Time for a recap of tonight’s titanic struggle….

FINAL
Cincinnati 2
Pittsburgh 5
WP: Morton (3-6)
LP: Owings (6-12)
S: Capps (23)
BOX SCORE

POSITIVES
–You tell me: is there anything positive about the Reds embarrassing themselves against the Pirates and dropping to within a half-game of last place? Anything?

NEGATIVES
–TOS*

–Terrible outing by Micah Owings in his return to the mound. Five earned runs in five innings. He’s still chronically unable to throw strikes.

ETC.
–Ryan Hanigan — a rookie — was the oldest player in either starting lineup tonight. Not one of those players were alive in 1979, when the teams wore the uniforms they were “throwbacking” tonight.

–Wow, are these two pathetic organizations or what? A good case can be made that the Reds and Pirates have been the worst organizations in MLB over the last decade.

–That’s 70 losses for the Redlegs; 19 games under .500. Can it get worse? Will it?

*This Offense Stinks.

25 Responses

  1. Matt B.

    Getting closer and closer to that #1 pick.

  2. mike

    maybe if we’re lucky the Reds will get the #1 pick and take a high school catcher

  3. David Kaiser

    this is the reason the reds should not trade harang or arroyo.they may not win thier starts but at least they keep the reds in most games.if they got rid of them that would leave it to the young guys and they might not win another game the rest of the year. can we finaly admit bailey is not the only young guy on the staff who sucks?still amazing he is the only one ever sent down after his bad outings while queto and the rest just keep going out and pitch just as bad and excuses are made.the best thing you can say about owings is he would make a nice leftfielder.even when he is not hurt he is awful.they are the worst team in baseball right now with no hope in sight.

  4. mike

    worst over the last decade or in this decade? 🙂

    I like looking at these sorts of things so lets look at the worst franchises in the last 10 years

    First 13 teams have below a .500 record in the last 10 years. I’m going to eliminate the 3 teams close to .500. The Cubs, Marlins and Rangers

    That leaves us with a nice even 10 worst teams in the last 10 years
    Royals, Rays, Pirates, Orioles, Nationals, Tigers, Brewers, Rockies, Padres and REDS

    I think it’s clear you have to eliminate any team who’s made it to the playoffs, even just once in the last 10 years. 10 years is a long time and if you are good enough to make the playoffs it’s hard to consider you for worst franchise.

    that eliminates the Rays, Tigers, Brewers, Rockies and Padres
    note that 4 of the 5 of those teams are somewhat in the playoff race this season

    that leaves the Royals, Pirates, Orioles, Nationals and REDS

    I think you could have guessed most of these bad franchises
    How many .500 seasons have these 5 teams had in the last 10 years?

    3 Nationals
    2 Reds
    1 Royals
    0 Pirates and Orioles

    I think that eliminates the Nationals

    The Reds, Royals, Pirates and Orioles are for sure the 4 worst franchises in the last 10 years.

    not counting the last couple games the teams wpct during that time

    wpct
    .413 Royals
    .429 Pirates
    .438 Orioles
    .471 Reds

    how many 5th or 6th place finishes?
    8 Pirates
    6 Reds and Royals
    2 Orioles

    take your choice these 4 franchises have been horrible in the last 10 years. The Reds probably aren’t the worst almost 100% because of the 1999 season.

    Personally I think the Pirates and KC are the worst franchises in recent history
    Sure, sure, the Reds are very close and among the worst but I think the Pirates and KC set the standard

  5. mike

    Arroyo does NOT keep the Reds in most starts of his

    In the last 2 years (2008-09) Arroyo has had 24 horrible starts, 7 of which he didn’t even make it to the 5th inning. The Reds are 3-21 in those starts.

    Cueto for example has 21 equally bad starts, 6 of which he didn’t make it to the 5th inning. The Reds are 3-18 in those starts. The point being Cueto is young and only is only in his 2nd season.

    I’d deal Arroyo in a heartbeat. $9.5 million this year and $11 million next year for that?

  6. mike

    lets look at this a Arroyo keeping us in games in a more positive way

    in the last 2 years here are the pitchers who have kept us in the most games, which I defined as starting and have a game score greater than 50 while pitching at least 5 innings

    Volquez has done that 31 of 41 games

    Harang has done that in 30 of 55 games
    Cueto has done that in 30 of 55 games

    Arroyo has done that in 30 of 58 games

    Owings has done that in 7 of 18 games
    Bailey has done that in 4 of 19 games
    Maloney has done that in 1 of 3 games

    in the last 2 years Cueto has kept this team in as many games as Harang and a higher % of games started than Arroyo. The thing to think about there is the money. Cueto is essentially free.

  7. mike

    I think tonight’s positive(s) is that the defense played very well. Janish, Stubbs and Nix all made very good plays and I don’t think I even watched half the game

  8. Rob

    I didn’t watch any of the game. I don’t have the will to watch a team competing for last place in the NL Central. When you keep losing, and losing to THE PITTSBURGH PIRATES of all teams, you’re competing for last place.

    Good job Jocketty, good job Castellini, and good job Dusty Baker. You’re all equally awful and have ran this franchise into the ground. Welcome to the laughing stock of baseball folks! Gotta love your Cincinnati River Bats!

  9. GRF

    Poitive 3 scoreless innings by the bullpen? Yes it is the Pirates, but even with the subtractions the pen has continued to pitch well.

  10. Eddie

    Let’s be honest, how many games are you expecting to win with that lineup? There’s only 3 major league hitters (Dickerson, Hanigan & Votto) in that lineup.
    And two of those guys are slumping…in August Hanigan is batting .140 with a .218 OBP and Votto is batting .199 with a .291 OBP.

    Micah Owings…I really have no idea how this guy only has a 5.52 era, 11 of his 20 starts he has walked at least 3 guys per game. If he ever figures out how to control his pitches he might actually be a great pitcher.
    As far as watching I am still doing it to see my boy Chris Dickerson and to see what Stubbs can do.

  11. WORLD

    Reference #11, I wouldn’t consider Hanigan or Dickerson as wielding major league sticks at this point of their respective careers. Hanigan, for example, has no power at all which would be OK if the rest of the lineup had enough. And……he will be back of the bench when Hernandez comes back.

    The Reds stink on ice right now. And the future doesn’t look too bright.

  12. Michael

    The problem with Owings is he is way to low pitching angle. He needs to get that arm up to 3/4’s and not that near side arm crap. He NEEDS a pitching coach, but I am no fan of Dick Pole or any coach the Reds have ran out. Gullet seemed okay considering he would make a good pitcher out of crap just about every year. Of course they would still have four crappy pitchers around them and that pitcher would fade to crap the next year.

    Can we get a real, knowledgable pitching coach? I would take a flier on a complete unknown if needs be, like a Soto or Rijo or Browning (would love to see pitchers get the ball and work quickly like Browning did). Someone other than the tired old retreads like Dick “Never produced a quality pitcher” Pole. Geez. I know, I know, Bakers buddy, but come on, geez.

    I would rather have a nerd with glasses that never pitched and give the little genius a shot (hopefully a physics guru that could computer our staff to stardom with angles and leverage and efficiencies with custom designed training for each).

    Oh, as for the original question. I root AGAINST my Reds every day now. I want that top pick next year and a chance at the best hitter or pitcher in the U.S. Screw fifth place, what is that, who will remember or care more than one second after the season is over that we didn’t finish last. Stupid. We need a giant shot in the arm and I would happily pay a prospect 10 or 15 million over several years as they would instantly have more potential than a Harang or Arroyo, who make that kind of dough in ONE friggin season throwing gopher balls.

    Jocketty, alert, I will throw gopher balls for the league minimum and you can run me out every other day. I will get you 300 innings, though I can’t promise an ERA better than 5.00 (hitting enough balls at somebody for outs) and my fastball will no longer top 75 mph even after extensive workouts. It worked a few years for Denny Neagle, so maybe. Hey, Phil Niekro’s fastball barely topped 80 on good days. I can do it and save you 10 + million too!

    Call me.

  13. hammer1

    I really wish the Reds would hire Rick Peterson. I know he’s got a little bit of a mad scientist in him and that turns off some people, but there is no doubt the guy knows what he’s doing. Also he would push to put together an overall pitching plan for the entire organization down to low A Ball.

    He’s out there looking for a job, and probably wouldn’t be cost prohibitive. The problem is he uses “computers” and “data”, and talks about bio mechanics and all these other fancy terms. That probably wouldn’t fly here. 🙁

  14. brublejr

    Well, we can all forget BP moving to short (as long as Dusty is still here):

    per McCoy:

    About Phillips, Baker said, “Not that he is the calibre of Joe Morgan, but why move an All-Star second baseman to shortstop? So you try to develop a shortstop and leave that strong position (second base) alone. That shortstop is a lot of work. You probably work as hard at shortstop as, well, probably only the catcher is involved in more plays.

    “That’s why I admire offensive shortstops like Cal Ripken Jr., Alex Rodriguez, when he played short, and Derek Jeter. That’s double duty, man. That’s like Willie Mays playing center field and batting third. You are carrying most of the offensive weight and most of the defensive weight, too. If Phillips played short, how much would that affect his offense?”

    There really isn’t a viable option that I can see, so I guess Dusty rather take a black hole in the lineup than risk moving BP to short.

  15. GRF

    I did not see last nights game, know nothing about pitching mechanics and did not even stay at a Holiday Inn last night, but I have had the misfortunne to see Owings pitch in person twice and following up on Michael’s point I really wish Owings would get the arm up and work faster. It has to be hard to stay in rhythm and throw strikes when you are taing that much time between pitches.

    Also, I really wonder where the reds are in terms of using statistical analysis, biomechanics and other “cutting edge” analysis compared to other teams. The Nationals specifically cited that is a criteris in hiring their new GM and while I think all that stuff can be overrated, I sure hope there is someone in the front office at least providing that perspective.

  16. Michael

    GRF, you are right, most of that fancy stuff is overrated. Even the great Beane with Moneyball hasn’t fielded a decent team in a decade…and he is celebrated GM for crying out loud.

    I want a pitching coach and and team that will push SPs, not pamper them. I agree with Nolan Ryan, a quality start six inning performance today would have been a joke 30 years ago. The injuries continue to pile up as pitch count limits continue to go lower and lower. ENOUGH. Lets get them back up to 130-150 pitches a game (provided they are pitching well). I want a PC that will demand a struggling pitcher view old video with him when the pitcher was pitching well and detect the differences. Its not rocket science in that regard. Now turning crappy pitchers into stars might take some serious work, but for the most part, you only need to slightly reposition most pitchers with any talent at all to get the best out of them.

  17. Chris

    How, Michael, I disagree with every single thing you’re saying on this thread. Even the word “is.” 🙂

    Micah Owings is not going to restructure his entire pitching motion at this point. Not going to happen. Chris Welsh discussed this at length last night.

    The injuries continue to pile up as pitch count limits continue to go lower and lower. ENOUGH. Lets get them back up to 130-150 pitches a game (provided they are pitching well).

    This one’s just false. Nolan Ryan thinks everyone from his era was Nolan Ryan, and forgets Gary Nolan, Don Gullet, or the 100 other promising young pitchers who were ridden like rented mules back then (And while we’re at it – Nolan Ryan himself didn’t throw > 150 IP until he was 25 years old).

    Even the great Beane with Moneyball hasn’t fielded a decent team in a decade…and he is celebrated GM for crying out loud.

    This one is totally true, unless you consider 93-69 to be a “decent team,” or if 2006 occurred in the last decade.

  18. KY Chip

    Everyone wishing for the #1 pick should also remember — it’s not enough to draft him, you gotta sign him, too.

    And are we sure the front office of this organization can: a) identify a future MLB star; and b) find the money to get his name on the dotted line?

  19. Plowboy

    Actually, I WOULD be VERY interested in watching this team in September IF we got to see a lineup something like this all month:

    Stubbs
    Hanigan
    Votto
    Rolen
    Balentien (give him a shot to see what he can/can’t do)
    Phillips (at SS)
    Bruce (will he return?)
    Frazier (at 2B)

  20. REDS1

    I say we give Michael his shot.

    Do it for the average Joes everywhere. Besides what do we have to lose.

    I am sure the ownership will like it because it saves money.

  21. John

    I’m never going to pop off and say the Reds should hire a bunch of out-of-shape bloggers to run their team, but after a bunch of out-of-shape bloggers spend two years using actual, real statistical analysis to make a FORMER MANAGER OF THE YEAR look like the freakin’ idiot he is, isn’t it time to fire the idiot manager? It’s an embarrassment that making Baker look so stupid is so easy. He brings it on himself.

  22. Kyle

    #16: I would be shocked if the Reds were not near the bottom as far as using statistical analysis. Jockettey was essentially pushed out in St. Louis because he didn’t get along with their now-GM (who was big on stats). And I’m not doubting that Dusty Baker has heard of the internet, but he may have difficulty finding it if you sat him in front of a computer.

  23. mike

    bloggers are all out of shape? and managers are in shape?

  24. Rob

    Dusty Baker looks like Humpty Dumpty – An egg with chicken legs.