is a new beginning, there will be no patch job – thank God.

  40. CTRedsFan

    I doubt these transactions signify either another pending big move or a rebuilding. The Reds are simply dumping the salaries of the two FA pitchers they are not trying to resign. In other words, they will probably try to re-sign Cueto and Leake.

    Suarez will fill the role Santiago played last year in 2015, and assume the starter role in 2016, with Negron as the other reserve infielder. Cozart will be the SS in 2015 and gone in 2016. The 4th and 5th OF’s will be Skip and Jason B.

    Walt will fill the LF spot with a cheap one to two year FA signing (Aoki).

    The 2015 bullpen will be Marshall, Parra, Hoover, LeCure, Chapman, Diaz and a yet to be determined cheap FA signing.

    These are your 2015 Cincinnati Reds.

    • Kyle Farmer

      If so, it’s a significant step in the wrong direction.

    • ToddAlmighty

      Not impressed. Smells of a 5th place team.

      • Mark Bradford

        Someone has to finish 5th. They are a 5th place team because their top paid players don’t play to their salaries.

    • Grand Salami

      Thanks C. Trent – I agree that is the most realistic scenario. Let’s make the LF Ichiro and see if we can get he and Pete to do some appearances together.

  41. Drew

    Trading proven talent on the major league level for “prospects” is never a good idea in my view. The “odds” that the players you are getting meet or match the talent you gave up is not good. I have no problem with dealing either guy, but the return on both was sad and shows that Walt and Bob have given up on this team for 2015 and will be reflected in attendance. Who cares about future seasons, if you are not in it to win it the very next season, then please Leave and get in ownership that does with mag’t that get the job done.

    • docmike

      The return on both was not sad. The Reds got way more than they should’ve for Simon, if I’m a Tiger fan I’m ticked.

      Now, if I’m a Marlin fan, well…

  42. Drew

    Word is White Sox looking for some bullpen help and willing to offer Dayan Viciedo….couldn’t he fill the spot in LF? Are you telling me Walt doesn’t have what is needed to get this done?

    • ToddAlmighty

      In 483 major league games, he’s collected a total of 0.2 WAR.

      0.0 WAR in 2013, -0.9 WAR in 2014.

      He also has a career 96 OPS+ and ..298 OBP, including a 92 and .281 in 2014.

      • Drew

        And we have WHOM in LF now? Oh wait…we have Skip…..what’s his numbers? Remember we HAVE no money to add real talent…so you take what you can get…

    • Kyle Farmer

      He didn’t have what it took to get Brandon Moss and all it took was a double AA infielder.

    • Bob Purkey

      Viciedo had a .281 OBP last year and averaged 155 K’s per year in his 3 years in CHI – not the type of player that the Reds need at this point.

      • Bob Purkey

        Excuse my error, 115 K’s per year

  43. Drew

    I would call and see if from our bullpen there was anyone they would want and see what could happen…

  44. Dale Pearl

    Paul daughtery has a great piece on the Reds salary and calls it a bluff. He uses information from Forbes magazine to imply that our budget should be around 145 million. I love his last line though: ” I’m sure The Club has reasons it can’t spend even what it did last year. Perhaps you, as a ticket buyer, have similar reasons.” That sums it up for me. If the Reds are not willing to pay in order to play then why go to the games?

    With that said i like both moves today. Took me a while to see through the Latos trade but we got a starter for next year out of a damaged pitcher who will never be the same. We were never going to resign Latos, I think that was a given. I think that also means that Cingrani must be,throwing hard somewhere in secret because it sure looks like the Reds are banking on him projecting his 2013 season in 2015.

    Go read Doug Grays’s prospect reports on the new guys. Sounds pretty good from his perspective as well.

    • charlottencredsfan

      Paul is a hack, everyday is doomsday with this guy. I’ll go with Doug Gray’s opinion any day of he week.

      Can you provide the link to Doug’s piece.

      Thanks, CNRF.

    • al

      Where do you get this “never be the same” bull? If being injured (and good) for a year means you’ll never be the same, why should we keep Cueto or Bailey. Both of them have had worse years because of injuries than Latos.

      Also, Latos is younger and stronger than either of those guys, so if anything, he should be the most likely to deal with injuries. What you said makes no sense.

      • charlottencredsfan

        Cueto is probably out of here too. I would be shocked if HB is on this team the same time next year.

        If this isn’t a complete makeover, in progress, I’ve never seen one. Should have started mid-2014 but better late tan never.

    • DevAJS

      Yeah, the more I think about the Latos trade the less crazy it seems. I mean at worst it’s a wash because while the pitcher they got in return is still sort of a wait and see type of player, so is Latos. Latos may never be the same. I know if we were keeping him we would be hoping he would return to form, but we can’t say that he would.

    • Kyle Farmer

      We don’t know what Latos’s arm situation is. Many have come back from more significant injuries. However, it is a possibility that his arm is shot.

      Are you saying the club didn’t want to resign Latos or that Latos would have wanted to much money and left? They had really laid down roots in the community, bought a house, etc. I think they would have gotten a home team discount if they had wanted to resign him.

    • Drew

      They are prospects..it’s pretty much a crap shoot if they will ever be ML talent or not and we know both Latos and Simon were. Giving up proven ML talent for “possibilities” down the road is not how you run a pro sports team in this day and age. Fans demand you win now or they move on to other things. You can’t have continual down seasons and keep your base. Walt screwed this one up big time, fans are not going to accept giving up good to great talent with the “hope” in 3-5 years the players we got back are on the same level.

  45. al

    Tony D is only two years younger than Latos.

    The Reds front office clearly has no idea how to evaluate talent and value. Somehow Homer Bailey is worth $20mil per year until he’s 34, but Latos isn’t worth $9mil for one year and instead is shipped off for a fringe prospect.

    Remember, Latos was as good last year (ERA+111) than Bailey was in the best year of his career (112). Walt needs to go, and this team needs to be torn down and rebuilt by someone with some idea of how to value players.

    • charlottencredsfan

      If Baily was Walt’s doing, I’m in 100% agreement.

      Apparently Doug Gray has a different view of the Miami newcomers. I think I’ll wait and see.

      • Grand Salami

        Yes, Doug seemed a lot more excited about the Latos haul than the Simon haul. Rankings mean little

      • al

        I don’t know, Doug said that the pitcher may end up being a reliever and would fall somewhere in the 8 to 15 ranger of the Reds top prospects. The catcher has one good season at low A, but he was old for that league.

        I would hope for a guy as young and talented as Latos is, I would hope we could get a prospect as good as Sal Romano (who he has at #6).

    • Dale Pearl

      Pre Latos injuries I agree with you. Post Latos injuries I am glad we were able to get a bag of peanuts and a sausage dog.

      • lwblogger2

        I hear you but if he puts up 12-14 wins, around 200 innings, and an ERA under 3.50 (to use very traditional metrics) then this looks like a horrible trade.

  46. BigRedMike

    Really glad the Reds traded Latos, did not like him and the Reds should sign Cueto to an extension. Latos velocity was down and not worth the salary given the Reds defense. The Reds likely could not count on Latos being healthy next year.

  47. wizeman

    The Reds have decided who they want to go forward with and it is not Latos or Simon. Latos not coming back after next year and we got what we could out of Simon… plus publicity only going to get worse on that joker.
    Just thinking out loud… who is going to play shortstop for the Phillies now that Jimmy Rollins gone? Who has two shortstops. Who has a left fielder who can hit at an affordable price the next two years. Oh yeah… the Phillies.
    Do not think Walt is finished.

    • Kyle Farmer

      I really disagree with those who are saying Latos would not have signed and extension with the Reds. I think he would have signed and signed at a discount. He and his wife have made their premanent residence in Cincy and been open about enjoying the community. The recently had a baby and seemed to want to put down roots.

      There may have been very good reasons to trade Latos for seemingly little in return but him not signing an extension is surely not one of them.

      • wizeman

        Latos has house in Florida also….

  48. WVRedlegs

    These two moves are sound. The risk on Latos’s right elbow was extraordinarily high. Some nice prospects and take one or two of them, pair them with a couple of the Reds own, and we get the LF.
    I am even more opomistic that the deal coming is with Tampa Bay for Ben Zobrist. One of today’s pitchers, a C that either was acquired today or Barnhart, to go along with Holmberg or a #4-8 top pitching prospect, and another top-10 position player prospect might get it done with Tampa Bay for Zobrist. Zobrist is only signed thru next season, so the Reds can’t give a 5th player up for him. But if they could get bullpen help back in the same deal by getting Boxberger back, what a bonus that’d be. But within reason, whatever it took to get Zobrist and its a fairly nice offseason.

  49. Dale Pearl

    Funny thing reading all these posts is it becomes very clear who the favorites are. Latos fans are steamed, but those that realized the Reds were never going to,resign him are ok with that. He was just a loan to get us close to our young arms in the,farm system.

    Nobody seems heart broken over Simon going but there was plenty of bummed fans on the Heisey deal. I contend that,Simon still has a few quality yeas in him. Put him in a pitcher friendly park and he could be your #3 guy.

    • wizeman

      thinking they thought cingranis shoulder in better shape than latos elbow and he was expendable. no way iglesia opens season anywhere but cincinnati

    • jessecuster44

      Simon may be a sex offender. Maybe that’s why few fans were upset.

    • docmike

      Nobody is heartbroken over losing Simon because he just had a career year and will likely never repeat that performance again. He will be a #5 starter at best. In that trade, the Reds peddled one year of a #5 starter set to make around $5 million, for the Tigers’ top pitching prospect and Cozart’s potential replacement. Has nothing to do with not liking Simon, it has everything to do with improving the team.

      On the other hand, those of us upset about the Latos deal think we didn’t get enough back. I hate to lose him, he was one of my favorites, but I’m fine with trading him for an appropriate return. For one year of a solid #2 starter, who will be a bargain at $8 million, I do not feel that we got an acceptable return.

    • RM

      Reds, at this time, will not contend for the central division title with the current makeup of the team. We have been told that with the trimming of this payroll, other changes will come. Let’s see what they are, or is this management blowing smoke like they have the past 3 years. At some point, they have to make moves that will improve the team. At this point, they have not.

  50. TubbyRed

    Latos gave the Reds 2.5 good years of pitching. He was hurt and shut down at the end of 2 those years. The Reds traded away 3 prospects and 1 SP for Latos and you could argue none of the Prospects have reached their expected potential. Now the Reds gambled and dealt Latos for 2 Prospects that the Reds organization believe will help them in the future more than what Latos will help the Reds in 2015. Do I like Latos yes. Do I think not having Latos in our rotation come start of 2015 means we no longer have a shot at the playoffs, well I will make that call when the Reds take the field on opening day.

    • Matt

      For what’s it worth, a major asset the Reds traded away to get Latos was Yasmani Grandal. Grandal was the main reason the Dodgers parted with Matt Kemp. Just playing devil’s advocate,

      • Michael E

        Dodgers “parted” with Kemp because they were desperate to dump his bloated salary and bum shoulder. This is not all-star Kemp, this is overpaid, weak-shouldered Kemp.

        Grandal is what he is, mediocre hitter and poor fielder. The Padres made out better, but only because they gave up nothing of value. If Kemp stinks, they will have a big contract to pay for several years, even with the $32 million the Dodgers sent over to help cover the bloat.

      • CP

        Grandal would have been the Reds’ 3rd best hitter last year. Maybe that says more about the Reds than Yasmani Gandalf, but his wRC+ was > 102. By definition: above average hitter. He’s also better defensively than Devin Mesoraco.

      • cleveredsguy

        Not sure exactly what you are referring to defensively. Fangraphs cetainly likes Mesoraco better. In 2014, Mesoraco provided 4.4 WAR with a wRC+ of 147. Grandal provided 1.1 WAR and a 111 wRC+. For 2015 the steamer projections have both players at a wRC+ of 110 but Mesoraco at 2.7 WAR and Grandal at only 1.5 WAR. The difference in WAR being Mesoraco’s better defensive numbers. Mesoraco has +2 defensive runs saved and Grandal has -4 defensive runs saved.

        I think Walt made the right choice in who he dealt to the Padres. Not too mention the Steroid mishap for Grandal.

      • MrRed

        With all due respect, what does this really have to do with the Reds situation now? Would you rather have Grandal’s slightly above average hitting or Mes’s 147 wRC+? The Reds couldn’t have both and they stuck with the right guy. And I’m not so sure about Grandal being better defensively. He was -1.6 dWar last year while Mes was 7.3.

      • Steve Schoenbaechler

        The thing is, when we traded for Latos, he was healthy. Now, he isn’t.

      • Michael E

        …and cheap and growing/getting better. Now it is none of that. He is still a good pitcher, if he gets relatively healthy, but all the intangibles have degraded due to time, as they do for many players.

  51. Nathaniel

    So what does the projected starting rotation look like now?

    1. Cueto
    2. Bailey
    3. Leake
    4. ? Cigriani (sp?)
    5. ? DeScalfani or Crawford

    I would love to see Chapman be in the starting rotation but I get the feeling he doesn’t want to put in the work to be a starter.

    • newtonrm

      5 will likely not be DeScalfani and almost surely not Crawford. Holmberg and Axelrod are probably going to get the first shot at that slot, with a possible Stephenson or Lorenzen late season call-up.

    • Michael E

      Don’t forget Iglesias. My money is on Cingrani and Iglesias, with DeSclafani right there. We’ll have an above-average rotation still, IF we don’t suffer an major injury (Cueto oblique has been too healthy for too long…one full year).

  52. Aaron Bradley

    I am surprised the Reds were able to get a solid prospect for injury-prone Latos who is in his final contract year. They shed salary and got a guy that might become one of our better starters, and he is cost effective for 6 seasons. Let’s remember the strength of this team is Price working with young pitchers, this seems like a good project for him.

    • jessecuster44

      Price has enough projects, IMHO. Like managing a bullpen.

    • lwblogger2

      Latos has one season where he has significant DL time and now he’s injury prone? I don’t get it. It will be interesting to see what he does next year and if his velocity is still down. If he really does struggle, I’ll admit I was wrong about Walt selling too low on Latos but not until then.

      • al

        When Redleg Nation collectively decided that Latos was a cripple I’ll never know. Cueto and Bailey have been way more injury prone over their careers. Pitchers all get injured. The fact that Latos has only missed time in one of his five seasons is actually good.

      • charlottencredsfan

        Cueto “when” healthy is at the pinnacle of starting pitchers. When the going gets tough, JC gets even tougher. I like Mat a lot and hear you but he didn’t show well in high pressure situations, IMO anyway.

        There are risks with Cueto, t be sure, but the upside is enormous. For my money, Johnny is the best Reds starting pitcher I’ve seen in my lifetime. DOB: 2-23-1961.

      • redsfan06

        Charlotte, I have to agree Cueto is the best starting pitcher the Reds have had in just about forever…or at least since Seaver.

      • eddie koverman

        the reds had a sp named maloney who was the best starter in my lifetime 10-11-57

    • Michael E

      Aaron, it is nice to meet a knowledgable fan. Too many on here haven’t even bothered to read up on DeSclafani or Crawford. They dismiss them as throw-ins or trash. We just got top SP prospects and an SS that looks to be better than Cosart (hope so), as well as a very good hitting catching prospect still in A ball.

      We made out well in BOTH deals. For SOME reason many fans on this board seem to have mistaken Latos with Kershaw. Latos is a solid SP2 type, but coming off of a fairly concerning injury. They dismiss the injury like it is nothing.

      Also, we were going to lose Latos next year. We saved about $14 million on the 2015 payroll (Latos and Simon Arb raises esitmated to be that much or more), and have now a top 5 SP prospect pool that other teams would love to have.

      Kudos Walt. We still have a 2015 contender, still have an above-average rotation and got some promising prospects. Nicely done.

  53. lwblogger2

    May want to watch the F-bombs my friend… I’m really, really angry and frustrated right now but there are kids that read this blog.

    • lwblogger2

      I’ll add that the folks running it do a great job of keeping it pretty clean and pretty friendly, if sometimes heated too. Thanks again guys.

  54. JRS1972

    I am not opposed to trading Latos, but we should have gotten more from him. Even for one year on a team trying to contend, Latos could be a game changer.

    • Michael E

      Latos is an above-average SP when healthy, but not an ace. He could be “a game changer”, but more likely just a nice addition and then he’ll bolt after next year for FA pay day.

      The SP we got was the #2 SP in the Marlins system, behind the stud SP Heaney. We did just fine.

  55. DevAJS

    I’m not going to lie, I liked Latos, but after thinking a little and people mentioning some of his mental issues, I’m not as upset about it. Cueto is older, but he’s also more stable than Latos on the mound. Not much seems to phase Cueto anymore. We already have a “has it/doesn’t have it” pitcher in Bailey. Cingrani is only one more secondary pitch away from being a solid #2/3. Then there is Lorenzen, Iglesias and the pitchers that they just got in return.

    • jessecuster44

      faze. As in: “Latos got fazed by the umpire squeezing him.”

  56. Brian

    the more i think about the trades, the more I like them. the rotation is still pretty solid provided they stay healthy regardless of who you slot in at #5. This kind of rotation actually reminds me a bit of St. Louis in that they always have 3 or 4 proven arms in the rotation but always give 1 or 2 young prospects a shot as well.
    Where I have some questions is with Chapman and Cozart, I think Cozart became expendable and will probably be moved but clearly Chapman at his salary is a luxury the Reds can no longer afford and would be better off putting those funds to address other issues on the team.

    • Drew

      I just don’t see Chapman going anywhere. He is a freak show, people come to the games just hoping to see him throw and Bob knows that.

      • jessecuster44

        Chappy pitches 1 inning every 4 days right now. He would pitch 6+ innings every 5 days if he started…

      • Drew

        Problem is he doesn’t want to do that…

      • jessecuster44

        That shouldn’t be Chappy’s choice, should it? No amount of trades will solve that problem.

        Manager: Aroldis, you are a starting pitcher, and will pitch every 5 days. Stretch out that arm. Your days of closing are over.

        Chappy: Yes, sir. You’re the boss.

        See how easy that is?

    • al

      Who are all of these pitchers you’re talking about? Cueto is one year away from missing most of the year with injuries, and he just pitched over 240 innings on a small frame. There’s basically no way he’s going to get through next season without an injury.

      After him we have Bailey, who was terrible last year. We have Cingrani, who was injured all of last year and terrible. We have one more year of Leake who had a below league average ERA last year.

      And then what? Prospects or retreads. Every team needs at least 6 good starters because of injuries, and I think we have maybe 2.

      • jessecuster44

        Good point. However, every time I suggested trading Corcino or Lorenzen for a bat last year, I got tsk tsked by some who said they were great pitching prospects. We’ll see, won’t we?

      • docmike

        Every team can’t have 6 above-average starters. That’s just not feasible. You’re doing well if you have a rotation of 1 stud, 2 above-average, and 2 a little below average.

        Bailey was not terrible last year by any stretch. His ERA was right around league average. Maybe not what we were hoping for, but not terrible. I think he’ll be above average this year.

        My problem with the deal is not trading Latos, but the fact we got so little in return.

      • Michael E

        I like DeSclafani…ALOT. I guess we disagree because I think Walt got a good deal getting the Marlins #2 SP prospect and a good lower level catching prospect. Latos will be pricey this year (still affordable, but about $9 million) and will walk to FA next year. An SP coming off of injury that sapped his fastball, and a year from FA will not bring back a “can’t miss” stud prospect haul.

      • jdx19

        There is no evidence to suggest a ‘small frame’ makes you more injury prone. Elbow ligaments are all the same size.

      • Michael E

        Agreed. That is hogwash. Reds fans know all about 6’4″ draftees that blow out their arms in low A ball. We had dozens of those the past 30 years.

  57. docmike

    I’m pleased with the trade of Simon because he just had a career year and will likely never repeat that performance again. He is a #5 starter at best. In that trade, the Reds peddled one year of a #5 starter set to make around $5 million, for the Tigers’ top pitching prospect and Cozart’s potential replacement. Has nothing to do with not liking Simon, it has everything to do with improving the team.

    On the other hand, those of us upset about the Latos deal think we didn’t get enough back. I hate to lose him, he was one of my favorites, but I’m fine with trading him for an appropriate return. For one year of a solid #2 starter, who will be a bargain at $8 million, I do not feel that we got an acceptable return.

    • Michael E

      A top SP prospect, near MLB-ready and a good catching prospect is more than fair return, considering Latos is walking next year and coming off an injury that sapped his fastball. He might recover to mid 90s, but if he doesn’t we would have gotten even less next July.

  58. lwblogger2

    Ok, I’m bailing for awhile. It’s not worth getting so worked up over. There is still plenty of off-season left. Although my hopes for a competitive Reds team in 2015 are now about completely dashed.

    • jessecuster44

      Need a big bat in LF…. waiting… I figure Cozart is next for a middle reliever. We’ll get to the LF in March, I’d say.

    • BigRedMike

      Dashed due to trading Latos?

      The Reds defense supports the pitching. 2015 success/failure will likely be dictated by the offense

    • Michael E

      You put way too much value on Latos and Simon. You act like we have nothing to compete for those spots. Our rotation should be above average in 2015 as things stand right now. SP 4 and SP 5 are unknowns, but the huge pool of quality candidates should alleviate any serious concerns.

      Cingrani, Iglesias, DeSclafani, Stephenson, Axelrod, Lorenzen, Howard…and others. Not to mention a likely cheap, 1 year vet FA signing for middle relief, or SP5 duties. We’ll be fine.

      Now, the concerns of 2015 have not changed from 2014 (in positive or negative way). They are:

      – bullpen that was awful. Improve to just average and we’ll gain back 10 or so wins
      – Poor hitting that was due to bad health (Votto, Bruce, Mesoraco) and poor LF and SS hitting. Fix some of that with a healthier Votto or career average Bruce and an average LF and we gain a few more wins.

      The rotation is still a strength, not sure why anyone would think otherwise… save for Latos or Simons’ mothers.

  59. Ken H

    I thought that the Reds were looking for a full time left fielder. Why did we not go for Matt Kemp or Yoenis Cespedes? We could have given the Dodgers or Red Sox both pitchers for one.

    • charlottencredsfan

      $17M hole and common sense.

    • jessecuster44

      Simon? Doubtful. Over 30, one year wonder, performance fell off in July/Aug/Sept…

      Matt Kemp would have looked mighty fine in LF. Picking up a SS tells me other things at work before LF.

    • DevAJS

      I think this is a smarter move though. They didn’t just trade a pitcher for a left fielder, they got some pitching prospects in return. I read somewhere that Walt essentially said they weren’t going to just trade a $10 million player for another $10 million player which is what that would have been. I admit that I’m hoping something else is coming, but the signs are there that there is something else if it can be agreed upon.

    • Michael E

      Really? You think we can afford to add a huge contract and injury concern in Kemp? Wow, when did we relocate to Manhattan?

  60. eric nyc

    Does make you kind of wonder though, might we have been better off with Didi Gregorious all along? I think we probably would have found another good SP along the way to fill Latos’ shoes. He was never dominant here. And the last few years one of our biggest problems has been the offensive black hole at SS. A slight downgrade at one SP spot for a possibly big upgrade at SS? Gregorious had a down year last year with some injuries, but the Yankees are installing him as the heir to Jeter so people recognize his upside. Maybe Suarez turns into something similar but this trade sort of makes it feel like we just spun our wheels for the last 3 years. I guess everything makes sense in hindsight, though.

    • jessecuster44

      Didi got traded as part of the Choo deal, not for Latos.

    • charlottencredsfan

      Mat Latos was worth his weight. don’t ee how that can be argued.. This wasn’t about Latos’ ability but the reality of economics.

      Gregorious was the Choo trade.

  61. ManuelT

    I became a bigger fan of Latos when he demonstrated he could still pitch well at a reduced velocity. Was thinking he would bounce back this year with improved health/velocity. Would rather have him than Bailey or traded him at the deadline for a bigger haul.

    • charlottencredsfan

      Everyone, maybe outside of Steve, would have liked to see Homer moved rather than Mat. He needs to build some value first – he is just not tradeable at the moment.

      • jessecuster44

        I don’t understand the love affair with David Dewitt Bailey. He’s thrown two no nos, and looked dominant at times, but it took him forever to become the pitcher he is: a bit too inconsistent (horrible in April and May) and an injury risk. I’d rather have Mat, Dallas and Cat.

      • Kurt Frost

        Yeah, Matt’s not an injury risk at all.

      • jessecuster44

        What about Dallas and Cat? They stay healthy. I’d say both Mat and Homer are equal injury risks.

      • Michael E

        Cueto has been injured more than any of our SPs. His obliques have been strained numerous times. I am hoping beyond hope we don’t pony up a 5 or 7 year deal for Cueto at the $135 or $170 million it will take.

        I like Bailey. He does aggravate me in that he can’t pitch well in April or May. He loves the heat and gets better in the summer. He was our best SP in the playoffs as well and that counts for something.

      • Carl Sayre

        Count me with Steve I would much rather have Homer than Latos though I liked the bulldog mentality, seeing this trade makes me sure that Latos wasn’t healing. The big problem with his pitching since his velocity was down he was trying to be too fine. He was a 5 and a third inning or 6 inning pitcher because he was running his pitch count up every game.

      • Michael E

        Count me with Carl and Steve. Bailey has the ability to dominate. Latos does not. Latos IS more consistent, but Bailey is just now entering his prime. He’ll be fine, unless injuries re-occur (same is said of Latos and Cueto though, so it is an injury concern wash).

  62. wizeman

    gregorius hasn’t hit a lick either.

    • Michael E

      yeah, no big loss there. Cosart is better and I am hoping for an upgrade from him.

  63. Gregg

    I’m not upset about the deals, but…..Are these deals really better than getting a year of service from Latos and Simon and then getting first round picks when the Reds tender them an offer and they sign elsewhere?

    • DevAJS

      That’s hard to say. The players they got in return aren’t just prospects. At least two of them seem to be big league ready or on the very cusp of it and you could possibly add a third to that ‘cusp’ category depending on how they develop in the off season and during spring training. That’s why there are risks with any trades, it’s hard to predict future performance (even when talking about proven performers). We could be looking at these trades at the end of the season and be saying that we won them hands down, or we could be saying we lost them hands down. We’ll just have to wait and see. At least they weren’t traded for retreads or players on the downsides of their careers.

    • reaganspad

      If Simon warranted a QO pick.

      If Latos is not healthy in 2015, maybe he isn’t a QO pick also.

      It does help to have their medical charts.

      I have to give Brian Price some credit that he knows what is going on with Mat

    • Drew

      While I am not a fan of trading for prospects, IT’s sure better to at least get pro players who have something under their belt then guessing on a couple of picks. Plus wouldn’t we just get a pick for each player, this way we come away with four players, WHOM, maybe turned in some other trade this offseason. Always better to get a physical body over a pick, especially in baseball.

    • Michael E

      You assume we make the QO to both. If Latos injury keep his fastball around 89 or 90, we might not want to offer him the $14 or $15 million QO and risk him taking it.

      I seriously doubt we’d offer a 34 year old Simon the QO and I bet the Tigers don’t either.

      We could walk away with NOTHING for either of them. What if either get injured? Again, we get nothing. Sometimes acting quickly is the smart thing, waiting brings risk/reward unknowns.

  64. Drew

    I think the trading of Mat had more to do with the Reds knowing they couldn’t keep both Matt and Johnny and feeling they have a better chance at keeping Johnny over Matt.

    • Kevin J. Brown (@ZebtheRed)

      Agreed.

      The Tigers did get Cespedes and prospects for Porcello though. The Reds’ return for Latos looks meager in comparison.

      • Drew

        Cespedes is a rental and from all that has been reported a club house cancer. I mean to go to play for 3 different teams in a year says a lot. Neither Cespedes or Porcello had any real health issues, Latos has had more then a few. Again I would have liked to have seen ML talent in return, but maybe Walt will use what he got from Miami for that ML talent in a future trade.

      • Kevin J. Brown (@ZebtheRed)

        Latos and Porcello are rentals, too.

        DeScalfini might make the Reds but Cespedes or someone like him is the LF bat we need in 2015.

      • Drew

        I would shoot for someone like him and not him, to much money for a one year rental who seems to not play well with team mates.

      • Kevin J. Brown (@ZebtheRed)

        Cespedes played for two teams last year and the A’s got Lester plus Gomes for the stretch run for him.

      • JohnU

        I don’t think Cespedes answered the problem the Reds face on offense. I think he is a talented hitter, or could be someday, maybe in the mold of Alf Soriano. But Cincy needs baserunners. It’s time to re-evaluate the lie that GABP is a hitter’s park … it’s a HOME RUN hitters park when pitchers throw home run balls. Otherwise, it’s a ballpark.

  65. JohnU

    I am thinking Wallach is a sleeper in the deal because it allows Barnhart to make the Show, which may make Pena expendable. What is Pena worth in a trade? Not much but he could sweeten the pot for somebody else. It’s not a major part of the trade but it’s also not irrelevant.

    • Drew

      No way I put Barnhart on the major league roster this season and sit him. He is still very green and needs to play everyday. I put him back at AAA this season and let him play everyday and only call him up if one of the catchers goes on the DL. I keep Pena one more season.

      • JohnU

        When is Barnhart ever going to beat out Mesoraco? If he waits until 2020, he’s still the 2nd catcher. Another year at AAA is going to do what for him?

      • Drew

        Make him a better hitter and delevope him as a player.

      • Kevin J. Brown (@ZebtheRed)

        Barnhart’s hit about the same in AAA as he did in AA; I don’t think he’s going to develop into a better hitter than he is now. Pena’s reasonably priced at $1.4 million this year but if they want to deal him and save $900k and play Barnhart 30 games behind Mes, I on’t have a problem with that.

  66. Drew

    If you get rid of Pena then your only other option at first is Frazier if needed, and I am not a fan of that.

    • Kevin J. Brown (@ZebtheRed)

      IF JV’s healthy, we hardly need a backup 1B.

      If he’s not, we’re probably screwed anyway.

  67. dradg

    I hate this trade. I understand the economics and the declining fastball velocity, etc. Call me an optimist, but I think Mat will rebound this season.

    But more important, he had that fire. Remember what he did in game 1 of the NLDS in SF in 2010? How many other pitchers would have done that? The guy is a gamer, and his presence will be sorely missed in the dugout, I’m afraid.

    What’s more, he really seemed to like playing in Cincy and liked the teammates surrounding him.

    • Drew

      I just didn’t see Matt staying in Cincy. He is a big city guy as is his wife, I think a big city team would have offered him more and will offer him way more then his value or what the Reds could pay.

      • dradg

        They did buy a house there, so you never know….

        Disclaimer – I used to live next to the Latoses when they were in SD. I’ve followed his career since he debuted, and I’m sure I will continue to follow it. He’s always been one of my favorite players. So fair to say I may be blinded with bias.

    • jessecuster44

      Remember what Mat did in game 5 of the NLDS? Fire burns both ways, and Mat has never been able to eliminate the slow burn that happens when umps squeeze him.

      That said, I liked Latos a lot, and will miss him. Tough to trade a guy like that for the perceived return of prospect pitcher and an A ball catcher.

      • Michael E

        Yeah, Bailey was even more dominant than Mat in the playoffs. I liked signing Bailey, even with the post-signing injury. I am not sure I want to sign Cueto to the mege-deal he’ll command (5+ years, at leaset $23 million a year, probably more), and I did NOT want to sign Latos unless we got a discount of sorts (figuring he’d want $18+ million in 2016 for 5+ years).

      • Kyle Farmer

        Wasn’t he pitching with the stomach flu that day? I blame Dusty for keeping the bull pen fresh that day as much as I blame Latos.

  68. Megageek007

    I can understand your frustration as I have no idea how this is supposed to help us at all.. I do not even know who these kids are? The one thing I can tell you is this: It’s not a heavy hitting Left Fielder!! And please tell me they did not trade these two for Aoki??? <<<< Not a great Left Fielder!!

    • Timbo

      By stating they traded for Aoki I mean this: They freed up money to sign him or the other worthless Left Fielder they are looking at.

  69. Carl Sayre

    Will there be this much fuss being made it Jocketty takes Wallach and Cozart and trades them for a LF? Those 2 may not get us a years rental on a major league LF. They do have value Cozart is a problem for the Reds because our hitting is so poor but for a team that hits pretty good at other positions Cozarts defense is top shelf. Then a catcher that is at least 2 to 3 years away from being major league ready but his bat has been impressive at A ball. I really like Latos tenacity but the injury and the reports of the plasma enriched injections

  70. George Mirones

    The only thing I can add to this discussion, come July 1st and the Reds are in 4th place, 9 games out, we will have all the answers and a 1000 more questions about possible deadline trades. Now if the Reds are in front by 15 games all will be well.:)

    • Michael E

      If 9 games out and some injuries, deal Cueto for a couple of stud, near-ready prospects and reload on the fly for 2016. There is no right or wrong, but we would still have a good team. Losing Cueto would hurt the rotation (back to average), but certainly would improve other positions immensely IF the deal is like other trade deadline rental deals.

      I just don’t think we can afford what Cueto will want, which is about $25 million a year for 5 or more years. He and Votto would take up 42% or more of the payroll in 2016 or 2017 and beyond.

  71. shannon bubnick

    attendance is up all star game coming to cincy you could of traded for a starting left fielder with those pichers any gm could have recieved better players in the trade didnt help the team at all ,front office better get a left fielder what are thinking one big hitter in left and players staying healthy could win the central division

  72. earl99

    Mat Latos did well for the Reds, I don’t like to see him go. I hope he gets healthy and successful.

    I don’t know this pitcher, but Anthony DeSclafini seems like he gets some strikeouts, doesn’t walk a ton and is only 24. Bryan Price is good with working with pitchers, so I hope for the best.

    If the Reds can turn this money that is freed up to signing Cueto beyond this year or getting a bat, do what you got to do. The Reds have some arms that seem to be close to major league ready to possibly fill out the back end of the rotation. If Bailey can step up, Latos loss at the top of the rotation might not be as impacting.

  73. Matt

    I liked Latos, and am glad we had him in Cincinnati for the time we did.

    That said, he’s a risk, given all his injury problems this year and his rapidly declining velocity. Worst case, we dumped 8MM+ of salary and got years of control over a meh pitcher and a future backup catcher. Best case, we dumped Latos and his 8MM+ salary right before he either falls apart or doesn’t pitch due to injury, and got a #4 pitcher and a catching prospect with some upside. I’ll take it.

    Fangraphs has some really, really good points here: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/why-steamer-doesnt-like-mat-latos/

  74. hamiltonred

    Although I am having some trouble rationalizing this deal, it may be the right move towards replacing excess run prevention with run production. Steve had a compelling, data-driven piece making this case https://redlegnation.com/2014/10/07/supply-demand-and-value/

    Lets hope we can get a real upgrade in left field and some depth in bench hitting with the salary shed via these deals.

    Can anyone provide advanced stats relative to Cozart’s numbers on the SS we acquired from Detroit?

  75. Michael E

    From Fangraphs. I agree in full. Reds have done well with BOTH trades, regardless of the whining on this board:

    “The Tigers made their trade with the Reds to get a starting pitcher, but it was Alfredo Simon going to Detroit to replace Rick Porcello. Simon has outperformed his peripherals for 500 big league innings, but he doesn’t look like a great bet to be more than a serviceable back-end starter. To acquire one year of his rights, the Tigers gave up infielder Eugenio Suarez and pitching prospect Jonathan Crawford. Nice little move by the Reds. “

    “Cincinnati wasn’t done, though, trading Mat Latos to the Marlins in exchange for Anthony DeSclafani and Chad Wallach. Kiley McDaniel, on those two.”

    Kiley McDaniel:

    “Just saw RHP Anthony DeSclafani (near MLB ready back end piece, 90-93) and C Chad Wallach (big guy, light bat, may be MLB backup) in AFL.”

    “Latos’ velocity and strikeout rate both took big wrong turns in 2014 after he began the year on the disabled list, so there’s all kinds of red flags here. If he’s healthy and gets his velocity back, he could be a good pitcher again, but it’s one year of a health gamble for the Marlins. I can’t say I’m a fan of what they’ve done the last 24 hours. “

  76. charlottencredsfan

    Waking up this morning and knowing that the Reds budget is under better control and maybe even some breathing room feels good. The Reds can not turn around and start spending that precious money unwisely.

    They still can’t afford to keep JC and his is still a fairly high injury risk. Every time he takes the mound, he will be risking re-injuring that lat muscle. The value of team would nosedive if he gets injured while a Red. The stuff that nightmares are made of. I hope against hope they move him before ST. The value we are risking by keeping him is just too great I love Johny Cueto, as much as anyone, but he really should never take the mound for the Reds again.

    You guys that think the Reds should turn around an unload the money, or a great part of it, for a LF, bullpen, etc.; remember when mid-season comes around and the Reds are in the hunt and we need a piece. The word “budget” has meaning. Hopefully some of us have a better understanding of that word today. Always leave room for a rainy day. Stuff happens and it takes dollars to deal with it.

    • Michael E

      I tend to agree on Cueto. Trading him now, when his value with NEVER be higher, makes a lot of sense. I assume though we’d get a couple of MLB-ready prospects, not some low A ball stud that is years away.

      The risk is Cueto is not as good in 2015 or gets injured (very possible) and we can’t trade him in July or we trade him for a middling RP and low level fringe top 10 prospect.

      Right now, we could probably trade him for a couple of top 5 prospects that are AAA ball or MLB ready. Boston seems like a GREAT fit with extra prospects like Betts, Boegarts and several others. Could we move Cueto and a lesser player, like an RP or Pena or Shumacker (lol) and get two top prospects and an MLB ready fill in (average) player? If so, it makes quite a bit of sense. I just don’t think we can sign Cueto and I don’t WANT to sign Cueto. Not because he isn’t good, he is great…right now, but because of the heart attack-inducing contract that will rival Votto’s and the massive injury concern regarding his side oblique muscles that he has strained/pull a couple of times already.

      Keeping Cueto makes some sense, but if we don’t trade him and he walks away and we get one mid/late first round pick, will these same fans disgruntled with the Latos return (not me, I like it), be suicidal with one draft pick, a prospect that will be a couple of years away from any relevance? Yeah, I thought so. Can’t have it both ways.

  77. TimS

    The Alfredo Simon trade was GREAT, but I am disappointed in the Latos trade. True, Latos needed to be moved eventually, but I believe we received less than market value. Remember, we gave is a past 17 game winner (Volquez), two first round draft picks and a second round pick to get Latos just a few years ago, and now we move him and receive a first rounder and a minor leaguer. Maybe they both become all-stars, and maybe they don’t. Moving Latos leaves us with a rotation of Cueto, Bailey, Leake and ? and ?. Sure, Cingrani might be one fill, though when we tried him a little last year, I believe he did not meet expectations. I just think if they waited until a few more FA pitchers signed contracts, Latos would have brought much higher returns.

    • Steve Mancuso

      When the Reds traded for Latos he had four years of team control left, was healthy and was earning $550,000. He now has 1 year of team control, has had elbow issues, and is projected to earn $8.5 million this year. Teams trade contracts, not just players. Not saying I love the Latos deal. Depends on how DeSclafani shakes out. But comparing it to the trade three years ago isn’t the way to look at it.

    • Michael E

      What Steve said. Time and relativity play a roll in trade value.

  78. Michael E

    I think CP made up some numbers or something. Grandal is so bad defensively he’ll likely have to move to DH or 1B or something. He can’t catch well. Mesoraco was and is, by far, the superior hitter.

    Grandal is a below-average catcher that is an average hitting catcher. He should improve to a solid hitter, but not at catcher…he is a detriment at C on the level of Dunn as an OF.