Final R H E
Los Angeles Dodgers (34-31)
6 10 0
Cincinnati Reds (29-33)
2 7 1
W: D. Haren (6-4)   L: T. Cingrani (2-7)
Box Score | Play-by-Play | Stats | Depth Chart | FanGraphs Win Probability

The Good

Logan Ondrusek. Yes. Logan Ondrusek. In his last 5 appearances, Logan has faced 35 batters without surrendering a run.

Ryan Ludwick had two hits, one a home run in the 4th. Brandon Phillips singled twice in 4 ABs.

The Bad

It’s safe to say that Tony Cingrani has officially won the WHO IS MAT LATOS REPLACING SWEEPSTAKES. Four and two thirds innings, 7H, 6R, 3BB, 5K and 2 HRs, both to Andy Van Slyke’s son, Scott.  J.J. Hoover looked shaky again for the second time in as many outings.

The Ugly

With the bases loaded and nobody out, Ryan Ludwick decided it would be a great idea to swing at a pitch he couldn’t have hit with an ironing board, bouncing into an easy double play. Brandon League looked as he he’d never sniff the strike zone again–and Ludwick gave him a Get Out of Jail Free card. The Reds managed five walks tonight, but hit into 3, count ’em 3 double plays.

Not so random thoughts …

Cingrani has given up on his change up lately. He’s now throwing his four seam fastball as season-high 74% of the time this month, with the occasional slider thrown in. Whatever he’s working on, he’s going to be doing it either in the bullpen or in Louisville. It’s hard to believe the Reds will carry four lefties in the bullpen, which means either he or Sean Marshall heads south.

You want to hear something funny? After watching this anemic offense night-after-night, I drove three hours to Pawtucket, R.I., yesterday to watch the Louisville Bats go hitless for 6 innings before Joey Votto singled.

The Daily Billy: The Hamilton Havoc rendered none tonight, going 0-4.

 

159 Responses

  1. Whoa Bundy!

    Ludwick needs to hit the road. The reds poo the bed on national Tv again.

    • lwblogger2

      He actually hit yesterday. That swing against League was a bad decision but he did have 2 hits, one of them a HR. His play this year has been pretty bad but he wasn’t really the problem last night.

      • ToddAlmighty

        Bases loaded and zero outs, you’re expected to score 2.26 runs.

        That means swinging into a GIDP in that situation is more harmful than a solo homerun is beneficial. It’s a difference of -1.26 runs. He could have just not swung, probably gotten walked, and scored just as many runs as his solo homerun did with a huge chance the guys behind him score more.

        Pitcher walks two of the three guys ahead of you and 4 of his last 5 pitches were balls. It’s 100% unacceptable to swing at anything until he throws you a strike. That should be Batting Law #1 or something.

      • lwblogger2

        I am ok with him swinging if it was HIS pitch. Bottom line last night though was that he swung at a pitcher’s pitch, when that pitcher was struggling to find the zone, and on a 1-0 count. One pitch one zone should have been the rule there and he failed at that

  2. ToddAlmighty

    2.57 ERA Beckett, 3.08 ERA Ryu, and 2.62 ERA Greinke are next. Haren was the easiest the Reds will see in this series.

  3. jcredlegs

    Ironically, Bryan Price forced Latos to make another rehab start so the bullpen wouldn’t get burnt up by a short start. How’d that work out? Seems like every decision this guy makes is the wrong one.

    • pinson343

      As Mat said: “Bogus.” And it wasn’t as if this were so unpredictable. Cingrani hasn’t gone more than 6 innings since April 13.

      In the meantime: “Latos pitched 4 2/3 innings and gave up one run and four hits with 82 pitches before showers halted his outing. According to Louisville’s radio broadcast, he threw 19 more pitches in the bullpen to reach his requisite 100 pitches mandated by the Reds before he might be activated.”

      He was throwing in the bullpen in the rain to get in the “requisite pitches” ? Worse than bogus, that’s lunacy.

      • Steve Mancuso

        Brantley said after the game that getting Latos to 100 pitches tonight was important for him to reach that point of arm fatigue so he can make that many pitches for the Reds. I trust Price and Brantley on this. Wasn’t in the rain, it was under the stadium.

      • pinson343

        Glad to hear that Mat didn’t get wet. I don’t feel much better. I understand the 100 pitch thing, was just venting.

      • John Walsh

        Point taken, but Cingrani hasn’t gotten them to 6 innings I don’t know how long. (Not a rhetorical usage… I really don’t know, but my hypothesis is not more than once, if that, over the last 30 days.)

        In that case, why not get Latos to 100 pitches with the big league club? Cingrani is blowing up the bullpen every five days already. I’m not trying to jump all over Bryan Price like others, but I don’t understand the logic either. It’s just a matter of geography where he did it.

      • jcredlegs

        That’s life under the Price regime. One nonsensical thing after another.

      • Steve Mancuso

        Right. Bryan Price doesn’t know how to manage a pitching staff.

      • Sparky

        Just about every player we depended on heading into this season to lead us on the field and off has either underperformed or missed lengthy time due to injury. I don’t see the Mgr. spot as the Reds issue.

    • ohiojimw

      Best wishes. I’m about three weeks out from some routine work on down the tract so to speak. Because I was in an afternoon slot, I got held overnight at the hospital. That turned out to be the night of the 15 inning game in DC or wherever it was. They actually had decent TV in the room; and, I laid there and watched the whole game which was great to be able to do.

    • sergeant2

      Wow! really. I hope your surgery goes well next Wednesday DOUBLENOHITTER. I think I can speak for all of Redleg Nation in saying that we hope all goes well with your surgery. Our thoughts and Prayers will be with you.

      • doublenohitter

        Thanks, Sarge. Please keep me in your prayers. They are removing a kidney stone that is too big to pass. Watching these Reds has been like passing a stone sometimes but I still love the Reds!

    • John Walsh

      I haven’t had one yet, but I’m guessing watching the Reds is more similar to a colonoscopy. For anything invasive, at least they give you drugs during and after.

      Maybe save some of the good stuff for the next month. You’re going to need it given our schedule.

    • lwblogger2

      Yikes!! That’s a pretty strong indictment against our beloved Reds… I hope all goes well for you next Wednesday and you have a speedy recovery.

  4. charlottencredsfan

    Would firing Price help any? Not saying they would do it but do you think it would help “fire” this club up? I’d just as soon get rid of the guy. I don’t think he has the skill set to lead this team. Sorry, have at me if you wish.

    • jcredlegs

      It certainly wouldn’t hurt my feelings if he were to be shown the door. I’ve been on record since day one saying he’s not the man for the job.

    • ohiojimw

      Fay is taking his usual line that he’d be surprised to see Price let go before the end of the season. I think somebody is going to pay the piper if this team doesn’t show better once Votto and Latos are back on aboard; and isn’t that just about always the manager?

      If Votto and Latos are back and in their typical roles by the end of the week, I think Price has to the AS break to show a clear improvement; if not they “make a change”.

      • WVRedlegs

        No way. you don’t send a man into battle with little to no ammunition and expect winning results. This isn’t the Tony Perez situation. To panic now, or at the AS break and dismiss the manager would only show just how in disarray this team and front office really is then.
        Jocketty is the problem, therefore Jocketty cannot be the solution. If anyone is fired It HAS to be Jocketty.

      • ohiojimw

        Unless somebody else goes down, when Votto and Latos are back the ammo clip will be as full as it was ever anticipated to be.

        Playing better over the next month doesn’t mean erasing the deficit they’ve played their way into. It means, to me at least, being several games over .500 for that interval between when Votto and Latos are back and the AS game.

        And I didn’t say it would be fair. I said I could see it happening.

      • preacherj

        This. Price’s weapon has been dangerously empty all season. No backup first baseman? ESPECIALLY when we were carrying 3 catchers on the roster? I don’t agree with a lot of what Price has done in game wise, but I don’t think it’s been fireable, if that’s a word.

      • WVRedlegs

        OHJim, I understand what you are saying. But I wouldn’t scapegoat Price. Somebody should be held accountable. And that is Jocketty. Even if Votto were to come back on a tear, this Reds offense isn’t very good as currently constructed. It is the inconsistent offense that prevents this team from reeling off a nice winning streak. The front office has their work cut out for them, if they want this team to contend. Once Votto returns, the LF and SS offensive contributions have to be addressed. A re-working of the bench is needed and a reliever to help out the bullpen might help.
        Getting Votto and Latos back does not fully replenish the ammo bunker. Jocketty needs to get busy to see that it is fully replenished.

    • Dale Pearl

      I am starting to agree. He is a fantastic pitching coach I give him that. But I don’t think he has what it takes to lead a team. OJT isn’t working out so well. Unfortunately if we let him go we lose his sage pitcher mentorship… so it kind of puts us in a catch 22 with him.

    • sergeant2

      If the Reds fired Price and hired Buck Showalter, I would dance naked under the St. Louis Gateway Arch. (well, not totally naked, I would wear my Redleg Nation hat)

    • Robby20

      Fire Price? No way that happens. The team has lots of holes. Had them last year and instead of filling hem they fired Baker. Too many automatic outs in the line-up. Reds score 2 tonight. What are the odds they win with 2 and Latos making his first start. Lots of things wrong with this team but it is way too early to lay this debacle on Price.

    • tct

      You would fire a guy who is in his first managerial job after 60 games? That’s crazy. The problem is not Price, the problem is talent. If everyone is healthy and producing at their usual levels then the reds should be a playoff team. The problem is they have no depth. When starters get injured or don’t produce like they normally do, the reds don’t have anyone to replace them with. For the third straight year the bench is horrible. They have only got one month of joey’s regular production and Bruce hasn’t produced at his expected level all year. Latos hasn’t started a game yet. They don’t have the backups to survive these things and that is not Price’s fault.

      • Grand Salami

        I thought I was the crazy one for thinking all this firing talk is way too premature. Glad to see I’m not the only one.

        Latos was their ace last year and he hasn’t pitched. The team MVP hasn’t playing in almost a month. The team is hovering within a few games of the .500 mark

        I think Price has been fine. Has he blown my socks off? No. He has made plenty of head scratchers but not he doesn’t have a paint by numbers template like our previous manager and that paradigm difference is more than enough to be an improvement.

    • greenmtred

      I won’t have at you, CharlotteNC, but my opinion is that it is too early to tell about him as a manager. It’s his first year, after all, and he’s had to deal with an unusual number of injuries to key players (and injuries are, indeed, a legitimate excuse). Also, it didn’t seem to me even before the season that the Reds were a shoo-in for anything. Add to that, I’ve never believed that the manager makes very much difference. The players are about as good as they are, and he has to play the guys he has available.

    • Drew

      So after less then 100 games you have decided Price can’t manage? This with not having his complete roster even once this season and having the base 8 a total of maybe 4-5 games played together? WOW…

  5. PXShaman

    Erik Karabell just said he would choose leake over beckett. I would agree, not from a fan perspective. But just someone who has seen him almost all of his starts.

  6. WVRedlegs

    The emotional investment in this team is taking a beating a rented mule shouldn’t have to take. You feel like the fans are Charlie Brown and the Reds are Lucy with the football. Just as you throw your heart in it even more again, Lucy asks you if you want to try to kick the ball again. And we jump at the chance to line it up. And well, we know what Lucy always ends up doing. Good grief Charlie Brown, fooled again.

    • pinson343

      Yep, I feel like a total blockhead.

  7. Josh Mohr

    Another blown game. Another bad decision on waiting to long to pull Cingrani.

    • pinson343

      Not just a blown game, a wasted game, wasted by a lack of urgency. Cingrani should not even have been starting tonight.

      • ohiojimw

        Makes a person wonder about who’s decision it was that Latos started in Pawtucket instead of Cincinnati tonight.

      • greenmtred

        You’re kidding, right? The guy hasn’t pitched all year and is rehabbing from surgery. Of course he starts for the Bats. I’m surprised he isn’t getting a few more starts down there.

      • Robby20

        Reds bats were not present again. Do you think Latos holds the Dodgers under in his first start in months?

      • pinson343

        This was not the Dodgers A lineup. With Latos the score may have been 3-2 instead of 6-2, and maybe Ludwick has a better AB with the bases loaded. A lot of maybes, but in any case I think a better chance to win the game.

      • Drew

        Okay then who starts? Sam Lecure? Latos wasn’t available, it was a smart move by the ORGANIZATION to have him go another start in the minors and get to 100 pitches.

    • ohiojimw

      I thought the last game was a coin toss decision; and, Price just happened to be unlucky. But especially after last time, it seemed to me like a person could see it coming tonight like the light at the end of tunnel being the headlight of the on coming locomotive.

  8. daytonnati

    Price signed a three-year deal, which keeps him on the payroll till the end of 2016. The Reds are still paying $3.5 mil to Dusty this season. Might as well cease with the firing Price talk. It ain’t gonna happen. At least, it ain’t gonna happen this season.

    • sezwhom

      Agreed. Fire Price then what? Not happening. The Pitching and Defense have been good but the offense, putrid. Where’s Brook Jacoby when you really need him?

  9. WVRedlegs

    I don’t know why, but since March 31, every day the calendar has said February 2 instead of the actual date.

    • pinson343

      The two best postgame comments. Well done.

  10. CP (@nomoresalads)

    Unless Walt get’s fired mid-season, Price isn’t going anywhere this year.

    You have a leadoff hitter with a 0.283 OBP, #3 and #4 hitters with a 92 and 82 wRC+, respectively, and, ugh, whatever turds they stick out in LF.

    Nobody is going to win with that.

    • ohiojimw

      Nobody is saying they should. But there is always the piper to be paid when a team has been sold as a contender and isn’t. Usually the guy that pays the piper is the field manager.

      • daytonnati

        Dale Pearl makes an excellent point. To a man, the pitching staff seems to revere Price. Heck, he even reached hard heads like Homer Bailey and Mat Latos. Since pitching is the heart of this team, I can’t see them making a move.

      • CP (@nomoresalads)

        Pretty sure several people are. 🙂

        Walt lost his shield when he fired Dusty. Bob’s an intelligent businessman, I’d be shocked if he let someone in Walt’s position fire a guy they just gave a 3 year deal to. One man built this team, he’s the only that would pay the piper. Bob would let his next GM decide what to do with Price.

        That said, I don’t think either gets fired midseason. Too many injuries to overcome, too many ready made excuses.

  11. Steve Mancuso

    It’s ridiculous to think of firing Byran Price. So little of this is his fault. You don’t even know if the decision to have Latos make another rehab start was his. I doubt it was. That’s the kind of thing a general manager decides. Even if Price did make the call, you can’t judge the worthiness of the decision based on the outcome.

    • ohiojimw

      Even if Price did make the call, you can’t judge the worthiness of the decision based on the outcome.

      If decisions are not judged based on outcome, then what are they judged upon?

      What’s happening with the Reds is a tragedy in the theatrical sense; and, the guy that goes down in these tragedies is the field manager, especially when he is a rookie and was brought in with the expectation of improving upon the record the Reds had compiled in the last 4 years. Fairness and fault will have little to nothing with what transpires if this team continues to tank.

      • Steve Mancuso

        You judge them on the process and what you knew before the decision was made, of course. Was it good to start Ludwick because of his past record against Haren? No. Relying on pitcher-hitter history data is stupid. It’s meaningless. But if you say, well Ludwick had a home run and a single, so the decision made sense, that’s judging based on the outcome.

      • Robby20

        The Reds were a team in a downward spiral at the end of last year. All the front office did was fire Baker, let Choo walk (no choice really), give the lead-off spot to an unproven rookie and hope other players would play better than they did in 2013.

        The Reds aren’t very good and that is not Price’s fault.

      • Reed Tom

        Your summation is right on. The lack of a true cleanup hitter has been a problem for quite a while since Votto is not a cleanup hitter. And the Reds knew that Choo was a one year rental. The front office did next to nothing in the offseason to address the offense. .This is a team with good pitching and and good defense but with an inconsistent offense. If change is made it should be in the front office.

      • pinson343

        Jim, there’s the difference between “first guessing” and second guessing. Disagreeing with Price about the Cingrani/Latos decision before the game is one thing. Deciding that you don’t like the decision afterwards is something else. (But I’m not putting everyone here in that boat.)

      • ohiojimw

        The thing I was truly galled about was that Cingrani was left in to give the game away on the 3 run jack. I thought it was pretty hard not to see that one coming, When I saw Pico coming out to the mound to talk to Cingrani instead of Price coming to get him, I figured it was game set and match to the Dodgers.

      • greenmtred

        The Reds’ record the last 4 years isn’t bad, considering the players they’ve had (not blaming WJ, either–we’ve had the discussion, and he can’t replace players without giving up other players. Rebuilding takes awhile if it’s to be effective).

      • Drew

        My NBA Pacers fell apart and were an embarassement in the playoffs and yet our Coach is sticking around. This is not a “tragedy” in Cincy, it’s a team who made some changes in the offseason in mag’t which takes time to adjust to and has played the first portion of the season with out it’s full healthy roster. Why are we making thi out like it’s something horrible and tragic when it’s not.

      • ohiojimw

        I said it was a tragedy in a theatrical sense, meaning a sad ending and somebody “dying” or in this case losing their job.

        Over the last couple of weeks I’ve wondered if there was some way out of this with Price being spared. The only way I see it going down that way is if they win enough games from here on to make these first two months look like and feel like a bad dream that lasted a little too long to recover from but which does not destroy the hope for 2015.

        If this team ends up with fewer than 75 wins, Price is likely gone. I count 32 games to the AS break. If they don’t win more that 12-14 of them, I suspect the ax will fall at the break.

    • pinson343

      Price had the job of defending the decision to have Latos make another rehab start, so in people’s mind the decision was his. But either way the reason he gave – to not tax the bullpen – is infuriating, if you look at Cingrani’s record since mid-April. And that record was well established before tonight’s outcome.
      As Mat said: “Bogus.”

      Yes the firing talk is silly.

    • John Walsh

      Price isn’t above reproach. I like him. I think he’s made good decisions. He’s also had some real head scratchers (a few even more so than Dusty).

      I think he’s done decently with what he has. But I expect him to continue to grow. This 50/50 good decision, bad decision split won’t get it done next year or the year after.

      In my mind, what separates him from Dusty is primarily his ability to grow and grow into the role. But there have been bumps and he’s not above reproach.

  12. Steve Mancuso

    Anyone still think Billy Hamilton should continue to lead off when Votto gets back? He’s hitting .247/.283/.347.

    I’m not putting the blame for the offensive struggles entirely on him. It’s just as bad continuing to have Brandon Phillips hitting third when there is such little chance he’s going to do any better than he is now. Left field is a disaster. That’s entirely on the GM. Jay Bruce isn’t hitting, but there’s too much of a track record there to worry about him.

    But why is Billy Hamilton, a totally unproven rookie, be the one sacred cow who can’t be moved or given some legitimate competition? Just move him down in the lineup, if you think he should keep playing every game.

    • jcredlegs

      Billy Hamilton is not the problem.

      • CP (@nomoresalads)

        Yes, he’s been fantastic. /s

      • jcredlegs

        I didn’t say that. I just said he’s not the problem here. Bruce hitting .200, the clowns in LF, bad field manager. Those are the things that need to be fixed.

      • Steve Mancuso

        It’s not either-or. They all need to get better, including the lead off spot. That’s what I said. In fact, I specifically said that.

    • daytonnati

      I think it is the dearth of talent. I think Hamilton continues at lead-off because there are no alternatives. The Votto idea might make sense if he had more speed. With him leading off, the Reds would still be playing station to station to get him home. Since they can’t score with the bases loaded and no outs, I doubt they can move a walked Votto from first to second to third to home. At least with Hamilton, you get that occasional glimpse of “what could be.” Walk or bunt single, steal of second, hurried throw, and on to third, maybe even home. For this year’s Reds, it is actually more realistic than moving him around via hitting.

      • Steve Mancuso

        It makes no sense to value speed in the leadoff hitter. He’s followed presumably by a bunch of guys who can hit doubles, triples and home runs. Speed is more important for someone batting seventh, because of the weak hitters who follow him. Get on base so that Frazier’s solo home run is a two-run homer. Hamilton had a chance to drive in runs tonight with a hit and grounded into a double play. Get your best hitter (who isn’t your best slugger) in the leadoff spot where he gets the most at bats.

      • greenmtred

        I take your point, Steve, but in the Reds’ case, the guys batting behind BH generally don’t get those nice extra-base hits. Don’t drive in runs, in other words. He (Billy) has a lot of developing to do, of course, and isn’t an ideal lead-off hitter at this point (Henry Aaron, anyone? Rickey Henderson?), but he is, with the sometime exceptions of Mes and Todd, the only guy in the lineup who’s fun to watch.

    • Dale Pearl

      I actually agree with you here. Billy and brandon both need to drop in the order. The only thing about where votto bats in the order…. Need a guy behind him with a high flyball to grounder ratio… Maybe Frazier in the two hole?

    • Drew

      You leave him there and let him learn. Does anyone, even with the team 100% healthy really think this is a WS contender this year? It’s not, so let Hamilton stay at leadoff and learn.

      • al

        Learn what? How to hit? Can’t he learn that anywhere in the lineup?

    • al

      I don’t think he ever should have been leading off. Speed at the top of the order doesn’t make sense.

      • charlottencredsfan

        145 years of baseball wisdom down the tubes

    • lwblogger2

      I agree with you on BH and the leadoff spot Steve… I’m not sure I agree on Bruce. Jay Bruce is my favorite player, so I’m not bashing on the guy, I promise. That disclaimer aside, I am very, very worried about him. He not only isn’t hitting but he flat out looks awful at the plate. He also doesn’t have his usual range in the field. He says he feels great but that’s not what I’m seeing. I’m quite worried about Bruce this year and am hoping that he doesn’t have a lingering injury or something that’s gone wonky with his approach and hitting mechanics since the injury. I’m sure Mr. Long is looking at this stuff but this feels like more than a Jay Bruce cold streak to me. It looks like there’s something wrong with my guy.

    • Vicferrari

      Just curious where do his numbers… any of them compare with all of baseball, outisde of stolen bases? I would suspect they are near the bottom. I have been on board with batting him 9th all season long.
      I would be all over batting Phillips lower too but there just are not too many good hitters, I like Mes 5 or 6 more that he seems more comfortable there.
      But if Votto does not lead off I really have no other candidates, and he proabably is best suited for 2nd- then I go back to that line-ups are not that imnportant and then remember this is just an awful offensive team

  13. pinson343

    Ludwick’s bases loaded AB was beyond ugly, it ummm, indicated a lack of mental presence. I’ve given him a lot of support here, ever since he’s been with the Reds. How can you swing at a 1-0 pitch in that situation, unless it’s right down Broadway …

    And it’s a pitch that’s so low the best he can do is take a half swing to tap it into the ground, as if he were trying for the 1-2-3.

    • Steve Mancuso

      Brantley said the same thing. Bad swing by Ludwick. Ludwick is obviously trying to make up for a bunch of frustration all at once. But the Reds don’t really have an obvious replacement. Heisey and Schumaker haven’t done anything this year, either. Just a terrible calculation by the general manager that the OF situation was going to be OK with Ludwick and Hamilton.

      • jcredlegs

        It is completely unreasonable that Donald Lutz hasn’t been given a shot in LF. Can’t be any worse.

      • greenmtred

        I say again, it COULD be worse. Have you been watching his at-bats?

      • charlottencredsfan

        Yes I have probably seen every one. Fundamentally he looks like he has potential. Most of his ABs are not half bad. His timing is not the greatest but starting once a week or so, that is to be expected. Looks like he swings the bat with authority; I’d give the kid some consecutive starts to see what he has. We already know what we have in Ludwick, Heisey, Schu, and Bernadina; and it isn’t very much. His line drive rate is 25%, Heisey’s in 20.5, Ludwick 21.5. Lord knows, I wish we had better options; however, we don’t. Hey, at least he is relatively young so he has that going for him.

      • pinson343

        I agree with all of that, especially about the GM. Ludwick was not thinking the way he should have been. Instead he was thinking: Grand Slam home run, like a AAA callup trying to be the hero.

      • Robby20

        Comical to read Price taking the heat for this debacle created by the GM. The Reds have overrated their starting eight for the last couple years and have done little to address the offense and specifically the need for a power hitting right handed hitter. With Votto seemingly no longer a power threat the need for more thump in the line-up becomes even more important. Lots of miscalculations by the GM.

  14. Steve Mancuso

    After the game, Brantley didn’t seem sold on the idea of moving Cingrani to the bullpen, although he did say it depended on which set of coaches would be best to work with Cingrani, the Reds or Louisville. He thought it was important for Cingrani to get his innings count up looking ahead to 2015 and that being in the bullpen for any length of time would make that difficult. So he seemed to be favoring sending Cingrani to the Bats for a while.

    It’s not realistic to expect Alfredo Simon’s arm to hold up all year. Cingrani is going to have to rejoin the rotation at some point. He’s young. You can’t give up on him. He’s still just developing.

    • Dale Pearl

      I agree on this one too. Cingrani has huge upside. If this year is determined to be a rebuilding year you leave the guy in the rotation. Makes simon a great trade piece since his value will never be higher right?

    • Drew

      Cingrani HAS to go to AAA. A move to the pen would be bad and not what a pitcher at his point in his career and for his future he needs to pitch every fifth day and get daily coaching on development of other pitches. That can only be done in AAA.

    • lwblogger2

      Also, how is he supposed to work on his secondary offerings out of the pen and perhaps often in high-leverage situations? Relievers also don’t get to throw bullpens where they can work on different stuff like starters can. I agree with Brantley that the best place for Cingrani is going to be L’ville. Send him down and tell him that this isn’t because you’ve lost faith in him. Tell him what he needs to work on and that he’ll likely be up with the big club again at some point this year.

      • charlottencredsfan

        If we want to develop him as a solid MLB starting pitcher, I don’t see an option. TC strikes me as the kind of guy that will work like a dog to achieve his goals. I remain very, very high on the young man. Like the cut of his jib.

  15. pinson343

    I think Cingrani is going to the Bats and continue to start. Price actually hinted at this a couple of days ago. When asked who was going to the bullpen, Simon or Cingrani, he replied of course that the decision hasn’t been made but added that it should not be assumed that they’d both still be on the major league roster.

    Having Cingrani continue to start at AAA makes sense for a number of reasons. He needs to figure things out as later in the season he’ll be needed to replace Simon in the starting rotation.

  16. I-71_Exile

    This board has become a shadow of what it used to be. There was once thoughtful discourse backed up by numbers. Now we get “Fire Price”? Really? Come on. He’s not what’s wrong with the Reds.

    Thanks for keeping the faith, Steve.

    • al

      I agree. The discussion seems so emotional and knee-jerk. Remember when fangraphs, before the season, based on nothing but projected stats, had the Reds finishing under .500?

      I’m not saying projection systems are the be-all, end-all, but clearly there was reason to doubt this team’s talent coming into the year. Now it looks like that projection is pretty accurate, and people are talking about firing the manager? How does that make any sense?

      Just because you want the Reds to be talented, doesn’t mean they are. We have a lot of easy outs in the lineup, and the bullpen has been exposed this year more than it has the last two. The Reds problem is talent, not the manager.

  17. John Walsh

    Honest question. Why isn’t anyone talking to these guys to change their approach? Price? Long? Jocketty? Votto? ANYONE?

    The refrain was always “once they’re major leaguers, the cake is baked and their approach is set”.

    Has Frazier not changed his approach this year? Is he not more selective at the plate? Is it not paying dividends?

    I can deal with a slump. What I can’t forgive is this haphazard approach at the plate. Why is no one addressing this? I’m tired of no one addressing this. It’s the very definition of insanity.

  18. pinson343

    Paging Mr. Votto, paging Mr. Votto.

  19. Dale Pearl

    To many holes, lack of team as a whole to score, dependance on youngsters to mature over night… All is adding up to this needing to be a rebuilding year instead of realistically thinking we can win a world series this year

    • Drew

      What are we to rebuild. First/3rd/CF and RF along with Catcher is set for at least the next 5+ seasons. Pitching staff is pretty set. So that leaves basically 2nd and SS and LF. I don’t see that being a “rebuild” but finding better pieces. I can live with Cozart if the other’s hit. Phillips is aging but can still proudce. LF is the HUGE question, problem is “how” do you go about fixiging it.

  20. Dale Pearl

    If the reds make one move what should it be? Ditching ludwick or marshall for a proven bat if that were possible?

    • brmreturns

      The problem with ditching ludwick or marshall for a “proven bat”, is that the proven bat would likely belong to Willy Taveras. You’re not going to get much else for BOTH, let alone either one by themselves. The players that should “go” won’t/wouldn’t generate a worth-while return.

      With SP being the strength of the team (organization as a whole, really), that is where the Reds would need to trade from. If the belief is that the Reds can not afford to re-sign all 3 of Cueto, Latos, and Leake, then it makes perfect sense to trade one before the deadline. Latos is out of the question on the market, because he has not pitched this year and the return would be below his true value. Johnny, Mike, and Alfredo will never have a higher value than current.

      The haul that the Reds could receive from a contender for Johnny C may be immense. Not that I want to see him gone, at all. Ever. The Reds would HAVE to listen to all offers…. on everyone.

    • Drew

      Why do people continue to beat this “get us a bat” drum. Exactly whom do you want the Reds to get and what leads you to believe that there is this mystical bat out there to be had and that the Reds have the trade material to get said bat. People need to wake up and see for this year this is the team we have, and hopefully overall they can do well, but if not then maybe in the offseason Walt can do soemthing.

      • Dale Pearl

        Because it is fun to dream we have a great offense. I know it wont happen but the dream is alive

      • Drew

        I don’t, but I think there is a greater chance of something happening in the offseason then during the season.

      • lwblogger2

        Not only a better chance of something happening in the offseason as opposed to during the season but I really think Walt will be the first change of the offseason. He won’t be here if things continue.

  21. doublenohitter

    Don’t look now but the Houston Astros have won 7 of 10. They don’t have a better record than the reds but are playing better ball. With another starter or two, they could make a run. They certainly play harder and are more exciting than the reds.

    • lwblogger2

      Astros are fun to watch. I’ve caught 3 of their games this year and that’s actually a decent team.

  22. lwblogger2

    Second straight start for Cingrani where things seemed to be going alright for him and then it all fell apart in 3 batters. Last time it was HR, single, HR. This time it was BB, BB, HR. The higher walk rate is what is killing him this year. That and the fact that he just doesn’t have the secondary pitches right now.

  23. HalMorrisShimmySwing

    I think it would nearly impossible to get a bat for one, or even both, of those two. I think a bat is only obtained by trading Cueto, Latos, or maybe even Simon. I don’t know if that is the best decision, but it is realistic. I would rather look toward 2015 and get some high grade AAA prospects to refill the pool rather than get this year’s version of Ludwick (2012) or Marlon Byrd.

  24. AnnapolisHoosier

    In about three years the Astros are going to be way past the Reds.

  25. Matt WI

    Even with Ludwick’s homer last night… I think I heard them say on ESPN is was a fastball in the high 80’s… which I feel is about the extent of his bat speed right now. So, good to see him hit, but I don’t feel like it was particularly a sign of change.

    • WVRedlegs

      Ludwick’s HR would have been a fly out on the warning track at 13 other NL stadiums. Matt is right, it isn’t particularly a sign of change. It was a fat pitch, belt high out over the middle of the plate.

  26. sultanofswaff

    I found it curious that Price was kidding Chapman about how his new 3 pitch arsenal is ‘starting pitcher ready’ in the Enquirer article yesterday. I mean, I thought Chappy was too sensitive to those suggestions, no? Maybe Price is using some Jedi mind tricks on the guy. Regardless, I bet if everyone around here sat down and wrote out the top 5 starting pitchers in the Reds system, this current version of Chapman would make the list with ease……and we’d likely have the best rotation in baseball. At this point in the season, we literally have nothing to lose and everything to gain to use him as a starter. Any Reds team with Alfredo Simon in the rotation is one that places egos first, and that’s this organization in a nutshell. We’d finally maximize Chapman’s value and give ourselves the best chance at getting back in this division race, keep his innings pitched manageable, and settle the issue of whether he can start once and for all. Heck, it would even have a psychological effect on the team/fans by changing the narrative away from the horrible offense and injuries. Broxton closes, Cingrani to Louisville, Simon to the bullpen.

    (And spare me the ‘that ship has sailed’ talk please. I need to vent)

    • Drew

      So you totally discount the feelings of the player? Chapman has said he prefers closing. Why would you place a player into a position he is uncomfortable with and knowing it might not make that big of a difference overall this season.

      • ToddAlmighty

        I’m sure Hamilton preferred playing shortstop, but he could contribute more to the team as an OF. I’m sure Heisey wants to start, but he has more value as a 4th OF and backup to all three spots. Brandon Phillips likes to hit 4th in the lineup, but he is only slugging .395 so instead in order to try to not hurt his feelings they’re batting him 3rd and it’s still not good for the team.

        If the Cardinals let people play where they wanted, their infield would look entirely different and they’d have 9-10 starting pitchers on their 25 man roster because their entire bullpen wants to be starters.

        Team Needs > Player Feelings is how it should be, but it’s not on this team.

      • charlottencredsfan

        +1. There should be two concerns: how do we win games and get better. Anything else is counter-productive and pointless.

        I saw where Rickie Weeks was unwilling to move from 2nd base to the OF, I have lost total respect for the guy. That is a clear case of putting self before team. I can live without those type of players.

      • Drew

        IF a player is open to changing postions then go for it, and if there was a HUGE lack of talent at a spot then okay, but with the Reds there isn’t a HUGE lack of talent in the SP area and Chapman has clearly stated he doesn’t want to start. This is where the “human” factor plays a huge role and throws stat geeks for a loop. Sometimes you have to do something that maybe the numbers say otherwise.

      • charlottencredsfan

        Drew, bottom line if the club believes it is for the best, so be it. It will have zero to do with how you and I analyze the team.

    • Steve Mancuso

      Chapman would be at the top of my list, easily.

      • charlottencredsfan

        Mine too. If Price would be willing to take the “risk”, I might get back in his camp. The skipper needs to taking some unique steps to try to improve the team. This could also mean JV leading off. Not sod on it but what could it really hurt to try?

        Unless he is willing to mix it up, in order to improve the team he has, I believe he will have a very short career as a MLB manager

  27. Ryan Lykins (@ryan_lykins)

    If Walt doesn’t make any kind of move this season and try to help the team via trade or something I don’t see how realistically he can be brought back. I’m sure he’s trying and has tried and the farm system is a little bare but he’s gotta be able to come up with something right? That’s what he gets paid to do. I am hopeful he can find something. Even so I do feel like the Reds need a changing of the guard with the GM position. Somebody with some fresh ideas. Jocketty has had a good run but they’re kind of at a stand still now. Maybe a new GM that’s a little more apt to look at new statistics and isn’t afraid to try new things or hurt feelings.

    • al

      I don’t disagree that a new approach would be welcome in the front office.

      That said, I think the problem with this year is that ownership convinced everyone that because we’re spending money, this was a year we could win the WS. I was warning people this winter that this looked a lot like a rebuilding year to me.

      What I was advocating was trading Bailey instead of signing him long-term. Clearly loosing Bailey would have hurt our chances this year, but does that look like it matters now? Bailey could have gotten us at least one or two good prospects that could have come up next year with Stephenson, and then maybe we’re right back on track.

      Now it looks like this year AND next year will be rebuilding because we decided to go for it with a team that probably never had much of a shot.

      • Drew

        I don’t think it’s fair to judge this season so far given the health issues. How many games has this team played at full strength in both pitching and position players. I think if everyone is healthy we are in the race, however as in any sports injuires happen and it will expose your depth.

      • al

        To expect to play a full season with everyone healthy is a fantasy. Hamilton, Cozart, Ludwick, Santiago, Bernadina, Soto, Heisey… These guys have been healthy all year. The problem is that they stink.

      • Drew

        Iam unsure how you can say Hamilton stinks. I am more then pleased at how this rookie who moved positions just last year has done so far this season. What were your expectations for him? As for Cozart, yes his is not what it was even last year, but give me a good defensive SS and I will live with a lack of a bat there. Heisey is what Heisey is and I wouldn’t call it stanky. As for th eothers they have disappointed, no question but one is now in AAA and the other are seldmom used bench players. Look around the league most teams have questionable players on their bench.

      • al

        Our definition of stinks is just different.

        Hamilton has an OBP of .287. That stinks.

        Cozart has on OBP of .257. That stinks.

        Heisey has an OBP of .294, which more or less stinks.

        Ludwick has actually been about average (.318), but he stinks at everything else.

        Yes some of those guys are good defenders, and that’s nice. But a team of terrible OBPs (aka automatic outs) that plays good defense is hardly a world series contender. You say you can live with it, and that’s fair, but that formula isn’t going to bring any championships to Cincy.

  28. Drew

    I am sure there are deals to be made, the question is what are you willing to part with? I am sure if he offers up Latos and Cueto he could secure a decent return, but then who fills the shoes of Latos and Cueto. Or he could offer up Devin and say Leake for a fair return, again what do the Reds do to replace those players. Trading away players just means other holes to fill, so what are you willing to lose?

      • Drew

        Problem is it appears Bob likes Walt, and as long as that is in place Walt is here. I think Walt overall has done a good job, I think some of the higher end contracts were not of his doing but came from Bob. I also think he takes way to much greif for trades not made. We have no idea of what moves he tried to make or wasn’t able to make due to contract size and such. Right now the only “issue” with this team I see is the blackhole of LF, and I am sure if presented with a good deal Walt would do it, but how many good LF are on the market and what would it cost the Reds.

  29. al

    Our offense has three players (including Votto) that are hitting better than average. Everyone else is below, and most are way below. We’ve scored the second fewest runs in all MLB. We have the third worst OBP in baseball. This is the problem.

    • Drew

      Well of those not hitting we all agree LF is a black hole, Bruce is a streaky hitter coming off surgery and CF is a rooking learning the game. SS is what it is, his defense makes up for it. That leaves 2nd base, it is a concern but not something we can do anything about at this point. I think Brandon when the season is done will have decent numbers.

      • charlottencredsfan

        For the most part I’m buying this; however, LF is not the place to have near zero offensive production. Arguably, other than 1b, it should be the most productive spot on the field. If Chapman “was” moved to the rotation, than we would have a definite surplus of starting pitchers and we should be able to deal from that strength. Especially if the Farm System’s greatest potential asset is more of the same.

        I don’t think that a healthy Votto & Bruce will be enough and I’m not prepared to even take that as a given.

        Al and I differ on the particulars but we agree that this team just doesn’t hit enough to compete.

      • Drew

        Moving Chapman to the SP spot doesn’t mean he will be successful. Are you willing to risk that move, alson knowing there is better then good chance he leaves when his contract is up and deal either Latos/Leake/Cueto along with another player(s) for a left fielder?

        Why does it have to be just Votto and Bruce? Frazier is having a nice season and is probably only going to get better. We are seeing Devin progress as a player. that gives you 4 good bats in the lineup right there. Hamilton should continue to improve his plate skills and provide the Reds with a quality Leadoff hitter. So there is 5 out of the 8 hitters.

      • charlottencredsfan

        Agree about Frazier, Mes and Billy, completely. Can the team afford to stay pat and ride it out, that is the question. IMO, it is looking more and more like it can’t. Also, I haven’t given up on Cozart either but I wish Price would sit him for a series to collect himself. I can not believe he is going to be as bad a player as we have seen so far in 2014.

        No one knows if Chapman will be a success as a starter but I believe it is worth it to try.

        Bottom line is we need more fellows that can play at this level.

      • doublenohitter

        I agree with you. The Reds weren’t winning when Votto was playing, Why would we think things would change when he comes back?

    • lwblogger2

      Yep… There were complaints in years past that Reds offenses were bad or were “feast or famine” at best. My study should have put those debates to rest. This year however, there is no defending the offense. It is plain bad.

  30. lwblogger2

    Hey, just an off-topic question… Are any of my fellow RLN participants going to be taking in the Reds/Dodgers game tomorrow from the CBTS pavilion? I took a handful over the past few years from there and this is my first this year. I’m on my own tomorrow as they didn’t have an extra game-only ticket for me to bring someone and I was wondering if any other RLN folks would be there.

  31. WVRedlegs

    The market for a 2B is heating up. Maybe there is a market for BP heating up too. The same teams looking for a 2B over the winter are still looking, as the fixes they put in place didn’t work out.
    1. Toronto needs a 2B badly. Getz hitting .160 and Goins .150. Have their 3B playing there now and Juan Francisco at 3B.
    2. Washington. Espinosa hitting .228.
    3. NYY. Roberts hitting .239 and Kelly Johnson .216.
    4. Baltimore. Schoop hitting .223 and Flaherty .221.
    5. SF. Giants need a 2B.
    6. Atlanta. Uggla hitting .169 and benched. Rookie LaStella hitting .364 but only in 10 games.
    7. Miami. Dietrich is hitting. 246.

    As for Jocketty doing his job, there was a LF option out there he passed vigorously on because he didn’t want to give up the Reds first round pick in the just concluded draft. With what the Reds spent that pick on, a pick that would have still been on the board at #29, it would have been well worth it to have signed that free agent and thus forfeited the #19 pick.
    Nelson Cruz so far in 2014: 303/.374/.636 in 231 AB, 21 HR, 55 RBI, 42 R. Those numbers might have helped the worst offense in MLB. That is Jocketty doing his job!!

    • charlottencredsfan

      Great research. I think there is a home for BP out there as well. Still some tread on those tires. I love BP but if they could get out from underneath his contract, it would help. Any prospects we would receive, is gravy.

      As far as Cruz, I have to believe it is more about dollars then anything else but who knows. It is a real issue when you have a lousy team with a relatively high payroll. In Cincinnati’s market size, those two do not work well together.

      • WVRedlegs

        I should have started that out about Cruz with “With my 20/20 hindsight glasses on…”

    • Drew

      So you give up a first round pick for a one year rental?

  32. Eric the Red

    Just watched the game. I won’t dignify the “fire Price” stuff with a comment, or repeat what others have written. So here is a completely new topic:

    I hope that at some point in the next few days the game situation allows us to teach Dee Gordon some respect for the game. Stealing up 4 in the 9th is maybe acceptable. Going on a 2-0 pitch with a guy who has control issues on the mound, then refusing to leave the bag while trying to get his manager to challenge, then seemingly questioning the manager in the dugout, shows what Gordon was really doing: padding his stats. I hope he finds himself brushed back at the very least, and I hope Hamilton starts getting on base more often so he can keep Gordon from winning the stolen base crown.

  33. Eric the Red

    Oh, another thing: I’d really like to see them tell Heisey “the job is yours at least until the All Star game”. He has more power and a quicker bat than Ludwick, is faster and is way better defensively, and contrary to popular perception performed well in Spring 2012 in his most consistent period of starting. (I don’t remember the exact numbers, but IIRC May 2012 saw him get the most starts of his career in a given month and he hit over .300)

    • al

      I’m not arguing that Heisey may be a better option than Ludwick (by at least a little), but haven’t they given Heisey the job on several occasions only to see him underperform.

      • Eric the Red

        No, Al, they haven’t. He got hurt last year right after Ludwick went out. He gets a couple of days here and there–usually rotating through outfield spots–and then sits down. Even in Spring 2012 he was “competing” with Ludwick, and Ludwick happened to hot up–after we moved into an easier part of the schedule–and got the full time job.

        If I’m not mistaken, Heisey hasn’t started more than 15 games in any month.

      • ToddAlmighty

        Since 2012…

        In May 2012 Heisey had 18 complete games and hit .321/.346/.436. His next highest month with the most complete games was June 2012 when he had 16 complete games and hit .228/.265/.316. Then his next highest was September 2012 and July 2013 he played in 12 complete games in both those months and hit .182/.297/.291 and .281/.344/.544, respectively.

        Those are a month’s total hitting, not just games starting in that month. So included in those slash lines are when he pinch hit, or started and only played 6-7 innings, or came into the game in the 6th inning in a double switch or something. Not entirely what would be the most telling, but too lazy to narrow the search further.

  34. Ryan Lykins (@ryan_lykins)

    It’s all about the organizational philosophy on hitting which I’m not even sure if there is one. This is part of why I feel they need a new gm. Someone to implement a philosophy and stick with it. Preferably that philosophy would be taking more pitches and being patient at the plate. The way things are going with players swinging at everything and swinging at the first pitch or at crappy pitches in terrible situations (ludwick) isn’t working at all and really hasn’t been the best approach in recent years. I almost feel the Reds have won in spite of their plate approaches. When prospects are coming up and just swinging away at everything I really question what they’ve been taught.

  35. ToddAlmighty

    I don’t know if I feel Price should be fired, but I do feel Walt needs fired, and the new GM will probably want to bring his own guys in… we saw what happens when the Coach isn’t the GM’s guy (Walt and Dusty) and they were never really working together for the good of the team.

    So while I don’t know if Price SHOULD be fired, I don’t know if he’ll be the manager of the team next year because a GM change is needed.

  36. Drew

    Unless there is a total coloapse of the Reds, I just don’t see Bob letting Walt go. Walt comes from the Cardinal background which Bob did and likes and I think overall Bob is pleased with the Job Walt has done.

    • ToddAlmighty

      I don’t know, I think if the team’s not winning, Bob isn’t liking anyone. I still recall the game in Pittsburgh last season and the look Bob had on his face. That was the “I am angry when my team loses and steps will be taken.” look. If this team finishes with a losing record, bank on Walt not being asked to stay with the organization. Even if they have a winning record but they don’t make the playoffs, I think there’s still a strong chance that happens. Bob is a fan, like us.. only difference being rather than the $10-25 we pay for a game ticket, he pays $120m for season tickets.

  37. Drew

    Difference is this year the team up to this point hasn’t been whole. Add to that rookies playing in two key positions of C and CF a new manager I believe Bob will look at this season differently then last when there wasn’t all those other issues.

    • ToddAlmighty

      Mesoraco isn’t a rookie. He has over 2 years of service in, and is arbitration eligible next year.

      • Drew

        He may not be “classified” as a rookie, but come on exactly how much “playing” time has he seen consistantly over those previous years. HE is now the man and basically in his first full season of that,sorry but I view him as a rookie.

      • ToddAlmighty

        Before this year? 1,325 innings played in the majors, divided by nine would be the equivalent of 147 full games, or more games than almost any catcher will play in a single year. Not a rookie.

      • ToddAlmighty

        Put in better context, Molina has never caught more than 1,176.2 innings in a year and he’s pretty much the closest thing to an every single day catcher.