BP revealed that he’s been playing with a fractured wrist, which can’t be pleasant:

Phillips revealed for the first time after Monday night’s 6-3 win over the Pirates that he’s been playing with a fractured left wrist. And he plans to keep playing.

“Little do people know and they don’t really pay attention to the details, I played through injury all year this year,” Phillips said. “I broke my thumb and right now, I’m playing with a fractured wrist that people don’t even know about. I’m here just grinding it out and finishing the season.”

And we’re all eternally grateful, BP. We all know Phillips will do whatever it takes to sacrifice himself for the team, right?

On Aug. 15 vs. the Nationals, Phillips was hit on the left wrist by a fastball thrown by J.D. Martin and came out of the game. At first it was diagnosed as a deep bone bruise and he missed a couple of games.

“I still think he hit me on purpose,” Phillips said of Martin. “I wrote his name inside my hat.”

Regarding Martin, Phillips vowed to “get him back in some way,” meaning via a home run or big hit and not with a fight.

Thoughts?

UPDATE: It appears that Phillips was being a bit overly dramatic when he said hie wrist was broken. He’s not admitting that it’s not. See the whole story here:

Brandon Phillips was backpedaling Tuesday like a defensive back covering Chad Ochocinco.
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It turns out that Phillips is not playing with a fracture in his left wrist, as he said Monday after the Reds’ doubleheader.

“My wrist is not broken,” Phillips said. “So I didn’t mean to say broken. I know I didn’t say broken. I said fractured. I didn’t know fractured and broken were the same thing. My wrist, it feels like it’s fractured.

“The last time I took an X-ray, they said there is nothing broken. … But it feels like it’s broken. My wrist really does bother me.”

I’m not a Brandon Phillips fan, I think he’s a good defensive, average offensive (good for his position) player. But his on-field laziness and stuff like this just set me off.

87 Responses

  1. RiverCity Redleg

    Say what you will about BP, but the man’s a gamer.

  2. per14

    The “I wrote his name inside my hat” comment broke me up. That’s funny.

    And good for BP on playing through the injury. I hope he gives it some time to completely heal though. I’ve broken my wrist and it can take months to get right if you don’t give it time to rest.

  3. The Mad Hatter

    I believe he also stubbed a toe early this season and played through that as well. Then there was the broken finger nail after that that caused him to struggle early in the season but that was caused by sliding into second base and Chase Utley tagged him hard intentionally and his name is next to Martin’s on his hat. Seriously if you hurt and not playing as well as you can sit down, go on the DL and try again next season. Excuses don’t cut it at this level. I’d love to see him traded this season at the peak of his value before the big part of contract kicks in. We celebrate this guy like he’s the next best thing to Joe Morgan when he’s a .260 hitter with power.

  4. preach

    Well, he probably is the next best thing to Joe Morgan that we have had at second base since Joe Morgan.

    Yeah, it did seem a little less than humble to mention the injury in the post game interiview, but I’m sure it has affected him quite a bit. My guess is that he was on track for another 30/30 season.

    I like having Phillips around and our infield defense is looking very solid currently in large part because of him.

    I also think it would be better for the team and him personnally, whether he believes it or not, to get him in the proper spot in the order.

    Sometimes injuries force guys to try new things like shooting the ball the other way that once they regain their health they are more complete ball players. I hope this will be the case with Brandon.

  5. Sultan of Swaff

    You’d like him a lot more if he were a SS with power and gold glove defense.

  6. Sultan of Swaff

    And Janish is ticking me off. With his decent play of late, he’s confusing Uncle Walt about who our SS should be.

  7. David

    I really, really don’t understand why certain people disdain BP. “Oh, I don’t dislike him, I just…” That’s loaded. The guy’s a gold glover with one 30/30 season under his belt and what will be two 20/20 years. He’s entering his prime right now.

    I love how the same people who defend Dunn’s seeming lack of enthusiasm/effort rip BP for the same. Talk about being hypocritical.

    Bottom line, gold glove defense 95 times out of 100, 81 RBI, and 20/20 out of your second basemam is gravy. If the Reds are going to win, then BP has to be a part of it – plain and simple.

    But oh wait, “we have Todd Frazier – his OBP is high in AA and AAA.” Sure, some spin yarns that he even carved his bat from a felled tree, struck by lightning, but until he does it at the MLB level he’s about as useful as a poopy flavored lollipop.

  8. GregD

    David – How you are comparing a “seeming lack of enthusiasm” with an actual lack of effort?

    This doesn’t have anything to do with Dunn. This is about whether a player should play through an injury or go to the DL and let it heal. It depends on the player and the injury. If the player can’t play and is hurting the team, he should go on the DL.

  9. The Mad Hatter

    Successful small market teams sell high on players such as BP. They don’t keep them around until they are making $11 mil/year. That’s a luxury that this team can’t afford and yes with all the middle infield prospects in AA/AAA room needs to be made. It’s the whole cost/benefit ratio sort of thingy.

  10. The Mad Hatter

    And maybe I would like him a little bit more if he wasn’t the self promoting, jump up and down in the window, screaming look at me, look at me type. But’s let’s not forget pitching and defense wins games unless a better defender is sitting behind Dusty’s favorites at C, SS and CF.

  11. JasonL

    I don’t have an issue with Phillips playing through the injuries. He’s had a pretty decent year all in all and there’s no one better waiting behind him. Overall, is he a hall of famer? No. But his glove is great and he provides enough offense that he’s probably one of the five or six best second basemen in the game right. I just don’t understand why you’d gripe about him right now. He’s not the problem any more than Dunn was. The problems are shortstop, the outfield, and an incompetent management team.

  12. GregD

    And I’m not saying that he is hurting the team. His numbers for August don’t look any worse than one of his normal slumps, and he was already in a slump when he got hit in the wrist. He had a good Dodger series and a good game yesterday.

    I do think Baker should have taken this opportunity to move Rolen to 4th and bat Phillips in a more appropriate spot.

  13. preach

    “You’d like him a lot more if he were a SS with power and gold glove defense.”

    Agreed. But it’s clearly not gonna happen now.

    Just curious: I know I’ve heard Brandon gush over Gonzo’s defense, has anyone heard him make any reference to Janish yet?

  14. GregD

    “I did that [go on the DL] one time and I felt like my career was over,” Phillips said. “They say I can’t hurt it no worse, so why not play? You sit down, you give another person time to shine. You never know who’s gonna take your job.”

    He thinks someone’s going to take his job?

  15. Matt WI

    Well put #11. I had a post of similar sentiment in the works. The only thing I’d add is that I don’t really understand why people gripe about BP that much at all. Fine to call him out for not running out a grounder, but all in all, he is far from the problem. He’s far from being a problem for that matter. Yes, he says mildly controversial things from time to time. Big deal.

    To the point of this particular thread, if he needs to sit, he should sit. We aren’t in any kind of race. He needs to think of next year in terms of healing, not being macho. Maybe he saw all the flak Griffey Jr. got for being hurt all the time and is trying to go the other route. We fans are fickle with what we choose to care about.

  16. The Rum Trader

    I could definetly tell that Phillips has been quite hurt since being hit. His power production has dropped and he was visibly wencing when swinging the bat. The TV crew have made note of his pain quite a bit actually.

  17. Matt WI

    #14… maybe that sentiment stems from his less than gracious introduction to the big leagues in Cleveland. He maybe thought it was all set for him, and then boom, he’s in a rental car to Cincy. It’s probably not a terrible mentality to have. Kind of goes against all the complaints of egoism about BP. Wally Pip is smiling. 😀

  18. Dan

    I applaud him for playing through injuries. I didn’t realize he was so banged up. He’s playing well too.

    He’s also one of our better players — good power, good speed, great defense. I’m glad he’s on our team, and Krivsky’s trade for him was one of his best, no doubt.

    He’d be more valuable if he could be a good shortstop, but still, at 2B, he’s good and he’s valuable.

    That said… I suspect that he is over-valued. Here are things that aren’t so good about Brandon.

    –Below average OBP — seems to be steadily about a .325 OBP guy. NL league average OBP (including pitchers!) is .331.

    –He’s a DP machine. He grounds into about 20 per full season. That effectively makes his OBP worse (even thought it doesn’t show up there.) He somehow grounds into more DP’s per game than Sean Casey did. Wow… how can that be?

    –He’s effectively signed to a 2-year, $18.75M contract now. He’s still a good value in 2009, at $4.75M, but his days as a good value are numbered. His trade value is plummeting b/c of the upcoming salaries.

    So anyway… wouldn’t mind seeing what he could bring in trade.

    Overall, good player, glad he’s a Red. Definitely one of the better 2B’s in baseball.

  19. Dan

    I should clarify Brandon’s contract status, since there’s a team option for 2012.

    If the team does not pick up the option, it’s a 2-year, $18.75M contract.

    If the team does pick it up, it’s a 3-year, $29.75M contract.

    Wow… As good as he is, I just don’t think a .270/.320/.450 guy is worth that. Even if he steals bases and plays great defense, that’s too much money.

  20. JasonL

    Fangraphs is pretty good at calculating player value…

    In 2007,his peak year, Phillips was worth $21M (holy crap).
    In 2008 he was worth $13.4M
    So far this year, he’s been worth $11M

    He is 28 now, and at his peak. A big part of his value is tied up in his glove and that’s often the first thing to go. My guess is that he might be slightly overpaid if they pick up the option for 2012 and he declines in a typical way, but it probably won’t be a disastrous contract.

  21. David

    Greg – I disagree. I think it’s one in the same. Critics each claim that BP takes plays off and Dunn was lazy. I fail to see the distinction. If you want to rip BP, then it follows Dunn would be equally ripped. However, that’s not the case. It’s certain people irrationally criticizing Brandon Phillips and irrationally defending Adam Dunn for essentially the same thing… what they assume to be a lack of effort.

    Mad – So your beef with BP is that he is into self promotion? Okay… You take Adam Rosales and I’ll take BP and we’ll see who wins more games. My guess is that if BP wasn’t on this team, people would be saying the Reds have no, what the French call, a certain… I don’t know what.

    Losing teams build for “the future.” Winners win.

  22. JasonL

    David,

    Is there anybody on this board who really thinks BP is great, but Dunn was terrible? I mostly frequent RLN because I think the people that comment here are a bit more thoughtful than that. I mean, on Fay’s blog, it might be relevant to talk about how BP gets the benefit of the doubt where Dunn didn’t, but here, I mean, what’s the point? The question really is, does Phillips help more than he hurts. Frankly, I don’t see how anyone could look at the situation objectively and claim that he is hurtful to the team overall.

    Also, Dunn’s been gone for over a year now. I think it’s time to let go and let the healing begin.

  23. Dan

    Yeah, I’m not sure why we’re comparing Phillips and Dunn, but if you want to…

    Here are their batting numbers playing for the Reds:

    Phillips: .274/.323/.452, 2409 PA, 73 DP

    Dunn: .247/.381/.518, 4562 PA, 57 DP

    I admit that Phillips dogging it every now and then, like when he’s stylin’ after he thinks he’s hit a HR but then it hits the wall, does irk me.

    But really what it comes down to for me is, with a .381 OBP and a .518 SLG, Dunn was a great offensive player for the Reds. (And, sure, a lousy fielder.)

    With a .323 OBP and a .452 SLG, Phillips is a pretty good but not great offensive player for the Reds. (And a great fielder.)

    I think Dunn got less credit than he deserved, and I think Phillips gets a little more than is deserved. (Cleanup hitter??)

    That’s all. And none of what I’m saying here is about hustle. It’s about production. .381/.518 scores a LOT of runs. .323/.452 doesn’t score nearly as many.

  24. JasonL

    Probably my last comment on the thread: When you ignore defensive contribution and focus solely on offense, you are missing a big part of the picture. Phillips is not the hitter Dunn is, but because of their defensive differences, he is probably close to Dunn in value. If you look at value on Fangraphs, Phillips actually looks a lot better

    Phillips

    Year Worth
    2007 21M
    2008 13M
    2009 11M (so far)

    Dunn

    Year Worth
    2007 11.8
    2008 5.9
    2009 8.6 (so far)

  25. Sultan of Swaff

    If you were betting right now, would you say Todd Frazier will be playing 2b or 3b in 2011?

  26. RiverCity Redleg

    I agree 100% with MatWI #15.. I don’t understand at all how anyone can bitch about what BP has done with Reds since he’s been here. And the play through pain attitude is a definite positive. It’s up to the trainers to decide if he can hurt it worse by playing and forcing him out. Unless that happens, you want the guy to want to play.

  27. chris

    Dunn was never called out by his manager, or himself, for not playing hard. Only idiots said that was the case, because he was slow and bad at defense. BP has several documented cases of dogging or hotdogging.

    That is why David’s “hypocrite” argument falls apart. That, and the fact that Adam Dunn is completely irrelevant to a discussion of Brandon Phillips.

  28. GregD

    Until this team has a Yankees-type payroll, the most expensive players are always going to be analyzed and discussed in detail. I don’t see anyone in this thread “disdaining” BP. The worst comment about him in this thread is that cost/benefit of Phillips contribution vs. his salary vs. team needs.

    Is the team better off with Phillips at his salary from 2010 with the outfield/SS/C they have or would they be better with someone like Frazier at 2B and money spent on another area?

    Same thing with the Cordero discussion from last week. No one is saying that Cordero or Phillips are bad players. But where is the team’s depth and how should they allocate their limited resources.

    As far as #20 – the distinction is that Phillips does take plays off and that Dunn seemed lazy because of his demeanor. He didn’t wear his emotions on his sleeve or destroy water coolers when he struck out. That led some to think Dunn didn’t care. In that way, I think the more similar comparison to Dunn is Encarnacion.

  29. Travis G.

    There’s something about Phillips the person that rubs me the wrong way (as if that matters), but I greatly admire him as a player.

    If he could benefit by taking some time off, then Jocketty should place him on the DL and keep him in the loop (as a courtesy) about where he fits into the team’s future plans. We’ve got Sutton and Rosales to fill in, and I don’t think either guy will take his job. Frazier, maybe, but he won’t be as good as Phillips next year.

    Phillips is a very valuable player, as JasonL illustrated above. His occasional lack of effort costs the team, but is ultimately forgivable for me. It’s a long season, and things happen. But what’s galling is that he talks himself up as a team leader and then does that stuff. He just strikes me as a big phony, but I’ve rooted for worse people than him.

  30. JasonL

    Travis G, I agree totally. I don’t really like BP, but he is good. For example, I liked Edwin much more as a person, but I’d probably rather have BP on my team. It’s an unfortunate fact that jerks are sometimes good at things (see: Bonds, Barry). And really, Phillips is the most innocuous kind of jerk.

  31. Rob

    Phillips is probably one of the most fan-friendly players in the game, sort-of on the same lines as what Jose Rijo used to be. Before every game, Phillips is signing autographs for the fans, and never hesitates to talk to them.

    Comparing BP to Barry Bonds indicates to me that someone hardly ever goes to the game.

  32. Rob

    Not to mention, telling people to play the game without excuses when the dude has a broken wrist is just stupid. I really urge anyone to go do work on a broken or fractured wrist and tell me they aren’t 100% dedicated.

    I really don’t get the BP knocking – not at all. Especially when he is only getting paid $4.75 million this year, and $6.75 million in 2010. The league average is around $3.5-4 million per season. We’re so quick to label him a “high-paid player,” but who are we comparing him to considering that Chase Utley (his closest comparison) makes over $11 million this year. Let’s get real – we’ve got a bargain for a 20homer/80rbi/20steal gold-glove 2nd baseman.

  33. David

    Chris – Chad’s comment, “We all know Phillips will do whatever it takes to sacrifice himself for the team, right?” is an unfounded criticism. Such a statement invites debate.

    Dunn is relevant if by relevant you mean having any tendency to prove or disprove a fact of consequence i.e. disproving the sarcastic reference to BP not sacrificing himself for the team.

    “Dunn was never called out [PUBLICLY] by HIS manager.” Well that’s probably true, and we all know how many managers throw one of their guys under the bus. A slim argument nonethless… Athletes are human. Their office is the ballpark. I’m sure every second of every day you give it 100%. While you’ve never probably allowed personal issues, health, intraoffice relationships interfere with your day to day tasks, I’m sure you are in the minority.

    As I recall, Adam Dunn was also ridiculed for his lack of perceived lack of effort. I consider both to be unwarranted. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if on a given play BP didn’t hustle same as Dunn.

    But you, in particular, and others give Dunn a pass because he was big, slow and laid back. When someone’s nickname is the Big Donkey, you don’t expect the guy to be Charlie Hustle. It doesn’t hurt that he was your favorite player either. Yet, the same considerations aren’t made for BP because he’s athletic.

    It is hypocritical to say what Chad said, and then in the next breath defend Dunn. The truth is both guys love their job, try to do a good job, and 95% of the time do it with max effort. The difference…. THE ONLY difference is people like you give Dunn a pass.

  34. Glenn

    I like Phillips. He’s a gamer. Dunn’s gone. He’s not coming back. I’m not sure why his name keeps coming up.

  35. Chris Garber

    I gave Dunn a pass BECAUSE THERE WAS NO REASON TO THINK OTHERWISE!!!!!! NONE. Just because some idiot on WLW says that Dunn (or Griffey, or Eric Davis) is lazy, does not mean I have to incorporate some percentage of that stupidity into my own opinion.

    In contrast, Phillips has been publicly called out by his manager numerous times for not hustling. As you said, it’s quite rare for a manger to do that, so I will continue to take his inconsistent effort into my evaluation of him as a player (frankly, it only weighs into whether I like him. His OBP, SLG, SB, and defense speak for themselves).

    I don’t necessarily agree with the remark Chad made in the original post. Phillips’ self-promotion is awful (he called HIMSELF a grinder, for goodness sake), but the guy IS on the field with injuries.

    But what I don’t understand is why all roads lead back to Adam Dunn.

  36. JasonL

    Rob,

    Sorry, I wasn’t clear enough. (Though your right, I don’t go to Reds games much as I live in Louisville.) I shouldn’t have compared him to Bonds. When I said he was the most innocuous kind of jerk I meant (and should have said) that he’s pretty cocky and arrogant and that he sometimes shoots his mouth off. If you look back, you’ll see that I’ve mostly been defending BP. I really don’t understand why people get upset about him, but he can be, um, overly vocal from time to time.

  37. Rob

    He was called out by Dusty Baker…as if that means ANYTHING. The guy doesn’t even make the team practice on Sundays, for crying out loud. Anything that comes out of Dusty Baker’s mouth is complete BS. I’d rather believe the “idiots on WLW” any day over Dusty Baker or anyone in upper management. Just like us, they are spectators of the game and perceive the game as we do. Upper management will lie straight to your face and do exactly what you asked them about the next day. And obviously over the past 10 years of losing seasons, anyone that trusts the management team within the Reds organization should be considered an “idiot.”

  38. Chris Garber

    So what’s the point, Rob? Up is down and down is up? Because Dusty Baker is an idiot, everything he says is false?

    It’s not like Baker revealed some secret about Brandon Phillips. Anyone watching the games saw when he didn’t run balls out. Baker was answering questions posed to him – “Dusty, are you ever going to discipline Phillips for screwing around?”

    I don’t understand why some people are trying to pretend that stuff never happened. I’m not saying it’s the end of the world, or that it makes him a significantly worse player. But it DID happen.

  39. Rob

    I think it’s great for BP to be vocal about things. We need guys on this team that care about winning and aren’t afraid to speak their minds about it. Regardless of his self-promotion that everyone seems to notice but me, he’s a gamer plain and simple.

  40. Rob

    “It’s not like Baker revealed some secret about Brandon Phillips. Anyone watching the games saw when he didn’t run balls out.”

    Right…just like Griffey did after every ball he hit but was NEVER sat down by Baker, Narron, Miley, or Boone? Hell, the only guy to give him crap was Jack McKeon, and they canned his ass after upper management found out that Larkin and Griffey didn’t like him because he wanted his players to hustle.

    It’s hypocritical. He’s not a kid, he’s a professional ball player. He doesn’t need to be “disciplined.” Just fine the guy and make him play. He’ll put 2-and-2 together and figure out what he did wrong. Otherwise, it hurts the team when he DOESN’T play. So with that said, who’s dumber? Dusty Baker, or Brandon Phillips?

    “I don’t understand why some people are trying to pretend that stuff never happened. I’m not saying it’s the end of the world, or that it makes him a significantly worse player. But it DID happen.”

    No one is denying it. I’m just saying it’s not that big of a deal, especially if he is the ONLY person being punished for it. I’m not sure why you seem to think Brandon Phillips is all of a sudden some kind of lackadaisical player because he’s had a few mishaps on the field. No one’s giving him excuses, but no one should be changing the image of the guy, especially with the offensive numbers and defensive games he puts up on a daily basis.

  41. David

    Rob – you just wrote what I’ve been trying to convey. Thanks and I agree.

  42. Dan

    Well, Griffey underwent an experimental procedure in which his hamstring was literally attached to his femur with screws, if I remember correctly.

    I get annoyed by lack of hustle just as much as the next guy, but I think Griffey gets a pass. I think he was under doctor’s orders not to go all out.

  43. GregD

    No one’s giving him excuses, but no one should be changing the image of the guy

    When The Onion is on Phillips, I don’t think anyone here is “changing the image of the guy”.

  44. GregD

    I know there will be a game thread up in a bit, but since lineups are out, I have to ask

    – Why is Kevin Barker hitting in front of Rolen and Gomes? They wouldn’t call him up when Votto hit the DL for a month. Votto gets a rare day off, and Barker is batting cleanup?

    Dusty logic boils my mind.

    Drew Stubbs cf
    Paul Janish ss
    Brandon Phillips 2b
    Kevin Barker 1b
    Scott Rolen 3b
    Jonny Gomes rf
    Wladimir Balentien lf
    Craig Tatum c
    Justin Lehr p

  45. RC

    Like many, I assumed that after watching Griffey hurt himself again and again while running the bases or chasing flies, he was told by the team not to run out anything “unnecessary.” This might have been a successful strategy had it not coincided with the dropoff in his offensive production – just another piece of awful timing during his star-crossed time in Cincinnati.

    As far as Phillips goes, I still like the guy. He seems to genuinely enjoy playing the game most of the time. Yes, he hot dogs it sometimes. Yes, he’s emotional, and doesn’t always handle criticism well. I can deal with those.

    My issue with him this year is the whole “I want to be a leader on this team” kick he was on before the season. It’s good that he aspired to that, but he had to know that being a leader required him to get a handle on the hotdogging and the emotionalism. Which, from where I sit, he never even tried to do.

    So if he still wants to be a Veteran Leader next year, I hope he realizes that there’s more to it than just sayin’ it.

    I’m just sayin’.

  46. preach

    Because first basemen hit 3-5. Look, this is about creating professional lineups. Only guys who played with Hank Aaron, or those who compare and contrast baseball with fly fishing (and you should thank your lucky stars our manager falls into BOTH of those categories)are qualified for this sort of work. And certainly he does not have time to explain the dynamics of those meetings with Dick Pole and Bruce Jacoby to someone who uses all those spreadsheets and statistics. Heck, you probably think an accountant could make out a lineup. You have to follow the plan.

    Stupid fans.

  47. The Mad Hatter

    So this is what it has come to in Cincinnati, this is the standard for superstar. Yes he is a plus defender at 2B and routinely steals 20 bases a year but the idea of trading BP for value at another position and bringing in someone else to put up the below numbers at 2B is improbable, Ya right.

    2008: .261 .312 .442 .754 (BA/OBP/SLG/OPS)
    2009: .268 .324 .449 .773
    2008 & 1009: .264 .318 .445 .763

    If you ask me someone does a good job of self promotion.

  48. The Mad Hatter

    BP does lead NL 2B in SB this year with 22 but he is also tied for the lead (NL 2B) with 9 CS. And just to add to his value there are only six other NL 2B with a higher OPS than BP and that number includes Craig Counsell. And this is the guy we bat 4th night in and night out. I don’t hate him and appreciate what he does for this team but he shamefully self promotes himself at every oppurtunity and IMHO is highly overvalued.

  49. David

    um…. Okay Mad.

    First off, there’s a big difference between scouting a prospect and saying he has “plus defense” and talking about a guy who has won a gold glove i.e. the best defender at his position in his league.

    Second, Frazier is at best a bat without a position. So his win value may equal Phillips’ or slightly exceed Phillips’ at Frazier’s prime, which won’t be next year.

    Third, yes you can trade away Phillips and hope that you get back something substantial in return, that may make the most business sense. But if you want to contend in 2010, 2011, or any other year, you don’t trade guys like BP for propsects. Like I said. Losers build for the future. Winners win.

    If your model is the Marlins, you should realize that the Marlins spent a heck of a lot of money to win that first world series, and THEN they dismantled.

  50. Matt WI

    #49 I don’t think too many people have said BP is untouchable for a trade… this has been more about his overall value to the team in general. People are using his stats to mitigate his mouthiness/”lazy play” that other people find annoying. If I could some up those who are espousing Phillips’ numbers it’s this: “He’s very good. Quit complaining about him.” They’re not saying “He’s too good to trade.” And most have agreed he’s good.

    The Reds ought to at least consider the value of trading darn near every individual on this roster. Shoot, everybody but Votto, Bruce, and Volquez have been nominated to “sell high” or just plain sell on this board lately.

  51. Matt WI

    David… I was thinking the same thing about the Marlins. They got to win first before they did their firesales!

  52. Steve Price

    Brandon Phillips is exactly the kind of player this team needs to trade right away.

    His contract goes up as his skills will erode.

    His contract is not too high for his current value, but will be in two years.

    The Reds won’t be contenders for at least two years (reality check)…unless they decided to really spend, and we know that’s not the case…and now we have serious questions about our pitching staff…which we thought was our strength.

    Phillips WAS my favorite player after Larkin left for the reasons mentioned, mainly becuase I like hustling ballplayers who enjoy the game, too…and I personally prefer good fielders than big hitters, no matter what I think actually helps a team win games…

    However, Phillips doesn’t give 100% all the time, and I think he announced his injury to let people know he’s hustling NOW after being busted for it. That’s rather immmature in my opinion…my 10 year old does that every day. I get rather tired of explaing in kids to not FLIP the ball to first base, to actually do proper footwork and to not put on a show at the plate when they hit a pop up…as Phillips does…

    He’s a good player…he’s not a star, but he’s a star on a bad team…kind of like Dmitri Young was with the Nationals…or Sean Casey was here…a good player, a good supporting player, but NOT the guy to build your team around.

    It’s not PHillips’s fault he’s batting fourth…earlier in the season, he may have been our best choice…but, now, any day he’s hitting ahead of Rolen, Gomes, Nix, Gomes, or Barker is due to Dusty being a “player’s manager” where he doesnt’ want to rock the boat.

    (which is why Rhodes still pitches to one hitter a game while the other guys are dying and Cordero pitches in EVERY save situation)

    Wait..against lefties, I like PHillips batting third…or second…

    As for Griffey/Larkin…folks they were TOLD not to hustle…I was trying to find the stories the other day and I found the one on Griffey online…both those guys hustled like crazy until the team told them it was more important to have them in the lineup for ticket sales.

    It’s kind of like Rose playing every day when he was over the hill going after the hit record… I don’t know that he was the best guy at the time…but, he certainly sold more tickets than Nick Esasky…and Rose had a boss, too…

  53. Drew Nelson

    Why are people afraid of Paul Janish as the regular SS next year? What ever happened to having a good defensive team?

  54. JasonL

    Okay, let me just point something out: among qualified 2B, Phillips is middle of the pack offensively (11 of 20). He is playing with a broken wrist AND finger and he is average with the bat. Also, he is a fantastic fielder. 2Bs aren’t supposed to OPS 900. Trading Phillips for an OFer is almost certainly not going to improve the team. This isn’t that hard.

  55. al

    apeaking of phillips self promotion, check out fay’s bit on him lying about his broken wrist.

  56. al

    i think the idea is to have a good team, not a good defensive team. unless we’re going to play this like football and have an offensive team and a defensive team.

    the question is if the reds can afford a ss who will probably ops less than .700, when we don’t really have much in the way of fire power. it’s fine if he’s one of the two worst hitters on the team, but if he’s supposed to really contribute, then it’s trouble and you look for someone who can play both sides of the ball.

  57. The Mad Hatter

    BP backpedaling:

    “My wrist is not broken,” he said. “So I didn’t mean to say broken. I know I didn’t say broken. I said fractured. I didn’t know fractured and broken were the same thing. My wrist it feels like it’s fractured.”

    “The last time I took an x-ray they said there is nothing broken. Broken and fractured are basically the same thing. So . . . But it feels like it’s broken. My wrist really does bother me.”

    Phillips says the only way for it to heal is rest it. “I have to sit out. That’s the only thing that can make it feel better. I’m not doing that.”

    Then rest it and stop bitching.

  58. The Mad Hatter

    And just to add to the above statements, I wonder if performance bonuses are making the difference in getting it fixed (rested) or not.

  59. Steve Price

    Here’s what I said in 54 above…to say he was being disingenuous is being kind…

    However, Phillips doesn’t give 100% all the time, and I think he announced his injury to let people know he’s hustling NOW after being busted for it. That’s rather immmature in my opinion…my 10 year old does that every day.

  60. Rob

    “BP backpedaling”

    He’s backpeddling? The guy is a baseball player, not a doctor. He said his wrist is broken…SO WHAT? There’s a fine line between being fractured and broken. I wouldn’t call saying his wrist was broken is “backpeddling.”

    “Then rest it and stop bitching.”

    Who is bitching? He said his wrist bothers him, but he’s going to continue to play through it. Just admit it…he’s a gamer and WANTS to be one. Maybe that gripes the hell out of you, but I would rather have any day over someone who stubs their toe and sits out a week – which is a majority of major league players these days. The guy is dedicated, and maybe you’re just too thick to see that. That’s you’re problem. Not BP’s.

    “And just to add to the above statements, I wonder if performance bonuses are making the difference in getting it fixed (rested) or not.”

    And what’s it matter? Wouldn’t you be working your butt off to help a team win and earn yourself some more money? How can you fault a guy for wanting to make more money than what he currently is?

  61. Rob

    “Okay, let me just point something out: among qualified 2B, Phillips is middle of the pack offensively (11 of 20).”

    He is ranked 9th in homeruns, 3rd in SB, 11th in OPS, and 3rd in RBIs for 2nd basemen in the Majors. He’s only struck out 58 times this year, which is almost a 50% decrease over the last 2 years.

    “Brandon Phillips is exactly the kind of player this team needs to trade right away.

    His contract goes up as his skills will erode.”

    Really? I would like for you to point out where his numbers are “eroding” year-over-year, and who we’d get to better cover that position and provide the offense he does.

    We’re sitting here complaining about offense in one breath, then saying we need to trade our best offensive players. It’s contradicting and doesn’t make a lick of sense. Let’s get real. For this team to have any ounce of success in the next few years, Brandon Phillips is going to need to be on this team.

  62. Steve Price

    BP is in peak years offensively. Defensive skills decline first, and batting skills will begin fading before next conract is signed. He’s not a first line star. He’s an average player entering high paying contract years on a poor team that can’t afford to carry overpaid players…he’s harder to trade after the contract reaches it’s greatest value when he’ll be valued as over paid. He’s not the kind of player that will carry a team.

    I have not or did not say he was not a quality player. The Reds have to carry true star players through their peak years; average players need to be traded before peak is over to get maximum return.

    Great example is Sean Casey…a good player, but not enough of a player to carry a team. the Reds waited too long and received nothing in return.

    I did say, and I do mean, as a player he lost my respect because he’s not the player HE says he is. I thought he enjoyed playing the game, and HE said he decided to lost the “franchise” attitude that made him persona non grata in Cleveland. I’m not convinced anymore that it’s the game, but the fame once again that’s cherished.

    And, if you read Fay’s post, he’s not backpedling on his wrist…he’s in full retreat. His wrist is sore; he said it feels like it’s fractured; x-rays were negative. It is neither fractured nor broken. He was trying to turn public opinion away from the non-hustling Brandon to the “gamer” Brandon.

    We have a guy in the minors now who will arrive just in time to replace his bat as his contract expires (or before) in Todd Frazier; I don’t think his glove will replace Phillips’s glove, but that’s not as important at 2b as it is at shortstop. Important, yes; vital, no.

    Is he a gamer? I don’t know….it sounds impressive, but Dunn played two entire years (2006-2007) on a bad knee and no one knew it until the end of the 2nd season. He played an entire year with a broken finger in 2005. Who’s more of a gamer?

    Phillips is third in RBI for second basemen because he’s batting fourth in the lineup behind Joey Votto. As mentioned, he’s 11th in OPS, which includes his home run output. He’s average…average players are replaceable.

  63. Travis G.

    We’re sitting here complaining about offense in one breath, then saying we need to trade our best offensive players.

    Phillips being one of our best offensive players is more an indictment of This Offense (Which) Stinks than it is an argument in favor of keeping him. That said, I don’t think the Reds could get enough via trade to replace what he’s worth to them. He’s a Gold Glove-caliber defensive player who can competently handle the bat, and FanGraphs analysis indicates he “earns” what he’s paid.

    I’d rather keep him next year, play Janish at short (as long as he doesn’t bat second) and use Frazier in the role Rosales has played this year. Phillips is a self-aggrandizing horse’s ass, but he’s a good player. We need more of them, not fewer.

  64. GregD

    He’s backpeddling?

    That’s what the beat writers said & how they characterized it.

  65. Rob

    “BP is in peak years offensively. Defensive skills decline first, and batting skills will begin fading before next conract is signed. He’s not a first line star. He’s an average player entering high paying contract years on a poor team that can’t afford to carry overpaid players”

    He’s 28 years old, and in technicality, a player doesn’t even start to decline until his mid-30’s. He has a lot of years left in him from a “peak” standpoint. His salary is also low compared to other second basemen in the league. Only in 2011 will he make anything equal to what Chase Utley is making over in Philadelphia at $11 million, which could be considered “overpaid.”

    He is a first line star for his position, both offensively and defensively compared to the entire Major Leagues. The statistics don’t lie about it. As I said before, WHO do you suspect we will get, as a first line star at 2nd base, for a cheaper price? How many gold glove 2nd basemen have we had in the past 30 years? I can name 3 – Joe Morgan, Brandon Phillips, Bret Boone.

    “He’s not the kind of player that will carry a team. ”

    He shouldn’t be expected to. He’s a 2nd baseman. His defensive skills keep us in ballgames, and his offensive numbers are above average for his position. He WILL be needed to propel this team into a winning nature. If you’re looking for someone to “carry the team,” we already have that in someone like Jay Bruce or Joey Votto, pending they stay healthy.

    Right now asking Brandon Phillips to bat 4th is honestly asking a bit too much. The guy belongs batting 2nd or in the 6th hole. On any good baseball team, that’s where he’d be batting.

    “And, if you read Fay’s post, he’s not backpedling on his wrist…he’s in full retreat. His wrist is sore”

    According to the broadcast last night, he’s got a fractured wrist after being corrected by his doctors. And honestly, WHO cares if his wrist is sore, broken, fractured, or frickin’ cut off as long as he is playing? Why take what someone says in an interview and make it into a soap opera? This is baseball, not The View.

    “He was trying to turn public opinion away from the non-hustling Brandon to the “gamer” Brandon.”

    Yep, his numbers indicate he’s a non-hustler because he was “disciplined” one time for not running out a fly ball? At the same time, we’re giving him grief and not Dunn or Griffey, regardless of their positions, injuries, or what they were “told” to do. It’s still contradicting. How many times have you seen someone bust their ass down the line for a fly ball besides Adam Rosales? You take Rosales or Ryan Freel and I’ll take Brandon Phillips and we’ll see who comes out the better player/winning team in the end.

    “We have a guy in the minors now who will arrive just in time to replace his bat as his contract expires (or before) in Todd Frazier; I don’t think his glove will replace Phillips’s glove, but that’s not as important at 2b as it is at shortstop. Important, yes; vital, no.”

    Until Frazier actually gets to the Majors and starts producing, we need to hold our breath on him replacing ANYONE on this roster. Saying a minor leaguer is going to replace Brandon Phillips, especially since he’s playing THE OUTFIELD in Triple-A, is moot. Need I say Brandon Larson? How many times have we seen people kill the ball in the minors, but can’t hit major league pitching? Like a person said before, saying Frazier will replace Phillips is about as credible and useful as a poopy flavored lollipop.

    Frazier isn’t projected to be an infielder anyway, from scouting reports. He’s projected to be a corner-outfielder, and how many of those do we need? Don’t be surprised if he’s traded.

    “Phillips is third in RBI for second basemen because he’s batting fourth in the lineup behind Joey Votto.”

    Brandon Phillips has been batting 4th in the lineup for 3 years – and even did so during his 30/30 campaign. Votto hasn’t been in the lineup for 3 years. Nonetheless, Brandon Phillips would still be driving in runs no matter where you put him in the lineup, in the same essence that Chase Utley drives in runs batting 2nd.

  66. Sultan of Swaff

    I think he meant broke in the same way you and I talk about lack of money—as an analogy. There. All better.

  67. Steve Price

    Peak years for hitters are 25-29, some even say it’s earlier now, 24-28; I have seen 26-30…decline starts at that time for the vast majority of players. Trades (and free agency) often happen at 30 for this reason. That’s why free agent signings aren’t usually good deals…the player is being played for past performance rather than future performance.

    Hitters like Adam Dunn peak later for they already have “old players skills” which can last later in a career.

    Speedsters peak earlier for speed leaves early.

    Defensive guys peak similarly to speedsters because the quickness goes away…which is why fielders move to easier positions as they get older.

    Hall of Famers peak in the their 30’s for they have balanced skills. Phillips lacks balance because of his low OBP.

    Guys who bat fourth should get more rbi due to line up construction…best hitters are (should) be on base because they are in front of them.

    How is he a first line star? He’s never been an all-star. He’s won one Gold Glove.

    Rob, you’re right about the salary thing…that’s why he has to be traded BEFORE his salary his too much, then he’s not tradeable. That’s why he’s a good choice to be traded now now, not later.

    About carrying the team…you’re right, he shouldn’t be carrying the team. However, any player that’s going to be making $11 million on a small market team has to be THE guy carrying the team. That’s why he has to be dealt while he has some value to another team to help us get real talent in return to build for the future…next year will not field a winning team.

    If the rationale is used to not promote a player until he hits big league pitching, how will ever hit big league pitching? Minor league equivalents for batters are extremely accurate. Not perfect, but consistent enough to use.

    Larson was always an enigma. There were questions about his conversion from the aluminum bat to the wooden bat from day one. Larson never walked in the minors and had low OBPs and struck out a lot. For him the big question was would he hit enough balls over the fence to justify a low average and low OBP…that answer was no. So, the pipeline has to be continually replenished with new talent…we’re back to the money thing and why an average second baseman can’t be paid $11 mil, and why that average 2b needs to be traded before his contract makes his value upside down like a bad loan on a house.

    I do agree that Frazier has been moved; may be a corner guy…the Reds (to their credit) are finding out if he can play 2b….

  68. christopher strand

    I don’t care what anyone says…he’s a gamer. He’s fun to watch, he’s ALWAYS entertaining, and he’s one of three major league hitters in our line up.

  69. Rob

    “Peak years for hitters are 25-29, some even say it’s earlier now, 24-28; I have seen 26-30…decline starts at that time for the vast majority of players.”

    I’ll name off some players for you that actually got better with age, and then please explain to me why they didn’t “decline” because of their “peak years.”

    Albert Pujols, Jermaine Dye, Carlos Pena, Ryan Howard, Mark Teixiera

    All of these guys are 29 or older and are putting up GREAT numbers. That’s just a small sampling size. You ideology on all of these guys, is that they should have peaked and already started to whittle down. It hasn’t happened.

    “Speedsters peak earlier for speed leaves early. ”

    What about Ricky Henderson? His speed never really “decreased” until he hit his mid-30’s. Chone Figgins? Carl Crawford? Jacoby Ellsbury? Based on your ideaology, these guys should start to fall off within the next 1-2 years because they are 27 years old or older.

    “Defensive guys peak similarly to speedsters because the quickness goes away…which is why fielders move to easier positions as they get older.”

    BP is a 2nd baseman. That’s the easiest middle-infield position you can plan. It’s even easier to play than 3rd.

    “Hall of Famers peak in the their 30’s for they have balanced skills. Phillips lacks balance because of his low OBP.”

    .330 isn’t that low of an OBP – among 2nd basemen, it’s middle of the pack. He’s cut down on his strikeouts year-over-year, which will increase his OBP indefinitely.

    “How is he a first line star? He’s never been an all-star. He’s won one Gold Glove.”

    All-Star doesn’t mean a thing. It’s a popularity contest. Josh Hamilton was on it this year, if that says anyway, and he is playing poorly this year.

    Aaron Harang led the league in strikeouts and had 16 wins two years in a row, and was second in Cy Young voting the second year. But he never made the All-Star team. Does that mean he was an average pitcher? No, it doesn’t. Right now, he’s not performing well, and hasn’t the last 2 years, but during that time he was one of the BEST in the NL and didn’t make the All-Star team.

    “That’s why he has to be dealt while he has some value to another team to help us get real talent in return to build for the future…next year will not field a winning team.”

    You’re repeating what this organization WANTS you to repeat. What is the “future?” How long is the “future?” We need to quit building for the “future,” and build towards a winning team NOW! Brandon Phillips would be helping our team win now if that is what this organization wanted to do. It’s obvious that it doesn’t and has diluted the airwaves with this crap that zombifies the brain.

    “If the rationale is used to not promote a player until he hits big league pitching, how will ever hit big league pitching? Minor league equivalents for batters are extremely accurate. Not perfect, but consistent enough to use.”

    Right, but you can’t just bring him up and replace Brandon Phillips. He needs to come up and PROVE that he is capable of doing that. Otherwise, he’s just a minor league player. Anyway you look at it, it’s going to be a very hard task to replace Brandon Phillips. So, sticking him right in there and expecting him to do it right off the bat (when he may not anyway) is guaranteeing his failure and this team’s failure.

  70. Steve Price

    Rob,

    You’re entitled to your opinion, but you’ve answered almost every one of your questions to me with your other questions and statemetns…and conveniently left out the points that you couldn’t deal with.

    Hall of Famers don’t decline that early…I mentioned that…and so did you.

    Popularity contests come with success. That’s why Phillips is not an all-star.

    Aaron Harang is an average starting pitcher and in decline.

    I am diametrically opposed to the company line. Keeping Phillips is the company line.

    .330 is not a good OBP in anyone’s league…it’s the NL average including pitchers…without pitchers it’s higher.

    And, he’s not a gamer. He’s self-promotion.

  71. Steve Price

    Oh, too…you mentioned Todd Frazier playing left field in Louisville…

    that’s not true

    He’s played 9 games at 2b, 1 in LF

  72. Steve Price

    Phillips OBP four big league seasons: .324, .331, .312, .327…it’s not going up, it’s remarkably consistent.

    As for strikeouts, he has declined this year to his credit…will it hold? He had not declined before this year…once again, remarkably consistent strike out percentage: 15.0%, 15.5%, 15.3%, 11.2%

    But, that doesn’t mean his OBP will go up; his highest OBP percentage came in the season he struck out the highest percentage of times

    His OPS+ rate is 99…which means he’s right about average (just a bit below)

    As for his fielding this season (I do take these with a grain of salt..); the stats show he’s been an average second baseman (just a bit above)

    Phillips range factor per 9 innings: 4.92
    League range factor per 9 innings: 4.90

    Phillips fielding pct: .987
    league fielding pct: .984

    2b is harder to play than 3b: defensive spectrum: SS, CF, 2b, 3b, Rf, Lf, 1b (catcher is obviously a unique talent)

    What it all says is what I’ve been saying…

    he’s an average player…which makes him a ‘star” on our team, which speaks more about the team than Phillips.

    Our team will not be a championship team next year. We don’t have enough positional player depth at this time, and the pitching has too many question marks at this time. The team’s contract status wtih Cordero, Rolen, and Arroyo (and may be Harang now) is upside down….Baker’s contract doesn’t help either nor does Taveras.

    It is correct to say the Cincinnati Reds could win next year…but, it would take a huge overhaul of players and a commitment by ownership to spend a boatload of money on overage, overpaid free agents for 1-2 years…this could be done while the youth develop, but that’s not going to happen.

    We’ve had precious few players coming through the pipleline for the past 20 years (remember the post showing current talent development from their original teams?–we had about 18 players in the majors developed in our system). That pipeline must be productive for us to win. To get their sooner we must trade players 1-2 years before their contract “explosion” year unless that guy is a stud that can carry a team, whether it’s on the mound or a positional player. An average player is not a stud.

  73. Rob

    “but you’ve answered almost every one of your questions to me with your other questions and statemetns…and conveniently left out the points that you couldn’t deal with.”

    If you’re going to make a statement like that, don’t “conveniently” leave out the questions I have answered for myself so you can “prove your point.” Pot calling the kettle black, my friend.

    “Popularity contests come with success. That’s why Phillips is not an all-star.”

    Okay, then explain why Josh Hamilton was on the All-Star team this year and has struggled. Explain the Harang incident from earlier. It’s a popularity contest. Get people to show up to games, vote their favorite players in (regardless of statistics), and they’ll be on the team. More people start showing to Reds games, more people vote for their favorite players, more Reds players get on the All-Star team. Until then, it’s going to be loaded with Yankees, Mets, Cardinals, and Red Sox players.

    “Aaron Harang is an average starting pitcher and in decline.”

    He was not at the time I mentioned above. He was a top-of-the-rotation starter for any given team during those years and wasn’t voted to the All-Star team.

    “I am diametrically opposed to the company line. Keeping Phillips is the company line.”

    It is? So if you’re opposed to it, then you’re opposed to keeping a Gold Glove 2nd baseman just because he didn’t win a popularity contest and get on an All-Star team? Wouldn’t that go along the same lines as the last 3 years of pointless decisions that have gotten us nowhere? I think it does. Keeping Brandon Phillips won’t HURT this team, but getting rid of him will from every single aspect EXCEPT budgetary concerns. Start winning, budgetary concerns won’t be an issue.

    “.330 is not a good OBP in anyone’s league…it’s the NL average including pitchers…without pitchers it’s higher.”

    For second basemen, he ranks 13th in OBP right below Freddy Sanchez and TIED WITH Ian Kinsler. If it’s league average, then it’s not BAD either. Like I said, he’s cut down on his strikeout rate, if he takes a few more walks, then the OBP will increase. If not, it gives more reason to bat him 6th in the lineup as I mentioned earlier. Quite simply, he’s not a #4 hitter and doesn’t belong any place higher than 6th unless he brings his walk rate up.

    “Oh, too…you mentioned Todd Frazier playing left field in Louisville…

    that’s not true

    He’s played 9 games at 2b, 1 in LF”

    It’s a small sample size. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt on that. But, he has played nearly 2/3 of his games this year in the Minors (AA/AAA) in LF.

  74. Steve Price

    Quoting average statistics doesn’t do anything to promote Brandon Phillips as any more than an average player who is about to become an overpaid average player as he enters his decline years.

  75. Rob

    Steve, no one is saying he is a “stud.” We’re saying he is a good player, whether “average” or not, and his production based on his pay gives that specific reasoning. Is he Chase Utley? No, he’s not. Is he equal or better than most 2nd basemen in the National League? Yes, he is –

    The only people that comes close from a production standpoint in the National League (Homeruns, RBIs) is Dan Uggla (24/70) and Chase Utley (29/84), and from a SB (22) standpoint is Luis Castillo (15). All of the players have their negatives and positives. Phillips’ positives outweigh his negatives. Based on that reasoning, it’s not worth it for this team to ship him off for little return to further damage this team offensively.

  76. Rob

    “Quoting average statistics doesn’t do anything to promote Brandon Phillips as any more than an average player who is about to become an overpaid average player as he enters his decline years.”

    Okay, you just said above that you take fielding range statistics with a grain of salt.

    “2b is harder to play than 3b: defensive spectrum: SS, CF, 2b, 3b, Rf, Lf, 1b (catcher is obviously a unique talent)”

    What is your reasoning behind that? Range? Are you also taking throwing distance and reaction time into the equation?

  77. pinson343

    I just speed-read this whole thread.
    I like (47) RC’s comments about Phillips and Griffey, I agree with all of them.

  78. Steve Price

    The defensive spectrum is accepted throughout baseball analysis in difficulty…think about how players move to new positions as they grow older…outfielders may try a move to 3b…very few go to 2b.

    As for a trade, I think you’ve hit on what I do not mean in any way…the trade “for little in return” is exactly the opposite of what I mean. If he’s traded when his contract is high, we would get little in return. He’s worth more or, at least equal, to his value right now…there’s absolutely no question about that.

    At this point, we can get quality young players for him…and, that’s what this team…multiple good young players, not bodies. We get bodies when we trade players at the top end of their salary scale.

    If we had a “real” chance of winning next year, I wouldn’t be making my suggestion. we’re at least two years away with our current talent level. By that time Phillips contract is a burden because bigger money will kick in for the young players we now have that will need more money for contract extensions and arbitration.

    I’m not suggesting a salary dump…I’m suggesting managing the salaries.

  79. Kenny

    Hint: you can’t argue with people who claim RBI as a relevant statistic for comparing baseball players.

  80. Rob

    No, you’re right Kenny – runs batted in are pointless. They should do away with measuring that statistics since it doesn’t matter if runs are scored or not, or if you have a guy in the lineup that can knock those runs in.

    /sarcasm

    Get real.

  81. Dan

    RBI’s aren’t the best if you’re trying to evaluate an INDIVIDUAL player, b/c it has so much to do with whether or not the guys in front of you are getting on base. I think that’s the point.

    Of course, at a TEAM level, you want as many runs and RBI’s as you can get.

    It’s using as a way to rate an individual that can get sketchy.

  82. pinson343

    RBIs, like BA, are not meaningless. They are one indicator among many others. Getting in a runner from 3rd with a sac fly or a ground ball does not register with OPS.
    I’m not a big believer in BA with RISP but hits with runners in scoring position are good and they too are registered in RBIs. HRs of course register RBIs so it’s a muddled statistic but an indicator nonetheless.

    BP’s RBIs have helped our offense score runs.

  83. Rob

    Dan, I agree with you to an extent. But, you have to have people BEHIND those people to drive them in. That is why RBI is NOT a useless or meaningless statistic.

    Not every player can do that, obviously. I think BA w/RISP has a lot to do with RBIs, and thus why RBI is measurable and meaningful. As pinson said, a sac fly or ground-out doesn’t register with BA w/RISP or OPS, and runs score frequently of those. RBI, says that no matter the situation, the specific player is driving in runs.

  84. GregD

    36 of the Reds 536 runs have scored on a sac fly this year.
    “frequently”?

    Phillips leads the team with 8 sac flies. Because he is a good sac flier? Or because he leads the team in runner on 3rd and less than 2 out opportunities?

    #1 Phillips has 41 PA w/ runner on 3rd less than 2 out
    #2 Votto w/22
    #3 Bruce w/20

    Votto has no sac flies and Bruce has 1.
    Is there some meaningful conclusion from these numbers about whether Votto (65 total RBI) or Phillips (84 total RBI) is the better RBI guy?

  85. earl

    Brandon Phillips’ quiet strolls watching his deep flies like he is hitting a five wood is the only thing that really makes me crazy. The guy plays and has actually cut down on his K’s a bit, although I don’t think he has been as patient in the second half of the season. That play when he got hurt in Milwaukee looked really painful.

    Phillips best defensive year was two years ago. That catch and throw to end that game in Pittsburgh near the end of the year is one of the greatest baseball plays I have ever seen. He’s still pretty good, but that year he was getting everything.