Saw this link on Lance McAlister’s site (don’t know anything about the mlbfanhouse site):

The Reds’ need to slash payroll, according to a major league source, could lead them to explore trading second baseman Brandon Phillips as well as right-handers Bronson Arroyo and Aaron Harang.

Cincinnati’s 2009 payroll was about $71 million. General manager Walt Jocketty said during a break Tuesday at the GM Meetings that he “might” have to move some high-salaried players to meet the 2010 goal.

snip…

The source above said the Reds plan to cut back to $65-70 million, which is a challenge in part because of raises due Harang ($11 million to $12.5 million), Arroyo (from $9.5 million to $11 million) and Phillips (from $4.75 million to $5 million).

With their salaries and so-so 2009 seasons, the pitchers would be hard to trade without the Reds taking on some of their pay. So Cincinnati’s best bet could be finding a taker for Phillips, who last season hit .276 with 30 doubles, 20 homers, 98 RBI and 25 stolen bases.

The source said the Reds would prefer to keep closer Francisco Cordero, who has two years and $25 million left on his deal.

I have no problem with moving high salaries, including Brandon Phillips. But where does it make sense to trade Harang or Arroyo or even Phillips and to keep Cordero?

And this is the second place I’ve seen talk of trading Votto. The only way the Reds should consider trading him is IF (and this isn’t my thoughts or beliefs) they believe they’re going to have to deal with his mental health issues (I don’t know what else to call it) every season.

When he plays, he’s a stud and I sure would hate to see him go.

UPDATE:In addition to the blurb in the comments from Fay, this was on Foxsports.com:

The Reds are not cutting payroll, but they are looking to free up dollars and create flexibility for other moves.

Thus, everyone on their roster is available except first baseman Joey Votto, outfielder Jay Bruce and third baseman Scott Rolen, according to one source with knowledge of the club’s thinking.

The team’s highest-priced players — closer Francisco Cordero, second baseman Brandon Phillips and right-handers Aaron Harang and Bronson Arroyo — all are in play.

144 Responses

  1. GRF

    The only way they move Votto is if, in addition to the issues you mention, the financial situation is so awful thye have to include him to convince someone to swallow all of Harang or Arroyo’s contracts. Obviously, I am really hoping that is not the case.

    Totally agree that Corderro would be the more logical choice to move, but maybe the market just is not there for high priced closers? Market has obviously changed from last season.

  2. Kevin Mitchell is Batman

    Would you trade Votto & either Harang or Arroyo to the Mets for Jose Reyes and a minor leaguer?

    • Travis G.

      Kevin Mitchell is Batman: Would you trade Votto & either Harang or Arroyo to the Mets for Jose Reyes and a minor leaguer?

      I don’t think I would, honestly, with the torn hamstring he suffered in May:

      He has since torn his hamstring muscle, which is expected to heal by itself. He is expected to have surgery on the tendon, and he and the Mets hope he will be healthy by spring training.

      His defense was never particularly stellar, but this sounds like a potentially career-changing injury for a player who relies so much on his speed. Even with a minor leaguer (their best prospect, Fernando Martinez, is rehabbing a torn meniscus himself), the Reds would be giving up a cost-controlled, potentially MVP-caliber bat and 200-odd quality innings for a what could amount to a slightly-less-expensive Brandon Phillips with less power and less range and a player who’s proven nothing yet at the ML level.

  3. justcorbly

    Don’t see a reason to move Cordero unless they can move all of his salary.

    I’m disenchanted with Harang to a salary dump works for me. Wouldn’t expect much else in return.

    Moving Arroyo creates a hole in the lineup. Still too many unknowns about next year’s staff to do that. We can have hopes for the young guys, not expectations.

  4. brublejr

    Of the four guys Phillips would by far be the easiest to move. Cordero, people would be interested, but I’m not sure at his price. Harang and Arroyo both could be very valuable to someone, but again at their price it would be hard to go get them. Of those two, I think Harang has the best potential for a great season, but people could look at Arroyo’s second half and think he could do that all next year.

    For me, trade Coco, Keep Harang, Arroyo, and Phillips. If they are way out of contention come July I wouldn’t be opposed to trading ALL three of them for a decent return.

  5. Drew Nelson

    Saw this on Yahoo sports:

    Darnell McDonald LF Refused minor league assignment – free agent

  6. Drew Nelson

    Shouldn’t we be asking why they need to cut 5-10 million?

  7. Bill Lack

    Because, for right or wrong, the Reds base their payroll on ticket sales (past and future) and attendance dropped from 2.05 to 1.75 last year?

  8. JasonL

    Blargh. If they would rather have Cordero than the other players, then the people running this team are stuck in the dark ages of baseball. Cordero is far and away the most expendable high-salaried player on the team. I would be totally willing to trade him and possibly send along $4-8 million to cover some of the $25 million left on the deal. That creates some payroll flexibility without giving up too much.

    I can’t remember the last time the Reds did something that made me feel good about being a fan.

    • shane

      And yet when we had Weathers closing you guys were screaming your heads off to ‘get a closer, no matter what it costs, we’re tired of losing games in the last inning or 2’

      JasonL: Cordero is far and away the most expendable high-salaried player on the team

      • Bill Lack

        shane: And yet when we had Weathers closing you guys were screaming your heads off to ‘get a closer, no matter what it costs, we’re tired of losing games in the last inning or 2′

        So, the only two solutions are a bad closer or one that costs $12M?

      • shane

        Not at all. hell I was happy with Weathers for the money he was making. was he great? No. But for the money he was and I was against paying Cordero the money he got right from the start.

        Bill Lack: So, the only two solutions are a bad closer or one that costs $12M?

      • Chad Dotson

        shane: And yet when we had Weathers closing you guys were screaming your heads off to ‘get a closer, no matter what it costs, we’re tired of losing games in the last inning or 2′

        Got a link to show us where someone screamed their heads off about that?

      • shane

        Nope, but I know I was reading it here. It’s your board so you should remember reading it too and you know how to look up info on your board better than I do. Am I gonna go to the trouble to look it up? Not a chance.

        Chad Dotson: Got a link to show us where someone screamed their heads off about that?

      • Chris

        shane: And yet when we had Weathers closing you guys were screaming your heads off to ‘get a closer, no matter what it costs, we’re tired of losing games in the last inning or 2′

        You just made that up. That NEVER happened on this site.

      • shane

        Chris: You just made that up. That NEVER happened on this site.

        From commenting guidesline:

        Here are the rules:

        –No profanity.
        –No personal attacks.
        –No harassment or demonization of a particular individual.
        –No disruptive behavior or off-topic remarks for their own sake.

        Seems to me that calling someone a liar is against at least 2 of those rules, and someone editing for the site should know that.

  9. Shawn

    Looking at that website, the article is written by someone named “Ed Price”. No idea who that is. Considering that Jay Mariotti is a featured writer, I would question their accuracy.

    • GregD

      Bill Lack: Because, for right or wrong, the Reds base their payroll on ticket sales (past and future) and attendance dropped from 2.05 to 1.75 last year?

      Yep, they continue to set payroll in response to ticket sales, instead of spending payroll to inspire ticket sales. If the Cardinals had stuck to their original budget last year, they would have never traded for Holliday. But they did some analysis to determine the extra income they would receive (more ticket sales & playoffs) from acquiring Holliday and made the deal.

      @Shawn:
      I noticed mlb.fanhouse.com releasing a lot of player transaction news at the July trading deadline this past season, and their news postings are pretty accurate. Rumors from any website are going to be less accurate because of the “anonymous source”. But I’m not aware of anything they reported that was just made up.

  10. jason1972

    Trading Votto under basically any circumstances right now would be lunacy on the Reds’ part.

  11. Drew Nelson

    If our owner can’t afford to keep a team together financially then he needs to remove himself and allow an owner with some deeper pockets to come into the picture. Wouldn’t it be sweet to have Mark Cuban as our owner.

    • Steve

      Have to say I agree with this.

      Drew Nelson: If our owner can’t afford to keep a team together financially then he needs to remove himself and allow an owner with some deeper pockets to come into the picture.

  12. Wire to Wire

    I think that having a good closer is very important especially with young SP. We have a lot more minor league depth at 2nd than SP or RP (Frasier!). With Phillips we might even be able to get a prospect and not have to pay their salary. Maybe we could get a nice young catcher or shortstop that could back up Hanigan or Janish in case of injury.

    • Dan

      Wire to Wire: I think that having a good closer is very important especially with young SP.

      Those of us who are advocating trading Cordero don’t disagree with you on this! But this does not mean you need to pay $12 million for one.

      Cordero’s contract is, in my view, the worst on the team… and I say that even recognizing that he’s been a darn good closer! I dare say that if you are only pitching 65 innings you CANNOT POSSIBLY be worth $12 million. You certainly can’t be worth 1/6th of your team’s payroll.

      If Cordero gets even the slightest bit injured or ineffective, he’ll be 100% untradeable. I think we need to capitalize on the fact that at least he’s been good these last few years, and try to get a little something for him.

      I’m open to any number of possibilities, but I think that Cordero for Kawakami makes a lot of sense for both the Reds and the Braves.

  13. JasonL

    @shane: I was doing no such thing. I don’t know that I was even aware of this site then. And, as Bill points out there are more options than crap or $12M. Anyway, the one year he was our primary closer, Weathers wasn’t that bad. He was actually pretty average in terms of save percentage. The problem was the rest of the bullpen.

    Also Fun Fact: Weathers 2007 33/39 in Save Opportunities
    Cordero 2008 34/40

    • GregD

      JasonL: @shane: Anyway, the one year he was our primary closer, Weathers wasn’t that bad. He was actually pretty average in terms of save percentage. The problem was the rest of the bullpen. Also Fun Fact: Weathers 2007 33/39 in Save OpportunitiesCordero 2008 34/40

      This.

      From 2007 to 2008, the difference in the bullpen wasn’t Weathers vs. Cordero. It was Cordero + Lincoln + healthy Bray in 2008 vs. Stanton + Coffey’s implosion in 2007.

    • shane

      Well JasonL, if you weren’t here then I’m not referring to you am I?

      JasonL: @shane: I was doing no such thing. I don’t know that I was even aware of this site then.

  14. Steve

    We should trade Cordero if we have the opportunity, and by that I mean if we don’t have to eat half or more of his salary.

    High-paid closers are a luxury that teams in our salary range can’t afford. It’s relatively easy to find replacements who can be close to as effective. Why we ever though David Weathers was that, I don’t know.

    But Nick Masset would be a possibility.

    Secondly, Coco Cordero had a career-year in 2009. He’s followed up great years with bad ones in the past. He is no sure thing to repeat last season. What we really don’t need is an ineffective, high-paid closer.

  15. Dan

    Well… OK… maybe Taveras and Lincoln have worse contracts in that they don’t even help the team win at all… Cordero is at least a good player.

    But man… $12 million? Way way way way too much for ANYONE who pitches 65 innings a season.

    • Travis G.

      Dan:$12 million?Way way way way too much for ANYONE who pitches 65 innings a season.

      That’s my thinking. And it’s a shame, too, because I really, really like knowing CoCo’s at the back of the bullpen.

  16. EKyRedsFan

    At this point, if Votto is traded it would be very difficult for me to even get out of bed, let alone drive 4 hours to a game next season. I guess it would depend on who was in the return deal. But to take a risk like that while the jury is still out on Yonder Alonso I think is very stupid. As for CoCo, I wouldn’t mind if he were dealt and I agree with the majority here: out of the four (Harang, Arroyo, Phillips), I’d rather see him dealt away. I don’t see what the problem is with giving a guy like Masset a shot in that role. He has exceeded our expectations in every other role. Obviously, one or more will not be here come Opening Day. I just hope Jocketty and the powers that be will make the right moves. Unfortunately, so far we haven’t been given much hope of that happening.

  17. EKyRedsFan

    Hasn’t Bill James stated that the majority of games aren’t won/lost in the 9th inning as much as in the 7th-8th innings? I think the Reds should concern themselves more with solidifying (or maintaining) the middle relief than worrying about the closer.

    • pinson343

      EKyRedsFan: Hasn’t Bill James stated that the majority of games aren’t won/lost in the 9th inning as much as in the 7th-8th innings?I think the Reds should concern themselves more with solidifying (or maintaining) the middle relief than worrying about the closer.

      The way we’ve solidified the middle relief IS with a good closer. I’m OK with trading Cordero, but only if we get a good relief pitcher (not necessarily an established closer) in return. Making Masset the closer opens up a hole in the 8th inning. I’m OK with making him closer, but only if we get someone to fill that hole. I agree that the 7th & 8th innings are just as important as the 9th, which is why you need bullpen depth, which we WON’T have if we trade Cordero and don’t pick up a proven quality arm for the pen.

      • EKyRedsFan

        pinson343:
        The way we’ve solidified the middle relief IS with a good closer.I’m OK with trading Cordero, but only if we get a good relief pitcher (not necessarily an established closer) in return. Making Masset the closer opens up a hole in the 8th inning.I’m OK with making him closer, but only if we get someone to fill that hole.I agree that the 7th & 8th innings are just as important as the 9th, which is why you need bullpen depth, which we WON’T have if we trade Cordero and don’t pick up a proven quality arm for the pen.

        I agree with you there. My point is that if you trade Cordero and bump Masset to the closer, in my opinion, you could find middle relievers that don’t cost $12MM/year to fill the 7th and 8th innings. Hell, you should be able to find a few MR’s for that kind of jack.

  18. GregD

    John Fay went straight to the source with some of these follow-up questions.

    “I mentioned that we’d be restricted as far as payroll,” Jocketty said. “We’ve been saying that all along. We won’t be active in the free agent market. We have to be creative.

    “But so little is going on up here as far as trades that people start speculating.”

    Jocketty said he does not have to trade players in order to make budget.

    “Not yet,” he said.

    There was speculation that Joey Votto could be included in a deal. That’s not going to happen.

    “Oh God, no,” Jocketty said.

    snip…

    If a new deal can’t be worked out with (Ramon) Hernandez, there’s a chance the club will pursue free agent catcher Miguel Olivo.

    “There are alternatives for that role,” Jocketty said.

    “Oh, God, no” ! That’s pretty funny, and that’s why “no comment” is usually an equally strong response.

  19. broadwaydave

    joey votto should be UNTOUCHABLE. if the reds trade him, i will become the yankees fan i should be and good-bye to the reds forever. say what you want about the yankees but by god they want to WIN.

  20. brublejr

    @GregD: Also in the article Fay says Wilma Mann retired while Hal McCoy was reporting she was let go. Also, he says that Mark Mann is leaving and will be replaced…

  21. Drew Nelson

    If they could get him say for a minor league deal type pay and such what about the Reds looking at bringing Austin Kearns back and putting him in LF?

  22. JasonL

    I’m glad to hear that Jocketty quote about Votto. Makes me sleep better.

  23. Glenn

    The Reds are not going to trade either Votto or Phillips that just all a bunch of blah..blah…blah brought on by a need for sports writers to feed a 24 hr news cycle. They may trade Harang or Arroyo, but not both. My guess is that due to 2 sub par years by Harang, it will be Arroyo who’s more likely to go.

  24. CarolinaReds

    If this team trades Phillips, Arroyo and/or Votto I will waste no time with this team in 2010! This is BS, last I heard the plan was to shoot for a win in 2010…but that’s what they said the last 2 years. I’m sick of it

  25. pinson343

    There is no reason to believe that the Reds are going into “fire sale” mode. We’ve known for some time that Phillips, Harang, and Arroyo are possible trade candidates. No way Votto is on the trading block, why on earth would he be ? The article is hype, as confirmed by John Fay’s speaking with WJ.

    The Brandon Philipps rumor has lit up the web with articles that “we” (the Mets, Twins, etc.) want him, not O. Hudson. Speaking of which, doesn’t it bother anyone that Hudson won the GG this year instead of BP ? The GG is a popularity contest (duh).

  26. pinson343

    All the article says pertaining to Votto is that the Reds have “a decision to make” at first base, mentioning Alonso.
    We all already knew about Alonso. The presence of Alonso does not mean trading Votto.

    It also says the pitchers had so-so 2009 years. Arroyo had a so-so year ?

    One thing in the article does bother me. WJ mentions how the Reds might have to shed salary if off-season ticket sales are low. If off-season ticket sales are low, and you do something like trade Brandon Phillips, the off-season sales will get lower. That’s the kind of thinking that Castellini criticized, and now he’s perpetuating the “lose and trade the expensive guys so you can keep on losing” mentality ?

  27. Dan

    You know what just hit me?

    Harang – Kullman

    Arroyo and Phillips – Krivsky

    Cordero – Jocketty

    Krivsky also brought in Hamilton for nothing, who then became Volquez.

    Where would we be now without Krivsky? He made the best trades the Reds have seen this decade.

  28. Steve Price

    The Reds will need to lose at least one of Harang-Arroyo-Cordero and it may take the inclusion of Phillips to make such a deal viable.

    Phillips is an underpaid player right now…but, won’t be next year. the other three are already overpaid and that will be worse next year.

    I think we would be best served dealing a combination of Cordero-Phillips for a young player (preferaby a shortstop) and take our chances with Frazier at 2b and Masset as closer.

    Defense will suffer at 2b this year while we see what Frazier will do. If he doesn’t work out defensively, Rolen should be gone after next year and Frazier can move there and be better offensively.

  29. Travis G.

    Krivsky also signed Cordero, Dan, but I do admire his work.

    I wasn’t just disappointed when Krivsky got fired, I was actually angry. He didn’t deserve that treatment at all, but I do like Jocketty. He’s certainly more fun to follow through the media, at least, because he’ll actually talk to the reporters.

    • Dan

      Travis G.: Krivsky also signed Cordero, Dan, but I do admire his work.

      Ah, you’re right, I forgot that. OK.

      And I do agree that Krivsky handed out some bad 2-year contracts, and had a bad eye for over-the-hill relievers that one year we were miraculously in contention before finishing 80-82.

      But his “buy low” trading skills were the best I’ve seen on this team, and that’s what it takes to oversee a serious turnaround for a bad team. (That plus good drafting.)

      I just don’t think Jocketty has that kind of boldness and vision. (Or is he being hamstrung by Castellini’s meddling?)

      I’m just so frustrated seeing this team and knowing that you can’t put together a great team on a $70 million payroll unless you are doing SOMETHING different and better than everyone else. And we just seem so conservative, cautious, by-the-book… it drives me nuts.

      The Jonny Gomes signing is the only clever and bold thing I’ve seen out of Jocketty, but that’s too minor to make much of a difference.

      • David

        Dan: Ah, you’re right, I forgot that. OK.And I do agree that Krivsky handed out some bad 2-year contracts, and had a bad eye for over-the-hill relievers that one year we were miraculously in contention before finishing 80-82.But his “buy low” trading skills were the best I’ve seen on this team, and that’s what it takes to oversee a serious turnaround for a bad team. (That plus good drafting.)I just don’t think Jocketty has that kind of boldness and vision. (Or is he being hamstrung by Castellini’s meddling?)I’m just so frustrated seeing this team and knowing that you can’t put together a great team on a $70 million payroll unless you are doing SOMETHING different and better than everyone else. And we just seem so conservative, cautious, by-the-book… it drives me nuts.The Jonny Gomes signing is the only clever and bold thing I’ve seen out of Jocketty, but that’s too minor to make much of a difference.

        I know you say buy low, but really what you are talking about is low risk/high reward deals. Willy Taveras was a buy low move to. The thought was Taveras wouldn’t be any worse than before. Sometimes low risk/high reward turns into low risk/low reward.

      • Dan

        David: I know you say buy low, but really what you are talking about is low risk/high reward deals. Willy Taveras was a buy low move to. The thought was Taveras wouldn’t be any worse than before. Sometimes low risk/high reward turns into low risk/low reward.

        I guess this is about what I mean. Well… in addition to “low risk” I think what “buy low” mainly means is “low cost.”

        Fast Willy should’ve been “low cost”… except that we wildly overpaid him (and guaranteed him a 2nd year and a 75% raise… unreal…)

        There was never anything “high reward” about Fast Willy though. Even his best-case-scenario (a lot of singles and steals) is really nothing to get all that excited about.

  30. David Kaiser

    I thought things were going to be different once mr. small market sold the team but guess we just went from I can’t spend my own money billionaire to another.guess I will spend whatever it takes is more concerned with how many more millions he can make with the reds than putting a winner on the field. say what you will about the yankees and I hate them but when stienbrenner bought the team they sucked and he spent his money on making them winners. once he accomplished that then he was able to get his own tv network and money from that and other ventures so he no longer had to spend his own money and instead is raking in the bucks plus spending to keep a winner.now we don’t expect this owner to spend yankee bucks but to slash the payroll instead of trying to make the team stronger makes no sense.attendance is down because the team sucks,start getting rid of players and team will suck worse so how will that help attendance and his bottom line?yea it makes perfect sense to get rid of your best player because he was depressed over the death of his father.lesson here is better to be hooked on drugs than have a enotinal issue.the team can send you to rehab and have you on the field in 30 days instead of actualy taking the time to deal with the problem like votto did. and what could they get for him?they are called prospects for a reason.get a new manager and sign holliday to play left and the reds could be contendes but that would mean spending and we can’t have that can we.such a shame the team I grew up loving is now an embarassment with no end in site.

  31. pinson343

    Krivsky (or whatever scouts he listened to) had a great eye for young talent, but also a penchant for two year contracts for bad and/or aging players, especially old relief pitchers.

    And of course the long-term contracts to Harang and Arroyo were his doing. The Harang signing was widely praised at the time, including by me, you just don’t what a pitcher is going to be like a few years down the road. The Arroyo signing also at first got mostly favorable reviews, though not by everyone on this site. Public opinion quickly went sour, once Arroyo’s performance declined.

    As usual, Cordero is the main whipping boy here. I don’t think we should have a $12M closer either, but he’s been the main reason our bullpen has gone from awful to decent, which is easily worth $12M. How do I reconcile those views ? As I said above, trade Cordero but get a quality, established reliever either in return or from somewhere else. The consensus here is that such a pitcher does not have to cost anywhere close to $12M.

  32. pinson343

    I’m a fan of Brandon Phillips and tried to get a bite on my complaint about his not getting the GG. How do the defensive metrics compare him and Hudson ?
    BP was part of 100 DPS, Hudson 70 something.

    Even as a fan of his, I agree that if he’s going to be traded, now’s the time. His salary goes way up in 2011. But I’d be upset if we didn’t get a quality middle infielder in return, preferably a SS and put Frazier at second.

  33. Travis G.

    I don’t think we’d get an established reliever in return for Cordero. After all, wouldn’t the other team just use that guy as their closer instead of the aging and expensive guy?

    I think Phillips is the most likely to be dealt because they’ve (presumably) got Frazier to take over for him and he’d fetch the most in return. The pitchers would all essentially be salary dumps, and the Reds would still have to find someone to pitch the innings they would have provided.

    • pinson343

      Travis G.: I don’t think we’d get an established reliever in return for Cordero. After all, wouldn’t the other team just use that guy as their closer instead of the aging and expensive guy?I think Phillips is the most likely to be dealt because they’ve (presumably) got Frazier to take over for him and he’d fetch the most in return. The pitchers would all essentially be salary dumps, and the Reds would still have to find someone to pitch the innings they would have provided.

      We don’t have to get an established reliever in return for Cordero. Just get something for him, in addition to salary relief. Then spend the money to get an established reliever, or trade for one, whatever. If you simply subtract Cordero from this bullpen, it doesn’t have enough depth. I don’t want to repeat the years of weak bullpens, they were a nightmare. It cost us the division in 2006.

  34. broadwaydave

    here’s the way i see it (after having taken big, long breaths into a paper bag, i have sufficiently calmed down):

    cordero is untradeable unless you’re dealing with someone who’s smoking dope

    phillips could bring some nice prospects and i think frazier is as ready to be a major league hitter as he’ll ever be. we give up a little defensively, but phillips slipped a little this year and he could be on the decline. so trade him.

    harang and arroyo are coming off the books after this year. we need depth in starting pitching until wood and leake can get ready. so keep them at least until mid-season.

    i might look like an idiot saying this but this team feels to me like we could be into something, maybe 85-90 wins.

  35. RiverCity Redleg

    Someone explain this to me:
    If the Reds (and the fans by extension) are not willing to pay Cordero (et al.) their salaries, why did they agree to them in the first place. Was it with the intent of unloading these players before their salaries escelated? The Reds financial situation is not materially different than it was a couple of years ago. If they knew that they could not afford those terms, why did they agree to them? Personally, I am much more concerned that the front office wants to cut payroll. To me, this alone shows their lack of forward thinking. But instead of being critical of this, we the fans seem to accept it and are arguing over which is the better way to make our team worse (i.e. do we dump Cordero or Phillips?). I will have to see proof that Castellini actually lost money for the year, before I will understand and accept a payroll deduction.

    • pinson343

      RiverCity Redleg: Someone explain this to me:
      Personally, I am much more concerned that the front office wants to cut payroll. To me, this alone shows their lack of forward thinking. But instead of being critical of this, we the fans seem to accept it and are arguing over which is the better way to make our team worse (i.e. do we dump Cordero or Phillips?). I will have to see proof that Castellini actually lost money for the year, before I will understand and accept a payroll deduction.

      I am too, and a number of the comments on this thread have raised this issue.

      • CeeKeR

        pinson343: I am too, and a number of the comments on this thread have raised this issue.

        I also agree. For years the Reds have been playing a game of perpetually dumping salary, getting “young talent” in return, and “playing for the future.” I really don’t want to see the Reds become the same team that my home state Pirates have become…and yet, I fear they may already be Pirates 2.0 – except without the beautiful ballpark that Pittsburgh plays in.

  36. Drew Nelson

    I believe Phillips is to much of a fan favorite to be traded. I don’t think our owner will permit because he will take “heat” over moving such a popular player with the fans and media. IF they move Cordero and have to include another player I see it being like Bruce or Sutton that while liked by the fans, isn’t the face of this franchise in the eyes of “joe” fan.

    • Steve Price

      Drew Nelson: believe Phillips is to much of a fan favorite to be traded

      I’m not as convinced Phillips is as much a fan favorite as many may think. As I recall (please correct me if I’m wrong), he labeled himself the face of the franchise then dogged many games this year.

      Before the ego trip, he regularly hustled. Now, he hustles after being called out.

    • EKyRedsFan

      Drew Nelson: I believe Phillips is to much of a fan favorite to be traded.I don’t think our owner will permit because he will take “heat” over moving such a popular player with the fans and media.IF they move Cordero and have to include another player I see it being like Bruce or Sutton that while liked by the fans, isn’t the face of this franchise in the eyes of “joe” fan.

      I still believe that Phillips is a fan favorite, but you lost me when you brought up trading Jay Bruce. You really lost me when you even mentioned Drew Sutton. If you walked up to the average joe Reds fan you mentioned, they wouldn’t know Drew Sutton from Adam. You had to be referring to Drew Stubbs, but still, trading either of those two is out of the question.

  37. Dan

    @Drew Nelson: Uhhh… did you just say “Bruce” and “Sutton” in the same breath? How’s that work?

  38. David

    Nobody has raised this point from what I’ve seen skimming down the list. If it has, I apologize.

    Jocketty said they are going to have to lower payroll to 65-71 million. Payroll was $73.6 million heading into last season. The Reds have about $70 million committed before arbitration to Miller, Gomes, Nix, Masset, Burton, and Owings. Add about five million for raises and the team is at about $75 million. This means the team is approximately 5 million over where the team would like to be. 5 million is nothing money in reality.

    Jocketty’s statement is an ultamatum to the fans i.e. “either support the team or we will have to cut payroll and have a less competitive team.” Rather than INCITING the fan base, Jocketty should consider EXCITING the fan base.

    ADD payroll. Make the team more competitive. More fans will come. More money will be made. I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.

  39. preach

    In the category of “Who am I?”:

    Due to his poor performance and high contract, NPR of Minnesota called him a bust, ESPN named him to their all-overpaid team, and Sports Illustrated named him as the only pitcher on their all bust team, noting he gave up one home run per every 11.9 batters, and this former Cincinnati Red is available for cheap! Our pitching issues are solved!

    • pinson343

      preach: In the category of “Who am I?”:Due to his poor performance and high contract, NPR of Minnesota called him a bust, ESPN named him to their all-overpaid team, and Sports Illustrated named him as the only pitcher on their all bust team, noting he gave up one home run per every 11.9 batters, and this former Cincinnati Red is available for cheap! Our pitching issues are solved!

      You must mean Uncle Milty, but he wasn’t paid enough to win any all-overpaid teams last year.

  40. Travis G.

    I wonder if there’s any way Jocketty could convince Dayton Moore to take Taveras off our hands in return for David DeJesus.

    That would save the Royals at least $1.2 million over the next two seasons (DeJesus is owed $4.7m in 2010 with a $6m option in 2011, with a $500k buyout) and give the Royals the nominal CF they lack. Obviously, the Reds would have to sweeten the pot (unless Moore’s as dumb as advertised), but DeJesus plays an outstanding LF (career 18.8 UZR/150) and boasts a solid .286/.358/.425 career line. He’d make a fine #2 hitter or provide another leadoff option, both of which we need.

    • Dan

      Travis G.: I wonder if there’s any way Jocketty could convince Dayton Moore to take Taveras off our hands in return for David DeJesus.That would save the Royals at least $1.2 million over the next two seasons (DeJesus is owed $4.7m in 2010 with a $6m option in 2011, with a $500k buyout) and give the Royals the nominal CF they lack. Obviously, the Reds would have to sweeten the pot (unless Moore’s as dumb as advertised), but DeJesus plays an outstanding LF (career 18.8 UZR/150) and boasts a solid .286/.358/.425 career line. He’d make a fine #2 hitter or provide another leadoff option, both of which we need.

      Are we sure DeJesus would really be better than Dickerson? They sound awfully similar to me (other than experience), and Dickerson is a ton cheaper.

  41. RiverCity Redleg

    Besides, Jay Bruce is every bit as popular as BP and is alot less likely to ever be traded, due to his higher upside and lower salary.

  42. Travis G.

    Haha, I think I outsmarted myself in my haste to find some use for Taveras’s contract.

    DeJesus and Dickerson sport very similar batting lines (.286/.358/.425 vs. .283/.383/.440), but Dickerson has thus far been much better in CF than LF (45.0 UZR/150 vs. 13.9), while DeJesus has been the opposite (4.9 UZR/150 in CF vs. 18.8 in LF). I think I’d just keep Dickerson, offer Gomes arbitration and release Willy T.

  43. Dan

    @Travis G.: Don’t get me wrong… I strongly support the thinking of trying to get anything useful for Willy!

    If any team out there might value him a little bit, I think KC is the right one to think of — the team that seems to systematically give the finger to OBP every chance they get! 😉

  44. pinson343

    Philipps brings some excitement, swagger, and color to what can be a dreary club. Trading him would hurt attendance, unless we got a dynamo in return, or, more importantly, someone who would help us win more ball games.

    Another thing. I’ve been on the fence about the Scott Rolen trade. I see the pluses and minuses. But to commit a lot of money to him and then cry poverty, puts a different light on that trade. In addition to all that we already gave up for Rolen, now it forces us to trade one of our better players ?

    • Travis G.

      pinson343: I’ve been on the fence about the Scott Rolen trade. I see the pluses and minuses.But to commit a lot of money to him and then cry poverty, puts a different light on that trade.In addition to all that we already gave up for Rolen, now it forces us to trade one of our better players ?

      Based on what I’ve heard, the Reds aren’t really paying Rolen much more — if any more — this year than they would have paid Encarnacion. That’s why they gave up both those pitchers, assuming my source’s sources are correct.

  45. preach

    Yes, Pinson you win the Milty prize. That entry was written while he was the beloved ace of the Reds.

    I also feel the same way you do regarding the money thing after they signed Rolen. If you were that strapped, why make the deal? Rolen is still a solid player, but only for a season or two more at most. That would indicate that more deals would need to happen quickly if the team was serious about being a contender anytime in the near future….but we can’t make the deals because we are broke…..huh?

  46. preach

    @Travis G.:

    I’m assuming that Pinson is considering those young arms to be part of the cost, I know I was. It’s a lot of money for something short term if you are not willing to put other pieces around him.

  47. Travis G.

    But the point is, guys, I’m not sure it is a lot of money. At least, not much more than they already had on the books, and Rolen’s just a better all-around player than the guy he’s replacing at quite possibly the same payroll outlay.

    • pinson343

      Travis G.: But the point is, guys, I’m not sure it is a lot of money. At least, not much more than they already had on the books, and Rolen’s just a better all-around player than the guy he’s replacing at quite possibly the same payroll outlay.

      I like Rolen and think he’s a good fit for this team, that’s why I’ve been on the fence. But how much are we paying him ? Someone must know.

  48. Alan Horn

    I understand it is 11 million per season for Rolen and 4 million per season for Traveras.
    The 2 of them account for roughly 15 million of next years’s payroll.

    • pinson343

      Alan Horn: I understand it is 11 million per season for Rolen and 4 million per season for Traveras.
      The 2 of them account for roughly 15 million of next years’s payroll.

      ouch

    • Dan

      Alan Horn: I understand it is 11 million per season for Rolen and 4 million per season for Traveras.The 2 of them account for roughly 15 million of next years’s payroll.

      Yes, those are the salaries, but how much are we getting from Toronto to cover part of Rolen’s salary? That’s what no one seems to know.

      • Travis G.

        Dan:
        Yes, those are the salaries, but how much are we getting from Toronto to cover part of Rolen’s salary?That’s what no one seems to know.

        I work in the media, so I do hear things from People Who Know, and I’ve heard Toronto has sent anywhere from half the difference between Encarnacion’s and Rolen’s 2010 salaries to the entire difference. (The Reds were on the hook for $4.75m to EdE next season, which would have been near impossible to shed this winter.)

        The Jays sent enough cash to cover all of last year’s salary, and I know as a near certainty that they’re covering at least some of next year’s. How much, exactly, remains a mystery.

      • pinson343

        Travis G.:
        I work in the media, so I do hear things from People Who Know, and I’ve heard Toronto has sent anywhere from half the difference between Encarnacion’s and Rolen’s 2010 salaries to the entire difference. (The Reds were on the hook for $4.75m to EdE next season, which would have been near impossible to shed this winter.)The Jays sent enough cash to cover all of last year’s salary, and I know as a near certainty that they’re covering at least some of next year’s. How much, exactly, remains a mystery.

        Then Al said the Jays took on “some of EdE’s money.” Actually, these statements aren’t in contradiction, if “some of” is large enough to pay EE’s 2009 salary after the trade and a chunk of his 2010 salary.

    • pinson343

      al: From what I understand the Jay’s aren’t covering any of Rolen’s 2010 salary.They paid all of his 2009 money and took on some of EdE’s money.Cot’s Contracts (scroll down)
      http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01/cincinnati-reds_24.html

      Al, I’m still a little confused. I understand about Rolen: we paid none of his 2009 salary and we’ll pay all of his 2010 salary. When you say “took on some of EE’s money,” do you mean that for 2009 the Jays paid some money for him but not his full salary after the trade ? I presume they’re paying his full salary in 2010.
      and his full salary this year.

  49. Sultan of Swaff

    It appears Walt might be putting his plans on fast forward. All this chatter is what I was expecting at the trade deadline. If he’s serious, then he is making a judgement call that fielding the same team next year and expecting improvement at 3 positions (3b, Rf, CF) still won’t get us over the top. Can’t say I disagree, but it will suck to unload a starting pitcher w/o a surefire replacement who can give you 200 innings. Still, I’m willing to go all in on the rebuilding this offseason because, for once, I have real faith that this young core can get the job done. That, and I believe there is a window of opportunity in the division over the next few years.

  50. broadwaydave

    @Sultan of Swaff: sultan, i have to agree with that. if we’re going all in, then now’s the time to do it. for 2010 Masset can replace Cordero, it won’t be hard to match Harang’s performance over the last two years for a lot cheaper, Arroyo’s only good for half a season anyway and i think getting frazier a year’s experience can only be a good thing.

    not to mention the major-league ready players we should be getting in return for any or all of those guys, including a starting pitcher. think the dodgers would be willing to part with billingsley in exchange for phillips. they’re kinda down on him right now.

    then you take all that money moving into 2011 and sign brandon webb or somebody of that ilk.

  51. jason1972

    I have to think that Homer Bailey pushed himself onto the ‘untouchable’ list in 2009.

  52. broadwaydave

    then you’re looking at a rotation of webb, bailey, cueto, volquez, and i’m betting mike leake will be a go in 2011 as well. not too shabby if you ask me.

  53. GRF

    It would be so nice to spend this offseason thinking about who we might add instead of who we might lose.

    • preach

      GRF: It would be so nice to spend this offseason thinking about who we might add instead of who we might lose.

      Amen.

  54. preach

    @Travis G.:
    But it is a lot of money for a veteran player with only one or two solid seasons in him if you are not going to add the other pieces to make this team competitive this off season.

    I may be in the minority here, but one decent position player and one arm would be enough to win this division. If the lineup issues can be eliminated and Bruce hits near what his potential, I think we may not be in too terrible shape. If you made the move for Rolen, you are almost forced into making some other moves, otherwise getting Scott was pointless.

    • Travis G.

      preach: @Travis G.: But it is a lot of money for a veteran player with only one or two solid seasons in him if you are not going to add the other pieces to make this team competitive this off season.

      I may be in the minority here, but one decent position player and one arm would be enough to win this division. If the lineup issues can be eliminated and Bruce hits near what his potential, I think we may not be in too terrible shape. If you made the move for Rolen, you are almost forced into making some other moves, otherwise getting Scott was pointless.

      I completely agree with all of this. It’s a darn shame Volquez got hurt, because this team is pretty close to being good. Boosting payroll just a smidge could really make a big difference in this market environment. You gotta wonder whether Jocketty wants to shed one of the big salaries to take advantage of that (the old “two steps forward, one step back,” as it were).

    • pinson343

      preach: @Travis G.:
      But it is a lot of money for a veteran player with only one or two solid seasons in him if you are not going to add the other pieces to make this team competitive this off season.
      I may be in the minority here, but one decent position player and one arm would be enough to win this division. If the lineup issues can be eliminated and Bruce hits near what his potential, I think we may not be in too terrible shape. If you made the move for Rolen, you are almost forced into making some other moves, otherwise getting Scott was pointless.

      yep

    • pinson343

      preach: @Travis G.:
      But it is a lot of money for a veteran player with only one or two solid seasons in him if you are not going to add the other pieces to make this team competitive this off season.
      I may be in the minority here, but one decent position player and one arm would be enough to win this division. If the lineup issues can be eliminated and Bruce hits near what his potential, I think we may not be in too terrible shape. If you made the move for Rolen, you are almost forced into making some other moves, otherwise getting Scott was pointless.

      And Scott was on the “untouchable” list. What sense does that make if we’re giving up on 2010 ?

  55. WORLD

    Walt J. is a sly guy. He’s laid pretty much low for a year and one-half and now is going to show that he is in control. That’s why the Mann story is so fascinating. Look when it all happened. Right after the Series. And maybe you have to wonder if the George Grande sudden exit was something that was totally his idea.

    Who’s next? The Skipper? He can’t feel too comfortable being a lame duck. Arroyo? Gone. Coco? Gone if someone will take him. The second sacker? How much does he make? Gone. Harang. Gone.

    Big Bob hired Walt and gave him an ax to wield.

    Stay tuned Sports Fans.

    • RedinFla

      WORLD: Walt J. is a sly guy. He’s laid pretty much low for a year and one-half and now is going to show that he is in control. That’s why the Mann story is so fascinating. Look when it all happened. Right after the Series. And maybe you have to wonder if the George Grande sudden exit was something that was totally his idea. Who’s next? The Skipper? He can’t feel too comfortable being a lame duck. Arroyo? Gone. Coco? Gone if someone will take him. The second sacker? How much does he make? Gone. Harang. Gone.Big Bob hired Walt and gave him an ax to wield.Stay tuned Sports Fans.

      We’ll wait and see how much of this “inside” information actually happens… 😯

    • Chris

      WORLD: Walt J. is a sly guy. He’s laid pretty much low for a year and one-half and now is going to show that he is in control. That’s why the Mann story is so fascinating. Look when it all happened. Right after the Series. And maybe you have to wonder if the George Grande sudden exit was something that was totally his idea.

      I do not the GM hires or fires announcers.

  56. Padmadfan

    I’m a Padres fan and I want Phillips on my team in the worst way. Let’s just start off by saying I don’t think anyones dumb enough to take Harang, Arroyo or Cordero unless it’s a salary swap for an equally over-paid player. So let’s just kill that dream right off.

    You need pitching and we got loads of it. Heath Bell is a 40 save closer whose making less than 2 million. Our bullpen is deep enough to cut him loose. If you cant trade Cordero then make the bullpen the strength of your team. With those two your playing 7 inning games.

    We can trade Chris Young. Until this season he was a very effective pitcher, some minor injuries and a ball off the head courtesy of Pujols screwed his season. But he could easily Ace your staff. The bad thing is it wont reduce your payroll.

    Phillips isn’t worth a top pitching prospect. If you want rookies, It’d be Tim Stauffer, Wade Leblanc or Adam Russell. Any two.

  57. Tom Diesman

    @pinson343: Apparently, that is being “sly”. I agree not a lot of sense being made by the current regime. They need to make some solid moves this winter to restore the fans confidence in the organization. The years of the Reds being losers is starting to pile up pretty quick and fan apathy is beginning to set in and showed up in last seasons attendance numbers.

  58. jason1972

    @JasonL: Uh oh, that won’t go over well here at Adam Dunn Nation.

    😀

  59. Mr. Redlegs

    Toronto is NOT paying any of Rolen’s salary in 2010, which is why the Reds had to fork over Stewart. And THAT comes from the inside the Reds’ operations department. There was a huge outburst at Jocketty from the development people and scouts over Rolen and dealing Stewart. Jocketty made it clear: It’s what Castellini wanted—Rolen. Get the deal done. And when the minority owners found out about the Rolen money for 2010, they went insane because of the $16 million deficit for 2009 with 2010 looking worse.

    • David

      Mr. Redlegs: Toronto is NOT paying any of Rolen’s salary in 2010, which is why the Reds had to fork over Stewart. And THAT comes from the inside the Reds’ operations department. There was a huge outburst at Jocketty from the development people and scouts over Rolen and dealing Stewart. Jocketty made it clear: It’s what Castellini wanted—Rolen. Get the deal done. And when the minority owners found out about the Rolen money for 2010, they went insane because of the $16 million deficit for 2009 with 2010 looking worse.

      While I don’t doubt that you know someone from inside the Reds’ operations department, I doubt the validity of the information coming from that source. The best writers in the country covering the Reds couldn’t get at the information your claimed source provided you.

      If the person is leaking the info to you, then you may want to either tell them to stop talking or if they are providing you with confidential info, I’d stop filtering the information yourself. If I were the Reds’ brass and stumbled upon leaked info, I’d fire the source in an instant.

      I think this is a classic example of a game of telephone from an underling of an underling of an underling. Bottom line is, there are very few people in the know, and those people aren’t stupid enough to proliferate the information.

    • Chris

      Mr. Redlegs: Toronto is NOT paying any of Rolen’s salary in 2010, which is why the Reds had to fork over Stewart.

      That part does sound backward. Regardless, it seems we have our own little Steinbrenner, minus the willingness to spend. Sweet.

  60. preach

    The validity of defensive metrics is about to be called into question…..

  61. TheNatural

    @Mr. Redlegs: That makes zero sense. Toronto paying Rolen’s 2010 salary would be the reason we would give them Stewart, not the other way around.

  62. MikeC

    Arroyo was 4th in the NL in innings pitched last year, tied for 4th in wins and tied for 7th in quality starts. He may not be a top notch pitcher, but he has pitched 200+ innings 4 years in a row for the Reds.
    It seems he ought to be worth something beyond dumping slary.

  63. Mr. Redlegs

    For the Jays to take EE and his salary, they would NOT pay any of Rolen’s salary. They didn’t want EE. They were willing to eat some of Rolen’s salary in 2010. The Reds made the deal contingent on them taking EE. The Jays countered for Stewart. Castellini said get Rolen, make the deal. I should have been clearer.

    And the Toronto Globe and Mail reported shortly after the trade that the Jays would not be paying any of Rolen in 2010. MY source in Reds ops said that was true when it was published. McCoy also has a source in the front office who told him Rolen was being paid fully by the Reds and I think McCoy has written that, as well.

  64. Mr. Redlegs

    @David: Yeah, who were those writers? It’s been reported the Jays are not paying on Rolen in 2010.

    And you know nothing about sourcing. I know exactly who my source is, and McCoy knows his. These guys are not underlings. We know, you don’t. There’s always someone willing to talk. Look at Bob Woodward. It’s amazing how many people talk to the guy. Why? People have their own reasons, but for the most part people are natural gossips.

    • David

      Mr. Redlegs: @David: Yeah, who were those writers? It’s been reported the Jays are not paying on Rolen in 2010.And you know nothing about sourcing. I know exactly who my source is, and McCoy knows his. These guys are not underlings. We know, you don’t. There’s always someone willing to talk. Look at Bob Woodward. It’s amazing how many people talk to the guy. Why? People have their own reasons, but for the most part people are natural gossips.

      Did you just compare yourself to Bob Woodward? 😯

      I’ve got a source. I can’t tell you who. She told me Taveras realizes he’s about as useful as a poopy flavored lollipop, and so the Reds aren’t paying any of Willy Taveras’ 2010 salary. It’s a wink wink deal because it would violate the CBA and the MLBPA would be pissed.

      Wow – I realized how easy it is for someone to spread rumors claiming they have a super secret source inside the Reds’ organization.

  65. jason1972

    Mr. Redlegs sounds like an internet conspiracy theorist with his super secret sources that no one else knows about.

  66. broadwaydave

    oh how i tire of this thread and these assinine speculations. i’ll see you guys when somebody actually gets traded or signed.

  67. Dan

    Mr. R. may be smug and condescending (my main complaints about him), but I’ve come to believe his sources are real. He’s had some info that he couldn’t have had any other way. (The only one I remember offhand was that he know that Owings was the PTBNL in the Dunn deal well before it was announced.)

    I’d say I don’t often agree with his opinions on how to run the Reds, but when it comes to straight-up info from the inside, I tend to trust what he has to say.

  68. pinson343

    On another note, congratulations to you Bengal fans out there on another win over the Steelers. I’m from NY and have always been a Giants fan, the Bengals didn’t even exist when I became a football fan. But I’ve gradually adopted the Bengals as my AFC team. I like Carson Palmer, and I got upset the year he got hurt in the playoffs against the Steelers. I felt the Bengals would have won the game with him. Instead the Steelers became loud mouth Super Bowl champs, with a lot of help from the referees against Seattle.

    The Giants are having a bye week, I’m using it to lick my wounds after 4 straight losses. The loss to San Diego last Sunday was brutal, I felt (almost) as badly as after the Reds have a tough loss.

    Hey if the Giants can turn it around maybe there’ll be a Gaints-Bengals Super Bowl, that would be my dream matchup.

  69. nckdmss

    To the Reds: Pat “the Bat” Burrell ($9 in ’10).

    To the Rays: Coco Cordero + $. ($12 in ’10, $12 in ’11, $12 (?) club option in ’12 and a full no trade clause…).

    They need a legit closer to improve the bullpen. We need a LF and someone who might improve the offense. Now, Burrell sucks at defense, but GABP/the NL presents a nice bounce back opportunity for his hitting stats. Oh, and he comes off the books after the season.

    Thoughts?

  70. David

    Feel for you Pinson. At least after the Reds lose, they have a game the next day. If I had to wait two weeks after a Reds loss, I’d lose my mind.

  71. WORLD

    Pat the Bat sucks on ice. You guys would bury him in a couple weeks. My guess is that he doesn’t play in ’10.

    And loved the Corpus Juris Sec. stuff Your Honor.

  72. Mr. Redlegs

    @jason1972: Mr. Redlegs sounds like an internet conspiracy theorist with his super secret sources that no one else knows about.

    And yet, I also nailed Bryan Price three weeks before he was hired while some of you pined for Ted Power and lazy Mario Soto (who was never interviewed, btw), the changes in the front office with Bavasi taking over development and Bonifay overseeing scouting, was the first to point out the Reds’ financial crisis back in early summer, told you about the minority ownership upheaveal, and in case I missed this one. . .

    The front office and ownership have told Dusty Baker he will be “rewarded” with a contract extension if the Reds win in 2010.

  73. Mr. Redlegs

    @Dan:

    When do I express opinions on how the Reds should be run? That’s not my style. Neither fans nor media will change ownerships or the way front offices are operated, so I don’t waste time or breath on the fruitless.

    Now, a lot of my perspective IS attempting to explain how things operate within the environment and why certain thinking and approaches are what they are, regardless of your own strong opinions. Fans don’t like hear the logic and reasoning because it goes against their own mindsets, which are usually based off what, their own personal experience with owners, management, coaches, players and scouts?

    I have almost 34 years of experience in pro baseball and football. You know the standard capacities of an organization or team. Just in the past week you guys here at RLN have discussed—passionately at times—some things we addressed and answered correctly at Red Letter Daze weeks ago because they were foreseeable, predictable, SOP.

    So it’s fairly amusing when I come onto RLN, Red Reporter or Fay’s blog and make counter comments that ultimately become fact or reason and my presentations are so easily dismissed because you were caught up in smugness and condescension instead of the core message.

    When that happens, I usually get to come back at some later point and say, “told you so, knuckleheads.”

    • Dan

      Mr. Redlegs: @Dan: When do I express opinions on how the Reds should be run? That’s not my style.

      Your opinion is that OBP is overrated and that anyone who values it heavily in evaluating players is a know-nothing stat-geek who only knows fantasy baseball, isn’t it?

      There’s one that I strongly disagree with you on.

      As for the condescending attitude… I for one do try to separate your information from your tone. Your tone usually pisses the crap out of me. At the same time, I tend to take your info as valid, or at least having some basis in reality.

  74. GregD

    @Dan: Like how Dave Duncan is the pitching coach, being groomed to take over the managers job next year?

    @shane: You’re asking people to prove a negative. If you think folks here did make that exclamation, there’s a keyword search box in the upper righthand corner of this website. Prove that it exists. You have multiple people telling you it doesn’t.

  75. shane

    GregD: your making that up. I never asked anyone to prove anything. I made a statement based on memory that I believe is true. I just don’t like being called a liar by someoen unwilling to prove that I’m lieing. And I didn’t make up those rules, they are posted in the commenting guidelines. Calling someone a liar, with or without proof, is in my opinion a personal attact. This board runs one hell of a double standard. And yes, I know, here comes the childish “I pay the bills and I’ll do whjat I want”, but that doesn’t make it right.

    • GregD

      If you don’t wish to discuss this publicly, Chad provides his e-mail address. Otherwise, I respectfully disagree with you. The messages you leave in a public forum are open for discussion and debate amongst anyone with internet access.

      I’m not trying to start anything. I’m trying to understand how, if I wanted to prove that statements were not made, how could I prove it?

  76. GregD

    Making it up? No, I was taking it from earlier comments you made.

    shane: Nope, but I know I was reading it here. It’s your board so you should remember reading it too and you know how to look up info on your board better than I do. Am I gonna go to the trouble to look it up? Not a chance.

    What did you mean to say by the bolded part?

    • shane

      It isn’t your board so it obviously wasn’t directed at you so it’s none of your business.
      Quit trying to start $hit.

      GregD: What did you mean to say by the bolded part?

  77. jason1972

    @Mr. Redlegs:

    You get dismissed because you behave like a douchebag, not because of your predictions one way or the other. If you have experience in pro sports, it’s obviously not in Public Relations based on your personality (unless you are in fact Marty Brennaman, then we’d have a frame of reference for your boorish attitude). Or maybe it’s just that the anonymity of the internet gives you a forum for expressing your frustrations. Either way I tend to skip your posts because I find pretentious people tiring.

  78. shane

    Why do you feel the need to prove ANYTHING at all??
    Respectfully disagree and then drop it.

  79. preach

    Gentlemen:

    This is getting a bit too personal on many levels. Let’s just drop this conversation. Truly this isn’t accomplishing anything.

    In fact, I would prefer that no one even responds to my post and that we just go on.

    So….I agree with World, pass on Burrell at all costs. And yes, Pinson: I’m glad I am a Bengals’ fan at present. It is about time the games in December will mean something.

  80. Mr. Redlegs

    @Dan: Average OBP in MLB this year was .333. Now look up how many players with qualifying ABs topped that average. Tell us how many players there are in MLB. Tell us how many teams. Tell us how every flipping team team can make out a lineup that satisfies all the people drunk on OBP.

  81. Mr. Redlegs

    @jason1972: You must be allergic to information, but thanks for the nickname. Original, too.

  82. RC

    Mr. Redlegs on Oct. 3, 2009:

    “Duncan is the guy Jocketty wants and he has the opportunity now, not next year, so he created that opening by firing Pole. But there’s a caveat, and an interesting one: Duncan serves as pitching coach this year, sets up the pitching program for the entire organization, replaces Baker as manager in 2011, brings in his own staff with a pitching coach who will carry out his program.

    Under that scenario, it makes no sense to remove Jacoby now. That would mean three different hitting instructors in just over two seasons. Make the changes next year when you clean house.

    I think they’re getting Big Dunc, that Jocketty discussed it with him this past week, and there are plans for him far bigger than just pitching coach of the Reds.”

  83. Mr. Redlegs

    @RC: And what happened? Duncan got his issues solved with the Cardinals minor leagues, LaRussa said he would stay as manager and the Reds possibility became irrelevant.

    Happens all the time as these things play out, especially when everyone can get together after the season.

    Just like today with the Redskins and Jon Gruden. He turned down replacing Jim Zorn in the middle of the season because he was watching his high school kid play football for the first time in his life. Gruden said he wasn’t going anywhere this fall.

    But the Redskins thought they had Gruden locked up for the next five years. They were a good fit. But today he re-ups with ESPN in a deal that doesn’t permit him to coach in 2010.

    Redskins never saw that happening. They are floored. Back to Mike Shanahan now.

    Things happen, things change. Where’s this stuff written in stone, and why do you think it should be? What’s your point?

  84. Mr. Redlegs

    @RC: But hey, RC, very nice that you took all that time and used all that energy to go through my postings to find one for an irrelevant point of some nature. Seriously, I’m flattered.

  85. Dan

    @Mr. Redlegs: The Reds scored 673 runs this year (NL average 718). That was 11th out of 16 teams.

    The Reds had a team OBP of .318 (NL average .331). That was 14th out of 16 teams.

    The pitching/defense were, overall, just about league average (allowed 723 runs, NL average 727 runs allowed).

    So overall, the pitching/defense were good enough to be competitive. The Reds were bad this year because they didn’t score enough runs.

    My point is not that 100% of their players need to have an OBP that’s above average. My point is that it needs to become a greater priority for the team. Whenever they sign or trade for someone, I want OBP to be a significant factor in the decision. Especially with Janish looking like he’s going to get a lot of plate appearances, and with Bruce and Phillips being somewhat OBP-challenged (and with the chance that Taveras may bat now and then)… we really need to get some on-base guys throughout the rest of the lineup, as much as possible.

    So when we were looking for catchers, for example, I just couldn’t get behind Miguel Olivo, who has a career OBP of .278 — that’s atrocious! I know that catcher is an important defensive position, and I know he hit a lot of HR’s, but .278? To me, that would’ve been a step in the wrong direction.

    Getting on base matters, a LOT — for this team more than most, given the way it’s currently set up.

  86. RC

    No, I remember this very well. Didn’t strain myself at all.

    I remember it because I found it very odd that someone with all this “insider” access would post inside information on the big ol’ WWW that, if true, would have gotten the Reds in dutch with MLB. Inside information that, if the office saw it, would most likely cost a guy their access to such.

    It just trips my alarm, cynical jerk that I am. That’s alls I’m sayin’.

  87. Mr. Redlegs

    @RC: How would giving out insider info cost a reporter access? Did McCoy, who based his career on insider sources, ever get his credential pulled? Never. Teams cannot pick which reporters are credentialed no more than the White House can say who covers them. The media organizatin, MLB and BBWAA would get that prejudice overturned in about 1.3 seconds. And tampering? Pfft. Prove it. There’s a hundred ways these guys get around tampering.

  88. Mr. Redlegs

    @Dan: Totally agree with you about scoring more runs and improving OBP. But as I stated earlier, there are 30 teams vying for these players, of which there are roughly 60-70 who are above the average. Many of them are tied up with their existing teams. That reduces the field further, driving up demand and cost of these players.

    So when you talk trades, go down a list of the player’s abilities and weigh all factors, not just one. Some of his positives might outweigh a few of his negatives and those positives fit a team’s need. A guy like Hernandez fits that description with the Reds.

    So when fans drunk on OBP look at a player and all they can see is OBP, ask yourself: what else does this guy bring to the table? That’s how he’s being measured by front offices. OBP is just one element out of 6-7 they’re measuring.

    • Dan

      Mr. Redlegs: @Dan: OBP is just one element out of 6-7 they’re measuring.

      I totally agree with you on that. I just think that OBP is a particularly important element. It’s not fair to dismiss it as fantasy baseball stuff or stat-geek stuff — it has a very real link to runs scored.

      I would argue that OBP was the worst thing about the 2009 Reds.

      And by the way, I do think you’re artificially limiting the number of players who you’re saying had an above-average OBP by restricting your list to players with “qualifying AB’s.” There are a lot more players than that out there. In particular, at catcher, there are very few who get 502 plate appearances (or whatever the value is). That doesn’t mean we can’t sign them and use them for half of our two-headed catching monster. (It’s a moot point now…)

  89. RC

    “Pfft”, eh? Fine. I will apply Occam’s Razor and move along…

  90. broadwaydave

    occam’s razor makes an appearance on redleg nation! and here i thought i was wasting my time reading the little catfight we had going. occam’s razor! o excellent motion.