Good morning everyone! Welcome to trade day!

The Reds have been linked to everyone. Names mentioned in connection with them include. Matt Garza, Juan Pierre, Denard Span, Shane Victorino, Shin-Soo Choo, and even Jacoby Ellsbury for about 30 seconds.

Who knows if the Reds will make a trade, but I’ll stop in with updates and hang out in the comments section as much as possible.

Let us know what you’re hearing and what you think.

Update 1: As many of you are aware, the Reds and Phillies have broken off talks. Given that, I wouldn’t be surprised to see the Reds stand-pat. The Phillies seemed to be the team most commonly linked with them in trade talks.

Update 2: You know, I thought I might have missed something as I was just away from the internet for a few hours. Not so much. Not much time left now if the Reds are going to do something.

Update 3: I’ve had a minute to get my bearings now, and there are reports that Span is still a possibility. I like Span. I like that he’s left handed. Don’t know that he’s a big enough upgrade to mess with.

Update 4: John Fay cites a source from the Reds downplaying the Span talk.

Update 5: Mark Sheldon reports Drew Stubbs is not in the lineup tonight versus the Padres. Given his recent tear, I can’t imagine Dusty not playing him unless he was told a trade is a possibility. Additionally, it would be very Dusty to send the guy out there as a way to reassure him that he is not going anywhere. This is very interesting.

Update 6: Regarding Denard Span – Fellow editor Steve Mancuso requested an xBABIP report, so I went right to it. Span has been a touch unlucky this season (his BABIP is 12 points lower than it should be). Correspondingly, you can comfortably add 20 or 30 points to his OPS if you like. Stubbs, you’ll remember has been very, very unlucky and you can also add 70 or so points to his OPS. Do with that information what you will.

Update 7: A Twins source hints that Span will be staying put.

Update 8: Ken Rosenthal says the Reds are in on Jonathan Broxton. Why would they be interested when the bullpen is already so good? I have no idea.

Update 9: The Reds have acquired Jonathan Broxton. This has to be a prelude to something else, doesn’t it? I’ll post as soon  as I know what they gave up.

Update 10: JC Sulburban, at least, seems to be headed to KC. Not sure if anyone else is one the way. Mark Redmond is also in the Reds clubhouse (as is Drew Stubbs, FWIW). We’ll keep you posted. Also, enormous traffic right now. Our apologies. If you have trouble getting to the site try again in a few minutes.

Update 11: Royals will reportedly get “a couple of minor leaguers.” So, no one off the big club, which makes Redmond’s presence there odd, wouldn’t you say?

Update 12: Donnie Joseph is also on his way to KC. This is a weird trade. the deadline has passed now, but there may be some news trickling in over the next hour or so.

Update 13: Bray is going to the DL. Redmond has been called up to take his spot. I’m not sure how this works with Broxton who, I would assume, is also on the 25-man.

286 Responses

  1. rfay00

    Anyone wanna bet against the Reds standing pat?

    • AnnapolisHoosier

      Anyone wanna bet against the Reds standing pat?

      I do. I think they will do something. I don’t trust anything said right now until a deal is announced. Just because the Reds and Phils have “broken off” talks doesn’t mean they can’t start back up again in an hour.

      • Racine Red

        I do. I think they will do something.I don’t trust anything said right now until a deal is announced. Just because the Reds and Phils have “broken off” talks doesn’t mean they can’t start back up again in an hour.

        Exactly correct. Everyone is playing possum, and using the media to their advantage also.

  2. alekccincy

    Would love to see this Garza deal get done (it seems like he’s okay after a bullpen session with no issues). If the Reds are only going to make 1 deal, it makes sense to go after a top of rotation guy for the playoff run. This team will make it to October whether they deal or not, so in that case improving your prospects in October should be priority.

    • Racine Red

      Would love to see this Garza deal get done (it seems like he’s okay after a bullpen session with no issues). If the Reds are only going to make 1 deal, it makes sense to go after a top of rotation guy for the playoff run. This team will make it to October whether they deal or not, so in that case improving your prospects in October should be priority.

      Here’s the problem with Garza. The Reds’ ERA+’s are:
      175, 118, 111, 100, 94.

      It’s not easy to get a good bang for the buck given that. Garza is at 102, with a career ERA+ of 108. In other words, he’s pitching within his normal range. Why should the Reds give up a lot for a guy who’s similar to the guys they already have?

      • Racine Red

        Good point, with data to back it up. I’ll take a stab (and remember, the Garza stuff is all speculation at this point). Maybe the Reds like Garza’s playoff experience. He’s started five playoff games. Maybe they see that as worth something. I’m not defending a Garza trade until I see the other side of it. But Garza is clearly a major upgrade over Mike Leake.

        I think that not only is he an upgrade over Leake, but he’s an upgrade in the playoffs, as you say, because he strikes people out. I’m not crazy about finesse pitchers in the postseason (and neither is Nate Silver, who wrote about this many years ago). What I’m saying is that IF they go 4-man in the postseason, and IF Garza replaces Arroyo, that makes it more viable for me.

        The problem is that on the other end, you have Theo Epstein, who’s going to demand a high return. I wouldn’t pay high return for the above.

      • AnnapolisHoosier

        I think that not only is he an upgrade over Leake, but he’s an upgrade in the playoffs, as you say, because he strikes people out.I’m not crazy about finesse pitchers in the postseason (and neither is Nate Silver, who wrote about this many years ago).What I’m saying is that IF they go 4-man in the postseason, and IF Garza replaces Arroyo, that makes it more viable for me.

        The problem is that on the other end, you have Theo Epstein, who’s going to demand a high return.I wouldn’t pay high return for the above.

        Agreed. I don’t like Leake or Arroyo in the playoffs.

      • AnnapolisHoosier

        What he said.

        Like I said in the other thread, whatever you think about ranking our pitchers 1-5, Dusty Baker WILL start Bronson Arroyo in a playoff game. Whoever we trade for has to be better than Mat Latos or it’s a moot point. Trade for Garza, you’ll have a playoff rotation of Cueto/Arroyo/Garza. Anyone prefer that over Cueto/Arroyo/Latos? Hell, even Cueto/Latos/Garza isn’t THAT much better. If you can’t get Span, Victorino, Demptster, or Lee then I’d rather just keep our farm system intact and go with what we have.

        I don’t think Dusty starts Arroyo in the playoffs. If he does, he should be fired. Right now it’s clearly Cueto/Bailey/Latos.

  3. brasp01

    I agree on Garza… I do not think the Reds will stand pat… They know they have to make a move… I don’t think we go after Span or Victorino. We need a LF bat off the bench. Pierre would be perfect IMO. How about Kotsay? Is that name still out there?

  4. byoung1989

    As much as I have complained about Stubbs in the past, it would still be tough to see him go. He’s gone on one of his tears these last couple of weeks, but aside from that, he’s been pretty atrocious.

    So, I suppose deal Stubbs. ONLY if we get a solid replacement for him.

  5. Aaron Lehr

    Heyman reports Reds/Phillies talks are done.

    I’m in for Garza, and of course for Ellsbury.

  6. Aaron Lehr

    Sorry, and by done I mean no deal.

  7. RedForever

    I’ll say this…I wish Miguel Cairo all the best in his future. I see him coaching somewhere. That being said, I think he has played his last game with the Reds. The Reds will acquire a bat and Cairo is the odd man out. I just don’t see how they would send out/cut anyone else.

    They may trade Cairo (Yankees would be a fit) but it would be a courtesy trade. He is more likely to get the old DFA.

    If I hear anything, I will post it here.

    • Racine Red

      I’ll say this…I wish Miguel Cairo all the best in his future.I see him coaching somewhere.That being said, I think he has played his last game with the Reds.The Reds will acquire a bat and Cairo is the odd man out.I just don’t see how they would send out/cut anyone else.

      They may trade Cairo (Yankees would be a fit) but it would be a courtesy trade.He is more likely to get the old DFA.

      If I hear anything, I will post it here.

      I don’t think you’ve followed this organization for the last 4 years. We’ll see. I hope they significantly improve the bench today and that a couple guys have played their last game, but I’m not holding my breath.

    • AnnapolisHoosier

      I’ll say this…I wish Miguel Cairo all the best in his future.I see him coaching somewhere.That being said, I think he has played his last game with the Reds.The Reds will acquire a bat and Cairo is the odd man out.I just don’t see how they would send out/cut anyone else.

      They may trade Cairo (Yankees would be a fit) but it would be a courtesy trade.He is more likely to get the old DFA.

      If I hear anything, I will post it here.

      I think you are underestimating Dusty. You SHOULD be right, but I will believe it when I see it.

      • CaptainTonyKW

        So in addition to setting the roster, Dusty is not making trades? What exactly does Walt Jocketty get paid to do? Mow the lawn at GAPN?

        I think you are underestimating Dusty.You SHOULD be right, but I will believe it when I see it.

      • AnnapolisHoosier

        So in addition to setting the roster, Dusty is not making trades?What exactly does Walt Jocketty get paid to do?Mow the lawn at GAPN?

        If you are going to comment at least understand what you are commenting on. We were discussing if Arroyo would be in the playoff rotation. If you want to defend Dusty, defend him batting Cozart first.

      • CaptainTonyKW

        Uhh, the comment you replied to (and quoted) was all about Miguel Cairo…

        If you are going to comment at least understand what you are commenting on. We were discussing if Arroyo would be in the playoff rotation.If you want to defend Dusty, defend him batting Cozart first.

      • AnnapolisHoosier

        Uhh, the comment you replied to (and quoted) was all about Miguel Cairo…

        We were talking both. You know Dusty loves Cairo though

  8. rfay00

    Reds have ceased talks on Victorino and Pierre per Jon Heyman

  9. brasp01

    Glad on Victorino… Just wish we would have gotten Pierre… Oh well…

    Kotsay would be great on the bench. Any potential there?

  10. Aaron Lehr

    @TC: Agreed. I don’t want someone who is a marginal upgrade over a guy we already have (i.e. Pierre, Victorino, Span). Either go for Garza/Choo or pickup some bench help, but nothing in between. We already have 3 middle of the road OFers. Don’t need more.

    • Vottomatic84

      @TC: Agreed. I don’t want someone who is a marginal upgrade over a guy we already have (i.e. Pierre, Victorino, Span). Either go for Garza/Choo or pickup some bench help, but nothing in between. We already have 3 middle of the road OFers. Don’t need more.

      At this point, I agree. Either go big for something that you think will put you over the top (Upton, Garza – which is questionable barring his health, Dempster, Choo, Ellsbury, DeJesus), or add additional pieces that won’t upset the rotation or lineup, but could help you win a series.

      Overbay, Pierre, Kotsay, or any other player you could bring in to fulfill a LH bench bat or as an upgrade backup utility player would help tremendously.

      This team is constructed to legitimately contend for the next 2-3 seasons at least, so you don’t want to pick apart that foundation. But, if you see an option that will tremendously boost your chances in the here and now (and possibly next year), don’t you HAVE to go for it?

  11. Aaron Lehr

    @TC: I’m sorry can’t search at the moment… aside from the mention on this post, I briefly saw it one or two other places. I’m sure it’s pie in the sky.

  12. alekccincy

    @TC: That’s what I was referring to with top of the rotation. I didn’t mean he would be the number 1. Cueto is our ace, there is no debating that. Throw Garza after Cueto in the playoffs and then Latos 3rd in the rotation. Solid playoff rotation.

  13. jimiblazen

    Garza or Choo would be great additions and I would have no problem sending leake and/or stubbs for one of those guys….the other name I have seen rumored is Lyle Overbay, he could be a low cost replacement for cairo

  14. brasp01

    I dont know about Choo… He doesn’t play CF, and I am guessing it would take Stubbs to get him… Do you put Bruce there or have Choo try it out?

    • AnnapolisHoosier

      I dont know about Choo… He doesn’t play CF, and I am guessing it would take Stubbs to get him… Do you put Bruce there or have Choo try it out?

      I would play Choo in CF

  15. RedForever

    ESPN’s Jayson Stark reports that the Phillies are “close” to trading outfielder Shane Victorino to the Dodgers for right-hander Josh Lindblom and a second player.

  16. brasp01

    If Ellsbury is available and we can get him for Stubbs, you do it and do it yesterday… Other than that, I do not see a huge upgrade to go with (now that we are done with the Phils) at leadoff…

    I think the Reds do like Garza’s playoff experience… He would fit in great in the rotation…

  17. Racine Red

    Somebody mentioned the sell-high, go for the World Series trade yesterday. No, this will never happen, but how about Reds trade Stubbs, Bailey, and Corcino for Felix Hernandez, and then trade Hernandez in the offseason given that he’s outside the budget. Or they could do the same with Cliff Lee. No, I don’t really think the Reds or the Mariners/Phillies would do that.

    Back in the real world, the same guy (David?) mentioned getting Stephen Drew as a replacement for Cozart. Drew is terrible this year in a few ABs (been hurt), but he’s sure look a lot better on the Reds’ bench (or if Cozart were to falter, Cozart would look a lot better on the Reds’ bench) than what they currently have. But I know people here love them some Wilson Valdez. Not me. If I could get Drew for cheap, I’d do it (and his contract is cheap). Cozart has been ok, but this would be a hedge.

    I’d love a left-handed platoon partner for Stubbs. There was concern about too many platoons, but the Reds don’t actually platoon anyone. They have shared catching duties (not based on handed-ness), and potentially a shared 3rd base (but I suspect Frazier’s going to the bench shortly). DeJesus qualifies here.

    If Overbay were nearly free, I would not mind him as insurance for meniscus tears.

  18. Bob Purkey

    In the “for what it’s worth department” I saw this morning that the Reds were interested in recently DFA’d Lyle Overbay as a left-handed bat off the bench. Since he was DFA’d this week by the Dbacks with the acquisition of Johnson from Houston, he basically would be there just for the asking. . .

  19. RedHawkRedFan

    @eric nyc:

    I read somewhere that usually they put the good arms on the corners. I agree, he doesn’t have Stubbs range to play center. CH barely has the range.

  20. jj4518

    I bet Uncle Walt pulls off something out of left field. He has a track record of doing this going back to his days in St. Louis. He’ll do something that puts the Reds over the top this year.

  21. CaptainTonyKW

    Choo has good range and GABP has a small outfield, so it would not be a big deal for home games. The only noticeable difference might be in away games in big parks.

    I can’t think of any reason Jay Bruce COULDN’T play centerfield. He doesn’t have Stubbs’ range, but he’s not slow by any stretch. And he’s got the best arm in the league. It would take some adjustments, but it’s not like he’s in the corner because he’s a bad outfielder.

  22. kham4

    I like Garza. I think he’s completely capable and fits in with Latos and Cueto for a playoff rotation. And while I agree that you shouldn’t mess with success, you also have to think about work load, and injuries. We’re the only club in the majors to use the same 5 guys all year. When was the last time a team went a whole season with only 5 guys? And 4 of our starters are on pace for career highs in innings, with Cueto’s career numbers always ballooning in August and September. I think we NEED a starting pitcher. Cuz of this stuff, and think Garza fits great. Give him time to get his arm to 100% then let him loose.

  23. Bob Purkey

    @Sultan of Swaff: For the life of me, this is what drives me nuts about all sports. I have no problem paying anyone huge bucks when/if they perform, but why would Stubbs be in line for a “substantial raise?” He should consider himself lucky if they didn’t offer him more than a 10% cut!

  24. Racine Red

    Folks, if the Indians offered Choo for Stubbs straight up, I will buy a new jet just to fly Stubbs to Cleveland. I will also pay for a psychologist to examine the Indians’ GM. There is no way on God’s green earth that Stubbs is being traded for Choo straight up. It will not happen. Choo is elite, and Stubbs is not. Forgetting about whether he fits in with the Reds—the Indians won’t discount Choo’s price because Jay Bruce has to play CF if they get Choo.

    Think of it this way: would you trade Jay Bruce for Stubbs? No? Choo is significantly better than Jay Bruce, AND he’s cheaper too over the next 1.5 years!

  25. LukeSho

    I wish Choo was really an option for us. I think one more substantial bat is really the key for us. But then again, if Drew and Ludwick of late aren’t a mirage, and Bruce could find a bat and with Joey coming back, maybe that will be enough offense.

    I think Garza does nothing but great things for our rotation. I would be willing to give up a pretty moderate package for him. I love the idea of a rotation involving him with Cueto, Latos, and Homer.

  26. Abel

    Choo’s bat would be huge. Instantly becomes the second best hitter on the team. I’m all for giving up Stubbs in a package that would have to include some good prospects. Bruce can handle CF. That also takes away one of Dusty’s low OBP options at the top of the order. No idea where Choo goes in the lineup, not going to even bother to think about the ideal order because it’s not what Dusty’s going to do.

    Have there been rumors about Choo though or was that just speculation on this site?

  27. RedManifesto

    Jay Bruce could certainly play CF.

    One of the major complaints now is that he looks slow or even lumbering in RF. One has to remember that many of the balls hit to RF are inherently played to his left where the chalk line and different dynamics of the walls of stadiums make for a more deliberate approach. He has to anticipate, wait for the bounce, etc.

    CF’s, on the other hand, are more straight line defenders. They move up, to the left and to the right with benefit of always having grass underneath them. The only plays near obstacles are the outfield wall, itself.

    While it’s obvious that Stubbs’ straight-line speed is much more impressive than Bruce, I feel that the attribute is much more relevant on the base baths than in the outfield. I think Bruce will be fine playing CF. Sure, there will be balls just beyond his reach that you’d say, “Stubbs would have caught”. But really, how often will we be saying that? Once a game, once every other game? I think we’ll find that to be negligible.

    But what we won’t find negligible is the benefit of adding a .300 hitter to the mainstay of the outfield. Get Choo.

  28. Racine Red

    On Stubbs-Choo (and remember, that is a totally made-up idea), from the Indians’ side, they would be trading a player with one year of eligibility for a player with three. If you view Stubbs as a 20-HR, 40-SB guy, who plays immaculate CF with a strong arm, I can see making that deal from their side. You can’t leave the contract status out of it. Plus the Indians have a limited budget and Stubbs would be cheaper than Choo.

    In theory, the Reds can afford to give up the two years of team control because they have another CF (Billy Hamilton) in the pipeline who might be ready around 2014.

    I’m not saying that Stubbs couldn’t go in a trade for Choo, just that it would have to include a good bit more from the Reds side.

    I know you like Stubbs, but your vision of him as a 20 HR, 40 SB player who plays a good CF isn’t a vision at all: he’s going to nearly do that this year! He’s on pace for about 20 HR, and on pace for about 35 steals I believe. And his OPS+ is 85. That means the Indians would have to project that they get 3 more years of control of a really good defensive CF who will have an 85 OPS+, for trading a great player. Teams just don’t do that.

  29. mmenke0

    How much input are we thinking Dusty has in all of the trade talks?

    • Bob Purkey

      How much input are we thinking Dusty has in all of the trade talks?

      If we get Pierre – a lot, and hopefully if Choo, Span, Victorino or anybody else, probably very little.

  30. heavyc24

    First time, long time (is there a more annoying phrase in sports coverage?). If we are dealing with the Cubs, should we not be seeking a Campnana or DeJesus (pipedream) in addition to Garza? Either we are in or we’re not.

  31. Muy Caliente

    Can we afford to lose the only player on the roster (Valdez) who can lay down a bunt?

    All these big trade scenarios are fun to discuss, but I’d be more comfortable if they first addressed the GLARING need for a LH bat who can play outfield.

    This is me ranting, but in a perfect world, Cairo and Valdez (.260 OBP) would be gone as well. Bad, just bad.

  32. Racine Red

    I really hope Walt does nothing.I don’t see any player out there that is available that is that big of an upgrade over the team/players we have now or worth the cost it would take to get them.Go with what we have, and if it’s not enough then in the offseason when the trade market is a little more open/favorable then look to upgrade…but right now don’t do it Walt.

    Considering that we have no idea what the cost is of anyone, how can you say this?

  33. Muy Caliente

    @Matt WI: Is it the amount of bunting or the quality? This might be the whole chicken or egg argument though

  34. LukeSho

    @Sultan of Swaff: I honestly don’t hate Valdez on our bench. He provides fine defense, great bunting and had had some quality clutch hits. Even performed very well at a few starts in center when he had hardly ever done it before. I don’t think he’s a problem on our bench.
    Now Cairo on the other hand I believe is much past providing any value.

  35. RedManifesto

    Possibly the only reason why I’d like to see Victorino acquired is so I could begin to sing…”I’m so keeno on Vic-to-rino! What a delicious cuisino! Fit for a king and queeno!” Thank you Seinfeld for 9 hilarious seasons.

  36. jonclark3235

    Choo would be an awesome upgrade in outfield but what prospects would the indians want to get him? They aren’t dumb and have seen the drew stubbs that led the league in strikeouts and know that choo is a better player than him. I would imagine that they would want at least 1 solid prospect that is coming to the mlb in 1 or 2 years and then another that they take can swing at. Who do the reds have that would fill their needs? Realistically what would it take?

  37. CKeever

    Regardless of staying pat or making a move by 4pm…there is one guy that I’m quite excited to pick up after the trade deadline…Joey Votto.

  38. Racine Red

    @Racine Red: The career ERA+ of 108 seems a bit misleading.Other than his rookie year he has only had 1 year lower than 110.(That is except for this year with the Cubs defense playing behind him.)

    Take away his rookie year and it might be 111. Let’s say that if traded to the Reds he’ll have a 110 ERA+. Who does he replace in a 4 man playoff rotation. As other have said, Arroyo will pitch, even if he does not deserve to. That means he replaces Bailey or Latos. And this is IF they go 4 man. With off days they might be able to do a 3-man rotation at times.

  39. Racine Red

    @Steve Mancuso: What data.Cueto’s Career ERA+ is 116.

    You’re comparing Garza to Cueto because their career ERA+’s are similar? Sheesh, Cueto is 175 and 171 the last 2 years.

  40. proudpappa75

    If, and I mean if, Bailey continues as he has pitched recently ( I believe his era is around 2.65 over his last 10 starts) he will not be left off the post season rotation.

  41. AnnapolisHoosier

    If you look at what the Cubs acquired in all their deals so far, it’s been pitching.You’d have to think that by dealing 3/5ths of their rotation this week, they’d need at least one major league ready, cost-controlled pitcher back. Leake to the Cubs for Garza makes a lot of sense for both sides.I hope we expand the talks to include DeJesus and LaHair.Their splits would perfectly compliment Ludwick and Stubbs, whose splits are the exact opposite.Two headed monsters in LF and CF!!

    Remember, you could always flip Garza in the offseason and get back what you gave for him, so the risk is very low.

    I would drive Leake to Chicago myself for Garza. He would be in the playoff rotation. Leake will not.

    • AnnapolisHoosier

      Couldn’t disagree more.I don’t see how Garza is that great and now is dealing with arm issues.Leake is still learning and under team control for how long?I think long term Leake has much more upside then Garza could ever bring us.We have to get away from this “all in this year” as we have the makings of a nice 5-7 year run.

      Leake will never be a top 3 pitcher in the rotation. Garza has and can be. The arm thing is a major concern though, I agree with you on that.

      • AnnapolisHoosier

        Leake is in his 3rd season of pro ball, how can you say he can’t?How many pitchers have done what he has done right out of college on the pro level at this point in their pro career?

        Because is stuff is just OK. I’m not saying he’s terrible, but I don’t ever see him being a top of the line starter. When you can’t throw a fastball by anybody you are not a top of the line starter and he doesn’t have Greg Maddux control.

      • Racine Red

        Because is stuff is just OK.I’m not saying he’s terrible, but I don’t ever see him being a top of the line starter.When you can’t throw a fastball by anybody you are not a top of the line starter and he doesn’t have Greg Maddux control.

        I could not agree more with this.

      • Racine Red

        Throwing the fastball by someone is so overrated.An out is an out, in fact even the Nationals Pitching coach feels that way.

        Considering that two of his elite starters have huge strikeout rates, and the other one has an elite walk rate, I find this very humorous.

      • AnnapolisHoosier

        Throwing the fastball by someone is so overrated.An out is an out, in fact even the Nationals Pitching coach feels that way.

        Oh come on.

  42. Stoph

    I cannot get any dang work done today! Please stop posting in this thread so that I can eliminate the urge to check it every 2 minutes… 😉

  43. Racine Red

    John Fay (Cincinnati Enquirer) just posted a summary of where the Reds stand as of 11 a.m.

    He’s pessimistic about any moves being made now, particularly for the elusive “lead-off hitter” – he thinks the Reds have gotten a little more reluctant to deal with Stubbs and Ludwick hitting well lately. He advocates moving Brandon Phillips to the lead-off spot and Ryan Ludwick to clean-up. Sign me up for that, too. He was against the Ondrusek-for-Victorino which is a deal I’d have made. His take on the Garza rumors:

    I really just don’t believe that the Phils offered Victorino for Ondrusek straight up. The rumors now are they want Lindblom and someone else from the Dodgers. Lindblom is better than Ondrusek just on his own.

    If you want to make smart trade decisions, you must be able to evaluate your own organization. If the Reds are really letting Ondrusek stand in the way of upgrades, they’re really not evaluating properly.

  44. Bumbum

    Don’t sub with Stubbs! What the Reds need to do is to be wiser in the batting order. Dustman needs to wake up and see who can hit and who can’t a certain week. Dustman needs to change a little bit of his philosphy and the Reds will be fine. It most likely to be better to look at another SP, because at this point, they can’t trust Mr. Leaky Oil!

  45. Nashville Matt

    Please not Juan Pierre…he’s having a better year than usual, but most guys return to normal at some point. He’s a slap hitter but not historically an on-base guy. Can you say Willy Tavares? And Pierre’s defense stinks. We’re in first place because of pitching and defense. Dusty should wake up and move both Stubbs and Cozart down in the lineup. Neither are top of the order guys, but both are outstanding defensive players.

  46. AnnapolisHoosier

    Bowden said the Pirates passed on Choo for Marte, which is very surprising. You might be able to get Choo for Stubbs.

  47. AnnapolisHoosier

    At 11:54 Bowden said that Jocketty’s assistants have been put on lock down, which could mean a trade is coming. Interesting….

  48. rightsaidred

    John Fay (Cincinnati Enquirer) just posted a summary of where the Reds stand as of 11 a.m.

    He’s pessimistic about any moves being made now, particularly for the elusive “lead-off hitter” – he thinks the Reds have gotten a little more reluctant to deal with Stubbs and Ludwick hitting well lately. He advocates moving Brandon Phillips to the lead-off spot and Ryan Ludwick to clean-up. Sign me up for that, too. He was against the Ondrusek-for-Victorino which is a deal I’d have made. His take on the Garza rumors:

    Fine. But Dusty already tagged BP for cleanup on Votto’s return. Unless he is just trying to keep Coz confident until dropping him in the order – great, but that sounds like a TLR tactic, not Dusty.

    • Racine Red

      Bowden said Victorino to the Dodgers for Martin and Linblom, done deal

      While I don’t think this is a huge return, it’s twice Logan Ondrusek.

  49. rightsaidred

    Glad we did not pay anything remotely close to what Dodgers did for Victorino! What a dumb move!

  50. rightsaidred

    Glad we did not pay anything remotely close to what Dodgers did for Victorino! What a dumb move!

    • AnnapolisHoosier

      Glad we did not pay anything remotely close to what Dodgers did for Victorino!What a dumb move!

      They already replaced Lindblom last night by getting Brandon League. Dodgers are going for it. By the time today is done they may be the best team in the NL.

  51. lthedaug

    Call me boring, but how about a veteran catcher of some flavor to stash in case of emergency. The thought of either Mesaraco or Hanigan going every day down the stretch is troubling from a stamina standpoint. But not quite as troubling as running Corky or Navarro out there twice a week in the middle of a pennant race. 40 man issue either way.

  52. AnnapolisHoosier

    Victorino will thrive in LA hitting in that lineup, playing for his next contract. Hitting .357 since the ASB.

    Agree. I really wanted Victorino. I think there is a tad too much value put on “prospects” Who was the last minor leaguer the Reds traded that we wish we had back. I can’t think of anybody.

    • redsfanman

      Agree. I really wanted Victorino.I think there is a tad too much value put on “prospects” Who was the last minor leaguer the Reds traded that we wish we had back. I can’t think of anybody.

      I’d say Yasmani Grandal is the last one, although I think he left in a fair deal. Other prospects, like Johnny Cueto, Joey Votto, Todd Frazier, and Homer Bailey I’m glad they didn’t trade away despite pressure to do so.

      • AnnapolisHoosier

        I’d say Yasmani Grandal is the last one, although I think he left in a fair deal.Other prospects, like Johnny Cueto, Joey Votto, Todd Frazier, and Homer Bailey I’m glad they didn’t trade away despite pressure to do so.

        Jury out on Grandal, too early to tell but agree he has a chance. Like I said, name me a prospect the Reds traded that you miss. Those guys didn’t get traded. I remember a lot of angst over prospects we’ve given up (what was the minor league pitchers name that went in the Rolen deal) but none have panned out.

  53. RedLegHustle

    I can’t help to wonder if Old Toothpick McGee hadn’t been so obstinate with his No. 1 and No.2 two in the line up if we would even be thinking about trades right now.

    I don’t like the idea of a potentially broken Garza. I think you hold off until the winter to acquire pitching at this point. I would hate to see Stubbs go but have to admit I’m in favor of a Stubbs-Choo trade if the option presented itself.

    • Racine Red

      Bowden saying now the Dodgers are real close to getting the Dempster deal done.

      There are ramifications here. If the Reds do not win the division, it just got a lot harder to get one of the two wildcards.

  54. brasp01

    @AnnapolisHoosier: Very interesting… the suspense is killing me… Lets get something done and improve this team. We are not far away at all from competing for the pennant and World Series…

  55. AnnapolisHoosier

    I feel good about the Reds winning the division even if they stand pat, but I want to win the pennant and play in the World Series. Not sure if this team is good enough to do that as they stand right now.

  56. Abel

    They already replaced Lindblom last night by getting Brandon League. Dodgers are going for it. By the time today is done they may be the best team in the NL.

    I’d much rather go to Washington than LA in October at this point. We need to make a move if we’re going to make some noise in the playoffs.

  57. RC

    Pence is a guy I really wanted the Reds to go after last year. But his numbers this year arent all that lust-inspiring…

  58. proudpappa75

    Arroyo has not earned a playoff spot as of right now. That’s not to say that he can’t. If he catches fire and say, Bailey, struggles from here on out, then Arroyo gets the spot. Bailey has a hold on it now.

  59. kham4

    Other teams in the NL are getting better. We need to make a move. We’re a tired arm or two, and another injury from being the Brewers.

  60. byoung1989

    Giants trade for Hunter Pence. We’re done playing the Giants in the regular season, but have three games with the Dodgers in late September. That’s the Dodgers with Kemp, Ethier, Hanley Ramirez and Victorino.

    The final two weeks of the season will determine the Reds fate, unfortunately. An ugly series against the Dodgers & Brewers, the Redlegs are in trouble as they travel to Pittsburgh and St. Louis to finish off the season.

    ..I’m going to need some anxiety meds. I have a strange feeling the Reds, Buckos, and Cards will all be 1-3 games of each other that final week.

  61. zab1983

    so the dodgers and giants both got better than us over last couple days? bottom line?

  62. freddy34

    Why does Uncle Walt think we have what it takes to be long lived playoff team?

  63. freddy34

    I am Reds fan but if we dont make a upgrade via trade i dont see this team making it to the world series. All year we have had stubbs and cozart 1 and 2 in the lineup and them alone have 200obp so how is that good enought once we get in the playoffs. I dont think it is.

  64. Richard Fitch

    I really want Garza. I think now that the Victorino drama is behind Walt, this is where something could happen. Reds are gonna need more & improved starting pitching before this is over.

  65. Racine Red

    @Racine Red: I’m not comparing them.Cueto is elite.I was simply point out that the “data” took all the Reds’ ERA+ from this year and compared it Garza’s career.Cueto’s ERA+ is 116.It was not a fair post.If you looked at Cueto’s career ERA+ you’d miss how good he really is.Garza is good too.

    I quoted Garza’s career ERA+ because it is pretty consistent year to year and his ERA+ is not that good this year. If you gave me Garza for free, I’d make him my #2 starter in the postseason. However, he’s going to cost a lot, and I just don’t think he’s much better than Latos and Bailey such that his cost will be justified.

    Yes, Bailey’s career ERA+ is not good, and sure, he could implode, but if he doesn’t the rest of the year (let’s just suppose), then I don’t think his prior years are that relevant when thinking about the postseason rotation. And obviously Latos is having a down year for him, but his career ERA+ is much better than this year, so he’s similar to Garza in that respect.

  66. rfay00

    So all the bats are gone…only pitching left to get

  67. proudpappa75

    I believe I read earlier that Garza would be under control through 2013? that would set up nicely for Stephenson and Cingrani who should be ready in 2014. There wouldn’t be any need to pay Garza and keep him. If they can get him without giving up either of those two then I say do it.

  68. Racine Red

    @dn4192: I don’t think the Dodgers are done making moves yet. But I think you’re wrong that the Dodgers haven’t passed up the Reds with their moves, especially if they acquire Dempster, which it looks like they will.

    They will have sort of a FrankenTeam, won’t they?

    • kham4

      They will have sort of a FrankenTeam, won’t they?

      At the end of the day, they’re all still wearing a Dodgers uniform.

    • Racine Red

      Kershaw, Dempster, Capuano, Billingsley, Harang is a pretty good starting rotation. Kemp, Ethier and Victorino in the outfield. Hanley Ramirez at SS. That’s a threatening team. Get used to it. They have loads of money from their new TV contract. They may well add Josh Hamilton to Ethier and Kemp next year.

      I sure would not want to play that team in October. I rather liked the version the Reds played a few weeks ago, when Jerry Hairston Jr was the best hitter in the lineup.

    • byoung1989

      Kershaw, Dempster, Capuano, Billingsley, Harang is a pretty good starting rotation. Kemp, Ethier and Victorino in the outfield. Hanley Ramirez at SS. That’s a threatening team. Get used to it. They have loads of money from their new TV contract. They may well add Josh Hamilton to Ethier and Kemp next year.

      They are becoming the Yankees of the West Coast.

  69. zab1983

    Leake, Stubbs, and somebody else to twins for willingham and span, platoon willingham and ludwick in LF, play Span in CF and let him lead off. and find a scrub to be your 5th starter in another trade………Reds FO won’t do anything super bold like this i believe though

  70. Boneill1621

    Has there been any more news on Lyle Overbay? The Reds need to do something at this point in my opinion.

  71. ItCouldGoAlltheWay

    If Garza passes the medical team muster…..make the trade……
    2012 staff Cueto, Garza, Latos,Bailey and Arroyo
    2013 staff Cueto, Garza, Latos, Bailey, Chapman
    2014 staff Cueto,Latos,Bailey, Chapman, Cingrani

    Makes sens no and the future

    • redsfanman

      Didn’t Ryan Madsen pass a physical before we signed him and he was not showing any phsyical issues.Sorry wouldn’t touch Garza unless I can see 2-3 more games from him with no pain and no restriction in pitching.

      You know, most players pass physicals before being signed. Refusing to consider players who pass physicals would really limit your options…

  72. rightsaidred

    Has the train left the station?

  73. zippy

    Haven’t read through all the comments, so my apologies if I’m repeating something that has been said a dozen times, but one of the things I like about the Reds’ situation, and I think we all have basically the same feeling, is that this team is in a position to be quite good for many years without making any major moves. With the core group of Votto, BP, Frazier, Cozart, Bruce, Meso, Cueto, Latos, Bailey, Leake (maybe) Chapman, Hamilton and Stubbs/Heisey (maybe) in Cincy the next few years, it would be foolish to give up TOO much just to get a rent-a-player who might make the team marginally better for one season. I imagine we’d all like to see some sort of improvement for a playoff run, but I think we mostly agree the team shouldn’t make a go-for-it-all-this-year-and-mortgage-the-future type of trade. That’s a refreshing change for this team – to KNOW that you’re in a position to be competitive for the next 3-5 years without having to make any huge acquisitions.

  74. freddy34

    I cant beleive sense Walt taken over a Gm and we made on good trade and that was to get Rolen. Reports have said we have money to spend and i guess we are just going to keep it. I hope to plad the Dodgers in the playoffs because we could be out with our lineup the way it is now.

  75. rightsaidred

    NL West is scary looking now.

    It’s funny to see the activity out there compared to the Central where the biggest move has been trading away Greinke. The Cubs are on the verge of missing the boat. They need to sell and have only unloaded Soto.

  76. rightsaidred

    Trade for Ramon Hernandez? Dusty would bat him higher than #8 . . .

  77. RedForever

    Maybe the Reds moves are Xavier Paul and next week…Joey Votto.

  78. rightsaidred

    Bowden says Dempster deal is done with only jots and tittles remaining . . . Cubs have sold a lot this deadline.

    One WC spot to the NL West. Who gets the other? Braves or NL Central #2?

  79. wally mo

    People have mentioned that they expect to get a new piece for the bench, but I think Xavier Paul was that piece.

    Votto comes back soon, and that means getting someone off the roster. My guess is that it will be Cairo, because with Rolen hitting better, Frazier is going to be back on the bench, and he and Cairo cover the same positions.

    So that would leave the bench as Frazier, Heisey, Paul, Valdez. That’s pretty solid if you assume that Ludwick and Rolen keep hitting.

  80. RedLegHustle

    @dn4192: Yep my thoughts exactly. I recall getting burned on Gary Majewoski (spelling?) as well.

  81. ItCouldGoAlltheWay

    @wally mo:
    Walt release Cairo (I hope). Got to be glad tha Dusty doesn’t make roster decisions…..or Cairo would stay.

  82. freddy34

    I still why Walt thiniks we need to stand pat every year. We can just came back fir undefeated road series but look they played come on really. A triple A Astros team and a Rockies that isnt that good either.

    • BearcatNation

      You stand pat this year because it’s not a good trade market.

      If thats your opinion, the Reds should never make a deadline deal because with the addition of the extra wild-card spot and extra emphasis on winning the division, this same seller’s market will appear every single year from now on.

      Its a changed landscape out there now with these new rules.

      • AnnapolisHoosier

        If thats your opinion, the Reds should never make a deadline deal because with the addition of the extra wild-card spot and extra emphasis on winning the division, this same seller’s market will appear every single year from now on.

        Its a changed landscape out there now with these new rules.

        +1, of course he thinks strikeouts are meaningless.

  83. shcherbina

    I’m just dreaming here but do you think that Dusty would have any trade value ? No matter what we get in return a lamp, sink, broken down car, it would have to add a couple of more wins above keeping him ❓

  84. wally mo

    @rightsaidred: Phillips has a .337 OBP and some pop, and Frazier has a .333 OBP and some pop. If it were up to me, I would hit them 1 & 2.

    That would be an improvement over Cozart’s .288 and Stubbs .301. The totals are .670 to .589, so in 100 times through the lineup, or about 20 games, you would expect about 8 extra base runners in front of Votto.

    I think they tried to make a big deal for Ellsbury and Choo, but it didn’t work. Getting a marginal upgrade at leadoff wasn’t worth disrupting the chemistry, and probably wouldn’t have been better than just changing the order of the lineup.

  85. AnnapolisHoosier

    Bowden on twitter: Cubs source just told me that a Dempster deal to Dodgers NOT done and that Dempster opened up to other teams & they are working hard w 1 now [via Twitter]

  86. Richard Fitch

    Dempster to LA definitely not done and Dempster has agreed to open it up to include other teams … says Bowden.

  87. freddy34

    Hoestly we should of lost two games the Astros but we have Coco to thank for that so someone pleae tell me we are good enough to compete for a WS crown?

  88. Jmac84

    MLBTR reporting we’re talking to the Twins about Span again. Source says it’s 50-50 that it gets done. Get it done.

  89. proudpappa75

    sounds like Bowden believes the other team is either the nats or rangers

    • AnnapolisHoosier

      sounds like Bowden believes the other team is either the nats or rangers

      I saw on twitter that the other team is the Yankees.

  90. BearcatNation

    I have to be on board with those who insist we get something done. 10-game winning streak aside, there were and still are some major holes in this team. This team is probably a playoff team regardless, but if you are interested in winning the pennant and a world championship, more will have to be done.

    This is why GMs get paid the big money, to decide if parting with some of your valuable minor leaguers is worth it. I always say, be smart with your guys down in the minors, but a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

    Should be an exciting next couple hours.

  91. freddy34

    Just read on a trade rumor wesite that the Reds are still talking with the Twins

  92. cliff

    This win streak may be our undoing. Reel off 10 straight, management think were good enough to win with the current 25, fall by the wayside once the postseason kicks off and the real condensers duke it out.

    • RC

      We are good enough

      … we are smart enough, and gosh darn it, people like us.

      • Mwv

        … we are smart enough, and gosh darn it, people like us.

        Hahaha, best post so far today. Don’t forget guys, we have Frazier. If Frazier wants a ring then it’s a done deal.

  93. Daytonreds

    Span might be a Red after all. Add me to the boat of people not getting anything done until 4 today

  94. wally mo

    I think going after Span has to be seen as Walt trying to Dusty-proof the lineup. He has to get him a clear “leadoff hitter,” otherwise Dusty will keep putting the worst guys out there.

    Span is good. I have to imagine that Stubbs is the start of that deal though.

  95. Abel

    Span would be a nice piece to have and would solve the leadoff problem but it would come at the cost of pitching prospects.

    “One source pegs the Reds/Twins talks for Span as a “50/50″ chance of doing a deal. The Twins are desperate to re-stock their system with young starting pitching prospects.”

  96. beroader

    People, people! You’re forgetting the most exciting deadline move of all! Bringing up the ‘Stache from AAA to replace Meso!

  97. proudpappa75

    sounds like the twins are asking for starting pitching prospects. if they are asking for cingrani and or stephenson, please don’t do it. Corcino,yes, but the others look like the real deal.

    • BearcatNation

      sounds like the twins are asking for starting pitching prospects.if they are asking for cingrani and or stephenson, please don’t do it.Corcino,yes, but the others look like the real deal.

      Bird in the hand my friend. Don’t forget 3 of our starting spots for the next like 4 years will likely be made up by Cueto, Latos, and Bailey. Won’t be a ton of room there.

      Span is a player that makes sense for an organization like the Reds. Good contract, time left on it, good hitter, walks enough to show that he isn’t overly dependent on hitting, good speed. Enough pop to not be Juan Pierre. The guy doesn’t hit home runs but dont forget he has 27 doubles this year so far. Thats not too shabby.

      He is an upgrade at our leadoff spot no matter how you slice it, I don’t buy the ‘marginal upgrade’ argument with the way Joey Votto is hitting. Span getting on base will turn into runs the way Joey Votto hits. Runs=wins.

      I’m staying tuned. We will see…

      • Abel

        Bird in the hand my friend. Don’t forget 3 of our starting spots for the next like 4 years will likely be made up by Cueto, Latos, and Bailey. Won’t be a ton of room there.

        Span is a player that makes sense for an organization like the Reds. Good contract, time left on it, good hitter, walks enough to show that he isn’t overly dependent on hitting, good speed. Enough pop to not be Juan Pierre. The guy doesn’t hit home runs but dont forget he has 27 doubles this year so far. Thats not too shabby.

        He is an upgrade at our leadoff spot no matter how you slice it, I don’t buy the ‘marginal upgrade’ argument with the way Joey Votto is hitting. Span getting on base will turn into runs the way Joey Votto hits. Runs=wins.

        I’m staying tuned. We will see…

        Agreed on all counts. Span is a premier leadoff hitter and acquiring him is one of the only ways to make Dusty dislodge Cozart from that spot. Making the top of the order more productive is the key to taking this team to the next level.

        Make it happen Walt.

  98. Jeff

    Span for Leake and prospect and then go out and get Garza. Works right?

  99. CKeever

    At least my last 2 hours at work will be somewhat interesting with all this “Span 50/50” talk. I’m for it as long as we don’t give up too much.

  100. Jeff

    1. Span 2 . Phillips 3. Votto 4. Ludwick 5. Bruce 6. Frazier 7. Cozart 8. Hanigan sounds pretty good.

    • dc937

      1. Span 2 . Phillips 3. Votto 4. Ludwick 5. Bruce 6. Frazier 7. Cozart 8. Hanigan sounds pretty good.

      Its an awfully nice looking lineup, but even if this deal gets done, what makes one believe that Dusty would use it? If we get Span, an ideal leadoff guy, that would only give Dusty *more* incentive to use BP at cleanup. Swapping Stubbs for Span would not move Cozart down to 7th, he’d probably just be cemented in the 2 hole.

      FWIW, I hope the Span deal doesn’t get done. We shouldn’t trade away depth when we have some aging components on the big league team that will need replaced in the next 1-2 seasons (Rolen, Arroyo, Cairo). If the Twins would bite on Stubbs and a mediocre prospect, then go for it. I don’t see it happened without dealing a solid prospect though (Corcino, Hamilton, Gregorious).

      • Abel

        Its an awfully nice looking lineup, but even if this deal gets done, what makes one believe that Dusty would use it? If we get Span, an ideal leadoff guy, that would only give Dusty *more* incentive to use BP at cleanup. Swapping Stubbs for Span would not move Cozart down to 7th, he’d probably just be cemented in the 2 hole.

        FWIW, I hope the Span deal doesn’t get done. We shouldn’t trade away depth when we have some aging components on the big league team that will need replaced in the next 1-2 seasons (Rolen, Arroyo, Cairo). If the Twins would bite on Stubbs and a mediocre prospect, then go for it. I don’t see it happened without dealing a solid prospect though (Corcino, Hamilton, Gregorious).

        So there’s no point in trying to get better hitters since Dusty’s just going to mismanage them? I agree that there’s no way Dusty moves Cozart down to 7th but we still look a lot better with Span batting 1st even if Cozart only moves down to 2. I would prefer Brandon 2nd but having him bat cleanup hasn’t been a disaster this year. He’s hit with a high average and decent power, and is very capable of driving in runs from that spot.

        I wouldn’t call Cairo a piece that needs replaced, he’s basically redundant in the field unless (god forbid) Votto has another injury. Rolen has a replacement in Frazier, and we have multiple options to replace Arroyo down the road, we can afford to use one of them as trade bait.

  101. RedForever

    According to Scott Miller of CBSSports.com, the Reds are talking the Twins about a trade for outfielder Denard Span.
    Span would certainly satisfy their need for a leadoff hitter, as he has a quality .285/.360/.388 batting line. However, the Twins will likely want something significant in return, as the 28-year-old outfielder is under contract for $4.75 million next season, $6.5 million in 2014 and has a $9 million club option (or $500,000 buyout) for 2015. One source tells Miller that the deal has a “50/50” chance of going down.

  102. proudpappa75

    @<a href="#[email protected]BearcatNation: Im not againt Span for sure. But Cueto, Latos, Bailey, Cingrani, and Stephenson for a rotation and Hamilton moved to center and leading off sounds really good to me too. I’m a bit biased as I have been following Cingrani and Stephenson since they drafted them in hopes they found two top end guys and they seem to be it.

  103. Racine Red

    Sheesh, Pence gets traded for Schierholtz (reserve OF), Joseph (ok catching prospect), and an A ball reliever. He didn’t really fit this team, but that’s a very, very small price IMO.

  104. RedForever

    Phillies acquired RHP Seth Rosin, C Tommy Joseph and OF Nate Schierholtz from the Giants for OF Hunter Pence and cash considerations.

    Gives you an idea of the market.

  105. grandtheftvotto

    Stubbs and either Corcino or Hoover for Span seems like a good trade to me. This deal would be huge for the Reds, and provide some solidarity at the leadoff spot. PLEASE WALT

  106. Racine Red

    YES!!!!

    The trade we needed all along.God, I hope this is true.

    Isn’t it a bit odd to be the #1 Stubbs fan and want this trade? Just wondering.

  107. Racine Red

    Am I the only person on the planet that doesn’t want Span? I guess it’s down to Mancuso and me.

  108. beroader

    In terms of our rotation long term, how long do we control Cueto, Latos, Bailey, Leake, and Chapman? If someone like Bailey hits free agency, he will probably be offered a prohibitive paycheck. At that point, I’d want a Corcino or Cingrani to cheaply fill his spot. We’ve already committed a lot of resources to Votto, Phillips, and Bruce.

  109. BloodyHo

    Span is the perfect fit for the Reds and don’t assume that Stubbs will be included in the deal, if the deal is done. The Twins have a pretty solid yonng OF even with the loss of Span, which makes Span available. The deal works only if the price is right. I’m not adverse to sitting pat and passing on any and all deadline deals if Uncle Walt can’t get a proper deal done. Having Span in the lineup and still having Stubbs in the lineup would make for an interesting dilema and it might just make Mr. Baker’s head explode (figuratively speaking of course) … Wouldn’t that be a double win?

  110. wally mo

    @Jason Linden: I don’t hear a lot of people screaming for Leake to be traded. I think in the Garza talks, he’s the one who makes sense because he has 4 more years of team control for them and is cheap.

    He’s a solid middle of the rotation starter, and that’s valuable. Garza is clearly an upgrade. The Reds may want that upgrade for the next season and a half, and then bank on the prospects and Chapman filling out the rotation.

  111. proudpappa75

    @beroader: Stephenson will also be ready in a year or two and he is top end type as well. If they don’t deal away those guys then the rotation should be solid and affordable for a little while anyway.

  112. RC

    @Jason Linden: Seems like we’ve been asked for a lot of patience with, say, Homer Bailey. Why should Leake get less? I don’t want to see him go unless it’s for something gamechanging.

  113. kham4

    I’ve wanted Span throughout. I think he fits perfectly, and you can keep Stubby at 2. Trade any of Corcino, Lotzkar, maybe even Heisey or Gregorious. Span Stubbs Ludwick and Bruce is a way better 4 piece than Our 4 guys now.

  114. wally mo

    I like Span for this team more than Stubbs, but they have pretty similar value overall. The issue to me is that I don’t see why you would have Stubbs and Span on the same team, and it sounds like the Twins want pitching prospects.

    I feel like if we were going to get Span the offer would be Stubbs and a middle prospect at most. If they don’t want Stubbs you’d have to involve a third team to move him. So it seems tricky.

    I think the Reds would be a better team with Span at the top of the order than Stubbs, but the two teams don’t seem like a very good match.

  115. hokieneer

    Denard Span had two fantastic years in 2008 and 2009, with a combined .304/.390/.422 and an OPS+ of 122 and 115. Then he had two substantially worse seasons in 2010 and 2011, the latter he was plagued with injury. He had an identical batting average of .264 each of those two years, OBP of .331 and .328, and OPS+ of 88 and 90.

    So which Denard Span, 28, is playing now? This year he is hitting .290/.356/.396 with three HR, 32 RBI and 11 steals in 94 games. He’s been the Twins’ leadoff hitter in 91 of those games.

    How does he compare to Drew Stubbs? He hits for far less power and steals half the bases. Span’s walk-rate (9.3) is closer to the past two seasons than to his first two years. Stubbs’ walk-rate stays pretty consistently around 9%. Span’s primary advantage over Stubbs is the on-base-percentage. Stubbs has a career OBP of .320 and I expect him to return to that level by the end of the year.

    How legit is Span’s .356 OBP? Span’s line-drive rate is actually lower this year (16%) than his career average. His higher AVG seems to be coming from a greater ground-ball percentage compared to fly balls. His BABIP (batting average on balls in play) has jumped this year to .325, which is about .30 points above the past two seasons. If his BABIP regresses to the levels of the past two years, so will his OBP. In that case, his edge over Stubbs would be .15-.20 higher than Stubbs.

    In terms of contract status, Span earns $3 million this year and is signed for $4.75 million in 2013 and $6.5 million in 2014 and has a $9 million team option in 2015.

    Span has a clear edge in OBP, Stubbs in power. Is Span’s benefit worth what the Reds will have to give up for him?

    Seems you want to just count Span’s last 2 years, 1 of which involves injuries, and ignore his entire career. Span has a career .322 BABIP, .325 this year. A career .360 OBP, .356 this year. Career 17% LD rate, 16% this year. In fact almost every metric you look at this year for Span says he’s having a year that’s perfect in line with his career averages, which makes him a 3-4 win player. Span is a much better player than stubbs right now, and unless someone knows something I don’t about Stubbs magically learning to control the strike zone, Span will be a better player over the next 2-4 years as well.

    • hokieneer

      I posted the stats from all of his seasons for everyone to see. The fact is that even though Span is producing at the midpoint of his previous years, he’s never had a year anything like this. It has either been much better (earlier in his career) or much worse (the last two years). My point was if you drill down into the numbers, the main thing preventing him from being the player he has been the past two years is his BABIP. If it was higher because of a higher line drive rate, then you could believe he’s hitting better. But if it’s a product of where the ground balls are finding holes, then it may well regress. Span is now two and a half years away from his great seasons.

      It’s not just his BABIP. His ISO also suffered in those bad seasons, .084 and .095 opposed to .138 and .104 the 2 previous years (and .103 for his career). Not surprisingly his BB% was the lowest of his career in those 2 years as well, and it’s a touch higher now than it was in 10-11, but not to the point it was in 08-09.

      Span is the type of player where you’ll see some fluctuations in his BA because he’s a high speed, low power guy. His overall skill set seems fine to me, and his production at the plate in 2012 is right inline with his entire career. Span had a bad 2 years (missing over 100 games due to injuries), where his BABIP, BB%, and ISO suffered. I have no idea what the cost to acquire him is and whether the upgrade is worth it, but he’s a better player than Stubbs right now and likely in the future as well.

  116. zippy

    I’m not sure I’m in love with the Span, even straight-up for Stubbs, but I do like the fact that Dusty would probably recognize he’s a leadoff hitter, which means getting Cozart out of that spot. So that would be a nice little bonus that doesn’t show up in the stats. Unfortunately, knowing Dusty, this would just mean Cozart moves to the #2 spot, which isn’t much of an improvement.

    • AnnapolisHoosier

      I’m not sure I’m in love with the Span, even straight-up for Stubbs, but I do like the fact that Dusty would probably recognize he’s a leadoff hitter, which means getting Cozart out of that spot. So that would be a nice little bonus that doesn’t show up in the stats. Unfortunately, knowing Dusty, this would just mean Cozart moves to the #2 spot, which isn’t much of an improvement.

      Cozart hit pretty well in the #2 hole earlier this year (unless I’m mistaken).

  117. CaptainTonyKW

    People, teams who are looking to trade players put out these “rumors” and “rumblings” in order to inflate the market and create demand for their player. Some Minnesota assistant tells a reporter that the Reds want Span, now the team actually targeting Span feels pressure.

    • CaptainTonyKW

      Just saying, take a look at Rob Neyer’s twitter feed. He mainly sticks with reporting on who is available on the market.

      Another handful are willing participants in the game of reporting on negotiations and targets after getting fed info from various execs. Those writers participate because it drives hits.

      @CaptainTonyKW: Uh, okay Captain.Let’s get back to our regular scheduled programming.Nothing to see here.

  118. proudpappa75

    @TC: I agree completely but they have to start sometime to get going. The timing should work out well barring injuries to rotation which is likely and impossible to predict.

  119. AnnapolisHoosier

    Okay, now I’ll chime in here in the comments with a question: Why on earth do people want to trade Mike Leake? Because he was bad last night? He’s 24-years-old and has a 24-20 record in 3 seasons. Oh, and he’s really really cheap.

    I don’t want to trade him, but I would trade him in the right deal. I personally see him as a #4 or #5 pitcher and never higher.

  120. CKeever

    All this talk about our outfield…it’s so much nicer to be talking about Stubbs/Ludwick/Span than last year when we were talking about Fred Lewis and Jonny Gomes.

  121. cliff

    If you put span stubbs and Bruce in the OF, there’s no way span should man center over Stubbs.

  122. AnnapolisHoosier

    Fay throws some cold water on the Span rumor; #Reds source downplays Span talk.

    Of course a Reds source is going to downplay it. Fay might be the least plugged in beat writer in all of baseball.

  123. DavidBlack

    No stubbs in lineup today. Thats interesting

    • rightsaidred

      No stubbs in lineup today. Thats interesting

      Reply

      That is probably just Dusty trying to cool off a hot bat . . . wait, reverse that.

  124. rightsaidred

    @hokieneer: Fair enough. I think this deal is all about the prospects anyway – not Stubbs.

  125. AnnapolisHoosier

    @AnnapolisHoosier: That’s interesting, because Leake has been almost a dead-average major league starter so far, which, if you ask me, makes him a #3 starter.

    Maybe I should rephrase and say for a playoff team he should be no better than a #4. I don’t think you win playoff games with Mike Leake. I don’t hate Mike Leake, as a #4 or #5 he’s above average. Anything higher he’s below average. Just my opinion. I’ve certainly been wrong before.

  126. Abel

    Heisey CF, Valdez SS, Phillips 2B, Bruce RF, Ludwick LF, Rolen 3B, Frazier 1B, Mesoraco C, (Bailey P)

  127. DavidBlack

    Span has declined a trade to the reds, according to MLB network

    • rightsaidred

      Span has declined a trade to the reds, according to MLB network

      Ouch! There wasn’t even mention of veto power up to now.

  128. rightsaidred

    For me, the ONLY reason for WJ to trade for Span is to Dusty-proof the lineup.That is sad, sad, sad.It is the only argument that makes Span the least bit interesting to me.

    I see this a potential two-fer in the category. If Leake goes then Chapman is forced into the rotation next year and even if Dusty stays he has a leadoff hitter and rotation that Walt was able to set.

  129. BearcatNation

    One important point about Span is the fluctuation in his walk-rate. In the two seasons when he had elite OBP (2008, 2009) his walk rate was 12.2 and 10.4. They helped produce the elite, Choo-like OBP of .387 and .392. Sign me up for that.

    In 2010, his walk rate continued to decline (12.2 to 10.4 to 8.5) and contributed to the lower OBP, along with a lower AVG. The low walk rate continued in 2011 (8.7). Don’t get me wrong, those are still league-average walk rates. But they are importantly below his rates during his high-OBP seasons.

    This year, his walk rate is 9.3%. So again, sort of not as bad as the past two years, but nowhere near his good years, either.

    I see your point, Steve. But it seems very reasonable that those seasons are representing his floor and ceiling seasons (especially considering he had injury concerns in 2010 as well albeit much more minor that he battled through). With advanced metrics not very far off his career line, its seems to me that his stat line this season may very well be the real him, an average of his floor and ceiling.

    I’m no baseball scout and I don’t claim to be, but I see Span as an upgrade. From the recent talk, it probably doesn’t matter. For now, it seems the Reds will stand pat. Better than trading for Victorino or Pierre IMO so I can make peace with it. I’m not convinced this team can win the world series THIS YEAR, but the future is bright irregardless.

  130. Abel

    Well, no Span then. Meanwhile, the Pirates are close to getting Gaby Sanchez from the Marlins.

    • rightsaidred

      Well, no Span then. Meanwhile, the Pirates are close to getting Gaby Sanchez from the Marlins.

      Again, I don’t see how this move, as with their last, improve the team this year or even in the years following for that matter.

  131. DavidBlack

    @TC: I already sent him a tweet with my displeasure

  132. DavidBlack

    Okay MLB network says he did not decline the trade. Its just the reds not wanting to part with young talent.

  133. DavidBlack

    Add rosenthal is tweeting that we are going for broxton now

  134. zab1983

    @CharlotteNCRedsFan: i agree, u take span’s stats and they have to get way better at GABP. anyway, it’s a moot point now anyway?

  135. Josh M

    No Stubbs or Cozart in the lineup tonight, for what it’s worth.

  136. AnnapolisHoosier

    jcrasnick:
    A source confirms what @johnfayman just said: A Denard Span trade to #reds is “not likely” to happen. #twins [via Twitter]

  137. rightsaidred

    Broxton?! A bigger move than any leadoff hitter because it solves the Cuban Missle Crisis!

  138. AnnapolisHoosier

    David_Schoenfield:
    Report out there that the Reds are in on Jonathan Broxton talks. Reds have best bullpen ERA in the NL.

  139. AnnapolisHoosier

    JimBowdenESPNxm:
    Reds, Giants trying to get Broxton…..If Reds get Broxton they may move another pitcher to get Span from Twins [via Twitter]

  140. Jmac84

    They wouldn’t really try to move Aroldis into the Rotation at this point, would they?

  141. DavidBlack

    Reds have traded for broxton according to rosenthal

  142. CKeever

    30 minutes left! Let’s see if Walty has something up his sleeve.

  143. Abel

    That was my thought: if they get Broxton they will have an extra major league reliever to unload for a hitter.

  144. AnnapolisHoosier

    Twitter
    JimBowdenESPNxm:

    Ken Rosenthal reporting that the Reds have acquired Jonathan Broxton from the Royals [via Twitter]

  145. GoReds19

    Why would we go after Broxton. It sounds like a trade just to make a trade to me.

  146. ARFoskey

    they got him to start the conversion of chapman finally to a starter….at least thats what a good GM and Organization would do. So keeping fingers crossed!! 🙄

    • DavidBlack

      they got him to start the conversion of chapman finally to a starter….at least thats what a good GM and Organization would do. So keeping fingers crossed!!

      Too late in the year to pull that now

  147. DavidBlack

    Rosenthal saying we may have one more deal left

  148. proudpappa75

    I agree, another trade coming.

  149. CKeever

    C’mon Walt! Dazzle the nation in 25 minutes!

  150. rightsaidred

    bullpen depth. If they don’t make a corresponding trade (like Ondrusek for Victorino, except not that one) I wonder who loses their job in the bullpen? Must be a second trade coming

    The Phils wanted bullpen help – do we get Pierre now 😕

  151. Stoph

    19 minutes left….what does the Broxton deal preclude?

  152. DavidBlack

    Fay just pointed out how arrendondo has been struggling. I just remembered he did have a comebacker go off his arm a week ago, maybe we DL him for room for broxton on the roster.

  153. DavidBlack

    Todd Redmond is in cincinnati as well

  154. AnnapolisHoosier

    Twitter
    SBerthiaumeESPN:

    OFFICIAL: #Pirates acquire Gaby Sanchez & Kyle Kaminska from #Marlins for Gorkys Hernandez & draft pick. [via Twitter]

  155. AnnapolisHoosier

    JimBowdenESPNxm:

    Last time Reds won the WS….it Myers/Charlton/Dibble…..Broxton makes NL best bullpen even better #impressive [via

  156. aml92

    Mark Serrano on twitter “Congrats to teammate @JCSulbaran on getting traded to the Royals. Tear it up bruh.”

  157. AnnapolisHoosier

    Twitter
    JimBowdenESPNxm:
    Confirmed that Dempster has pre-approved both Yankees and Dodgers if traded [via Twitter]

  158. AnnapolisHoosier

    John Fay @johnfayman 17m

    Reason Broxton: Arredondo 5.79 ERA in July; Ondrusek 3.09 in July but 9 walks, 7 Ks. #reds

  159. ARFoskey

    reds trade 30th rd draft pick of 2008 JC Sulaburan to royals….teammate of Hosmer

  160. wally mo

    Stubbs was just on ESPN radio and just talked about playing with the Reds etc. No trade talk. Seems like Stubbs is staying put.

  161. Chad Dotson

    My gut reaction — if the trade actually is JC Sulbaran for Broxton — is that I like it.

    I think there’s a good argument to be made that Broxton is better than any other right-hander in the Cincinnati bullpen.

    • hokieneer

      My gut reaction — if the trade actually is JC Sulbaran for Broxton — is that I like it.

      I think there’s a good argument to be made that Broxton is better than any other right-hander in the Cincinnati bullpen.

      Agreed. I’m nervous about Ondrusek pitching in high leverage innings in September.

  162. byoung1989

    Jim Day is reporting its just a standard day off for Stubbs. Or as Dusty likes to call it “he just needs to cool off. He’s playing too well, and I dont like that.”

    Idiot.

  163. zblakey

    I have to agree with Doug, Joseph is too much to give up for a 2 month rental. Not that much better, if any, than Hoover.

    • Chad Dotson

      Now there are reports that the Reds gave up Donnie Joseph, in addition to Sulbaran. I change my vote: do not like.

  164. Jmac84

    I see Joseph has great numbers and from reading about him the past few years, he’s someone that I really liked, but I’ve never seen him pitch personally. Just curious as to who of the people who are very upset about losing him have seen him?

  165. zblakey

    No doubt Joseph and Sulbaran are too much to give up for a two month rental of Broxton.

    Uncle Walt “all in” but no clue about future impact. I would have thought Joseph would have fetched more. Lefty relievers usually carry high value.

  166. rfay00

    Hate the trade unless we extend him for another year

  167. Josh M

    So is that it? Reds make one bad deal that barely improves the team if at all?

  168. byoung1989

    OFFICIAL: #Reds acquire Jonathan Broxton from #Royals for Donnie Joseph and JC Sulbaran

    -Steve Berthiaume

  169. jj4518

    I don’t have a problem with the Broxton trade. It’s some insurance in case Chapman’s back flairs up (as it has in the past) or we need someone else to close out a game if Chapman has pitched 2-3 games in a row.

    • Racine Red

      To borrow from Woody Hayes, three things can happen when Marshall pitches (hit, walk, K) and two of them are bad. The bad ones are happening with too much frequency this season to trust him with a short lead in the 9th.

      That’s just incredibly misleading, wrong, I don’t know what else to call it. How many guys does Marshall walk? Do you even know, or are you just flailing? I’d say it’s flailing, and by the way, Marshall’s walk rate is the lowest of all the relievers. Only Arroyo has a lower rate on the whole team. And Marshall walks about half as many batters as Broxton.

  170. Mwv

    Anyone else think they should start selling Super Todd jerseys at the gift shop? I’d buy one. Not Todd Frazier jerseys, ones that actually say Super Todd.

  171. rightsaidred

    Calling me underhwelmed by this deal would be an understatement

  172. wally mo

    Seems like a trade to make a trade. Joseph probably could have pitched in the big leagues right now, for less money. The pen was a strength alraedy, and this doesn’t make it that much stronger.

    He’s probably only going to pitch 30 innings for the Reds at most, and if his ERA is a run better than who he’s replacing, that will be an improvement of about 3 runs total. Maybe he comes in sometime in a super high leverage situation and saves us a game.

    But it’s hard to see any argument for how this makes us significantly better, and we gave up at least one valuable piece.

  173. LoyalFan

    Everyone needs to walk off of the ledge and stop acting like we just traded away Bert Blyleven and Randy Johnson. This was exactly the type of move we needed to make. We marginally improved our current roster by giving away guys that probably will not make an impact at the major league level. We did not sacrifice our future and some other contenders cannot say the same thing.

    Raise your hand if your were counting down the days until Donnie Joseph and JC Sulbaran made their major league debut.

  174. doctor

    dissappointing over-pay as should been either Joseph or Sulbaran, not both. Joseph could have gotten call-up today with Bray going to DL. He could have been next LH bullpen guy for 2013 and teamed with Marshall when Chapman moves to be a starter in 2013.

  175. wally mo

    @vegastypo: Broxton won’t be added until tomorrow, so Redmond is insurance in case there’s another meltdown. Redmond out tomorrow for Broxton.

  176. Racine Red

    This is just a really stupid trade. It’s all predicated on the fact that Ondrusek, the organization may finally be realizing, isn’t good. So what do they do? Trade for Ondrusek, only his name is Broxton.

    Why not promote Hoover for Ondrusek, Joseph for Bray, and not trade Sulburan. Just dumb.

  177. Racine Red

    Broxton’s a great reliever and we got him for basically nothing. Broxton-Marshall-Chapman is the best back end of any bullpen in the league for the last 5 years and it’s not even remotely close.

    I wish we had done more, but it’s a good move on its own.

    Broxton’s last good year was 2009. He’s not good, let alone great.

  178. redsfan21

    Like the fact they got a veteran arm as insurance for Ondrusek and Arredondo. Joseph had potential, but Marshall is signed long-term.

  179. hokieneer

    Broxton isn’t much better than Ondrusek. Ok he is better, but is the difference worth what looks to be a pretty good AAA arm? Especially since we have hoover doing nothing. Does no one like JJ Hoover but me?

  180. jj4518

    We added pitching depth without messing with the team chemistry. If I was a Pirate fan I would be wondering what their GM is doing. Snider was their best pickup but he’s far from established and they gave up a nice arm in Lincoln. The other moves didn’t make much sense. With all their moves at the deadline I think you could make a case for the Pirates chemistry being messed with.

  181. Racine Red

    The thing I find so irritating is that I could be on board with a trade for a RH reliever that’s much more experienced than Hoover and is good. In my mind, Broxton is more experienced, but not even obviously better than what Hoover would do the rest of the year.

    And, is Baker actually going to demote Ondrusek from his current role?

  182. jj4518

    @jj4518: Hey I predicted Uncle Walt would come out of left field with something. Did anyone see the Broxton trade on the radar this morning?

  183. CincyStyle

    I like the trade because it gives a glimmer of hope that Chapman will be in the rotation come October! Leake or Bailey then become expendable. I think that Walt may pick-up Overbay as he would be cheap and he is a lefty.

  184. deskjockey

    Who wants to bet this somehow leads to even less use of Marshall? Baker’s unreasonable love of Ondru combined with his irrational dislike of Marshall lead me to think that somehow adding another set-up man is simply a way to further reduce Marshall’s innings and lock him into that Lefty-only role. I hope I’m wrong.

    I’m still happy…just was kinda hoping for something different.

    • Racine Red

      Who wants to bet this somehow leads to even less use of Marshall?Baker’s unreasonable love of Ondru combined with his irrational dislike of Marshall lead me to think that somehow adding another set-up man is simply a way to further reduce Marshall’s innings and lock him into that Lefty-only role.I hope I’m wrong.

      I’m still happy…just was kinda hoping for something different.

      And that’s another point. It almost necessarily means less Sean Marshall.

  185. Racine Red

    @Racine Red: He’s got a 2.27 ERA this year in 35 games. Not sure what you want from him. His numbers this season look a LOT more like his 2005-9 numbers in LA than his last two years. Hopefully he’s come back into form. If he has, it’s a solid get. Not one anyone was holding their breath for, and certainly not front page news, but an upgrade over Ondrusek as the late inning righty reliever to match up with Marshall. If this move had happened a couple weeks ago there would probably barely be any conversation on this board about it. It’s just because we were waiting for something bigger that it seems like kind of a disappointment.

    You’re way off base with saying I’d have liked this deal 2 weeks ago. Not a chance.

    Broxton is so far from the 2005-9 version it’s not even funny. He walks the same number of batters that he did then, and strikes out about half as many. How is that the same form?

  186. BloodyHo

    @eric nyc:

    It should also be noted that while his K/9 is not great, his ground ball percentage is stellar. 56.6%

    You hit the proverbial nail smack dab in the center of the head Eric. Broxton will be pitching in GABP. Broxton throws a lot lot of ground balls, a lot, lot. Even in GABP, ground balls do not leave the park. Broxton has just 1 HR in 35 innings. Apparently he has also been missing the speed on his fastball the past couple of years and it is back up to 95 this year. Welcome to Cincinnati Jonathan Broxton!

  187. L.A.Red

    Man…I hate this deal. All my L.A. Dodger friends are laughing at me and telling me stories about Broxton sucks in the playoffs. We gave up too much for this guy. Especially for a rental.

    Dodgers make a 1 for 1 trade for Victorino and we give 2 good farm prospects.

  188. Racine Red

    FIP numbers for Reds relievers:

    Chapman 1.10
    Marshall 2.39
    Simon 3.03
    Broxton 3.38
    LeCure 3.65
    Hoover 3.74
    Arredondo 4.15
    Ondrusek 4.45
    Bray 9.31

    As some have pointed out, it’s important to understand that Broxton is not the K/9 superstar that he was for a few years with the Dodgers. But he has managed to re-invent himself this year to be an effective pitcher in the ninth inning. One look at those FIP numbers and it’s obvious that he can help the bullpen.

    I hope you are right. Broxton’s xFIP is nearly 4 though. Keep in mind he’ll be taking innings that, if they did not want Ondrusek, could have been handled by, say, Simon.

  189. Racine Red

    @Racine Red: I didn’t say you would have LIKED the deal. I just doubt you would be so vehemently against it. I think, as someone else said, that it would have barely moved the needle.

    You’re assuming I’m disappointed about the lack of other moves. Not true; I am fine with standing pat (obviously, without knowing what was on the table), though I’d have liked one bench improving trade at least.

  190. Bruce Almighty

    Donnie Joseph 2011 stats
    Year Team W L ERA G GS CG SHO SV IP H R ER HR BB SO GO/AO AVG
    2011 Minors 1 3 6.94 57 0 0 0 8 58.1 67 45 45 8 30 66 1.17 .286

    Sell high right.

    I like this deal alot. If he is resigned even better.

    • Racine Red

      Donnie Joseph 2011 stats
      Year Team W L ERAG GS CG SHO SV IP HRER HR BB SO GO/AO AVG
      2011 Minors 1 3 6.94 57 0 0 0 8 58.1 67 45 45 8 30 66 1.17 .286

      Sell high right.

      I like this deal alot.If he is resigned even better.

      Love your name. However, this isn’t a sell high on Joseph, who, for his career, K’s 12.1 per 9.

      The point made elsewhere that the guys given up weren’t as good as the guys in the Latos trade…well, yeah. Broxton isn’t Latos.

      Sell high is when you trade a guy after two great weeks that are much better than he is.

  191. Racine Red

    Just curious, in touting Broxton’s ground ball percentage, how does Marshall rate in that category? He seems to get tons of grounders, too, but he’s seeing the mound less and less. And with Bray gone, he is exclusively the LOOGY now??… And I hear ya, LA Red, if this works out, great for the Reds. But it just seems like a very unnecessary chance to take.

    Marshall has a higher ground ball rate, a lower walk rate, and a K rate that’s way higher. And now that apparently they’re going without Bray for a while, and Joseph is gone, Marshall is the only lefty, which means he’ll probably pitch more appearances and fewer total innings.

  192. wally mo

    @Steve Mancuso: I think you’re dead on about Broxton helping, and being a solid upgrade over Ondrusek, Arredondo, LeCure, and Hoover.

    That said, you’re citing last year’s prospect lists on DoJO after he had a really bad year. I’m sure he would be well within the top 20 this year after having a massive comeback season.

    He dominated AA and AAA this year, and I was actually expecting him to take Bray’s place at some point this year if Bray remained ineffective.

    So it does seem like we gave up a young guy who could have made a contribution for many years for 2 months of slightly better relief pitching.

    Like I said before, can you make the argument that Broxton is worth more than 1 win above the guys he’s replacing? Do you think it’s a good move to trade a guy like DoJo for 1 win this year?

  193. Racine Red

    I’d love to hear from people who both moan and groan about Marshall, including his WHIP (1.316) but love the Broxton deal because they don’t
    trust Marshall (Broxton’s WHIP: 1.402). And since we’re into pop psychology here, Broxton has been pitching with much less pressure.

  194. zab1983

    anyone fear that dusty will automatically pigeon-hole broxton into set-up spot even if he is not deserving of it?

  195. wally mo

    The really interesting thing about this deal is Masset. Isn’t he supposed to be really close to coming back? Maybe this trade says no. Maybe he had a setback or hasn’t looked that good.

    If he is coming back and looks good, then our pen is going to get another upgrade soon, which makes this deal seem even less necessary.

    Still just leaves me scratching my head. We have the worst OBP at leadoff of any team in the bigs, and the best bullpen ERA. So what do we fix?

  196. bdogg47

    WJ was wise to not part w the position players. This team is oozing w great team chemistry. He wants to win, but he’s saying to the current players, “I believe in you!”. Ludwick said just a few days ago this team was the best clubhouse he’s been a part of. That includes two WS Cards teams he’s been on!! That’s significant! Getting Broxton solidifies the backend of the bullpen. The waiver trade deadline is still two wks away. IMO, don’t count out WJ trying to get Overbay. Sept. call-ups will possibly include Hamilton. We’re 20 games over .500, Cubs dumped players, no significant moves from the Pirates and Cards. We’ve got 2 months still left. It’s all good!!

    • deskjockey

      @bdogg

      The waiver trade deadline is still two wks away.

      Good point…this could still be a set-up deal and there still may be something else in the works.

  197. Boneill1621

    @renbutler:

    Exactly. Honestly it really never seemed like a good deal was out there. I like that they did something though. Having guys who can lock down the 7th, 8th and 9th innings in the playoffs will be good. Everyone has to understand that this isn’t necessarily the World Series year. The core of this team will be around for awhile with some parts continuing to improve.

  198. bdogg47

    Oh, and btw, we get Votto back!! Nice upgrade, huh??

  199. Abel

    If Brox pitches well for the rest of the year he could be a big help in keeping Chapman’s arm from falling off and he’ll be a solid option in the playoffs. Good trade.

    If he returns to last years form and we can’t trust him, which is very possible, then we clearly overpayed and it’s a bad trade.

    Simple as that. Can’t love it or hate it at this point.

  200. GoReds19

    Who would we get from the waiver trade that would upgrade our team?

  201. bdogg47

    A waiver trade could possibly be that of a veteran LH bench bat like Overbay. Can play OF and 1B/3B. Me likey that!

  202. BloodyHo

    Under the category of WHAT WERE THEY THINKING, has anyone considered what the Bucos did before the trading deadline? I wouldn’t classify any of their aquisitions as upgrades:

    Chad Qualls: 4.89 ERA, 1.77 WHIP
    Gaby Sanchez: .202/.250/.306
    Kyle Kaminski: 5.20 ERA, 1.56 WHIP in AA/AAA
    Travis Snyder: .250/.300/.556 with just 36 AB

    They gave up the #33 pick in the next amatuer draft.
    Brad Lincoln: 2.73 ERA, 1.10 WHIP
    Casey McGehee: .230/.297/.377

    • Abel

      Under the category of WHAT WERE THEY THINKING, has anyone considered what the Bucos did before the trading deadline?I wouldn’t classify any of their aquisitions as upgrades:

      Chad Qualls: 4.89 ERA, 1.77 WHIP
      Gaby Sanchez: .202/.250/.306
      Kyle Kaminski: 5.20 ERA, 1.56 WHIP in AA/AAA
      Travis Snyder: .250/.300/.556 with just 36 AB

      They gave up the #33 pick in the next amatuer draft.
      Brad Lincoln: 2.73 ERA, 1.10 WHIP
      Casey McGehee: .230/.297/.377

      Looks to me like a case of throwing you-know-what at the wall and seeing what sticks.

      Glad the Reds didn’t try the same approach, our team chemistry is clearly one thing we have going for us. Victorino and Pierre would have been marginal upgrades at best and would have required cutting loose Stubbs. Span was borderline but I was for it. Choo would have been the only clear huge improvement to the outfield but the cost may have been huge as well. I guess we’ll keep rolling on with what’s gotten us to the best record in MLB so far. If everyone else continues hitting once Votto comes back we’re a dangerous team.

  203. wally mo

    the only guys who get traded after the non-waiver deadline are guys who a) aren’t very good and nobody wants, or b) are making a lot of money.

    if the reds are going to add someone then, it would hopefully be from the second category. once a player passes through waivers, we could negotiate in a trade for the team paying them lots of money to pay some of that salary. but no other team would claim them because it would mean just eating their whole salary.

    for example, not that i’m advocating this for the reds, but alfonso soriano could easily be traded after the deadline. no team is going to take the rest of his contract, so he won’t get claimed. after he goes through waivers, the cubs can agree to pay 90% of his salary the next three years and probably get some very good pieces for him.

  204. Catalytic

    We needed a reliable righty in the bullpen. Neither Ondrusek or Arrendondo has shown that they can be counted on to get big outs late in games. Broxton can close down righties, Marshall lefties and Chapman get any three guys out that we need. A plus for our bullpen and we did not give up much. The Reds are already thinking about October; I like the trade.

  205. miredfan

    Speaking of trading prospects…..
    I recall some people bemoaned the trade of Zach Stewart in the Rolen deal. He supposedly had the potential to be a top of the rotation guy. Three years later, he’s still in the minors.

  206. chris.lewis5

    Marshall has fewer walks, more strikeouts, and a better WHIP than Broxton. If Dusty plans on using Broxton as a setup man how is this trade not a negative acquisition?