Let’s use this thread to discuss any rumors that are going around as we approach the deadline. I don’t know if the Reds are going to be able to swing anything, but I can think of one player that I hope to see traded.

The editors will update this thread with any stories that come across the wire relating to the Reds.

Discuss tonight’s game here, as well. Let’s cheer on Justin Lehr as he makes his long-delayed major league debut.

UPDATE: Can anyone come up with a good reason why the Reds shouldn’t just clean house right now?

UPDATE 2: Heh:

My source tells me the Reds are still trying to make a big play for Hanley Ramirez, but the new word is that the Reds are hestitant to take on his salary with no clear position to play him. Alex Gonzalez is deeply entrenched at short, you know.

UPDATE 3: Jerry Hairston, Jr. has been traded to the Yankees. Details still sketchy.

UPDATE 4: Fox Sports is reporting that Scott Rolen has been traded from Toronto to Cincinnati for Edwin Encarnacion and …. wait for it … Yonder Alonso. If this is true, Walt Jocketty should be terminated immediately.

UPDATE 5: It appears that Scott Rolen was obtained for Encarnacion, Josh Roenicke, and Zach Stewart. The Yanks sent us a crappy minor league catcher, Chase Weems, for Hairston.

This isn’t much better than trading Alonso, in my opinion. Stewart is a STUD.


473 Responses

  1. Matt Steele

    earlier there was a Hardy for Harang rumor but I haven’t heard that on any site except for Milwaukee’s so I’m not sure if that was true or not.

    It’s been pretty quiet on the Red’s front today which I think is the wrong way to go. Let’s trade the huge contracts we have while we still can and get some financial freedom and some young guys back. Then perhaps we can be a player in the free agent market or offseason trades

  2. Chad Dotson

    It’s really quiet on the trade front right now. What’s Walt Jocketty waiting for?

  3. per14

    Um…what is this about a Hanley Ramirez rumor? Is that just pure bunk? I saw it on Reds Reporter and heard about it on WLW.

  4. per14

    Hmmm. Just reading the words “Hanley Ramirez rumor” right now after I posted that makes me realize how absurd that is.

  5. Brian

    That would not make sense because the marlins were going after Heath Bell and Nick Johnson to try and compete this year so they aren’t trading there best player.

  6. Chad Dotson

    Tomorrow night in Cleveland, it’s Victor Martinez bobblehead night. And it looks like he has just been traded to Boston. Hilarious.

    I’d love to have Martinez.

  7. David

    Do you know the haul it would take to add Hanley Ramirez? You would have to part with five of your top prospects. Bailey, Francisco, Alonso, Heisey, and Dorn wouldn’t even get it done. I’d love to have HanRam as his contract is certainly doable 2010: $7 million, 2011: $11 million, 2012: $15 million, 2013: $15.5 million, 2014: $16 million, 2015: Free Agent, but there is NO WAY that rumor has any teeth.

  8. David

    Also, the Marlins are only three games out of the wild card. Why would they make that move now?

  9. Brian

    doubt the Reds do anything, mainly because all the players will be able to pass through waivers so they can wait or wait till the offseason. I want Harang and Arroyo gone though.

  10. Travis G.

    Our big contracts aren’t being paid to players who will put a contender over the hump. Harang, possibly, for a team that needs to upgrade the middle of their rotation (like the Phillies did last year with Blanton). I happen to believe Harang’s performance would improve with a change of scenery, but no one’s going to pay extra for that. He’s an overpaid third starter. But Arroyo’s more of an offseason deal, if at all.

    You gotta think Weathers, Rhodes, Masset or Cordero would be attractive to someone. I hear Colorado’s looking for a lefty in the pen and a left-handed hitting OF for the bench. Would Rhodes and Nix work?

    (BTW, no f’ing way on Han-Ram. Srsly. Not even the BoSox or the Rays could pull that off with their farm systems.)

  11. Brian

    No way the Reds move Massett because if anything they try and move Weathers and have Massett take his spot in the bullpen.

    I even have a hard time believing the Reds would consider Rhodes because he isn’t really expensive at $2M for next year.

  12. Bill Lack

    Even if you believe Massett’s having a career year (thus selling high), he isn’t going to bring much…he’s be more of a “part of a package” guy.

  13. Bill Lack

    Thanks for the update Brian…but seems like a “nothing deal” to me…I mean what are you going to get for Jerry Hairston?

  14. Brian

    I agree the Reds won’t get much but its something that happened haha.

  15. David

    Why in the world would the Reds move Hairston, Jr.? He wasn’t a SS, but he was a nice utility guy that can also play the OF. He wasn’t used correctly but was a good guy to have. No details on who the Reds got in return. PTBNL?

  16. Brian

    My guess is the Yanks only did it because their CF broke his hand or wrist or something. It doesn’t say what the Reds will get.

  17. Travis G.

    It only took two minutes, but someone already misses Cherry.

    He wasn’t an especially good player, but he’s a very useful one. Too bad he had to be quite so useful for the Reds.

  18. Brian

    To bad they wouldn’t take Arroyo or Harang

  19. John

    Hairston makes $2m a year. Might’ve been a factor. Minor cost cutting?

  20. Brian

    Who is the backup CF? Stubbs going to get the call?

  21. John

    If Walt got a minor leaguer then there’s a 25-man spot to fill…

    And if he puts someone on the 60-day that frees up a 40-man spot for…

    Darnell McDonald?

    If only!


    Hairston to Yankees, wonder if his agent Casey Close, once of Columbus, Ohio, pushed his other client, Derk Jeter, for the trade?

  23. Jose

    no news on what we got in return
    maybe if we’re lucky they might give us a couple hot dogs and a soda, and some bleach seat tickets to a yankees game for Bob and Walt, that way they can watch a real team play

  24. MLH

    Surely, if the Reds get anything less than A-Rod in return, Dusty Baker will resign in protest.

  25. Nathan

    Yeah – I’m seeing that about Rolen too. Oh my.

  26. Kyle

    MLB network just said Rolen coming to Cincy. If its for Alonso, I’m going to lose my mind.

  27. Brian

    I am unsure, it depends who the Reds gave up.

  28. Eddie

    C’mon Rolen, deny that trade

  29. Matt Steele

    it better not be for Alonso

    I’m hoping EE and Willy T lol

  30. Matt Steele

    yeah I’m hoping Rolen says no lol

  31. Travis G.

    Oh no. The Rolen deal is done, according to MLB Network.

    Gulp. I’m sceered.

  32. ian

    If the Rolen thing is true, we have unquestionably the absolute worst front office in the history of baseball

  33. ian

    apparently it didn’t take my hyperbole html tag

  34. doug

    I am glad to have Rolen on my team. I am very scared at what was given up.

  35. ian

    evidently rolen has to approve the deal. please god let him deny.

  36. per14

    Why TF would Rolen NOT deny the trade?

  37. per14

    Well, scratch that. He is from Jasper, IN.

  38. Dan

    Well, it depends hugely (obviously) who we gave up, and how much we’re paying.

    It’s not AUTOMATICALLY terrible.

    This will be telling, though, whether Bob C is willing to take on most of the $$$ to be able to give a lesser prospect, or if he’ll go cheaper and give up a better player. (I’m afraid I know the answer already but I’ll give him a chance…)

  39. Matt Steele

    Rolen is from Indiana and looking at the Reds he probably sees that he has a better chance at competing here than on Toronto in the AL East… I bet he approves it

  40. doug

    I think we should wait to see the return before we freak out about this guys. Scott Rolen is MUCH better than Edwin Encarnacion is. Money is a big upgrade as well, but Rolen makes the Reds in 2010 a better team than Edwin Encarnacion does if he can play 120 games.

  41. Bill Lack

    Sorry, i think it’s terrible if even we gave up Taveras…it’s not that big an improvement over what we have, he’s older, more expensive, and can’t stay healthy.

  42. Chad Dotson

    Yeah, it depends on who we gave up. Waiting for the other shoe to drop on that one is scaring me to death. I don’t trust Walt.

    Also, it depends on who is going to play 3B the other 60 games of the year while Rolen is injured. It would’ve been Hairston, but…..

  43. Andy

    Jonathan Mayo is hearing we got Austin Jackson from Yanks for JHJ.

  44. Chad Dotson

    Let’s not forget that Edwin is my favorite Red, which will mean my favorite Red has been traded two straight years.

    My new favorite Red is going to be Willy Taveras or Dusty Baker.

  45. Matt Steele

    how is Scott Rolen much better than EE? It’s definitely not true offensively as they’re about equal the past few years.

    Defensively sure, but Rolen is also 34 and is only going downhill from here

    Salary wise, if the deal isn’t a wash financially then this makes no sense

    Hopefully Arroyo is traded for Rolen

  46. dave

    Plus, I’m hoping Scotty will have a mad on for the Cards and mash them every time we meet up!!!

  47. David

    There is NO way in HELL Cashman would be dumb enough to give up Jackson for Hairston. Rolen deal would look nice so long as I don’t see PTBNL anywhere in the report, as that would mean it was Alonso.

  48. per14

    Yeah, Rolen is certainly NOT much better than EdE, esp. when salary is factored in.

  49. Brad

    It doesn’t matter if we gave up exactly no one or less than no one (i.e. Taverasty) and the Jays are eating his entire contract. There’s no reason for this trade at all. The maximum 2 wins Rolen gives us over EE (ALL on defense) will not put us into the playoffs next year. It’s a waste. EE is still an about average 3B who we have under control for more years at a lower price. That is valuable in itself, and especially if prospects don’t develop.

  50. Bill Lack

    Mark Sheldon just posted: Volquez stopped his sim game well short of expected 80 pitches. He went back into the clubhouse.

  51. GRF

    Chad you are tempting fate with things like that shutdown comment. Please do not tempt the baseball gods.

    Rolen makes no sense for this team. None. I am just hoping there is nothing more than EE in here.

  52. doug

    Bill, Scott Rolen is worth about 3 wins over Edwin Encarnacion. Thats worth 12-15 million on the open market. The guy has trouble staying healthy, but if he can play 120 games, he is a lot better for the Reds, even at more money, than Edwin Encarnacion is. I like me some Edwin, but he is what he is.

  53. David Lowenthal

    If the Reds get Jackson for a joke like Hairston, that would be an unbelievable
    move. There is just no way.

  54. doug

    Edwin Encarnacion is not an average 3B. He is average to slightly above average at the plate, but he is the worst defensive guy in baseball. Add that together and its not close to being an average 3B.

  55. Chad Dotson

    Over the next three years, I’d say EE will be better than Rolen offensively.

    Depends on how much you value defense, and how much Rolen can stay on the field.

  56. David

    Chad there are going to be about 90 minutes of news after the deadline on deals that got through which weren’t known.

  57. Chad Dotson

    True, David. But once that deadline passes, we might start getting some hard information. That’s what I’m waiting for.

  58. Charlie

    How big of an upgrade or downgrade would Rolen be over Encarnacion in the clubhouse/as a teammate? And what is the value on that?

  59. GregD

    Bill – John Fay is reporting the same thing on Volquez:

    Edinson Volquez just stopped in the middle of his simulated game. Trainer Mark Mann looked at his elbow and they headed in.

    Can’t be good. Don’t know how many pitches he threw.

  60. AB

    2:56pm: FOX Sports says the Blue Jays will get Edwin Encarnacion and a minor leaguer. Rolen is expected to approve the deal.

  61. Matt Steele

    EE and a minor leaguer…. better not be Alonso lol or anyone good

  62. Chad Dotson

    Doug, I don’t necessarily disagree with anything you say, but you have to take into account that Rolen is old. He isn’t getting any better, and he could drop off substantially at any time.

    We can argue all day about whether EE is going to improve at all but the fact is that he is four months older than Votto. There’s a chance he will be substantially better than Rolen on offense.

  63. GregD

    Who plays in the OF tonight if Taveras’ wrist still hurts, Hairston was traded, and Balentien “isn’t ready”? Or is he forced into action for a game?


  64. Matt Steele

    Charlie at #77

    Those intangibles aren’t able to be measured very well, but I doubt any clubhouse influence can really impact a team that much. If it’s only EE and a fringe minor leaguer (ie none of our top 15 guys) then I’m fine with this trade but it better not be Alonso or anyone good

  65. GRF

    Doug, those three wins do us no good this year and do you trust him to stay healthy and hit at this level, at his age next year? I am asking that seriously, this year looks like the aberation to me, but I am willing to be convinced otherwise.

  66. David Lowenthal

    Walt Jocketty is a absolute, complete, pure, idiot.

    Alonso gone. Why even bother with the draft?

  67. dave

    I don’t understand you guys… In the last 3 seasons (including ’09), EE has played in exaclty 13 more ballgames than Rolen. …and that’s while Rolen has battled back from that shoulder. I think we’re seeing a re-habbed Rolen and that player is significantly better than EE all the way around. …and I’m an EE fan.

  68. dan

    I may quit being a reds fan today if it’s EE and Alonso. That would be the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever seen. It could be over…I think maybe I’ll go for umm the Marlins perhaps? I like the way the manage a team.

  69. Sultan of Swaff

    Austin Jackson’s #s are decent at AAA for a 22 year old, but the Ks are still high. Looks like Stubbs too me, in which case it’s a fair trade for a legit ML utility guy like Hairston.

  70. Brad

    Even if Rolen is 3 wins better, it’s still not worth 12-15 million to the Reds. The marginal wins he could provide are still not putting us anywhere near the playoffs next year. It’s just wasting money.

  71. Eddie

    If Alonso is involved…redleg nation will have one less reader.

  72. GRF

    How much of a signing bonus did we pay Alonso? Because you better include that in the cost of this trade.

    Complete, absolute and utter disgrace.

  73. dave

    Oh…I don’t know…Stubbs, Frazier, Heisey, Lotzkar, Henry…

  74. Matt Steele

    If it was Alonso… Cincinnati is one of the worst run franchises in baseball since 2000

  75. Matt B.

    Word is it’s Alonso and EE for Rolen. 😐

  76. doug

    I hate the Reds if this is true. I wouldn’t have traded Alonso straight up for Rolen.

  77. Chad Dotson

    If it’s Alonso, get ready for a Reds fan meltdown unlike anything we’ve ever seen.

  78. Andy

    I hope Fox is wrong about Alonso, because tonight went from a sober Friday night to a black-out Friday night…

  79. Sultan of Swaff

    To give up Alonso, they should’ve eaten A LOT of Rolen’s salary. Walt’s an idiot, and a desperate on at that.

  80. David

    Well Chad – it’s been a good run… Hope this post goes through. When’s the site getting shut down 🙂

  81. Sultan of Swaff

    Good point, you gotta factor in Alonso’s signing bonus. We got HOSED!!

  82. Travis G.

    I felt literally nauseated when I read that Fox Sports report, but I might actually barf if it’s confirmed. (*If* it’s confirmed.)

    Ed Price, FanHouse.com: “#Reds source says reports of Encarnacion plus Alonso for Rolen are not accurate. We’ll see…”

  83. doug

    Heck, if this is the route we are going why not toss in Stubbs, Heisey, Frazier and Stewart and get Halladay too and just go for it in 2010? Otherwise, I am going to put a knife into my brain tonight sometime.

  84. Matt Steele

    I can’t believe we mortgaged our future for a 34 year old 3rd baseman who will probably have the same offensive output as EE next year and maybe help us win 2 or 3 more games in the field.

    Congratulations Cincinnati, you have no idea how to run a baseball team

  85. Steve Price

    The Reds trading for Scott Rolen is another slap in a knowledgeable fan’s face.

    It’s a move to say, hey, we did something, but he got hurt and it didn’t work out…

    what’s more, the next line is invariably, we can’t afford to get anybody else or keep our young talent.

    It’s crazy, frankly, outrageously poor management by men who have more money to burn than we dream about.

    It’s not that Encarnacion is great, he’s not, but Rolen’s 34, injury prone, attitude prone, with a huge salary.

    Teams are built with youth….read the Bob Howsam trade things (exception Seaver, who’s a Hall of Famer), and you’ll find he built with youth. If you were 28 years old, you were on the trade block.

    Shortstops must be young; defense declines as players get older.

    Our team can’t “afford” players because ownership is too busy making “public” statements by trading for overpaid, useless closers, signing old middle relievers because they can’t scout for younger ones, and extending contracts to people like Harang and Arroyo on their first good season.

    We should be outraged; I am outraged and insulted, if this trade is true.

    Look, at Reds’ histories…we have many Hall of Famers that played for us at the end of their careers (Harry Heilman, Curt Simmons, Chick Hafey, Jim Bottomley…there’s more); these players are acquired to sell tickets while not really investing in the team.

    If the Reds want to win, they must invest in the best scouts and player management people they can find…not, signing old, over paid players then whine when they can’t afford to keep young players who can really play…

    Color me “red” with frustration.

  86. AB

    I’ve decided to make no judgements until we actually know what the deal is…

  87. Chad Dotson

    C’mon, AB…that’s no fun! Jump to conclusions and fly off the handle like the rest of us!

  88. Chad Dotson

    It’s clear that Walt Jocketty thinks the Reds were really a GOOD team this year, but lost only because of injuries. In other words, he’s clueless.

  89. Sultan of Swaff

    Who’d we get for Hairston?

  90. AB

    Can’t do it man…too many emotions at once…did we get Austin Jackson? Sweet! Did we deal Alsono? No Way!

  91. Chad Dotson

    Looks like it really was Austin Jackson for JHJ, which is a pretty good deal for us.

    Possibly completely nullified by other idiocy, however.

  92. dan

    I’m reading across the internets that looks like Halladay may have been sent to LAA, so perhaps there is a 3 way trade going on here? Angels definitely have some people I would be OK having on our team if we have to ship off Alonso.

  93. Andy

    If we got Jackson that is GREAT, but you are right Chad. If we gave up Alonso and EE for Rolen…..wow.

  94. Eddie

    en Davidoff of Newsday (via Twitter) says the Reds will receive minor league catcher Chase Weems.

  95. Travis G.

    Jeff Blair of Canada’s General Newspaper (WTF?) tweets: “ESPN says Halladay to Angels.”

  96. GRF

    Austin Jackson for JHJ would be a great move, and the exact type of thing we should be doing.

    It would almost make me believe the Alonso thing cannot be true.

  97. ian

    we got a class A <a href =”http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/W/Richard-Weems.shtml”catcher with a 662 ops in 255 minor league at bats for Hairston! Coup!

  98. BigRedMike

    UPDATE, 4:08 p.m.: They sent Low A ball catcher Chase Weems to the Reds. That appears to be the only deal made by the Yankees.

    Per a Yankee blog.

  99. David Lowenthal

    Doug, I disagree with your line of thinking. I haven’t run the numbers,
    but let’s assume the 3 wins. I think you are cherry picking the year
    (2009) instead of using Rolen’s expected 2010 stats, whatever they are
    (but probably worse), plus comparing to Encarnacion in 2009. I mean, Rolen’s
    worth 40 more wins than, say, me, this year. I doubt he’s worth more
    wins by more than 1 or so next year.

  100. Brian

    well whoever it was rolen approved it

  101. Brian

    ESPN says Yonder Alonso is not involved

  102. GRF

    That is a more realistic, but pathetic, return for JHJ.

    Just a salary dump, but I can live with it because it opens ABs for Janish and other younger guys hopefully.

  103. james

    Keith Law says Yonder is not included in the deal.

  104. doug

    Zach Stewart to Toronto. He will win a Cy Young for them. Bank on it.

  105. David Lowenthal

    So much for reporting; Keith Law says no Alonso.

    Well, someone is wrong, my logic says.

  106. Chad Dotson

    John Fay reports via twitter:

    johnfayman #Reds sending Encarnacion, Roenicke, ZStewart to Toronto. Got C Chase Weems for Hairston.

  107. Dan

    According to John Fay

    The Reds are sending Edwin Encarnacion, Josh Roenicke and Zach Stewart to Toronto for Scott Rolen.

    That’s a high price to pay.

    In exchange for Jerry Hairston Jr., the Reds are getting catcher Chase Weems. He was drafted in the sixth round in 2007.

  108. BigRedMike

    No Alonso to the Blue Jays

    EE, Roenicke, and Zach Stewart. Pretty high price, but, Jocketty really wanted Rolen.

  109. Travis G.

    RT @johnfayman #Reds sending Encarnacion, Roenicke, ZStewart to Toronto. Got C Chase Weems for Hairston.

    Roenicke, too? Srsly?

  110. David

    3:14pm: Rolen approved the deal, according to Joel Sherman of the New York Post (on Twitter). ESPN’s Keith Law says Yonder Alonso is not in the deal. Instead, it’ll be Encarnacion, Josh Roenicke, and Zach Stewart heading to Toronto according to John Fay of the Cincinnati Enquirer.

  111. Andy

    Zach Stewart included in the deal doesn’t make me any happier.

  112. GRF

    How sad is it that we are waiting here in terror to find out how bad this really is, as opposed to being excited about a good move?

  113. Eddie

    That’s barely a step down from Alonso

  114. james

    I think getting Rolen allows another year for guys like Frazier to get more seasoning. Rolen is an upgrade on def and a more consistent hitter than EE. EE is not the future 3rd baseman for the Reds.

  115. John

    Josh Roenicke? WTF? I thought they were high on that guy and not just….high.

  116. Dan

    I wouldnt have traded those 3 for Rolen 5 years ago

  117. Andy

    Jocketty got fleeced BIG TIME on that deal. Roenicke and Stewart and EE? You got to be f****** kidding me?!?!?

  118. Matt Steele

    Roenicke and Stewart…. I’m ok with that

  119. Sultan of Swaff

    This has to be part of some 3 way deal if Halladay is going to LAA, at least I hope so. It just doesn’t make sense otherwise.

  120. Travis G.

    Of course, we don’t know how much cash is coming back, but this doesn’t look good from where I sit. I really like Roenicke’s potential.

  121. dan

    I’m hoping these are just more rumors floating around, as this makes me almost as mad as the Alonso rumor. This just seems like way too much to give up for Rolen, so I’m hoping that the truth will be much more reasonable. Although who I am kidding, this is the Reds we’re talking about.

  122. Matt Steele

    I don’t think Roenicke or Stewart are going to do that much at a major league level… I agree that the Blue Jays “won” this trade but perhaps its the excitement that it’s not Alonso that has me feeling somewhat ok about this.

    i don’t like this deal but it could have been much worse

  123. GRF

    Roenicke and Stewart? Absolutely utterly pathetic. I might have been happier with Alonso.

    I am so disgusted, I just do not know what to say. Ruins the rest of the season for me.

  124. Chad Dotson

    I’m not okay with trading Stewart for a part we don’t need.

    If it were for a top shortstop or something, maybe.

  125. AB

    If all of this is correct, it means we ADDED payroll for THIS year. That doesn’t make sense to me.

  126. Sultan of Swaff

    It makes about as much sense as Jake Peavy getting traded to the ChiSox AGAIN.

  127. Brad

    James #145, EE does the exact same thing for less money. Rolen is not the future 3B for this team either and however much better he may be than EE, he’s still not getting us into the playoffs next year. That would be the only reason to add salary and it’s not there.

  128. BigRedMike

    You would think that the Blue Jays would need to pay some of the salary for Rolen if it is a 3 for 1 deal.

    Probably not a good trade for the Reds, but, it likely will not matter anyway. No movement of Arroyo, Harang, and Cordero, the big contracts.

  129. GRF

    Anyone notice how this is the exact opposite of virtually everything else that went down this week? Everyone treating prospects like they were gold, refusing to give up top guys in their systems even for All-Star level players.

    We gave up two good prospects for a 35 year old 3B with health issue having an abnormally good year compared to his recent history.

    Either we are smarter than everyone else in the room, or we are complete morons. I know which I am picking.

  130. james

    Is walt going to try and sign Mark Mcgwire now?

  131. RiverRat

    Rolen and Jocketty together again. Correct my dates, but didn’t Jocketty sign Rolen in St. Louis, and then when Jocketty left, they got rid of him?

  132. Chad Dotson

    And of course the Reds fail to trade D**** W******* for the third straight year, or whatever. Sheesh.

  133. Dan

    At least I will get to watch Stewart pitch here in Vegas soon

  134. Matt Steele

    yeah I don’t understand why we added payroll… the Front Office must really think that we can compete hard next season

  135. Sultan of Swaff

    Well, that was the last exciting to happen this season. Time to get on with the business of playing out the string…………again. *sigh*

  136. Beroader

    Saw this on cincinnatireds.com:

    Toronto would reportedly get third baseman Edwin Encarnacion and a Minor Leaguer in return, according to FoxSports.com.

    Note it says “A Minor Leaguer”. Hopefully, that means, at least, no Roenicke, though it could mean Stewart. Take it with a grain of salt, though.

  137. Andy

    I am hoping for Vina and Edmonds! Move BP over to SS and let Vina play 2B.

  138. Dan

    Vince Coleman looked good in the Celeb Softball game, we should sign him

  139. Dan

    What on earth could the rationale be? Seriously – that we want to hang onto a tiny shred of hope this year?

  140. Mark the Red

    oh god, this really is worse than being the Pirates.

    At least they can try to go young, have something of a plan.

    We get another few years of horrible decisions from mgmt and crappy product on the field….

  141. GRF

    Everyone is reporting it is Stewart and Roenicke at this point.

    At this point, I officially vote no confidence in the present regime.

  142. al

    this seems like a classic jocketty move though, right? i may not be remembering perfectly, but i feel like when he was with st lou he had a rep for trading prospects for impact major leaguers.

    imho the reds are the type of team that needs a really deep farm system, and both the prospects we gave up didn’t seem too far from the majors. that said, i don’t think either of them are going to be stars.

    it just seems like more quantity than we needed to give up (depending on the money). but jocketty doesn’t really care about quantity i don’t think. if he’d given up alonso that would have been a different story.

  143. Dan

    I bet they say “he plays the game the right way” in the press conference. You watch.

    My lord… just awful… I think I’m a combination of sad and pissed.

  144. AB

    From Sheldon: RHP Josh Roenicke just told he’s going to Blue jays in Rolen deal

  145. Dan

    But the Cardinals were usually GOOD! The Reds are currently BAD! You do different things with a BAD team than you do with a GOOD team! At least you’re supposed to!!!

  146. Chad Dotson

    Alright, I’m going outside to play with the kids. I’m going to try to forget about the Reds for a while.

    The more things change, the more they stay the same.

  147. ty

    lets just remember that ee is the worst defensive player in the major leagues. he’s streaky ( at best ) at the plate, and he hasn’t really improved any over the past 3 years. at least now we’ve got rolen penciled in for the start of next year, with frazier waiting in the wings when the inevitable injury strikes. at least we didn’
    t trade alonso, and hopefully this hand injury won’t zap his power, like it’s been known to do. the only real negative from today is that arroyo and harang are both still reds. oh yeah, and the whole volquez situation. i guess that’s another career dusty can notch on his bed post.

  148. Kurt Frost

    How do you play the game the right way? Is Rolen the new cleanup hitter? Does he have to chill and marinate and sit a few days so Dusty can watch him and figure out what he is?

  149. james

    Next year everyone is going to have bounce back years and stay healthy. Rolen is always healthy. :p

    Just pathetic. Might as well say Nationals, Pirates, and Reds. The Reds aren’t any better than those teams.

  150. AnnapolisRed

    This really reminds me of the Austin Kearns trade when everyone went crazy about how bad it will be losing Kearns with EE playing the role of Kearns. My prediction is it will be the same outcome, nothing for nothing (which is not good, don’t get me wrong, but I don’t think it is the end of the world either).

    As far as Weathers, Arroyo and Harang–Guess what, NOBODY WANTED THEM. They aren’t very good and make way too much money.

    I would say we didn’t get any better or any worse today (don’t get me wrong, that isn’t a good thing when you are already terrible)

  151. Matt Steele

    Here’s a fun game…. try to name one city with more than one major sport team where all of their teams are run worse than in Cincinnati.

    With the Bengals and the Reds we get no relief in any sports season….

  152. The Godfather

    I was glad to see Hairston go…one less guy for Dusty to play favorites with. IF, the Rolen deal includes Roenicke AND Stewart it doesn’t make much sense. I understand getting a guy like Rolen for one reason, clubhouse leadership. This team desperately lacks any type of leadership in the locker room from its manager on down. Other than the leadership Castellini is smoking something because this team isn’t going to win this year and won’t win next year or any time in the future by giving up prospects.

  153. al


  154. GRF

    I am not sick over EE, still would not have done the deal staight up for him and Rolen, but I see the point.

    Tossing in two Roenicke and Stewart, even if they just turn out to be replacement level relief pitchers (and I will go on record predicting both end up better than that) is just a joke.

    Going to go watch a single A game with the kids tonight. Try and remember why I like this game.

  155. REDS1

    Like most of you. I don’t like these moves. How much difference is Rolen going to make?

    But he will be more expensive than EE.

    Did we get any money in these deals.

    It sounds like we just gave Hairston away.

  156. Nathan

    I think I’m with you AnnapolisRed (#191). It feels like we overpaid now – but I think it will end up a wash in the end – or close to it.

  157. Eddie

    How do you trade 2 major league players and a guy in AAA with a 1.67 era through 23 games this year (1.09 era through 24 games last year) for Rolen?

  158. Steve

    I’m going to dissent from the consensus of opinion that opposes this trade. I think that people like us who pay very close attention to our teams tend to over-value minor league prospects. We frequently talk about “well this is our 3B of the future, this is our 1B of the future, this person will be playing SS” etc.

    It just rarely turns out that way, at least for teams that win championships. Yes, occasionally an organization may produce a couple of players that are good major league players over a course of a couple of years. The Reds have done that with Votto, Bruce, Votto and Bailey.

    But another part of winning is having proven players on the team. Scott Rolen can be a solid, experienced, player at 3B for this year and next, at a minimum. He compliments the rest of our team, which right now is extremely young.

    Defense is really important. You only need to look at EE’s inability to turn a routine DP yesterday – leading to 4 runs – as proof of that.

    I don’t regret giving up EE. He’s been injury prone for such a young player, his defense is among the worst in the league, and his bat is increasingly questionable – streaky at best.

    I like Roenicke and Stewart, but if the Reds are going to contend in 2010 they need to start adding pieces that are above average, and proven in the major leagues.

    Sometimes we treat these prospects as though they have the same value as someone who is currently a proven major league player. The vast majority of them do not turn out that way, let alone injuries getting in their way of development.

    So I’m sanguine about this trade. I’m so sick of seeing EE failing to improve, and aching for good, established baseball players, that I’m glad this happened.

    If I never have to see EE drop his elbow before he throws to home, first or second, it won’t be a minute too soon.

  159. Matt Steele

    I agree with a lot of what Steve said… I’m actually ok with this trade. If it was Alonso I would feel differently but that’s mostly because we could have gotten more for him.

    I think EE will stay an average 3b and I think Stewart is the only one who could come back and haunt us

  160. TylerS

    Keep in mind the organization’s track record for developing young pitching. Chris Gruler, Ryan Wagner, Ty Howington, etc. A player blossoming like Homer is more of the exception than the rule. Roenicke and Stewart may have ended up to be complete duds had they stayed. IF pitching is healthy next year (LARGE if, I’m aware) this team, may be one big move at SS or CF away from being completely solid.

    It seems to me that such a deal may be in the mix if Walt is willing to trade a future closer and keep an established one with only 1 contract year remaining. We’ll have to wait and see. I’m keeping my tin-foil hat in the closet for the time being.

  161. GregD

    This really reminds me of the Austin Kearns trade when everyone went crazy about how bad it will be losing Kearns with EE playing the role of Kearns. My prediction is it will be the same outcome, nothing for nothing

    Except Kearns still produced for his first season and a half with the Nats, didn’t he? Lopez has been good since leaving Washington. And the Reds got nothing in return.

    Right, Kearns wasn’t the star many here thought he would become, but the Reds still got the very short end of that stick.

  162. Drew nelson

    Who is Zach Stewart and what makes him so special?

  163. GregD

    Plus, the Reds just needed some bullpen help. Instead of moving role players or minor leaguers for bullpen help, like other teams at that deadline did, the Reds moved 2 of their starting 8. If they get bullpen help without sacrificing their offense, that season could have turned out very differently.

  164. Eddie

    Steve I agree about Edwin but Zachary Stewart involved in this deal is a huge mistake. Ever since he got drafted in the 3rd round of 08 he has dominated at every level, as both a starter and relief pitcher. If he isn’t on the Blue Jays starting roster next year I will be surprised.
    EE & a minor leaguer for Rolen I like. EE & Roenicke for Rolen, I don’t mind.

  165. Eddie

    The trade is official — Scott Rolen and cash going from Toronto to the Reds in exchange for 3B Edwin Encarnacion, RHP Josh Roenicke and minor lg RHP Zach Stewart.

    Encarnacion was pretty upset when he was told.


  166. Beroader

    Any hope Scott Rolen will nix the trade? It’s happened before.

  167. jason1972

    Edwin and Rolen seems like a wash. It was pretty apparent that Easy Eddie was not going to be the future at 3b. So maybe Rolen holds it down competently through 2010 while the Reds see if Frazier, Soto, or Francisco proves themselves.

    Roenicke AND Stewart in addition seems like a steep price to me, but neither were seen as sure fire major leaguers yet were they?

    JHJ seems like a throw away for salary. I don’t think his loss has much impact on the Reds now or in the future.

  168. TylerS

    Reds stats at 3B this season: .213/.303/.331
    Scott Rolen (Career) .284/.370/.500
    Scott Rolen (Season) .320/.370/.476

  169. Steve Price

    I hate to say this, but I’ve been surprised that Jocketty hasn’t gotten more of his past players back. Many chided Jim Bowden while with the Nationals on being the Reds East…most people do and deal with what they’re comfortable with, and, when it comes to talent, you have your own scouting reports…do you trust yo has ur’s or someone else’s?

    Bob Howsam raided the Cardinals in the late 60’s, from whence he came. But the Cardinals were loaded; I’m surprised Jocketty has raided their lower minors, too, since he came from there.

    However, the more I think about this, I almost feel like it’s an ownership move as much as a GM move. Rolen is a big name, and Castellini (also with some St. Louis Cardinal roots) wants to do thinks in a big way. I can envision the conversation (this never happened, did it?)

    Castellini: Walter, what’s happening on the trade front?

    Jocketty: Boss, our guys aren’t in demand. Krivsky’s contracts are killing us. Our guys are untradeable, and what’s worth, Dusty refuses to play anybody new. He’s got this thing for speedy centerfielders and Hairston. Heck, he wouldn’t even play Hairston in Chicago when they were there together. It’s hard making deals with out talent.

    Castellini: Well, what about this ‘farm system” that Krivsky was supposed to be good at developing? Anybody there?

    Jocketty: We’ve got a bunch of guys that can’t play third base, some speedy outfielders, and lots of relievers. I’m real proud of how Alonso is progressing, though.

    Casetellini: Third base? Encarnacion makes me crazy; he’s so inconsistent it reminds me of the produce market and the price of bananas. Hey, rumor is Rolen is available and he plays third base. What would it take to get him?

    Jocketty: He’s got that no-trade contract…

    Castellini: So, buy him out; everyone has his price, and he’s coming home for goodness sakes. He almost came here once. Hey, it was you that signed him in St. Louis. Give him a call.

    Jocketty: Can’t do that, boss, it’s called tampering.

    Castellini: Tampering…Walt, there’s always a way. Bowden was accused of tampering in the Griffey deal, and it just cost us Antonio Perez…and it turned out he was almost 50 instead of 21…find someone to get word to Rolen, for feelers.

    Jocketty: It will cost us…

    Castellini: We’ve got to get this deal done. The Big Red Machine didn’t wait on deals, they made them. Howsam made deals all the time; reworked the whole team in two years….haven’t you read Redleg Nation lately?

    Jocketty: It was a different time then; contracts weren’t difficult

    Castellini: Don’t care…get it done; public relations is trashed right now; we’re losing and even the Pirates are dealing. Make the deal.

    Jocketty: What if they want Yonder?

    Castellini: Yonder? Oh, you mean, Homer…do the deal, Dusty doesn’t like him anyway.

    Jocketty: Not Bailey, Yonder Alonso, stuck behind Votto….

    Castellini: Oh, Yonder…Homer…seems similar; since David Bailey is Homer but is a pitcher, may be we shoudl rename Yonder, something like K-Man, for strikeouts, since he plays 1B?

    Jocketty: Boss, the trade…

    Castellini: Right, right; no Yonder, I like that name. Trade anybody with talent that no one knows about yet; we need a good public relations hit…hey, we have pitchers…Howsam used to trade pitchers like they grow on trees; and don’t keep Encarnacion, he has to be included….

    this was entirely fictional and dreamed up along a beach in South Carolina…

  170. Steve

    Wonder if we’ll ever know how much cash we received. Glad to hear it’s some.

    @Eddie (#204): You may be right about Stewart and if he does make it quickly and successfully to the majors as a starter, then the trade will look worse for the Reds. And I liked Roenicke, too – he’s been great this year.

    On the other hand, this move means the Reds are serious about competing in 2010, which is good news. We aren’t behaving like the Pirates, always trading good players for younger, cheaper players. We’re doing the opposite.

    Before we accept as conventional wisdom that there was something wrong with the way Jockety worked in St. Louis (“there he goes again”), keep in mind how much he won there over the past decade compared to the Reds.

    I think we’re going to have to wait and see how this turns out.

  171. WanderingBear

    I’m almost angrier about Stewart being included in this deal than I would have been if it was Alonso. Stewart has proven himself at a higher level than Alonso, and he’s a pitcher. Not saying we won’t work it out, but Alonso is a 1B. We already have Joey Votto. Pitching wins championships. Zach Stewart was a high K, high groundball pitcher, perfect for GABP. And we gave him up for a 34-year old 3B. I don’t know how anyone can be “ok” with this deal. Do you honestly believe just getting Rolen will make us contenders next year, even if he’s healthy?

  172. Matt WI

    This leaves more questions than answers. With EE gone, and JHJ gone, who plays third when Rolen gets hurt? Rosales? Sheesh. And with Roenicke gone, does that mean we are keeping CoCo and his ridiculous salary for another year?

  173. WanderingBear

    Who are we calling up to replace Hairston?

  174. Travis G.

    Here’s the sound of additional shoes dropping, per Rob Butcher:

    Acquired from the Blue Jays 3B Scott Rolen and cash in exchange for 3B Edwin Encarnacion, RHP Josh Roenicke and minor league RHP Zach Stewart. Rolen is expected to join the club tomorrow.

    Acquired from the Yankees minor league C Chase Weems in exchange for IF/OF Jerry Hairston Jr.. Weems will be assigned to Class A Dayton.

    Selected from Louisville the contracts of RHP Justin Lehr and RHP Kip Wells.

  175. Steve Price

    There’s no way to compare Cincinnati to St. Louis. Both are Mid-continent teams, but the Cardinals function like a large market team due to the support of their fan base…which came as a result of management/ownership providing quality teams to follow.

    The Cardinals salary budet is 50% to 100% larger than the Reds. Jocketty cannot operate with the same mindset….and this trade was the same mindset.

  176. al

    the cash could make this seem a lot more reasonable, but i feel like if it’s more than 1 mil it has to go through the comish right? so it may not be much. if we got rolen for what we would have paid ede, then the prospects seem reasonable.

    i want to know who’s taking hairston’s spot? why no position player call up, didn’t we just deal two of our infielders?

  177. MLH

    MLB traderumors says Jays will pay some of the remaining 4 mil coming to Rolen and that Rolen asked to be traded for “personal reasons.”

  178. Mike

    Its funny how everyone loves all the minor league players until they get to the majors (Wagner, Gruler, Howington, Espinoza – All Reds first round picks, all busts). Its like backup quarterback is always more popular than the starter, until you realize why they are the backups.

    Reality: we did not just trade two hall of famers. In fact, a many players have good games in the minor leagues and turn out to be just average pitchers. Many even have great years in the majors and turn out to only be so-so in the long run.

    The question of “Who will be our 7th pitcher in the bullpen?” seems silly if you are solidifying one of your top 4 players in the batting order that will play everyday.

    I’m tired of rooting for talent and want to start rooting for wins. Veteran presence, great defense, no more E5E5, and a good bat from the right side. Do I wish we could have gotten him for less? Of course. Is it better to have a solid offensive player with great defense? Definitely.

  179. MLH

    Seems like if Rolen wanted out that the Reds could have made a better deal of it. Of course Walt probably didn’t know that.

  180. GregD

    Who said Kip Wells was just minor league roster filler?

  181. Glenn

    I’m ok with these two trades. EE was on my last nerve. If Alonzo had been included, I’d have been furious. I think the worst this is going to be is a “So What” type trade. Who knows though, Rolen might have a couple of good years left in him. I doubt that EE does. I wish WJ could have used DW or Rhoades to get some prospects though.

  182. al

    weirdly enough, kip wells has been dominating at louisville. who knew?

  183. Eddie

    Yeah, Ricciardi isn’t going to let that bit of information get out before he trades him.
    Okay I am hoping neither pitcher becomes top tier and maybe Rolen will be a veteran guy to teach Frazier/Soto/Francisco to play 3rd.

  184. Steve Price

    The worst comes when the Reds say they can’t afford to get real players because their money is tied up in contracts for Harang, Arroyo, Rolen, and Cordero.

    Whatever cash we receive this year will be forgotten in adding up future contract totals.

    Ken Griffey, Jr., may still be our highest paid player and he’s no longer on the team?

  185. Eddie

    Glenn #217, both of those could pass through waivers so don’t be surprised if they get traded later in the season.

  186. Steve Price

    how will Rolen teach those guys to play 3b unless he goes to AA to teach them?

    Is he going to tell Francisco to quit eating?

    Anyway, additional money spent on Rolen’s contract, could have been better spent helping other teams buy out our over paid players contracts, and, frankly, just starting over.

  187. al

    from fay:

    Drew Sutton lf
    Adam Rosales 3b
    Joey Votto 1b
    Brandon Phillips 2b
    Jonny Gomes rf
    Laynce Nix cf
    Alex Gonzalez ss
    Ryan Hanigan c
    Justin Lehr p

    Wow. I couldn’t have imagined that one being run out.

    Dusty Baker said Scott Rolen will hit fifth. He’s expected to get here tomorrow. Toronto is in Oakland today.

  188. Fisch

    What is the word on Chase Weems? Looking at his stats, he is not setting the world on fire at single A. Anyone know anything about him?

  189. Steve

    Drew Sutton lf
    Adam Rosales 3b
    Joey Votto 1b
    Brandon Phillips 2b
    Jonny Gomes rf
    Laynce Nix cf
    Alex Gonzalez ss
    Ryan Hanigan c
    Justin Lehr p

    That’s tonight’s lineup. Can someone explain Hanigan batting 8th, behind Gonzalez?

  190. al

    it is truely unbelievable that with an open roster spot we are starting drew sutton in left field. you’re telling me there isn’t one outfielder we could call up who deserves to be in left field more than drew sutton?


  191. Travis G.

    Who said Kip Wells was just minor league roster filler?

    Haha, I thought the same thing as soon as I read the release. Corky Miller’s next, y’all!

    I still expect to see one or more of the veteran pitchers to be traded in August. They’ll all clear waivers, I bet.

  192. Josh

    Steve, he’s a catcher. When Dusty played with Hank that’s where the C always hit. Its just baseball sense.

  193. Eddie

    Steve Price…in spring training, Rolen can work with them in spring training.
    and I just kinda added francisco on last, not a fan of him at all

  194. MLH

    Wouldn’t mind Balentien getting a look.

  195. Eddie

    4:50pm: Richard Griffin of the Toronto Star reports that the Jays will pay all of Rolen’s 2009 salary, nearly $4MM.

  196. Steve Price

    Well, Frazier is already in LF.

    Soto is still a project and I’d be surprised if he’s in the big league camp.

    Rolen will be in the trainer’s room most of the time, would be my guess.

    this is just a really, really stupid deal…from what I’m reading, those sick of Encarnacion seem okay or happy about it.

    I’m not an Encarnacion fan at all…I think he’s less than average.

    I think trading for Rolen is the move of a losing franchise…and history repeatedly tells that story.

  197. Glenn

    Good point Eddie. There’s always hope.

  198. Steve Price

    I’m not certain what Rolen’s making this year, but in 2008 he made over $11 million. He’s made 11-12 million each of the last four years

  199. per14

    Dusty says Rolen will bat fifth. Hmm. Yeah, that makes sense.

    This could actually be an okay lineup:


    Chances of that happening? .00001 percent.

    Not sure why I’m even caring at this point.

  200. MLH

    Balentien’s not done marinating yet.
    Fire up the grill, Dusty!

  201. ty

    for what it’s worth, i think sutton’s just starting tonight because he’s a warm body already in town. i expect Balentien to start tomorrow.

  202. Josh

    This is off topic and I know that the BoSox have a good farm system, but do teams think its a “privelage” to trade with the BoSox? The Braves trading Kotchman to them for LaRoche? WTF? VMart for relief pitcher prospects? I don’t know if people trip over themselves to deal with Theo or RedSox Nation is so good at overhyping their players.

  203. Glenn

    This team has AAA talent and little more.

  204. Steve Price

    Just found it…$11,625,000….for the last 3/8 of the year, I guess that would be about $4.4 million.

    He’s scheduled to make $11 million again in 2010.

    That means over $45 million is tied up in cordero, Harang, Arroyo, and Rolen

    Who says we can’t afford to pay players? We pay top dollar for mediocrity.

  205. David

    The sky is falling!!! The sky is falling!! The sky is falling!

    I really like the Rolen deal. I don’t know why everyone is so high on Encarnacion. I think the guy is awful. He has more 20+ error seasons than 20+ HR seasons for crying out loud. He’s never put it together. He hasn’t improved on defense, and for those guys who are stats guys rather than tools guys, you should not be in love with E5.

    For 2009 and 2010, Rolen is an upgrade. By 2011, one of Frazier or Francisco are ready.

    The Reds made themselves better this year and next. After that, who knows?

    The Reds will likely get Arroyo, Harang, Cordero, Phillips, Weathers, and Rhodes through waivers. You have to keep in mind that in this economy teams aren’t likely to add payroll so lower contract players will pass through waivers. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Angels, Yankees, Rangers, or Brewers added a guy like Harang or Weathers.

  206. ty

    didn’t votto play left field when he first came up? what are the chances of moving him there this winter, and try to fast track alonso?

  207. David

    Per @ 242 – that isn’t a bad lineup and your right. It won’t happen.

  208. Kenny

    Wells and Lehr brought up, EE and Roenicke gone? Taveras unavailable.

    What, do we have 8 hitters available tonight?

  209. Matt Steele

    This year is done, we’re not going to compete barring some sort of miracle

    Next year though, I think we could have a competitive team even with just the roster we have now

    CF – Stubbs
    C- Hanigan
    1b – Votto
    RF – Bruce
    3b – Rolen
    2b – Phillips
    LF – Gomes/Nix/Free agent
    SS – Janish

    With a pitching rotation like

    with Wood and Maloney in triple aaa ready to step up if needed and we’ll have Owings in the bullpen.

    I feel like that can be competitive. It would be even more competitive if Alonso has a great spring training, makes the team and Votto goes to LF (though still batting 3rd)

    I just feel like there is no chance of this happening, at least not while Dusty is in charge. Maybe we’ll suck so bad the rest of the year that we’ll fire him and hire a good manager (Bobby V will be available)

  210. ian

    Walt Jocketty says Rolen is a good rbi guy. He also admitted to caving in to the Jay’s demands. Folks, our GM is a yeloow-bellied retard.

  211. Jose

    Walt Jockety said that Rolen requested to be traded here, he wasn’t happy when the trade talks ended

  212. Travis G.

    I wouldn’t count on Volquez next year, Matt. Sounds like he’s going to need Tommy John surgery.

    Also, I’m buying a powder-blue Albert Pujols jersey if we open the ’10 season with a Nix/Gomes platoon in LF.

  213. Ace

    Just think. This time next year the Reds will be trying to unload Rolen’s salary to a contender.

    I don’t like this trade one bit, and Jockety won’t find a trading partner as gullable as himself to trade with to get that good of a return. Next year Walt will trade Rolen for another undersized catcher.

  214. Eddie

    This is what I think:
    Best trade Reds ever made: Trading away Edwin Encarnacion
    Worst trade Reds ever made: Trading away Zach Stewart

  215. Y-City Jim

    Dusty was really choked up at seeing Roenicke go. So much so that when he said how he hated to lose him during the press conference he mispronounced his name.

    Jocketty and Baker were determined to have Rolen. They are convinced that he is going to come in and start punching guys in the face when they don’t play hard. I guess Phillips and Taveras should get ready to have their faces punched.

  216. Y-City Jim

    I wondered if they simply got Rolen so they could find out how Arroyo has been tipping his pitches when the Reds play Toronto?

    Speaking of Arroyo, what’s with the big performance enhancing drug confession? Was there a point in his career that his performance ever suggested he might be? Of course, it was when he played with Boston. I beginning to think performance enhancers must have been part of the meal plan there.

  217. Y-City Jim

    Are we sure that Taveras didn’t get traded? He isn’t in the line-up, which BTW is the most god awful line-up ever know to mankind.

  218. Chad Dotson

    I know most of you will disagree with this, but in two years we’ll wish we still had Edwin Encarnacion.

  219. Chad Dotson

    Two new polls in the left sidebar above.

    I’ll have a new one about the trade deadline deals soon.

  220. Travis G.

    They are convinced that he is going to come in and start punching guys in the face when they don’t play hard.

    Let’s assume he’s that type of guy (no idea whether he actually is). I just don’t see how a guy, even of Rolen’s considerable reputation, can walk into the clubhouse two-thirds of the way through the season and suddenly start screaming at guys when they screw up.

    I don’t pretend to have been in a big-league clubhouse before, but that’s the sort of thing you kind of have to work up to from spring training, isn’t it? I mean, unless you’re kind of a dick?

  221. brublejr

    Just checking in…I HATE the trade…not as much as EE getting trading but giving up Stewart was stupid. I don’t care for Walt at ALL. He made stupid trades with the Cards (trading away Haren, etc…) this one is just as bad. If it was EE and Roenicke for Rolen, I could handle it, but giving up Stewart for a has been is just plain dumb! This club will not succeed in the near future. We are officially in the same club as the Pirates and Royals…Here’s to you Walt, my wife thanks you because I won’t spend as much time watching your club.

  222. al

    gotta love teams build around pitching and defense. 31 yr old rookies and huge oafs in center field that is.

  223. al

    lehr having a little trouble putting guys away in the early going. 16 pitches to two batters.

  224. BigRedMike

    Lehr does not appear to be fooling anyone early on. Great play by Nix in CF, Welsh is pointing out the obvious at how this Reds team is not fundamentaly sound.

  225. al

    welcome to the big leagues grandpa. you’ll fit right in with the rest of the reds starters, this inning could be ugly.

  226. Eddie

    No Taveras and Gonzo at the bottom…that’s a win in my mind as far as lineups go.

  227. Jessica

    My guess for tonights game 🙁 23-1. Anyone else???

  228. Nathan

    Wait wait wait….I just realized something. Why isn’t Nix leading off???? Isn’t he the center fielder tonight? I’m so confused.

  229. al

    not bad. in fact, far better than most reds starters have done lately.

  230. Eddie

    Too bad Votto is entrenched at first cause Kevin Barker is tearing it up, .400 average with 5 homers over the last 28 days. Stubbs is also hitting better, both 1 for 1 tonight.

  231. jello

    Sutton with .091 avg
    Rosales with a .205 avg

    First two hitters are actually worst than usual

  232. brublejr

    How come the Sox and Phils can rip off the Tribe, while we have to sit here and look at the Rolen trade :poke:

  233. David

    God, I hate how much everyone moans about every single deal. Half of the guys complaining have never seen Stewart throw a single pitch, but are going overboard. Because of the Rolen deal the Reds are a better team in 2009 and 2010. Frankly, by 2011, Roenicke and Stewart will be replaced by new prospects.

  234. shane

    I never saw Stewart but I wasn’t all that impressed with Roenicke

  235. reds234

    I wonder if they got Rolen jerseys pressed up ready for sale yet.

  236. Jimmy James

    I don’t think it’s clear that the Reds are better in 2010 with Rolen.

    Either way, this is the type of deal a team makes when they are close to being a contender. Jocketty must think we are close. I disagree.

    We still need competent major leaguers at SS, CF, and LF. And Rolen is old, he’s about to decline. Plus he can’t stay healthy.

    Perhaps Arroyo will give him some PEDs. That would help.

  237. Y-City Jim

    Chad, you need to line up Paul Janish for a podcast interview. We have to know what he did to Dusty.

  238. Eddie

    Chad…can you do something about Daniel Dorn? I mean can you somehow convince him that it’s June when it’s actually April? He always starts out so slow then hits great. I believe he is hitting .315 in June/July

  239. Chad Dotson

    Chemistry, leadership, “gamer”, “play the game the right way”, “the guy’s a pro”.

    Welsh just hit all the Rolen keywords in a twenty-second span. He earned his Jocketty bonus tonight.

  240. taoistlumberjak

    Fire Dusty Baker (AND Walt Jokerty)

  241. Chad Dotson

    Yeah, Dorn is just a flat-out hitter, and he’d probably have a chance of being in the bigs right now if he hadn’t started out so slow.

    Then again, Jocketty wouldn’t even invite him to spring training with the big league club.

  242. taoistlumberjak

    Also, I told my fiance who we traded since she’s headed to Florida on vacation. She refuses to believe me when I tell her that we sent Hairson to the stupid Yanks for a guy who’ll be bagging groceries next week.


    I mean, truly and fully, why?

  243. jello

    Yeah, there must of been cash involved in that deal. If not, then Jocketty’s a moron.

  244. AB

    I don’t have a problem with the JHJ trade at all. He’s a free agent at the end of the year. So, the team is saving money, which I hope they use in the off season, and we got somewhat of a prospect in return. What value does a player like Hairston who will be a free agent after this season really have for our team?

  245. ty

    team phillips was picked off right there

  246. reds234

    Maybe Scott “never say die” Rolen?

  247. brublejr

    When your a team like the Reds are…you should be trading FOR guys like Roenicke and Stewart, not giving them away. This trade is the type of a trade a contender makes to be better for three months, not for a team the is nearly in the cellar.

    The JHJ trade doesn’t bother me, he would be gone next year anyways, so even if you get a bag of balls, at least that is something.

    I was really hoping that the Yanks would take on Arroyo’s contract…something like the Reds paying the rest of this year, with them picking up the rest…

    The Angels still need a SP and a RP, Harang and Weathers? Can they get Wood and others…Harang could take Lackey’s spot when he leaves via FA this winter…

    Rhodes surely can get at least one good prospect, no?

  248. EKyRedsFan

    I haven’t posted in a long time, but I can’t tell you guys how unbelievably pissed I was when I heard about the Rolen trade. Words cannot even express how stupid this move was. All this crap about a “youth movement” was just scam to fleece the fans into supporting a second-rate team all season. they have no intentions of building from within, no intentions of sustained success in the future. this is the same old song and dance we’ve all been through before. and furthermore, perhaps it’s just chad’s love for EE rubbing off on me, but I was really starting to like the guy. I don’t know what you guys think about this trade, but I think it was a piss-poor move.

  249. Y-City Jim

    When your a team like the Reds are…you should be trading FOR guys like Roenicke and Stewart, not giving them away.


  250. Eddie

    Drew Stubbs 2 for 2, 2 steals…now up to 40 on the season. I like what I am seeing here lately after he hit that slump.

  251. al

    i think a lot of people are right when it comes to the ede trade.

    i think rolen helps the team this year and next when he’s on the field.

    i think paying a guy like him a ton of money in his decline is very risky.

    i think jocketty values prospects less than other gm’s, and that could be dangerous for a team in our position if the owner isn’t willing to increase payroll.

    i think stewart was too much to give up considering salary and injury risk.

    overall, it has the chance to go either way, but on paper it looks better for the jays.

    the real question will be what pieces get put in place around him next year. also, jocketty has gone on the record saying he wants to extend rolen. danger.

  252. Y-City Jim

    Hoping that Lehr was settling down after a rocky beginning to his first MLB start.

  253. Bill N.

    I’m not sure we’ll wish we have EDe in two years; his contract is up after 2010, we’d have to pay him a FA rate, and hopefully by then one of Frazier/Soto/Francisco/etc. is ready.

    If you take the cash from Toronto & EdE’s salary into account, we’re essentially spending $2M extra (in total) to go from EdE to Rolen until the end of 2010. That’s reasonable, IMO. It’s only when you add giving up both Roenicke and Stewart that it goes bad.

  254. Bill N.

    Oops, at least until I do the math *properly*. It’s paying 5.6M extra for a year and a third of Rolen.

  255. Y-City Jim

    I thought on Reds Live that they said that Toronto is picking up the difference between EE’s and Rolen’s salaries or is that just front office BS?

  256. Eddie

    Chad…in your personal opinion do you think they will move Votto to LF or just trade away Alonso?
    Would they possible move Votto to LF so Barker (.282, 19 homers) can play 1B?

  257. al

    i’d hit for lehr here. you just brought kip wells up as the long man, lehr is at 75 pitches already, and if he gives up much more this game will get out of hand.

    we need the return of captain hook. dusty lets the starters lose too many games.

  258. AB

    Bill N. – I agree. I think a lot of us are forgetting that EE is due $5.175 mil next year. For his production this year, that’s a bad contract. Could it be better next year? Yes, but it could also stay the same. Rolen’s production for what we will be paying him, which you state well, is easily justifiable. Think of it as signing Rolen as a free agent to a one year contract for $4.2 mill during the off season (assuming the Jays pay the remainder of his salary this year). I think we’d all go for that. The rub is trying to determine the value of Roenicke and Stewart, which is more difficult. They may be no better than replacement players, but they could be all stars as well. Only time will tell.

    I don’t love this trade, but I don’t hate it as much as some of us do after breaking down the numbers and the values the players provide.

  259. al

    joey v seems to have hit his first slump of the season. rolling over on a lot of pitches.

  260. Eddie

    For a team struggling to score runs…wouldn’t those 19 homers be nice?
    I was just thinking if they were going to move Votto to LF then why not let Barker play first until Alonso is ready?

  261. al

    yeah, in his last 6 games he’s hitting .158/.158/.368. and the reds have lost all but one.

  262. al

    i think everyone is forgetting the ede was hurt at the begining of the year. he’s not corey patterson. he hit 25+ hrs last season, and since coming of the dl he’s hitting .276/.375/.526, which is slightly ahead of his career numbers.

    he’s a good hitter, entering his prime, who will probably get better. paying 5 mil for that is totally reasonable if not a downright steal.

    of course, that’s not considering his defense, which wish as i might, has not gotten better. rolen is a big upgrade there, and hopefully he’ll keep hitting.

    my guess is we gave up 2 good prospects and 5 mil for better defense at third and veteran leadership. whether that’s worth it is in the eye of the beholder, but i’ll go with fay’s take: seems like a high price.

  263. Eddie

    Hey, he batted .282……..10 years ago, haha

  264. Bill N.

    The Reds have $50M still on the payroll next year in the form of Arroyo, Cordero, Harang, Lincoln, Rhodes, Gonzalez, and Taveras. How much of that can Jocketty dispose of after waivers, and how much of it should he?

  265. Chad Dotson

    Yes, it’s a possibility that Votto will get moved to LF, but not until 2011 in my opinion.

    Alonso won’t be ready until next year, mid-season, at the earliest. I wouldn’t be surprised to see him traded at some point.

    I have no problem with trading Alonso if we get back a piece that we need. I have NO CONFIDENCE in Walt Jocketty being able to determine what pieces we need.

  266. Chad Dotson

    Catching up on some posts from above….been playing Lego Indiana Jones with the kids.

    Soto won’t be ready by 2011.

    Francisco will NEVER be ready to be a ML 3B.

    Frazier could be ready, but the Reds aren’t playing him at 3B, so you see what they think about his future at the position.

    Walt’s already said he hopes to sign Rolen to an extension past 2010. Sheesh.

  267. Chad Dotson

    I’m getting dumber every second I listen to Jockerty foam at the mouth in the booth right now. Sheesh, what an idiot.

    He is completely clueless.

  268. Jimmy James

    Mr. Jocketty, what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

  269. Chad Dotson

    I love Lance McAlister’s take (on Twitter):

    how much faith can you have in a gm that passed arbitration and a 1yr deal to sign edwin for 2yr…including 4.75 next yr…?

    and then 4 months later realizes the team is better off without that 3b?

  270. BigRedMike

    It is pretty clear that Jocketty has a man crush on Rolen.

    They did just talk about the SS position and Jocketty did not mention Agon as an option for 2010. That is a good thing.

  271. Chad Dotson

    More from Lance:

    the reds trade their best pitching prospect for a 34-yr old 3b? Can i get a copy of that plan please?

    Jocketty has NO PLAN WHATSOEVER.

  272. Kyle

    #336: Thats because he already has a deal in place to send struggling Jay Bruce to whatever team has the rights to Edgar Renteria.

  273. BigRedMike

    Welsh just stated the EE was happy to be gone. I guess you cannot blame him.

    Votto with a BOMB!

  274. Y-City Jim

    Interesting that EE pumped his fist into the air in celebration when he was informed of the trade. What does that say of the situation in Cincinnati?

    Votto- slump breaker!!!!

  275. ty

    holy crap .. when’s the last time the good guys hit back to back jacks????

  276. Eddie

    Where’s Rolen to go back to back to back

  277. Chad Dotson

    I don’t blame Edwin.

    I know, I’m a Edwin fan, but I really do think he’s going to be very good in Toronto. We may regret this deal even if Zach Stewart flames out.

  278. Kyle

    Thats the Scott Rolen veteran leadership right there.

  279. Eddie

    EE pumped his fist cause he is hoping that team doesn’t realize how terrible he is at third.

  280. Kyle

    #349: I’ve always really liked EdE, but the question to me is whether he can start producing well enough to justify a corner outfield (or now a DH) spot. I think he has proven he is a poor at 3B. I’ll root for him, but I’m not sure.

  281. Kyle

    #347: He is trying to find a time machine so he can travel back to when he had some power.

  282. ty

    EE is frickin terrible. the kid who plays 3rd on my daughters t-ball team has less errors this season, and he sucks!

  283. Chad Dotson

    Edwin is four months older than Votto. It’s a good thing Joey didn’t start out slowly, because Jocketty would have given up on him.

  284. ty

    ee is 4 american months older than votto …. we may find out this winter that he’s 37

  285. Chris

    I hate this trade. They went from a 6 to an 8 (IF Rolen is healthy and EE doesn’t really improve) at 3b, added payroll, and gave up 2 top 10 prospects. If you pay any attention to the Reds minor league system, you hate this trade.

    Here’s the question I have: If veteran leadership is all-important, and Scott Rolen delivers it so well – How in the world are the Blue Jays 49-53???

  286. Chris

    Any chance the Face of the Franchise gets bumped out of the ridiculous #4 spot?

    Of course, he has twice as many HR as Rolen…

  287. ty

    yeah, 4 errors, give or take 20…. me and my stupid sarcasm

  288. Steve

    Wow. I just have to say that you guys have a serious mental hang up on Jockety and this trade.

    I listened to the interview on TV and while you might disagree with him on how he assesses the talent, your comments here about him being “insanely idiotic” or “rambling, incoherent” or “completely clueless” or “foaming at the mouth” are the kind of over-the-top, unsupported rants of other blogs.

    He thinks Rolen is a better hitter and fielder than EE. He thinks that Rolen will provide important leadership to the team. He thinks Rolen is basically healthy and has a good chance of being productive for a couple of years. His feeling was that the two young arms were worth those advantages.

    There has been a respectful debate on this site this afternoon about the trade, with lots of arguments and reasoning on both sides. Given the close arguments on both sides I think it’s difficult – in fact, unprovable – to say which side is right or wrong today.

    Now you might disagree with any part of that, but to use the language that you are toward Jockety strikes me as kind of juvenile name-calling, lacking in substance.

    The main thing I like about this place is that people engage in arguments with reasoning and evidence, not personal attacks.

  289. Eddie

    Reds: We want Rolen.
    The Jays: okay we will take these two prospects.
    Reds: Okay you can have them and Edwin.
    The Jays: Uh, if you want us to take Edwin then we want better prospects.

  290. ty

    but, the kid could have turned 2 against the padres yesterday. i’m sure of it!!!

  291. Y-City Jim

    This deal makes me feel that we are stuck with Dusty at least another year. If Jocketty lacks the objectivity that he has demonstrated in this trade then he and Baker were made for each other.

  292. BigRedMike

    Good question Chris. I am not sure acquiring Rolen has anything to do with veteran leadership, I think Jocketty just wanted Rolen on the team.

  293. Chad Dotson

    C’mon, Steve, those were quotes from “Billy Madison” about rambling and incoherent. It was just a stab at humor, methinks.

  294. Brett S

    Not sure if anyone has said this yet, but, I’d bat Rolen 2nd, but I imagine Dusty wouldn’t. That would leave Phillips at 4. Until next season, then Bruce 4th and Phillips 5th.

  295. Kyle

    Thats not the way to earn playing on this squad, Wladimir.

  296. BigRedMike

    Great play by Tulowiski. Robs the new Red of a hit.

    At least we got to hear George say Harriston maybe for the last time in this inning.

  297. Chris

    There has been a respectful debate on this site this afternoon about the trade, with lots of arguments and reasoning on both sides. Given the close arguments on both sides I think it’s difficult – in fact, unprovable – to say which side is right or wrong today.

    I’ll say this: Take a read around the internet. If you can find someone how DOESN’T think the Reds got fleeced – other than a troll, fanboy, or an insider preserving access – post a link.

    I don’t think this one is up for debate. Remember – the Reds are out of it for this year, so EVERYTHING they gave up is contingent on Rolen’s 2010 contribution.

    Balance EE’s 2011, the extra $6M in cost, and the entire careers of Stewart and Roenecke — Rolen’s has to be THAT MUCH better than EE in 2010 for it to be worthwhile.

  298. Chris

    WTF: “He mentioned he’s got some personal things he’s dealing with and if we could move him to a spot closer to his home, if we would take that into consideration, and we did,” Toronto general manager J.P. Ricciardi said. “It ended up working out really well for us.”


  299. BigRedMike

    Great addition, it was a respectful AB. This team is on their way now. :poke:

  300. Travis G.

    I agree, Steve. I thought Jocketty was extremely forthcoming, when a lot of guys in that position might be evasive or vague.

    Rolen is a better player that Encarnacion, whom I’ve always liked, and Jocketty clearly respects the hell out of the off-the-field contributions he makes. I’ll admit I asked the television why the coaches couldn’t provide that instead of paying Rolen so much more, but I’ll defer to the guy who’s built a World Championship team.

    It was nice, though, that he didn’t mention A-Gon’s option when asked about next year’s SS situation.

  301. Chris

    Rooting for this team is like bashing my head against a wall. Why are Jockerty and Dusty worth my attention?

  302. Chad Dotson

    This team is a bunch of minor-leaguers. I keep expecting to see Mike Frank inserted into CF.

  303. BigRedMike

    I am sure that most fans would agree that Rolen is better than EE, but, he is significantly older and significantly more expensive. Also, it was not a trade of EE for Rolen, the Reds threw in 2 of their Top 10 prospects.

    Sorry, I keep forgetting about that veteran leadership.

  304. Y-City Jim

    I wonder what Janish’s reaction would be if he was informed that he was traded? Back flips?

  305. Chris

    I thought Jocketty was extremely forthcoming, when a lot of guys in that position might be evasive or vague.

    I’m curious – Why would he be evasive? HE thinks he made a great deal. The odd thing is that “leadership” was the first thing Walt mentioned in the press conference. Rolen’s actual play was secondary.

  306. Chris

    Question: How much is Dusty Baker paid annually to provide leadership and pennant race experience?

    And if there are “some things only another player can teach,” then why is Baker so well compensated?

    I sometimes think “I’ve heard of that guy before” is the primary decision-making criterion in Reds HQ.

  307. BigRedMike

    Great point. Jocketty got his man and I am sure he was excited to tell everyone about it.

  308. Steve

    I’ll say this: Take a read around the internet. If you can find someone how DOESN’T think the Reds got fleeced – other than a troll, fanboy, or an insider preserving access – post a link.

    @Chris(373): I’m looking forward to reading analysis about the trade from informed sources over the next couple of days. I actually think there have been reasonably well-supported opinions expressed even on this blog of amateurs that support the trade – or don’ think the Reds “got fleeced.”

    But look at how you pose the issue – anyone that disagree with you must fall into these categories of names “troll” “fanboy” etc. My experience is that those are names that people use to describe others with whom they disagree. Again, it’s name-calling substituting for reasoning.

    Are you saying Chad is a “fanboy” because – as he readily admits here today – he “likes EE”? I wouldn’t say that.

  309. BigRedMike

    What was the Colorado CF doing on that play? That was clearly the RF’s ball and he was calling for it. The Reds almost got a great break there.

  310. Bill Lack

    This is one of those deals that makes my chest hurt….there is simply no way to justify this deal.

    EE vs Rolen…offensively, this is a push. This year EE started absolutely horribly, but has played well since coming off the DL, Rolen is having an above average offensive year. Over the past few seasons, their numbers are a push. Rolen is a much better defensive player. Rolen will be 35 next year on Opening Day, can’t stay healthy, and his career could fall a cliff at any moment. EE has had three above average offensive seasons (before this year) and will be 27 when next season starts. Whose offensive numbers are more likely to (at worst) stay the same or get better next year? Is Rolen’s better defense worth $6M next year?

    And to give up Roenicke and Stewart is just simply inexcusable. It doesn’t matter what they do in the future…it matters what they’re worth now.

    Giving up 2 solid minor league pitchers that were near ML ready and an above average ML offensive 3B (even with bad defense) for a 35 year old, injury prone, expensive 3B is simply irrational.

    I’m disgusted with this team….and am inches from becoming as ambivalent about the Reds as I’ve become about the Bengals.

  311. Bill N.

    Just to clarify – I don’t support this trade. I think throwing in Roenicke and Stewart made it pretty stupid.

    I just don’t think the change from EdE to Rolen is much to get ridiculously upset about, as EdE was certainly gone after 2010. Well, at least not until they actually do the silly thing they said about signing Rolen to an extension.

  312. Travis G.

    I’m curious – Why would he be evasive?

    You’ve watched plenty of sports before; athletes and front-office types are rarely candid. I felt like I learned something from that interview, even if I didn’t agree with all of it.

    I’m a little skeptical that Rolen can produce at the same level next year that he has so far this season, but I’m not sure we need to keep adding prospects to this mix. We’ve got some young, high-ceiling players who’ve already reached the majors. At some point, you need to add veterans to compliment their strengths, or you’re just spinning your wheels.

    It’s important to remember that Toronto’s kicking in salary (possibly even the difference between EdE’s and Rolen’s over the next two seasons), and I found it interesting that Jocketty said he felt Stewart and Roenicke could be easily replaced.

    But most importantly, remember: TINSTAAPP.

  313. Chad Dotson

    I’m glad we didn’t trade D**** FREAKING W*******!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Stormy strikes again. X(

  314. Chad Dotson

    Okay, Chris…I finally agree with what you’ve been saying for weeks.

    I hate this stupid team. Why do I waste so much time and money following this bunch? All they do is frustrate me.

  315. Steve

    Grrr…more “relief” from David Weathers. Terrible.

  316. Chris

    But look at how you pose the issue – anyone that disagree with you must fall into these categories of names “troll” “fanboy” etc. My experience is that those are names that people use to describe others with whom they disagree. Again, it’s name-calling substituting for reasoning.

    No, Steve. I mean those labels seriously. There are people who ALWAYS make contrarian comments (trolls). There are people who do not engage in any form of analysis and simply say, “my team, and I support them.” (Fanboys) And there are people like beat writers and George Grande whom I would not expect to criticize the trade publicly, no matter how they actually feel.

    But really, I was referring to “professional,” or at least informed opinions. I’m not counting me or Chad among those.

  317. BigRedMike

    Weathers is shutting them down tonight.

  318. KY Chip

    Classic moment — Welsh: “I don’t think we’ll see David Weathers moved”. DW immediately gives up a deep HR to left to lose the lead.

    Y’know, Chris, there may be a reason DW is still a Red.

  319. Chris

    For God’s sakes. The best part is that after he gives up MONSTER HRs on consecutive pitches, he starts the next guy off with a “fastball” down the pipe.

  320. Chris

    Travis G (390), as I understand it, they’re only making up the difference for 2009.

  321. CarolinaReds

    Yep, I tune in and see the game tied and JV at bat…next thing I know Weathers is on the mound giving free home runs…will things ever change? This team completely sucks and doesn’t deserve to be in the majors, pathetic from top to bottom except 2b and 1b

  322. Chad Dotson

    I stated the other day that the Reds just needed to clean house. The Reds did precisely the opposite, pretending that they are a part or two away from being a good team.

    I don’t think Jockerty is listening to me.

  323. BigRedMike

    If the Reds lose tonight, there is a decent chance that they will be in last place after Sunday’s game.

  324. EKyRedsFan

    Looks like FSOhio is having trouble finding companies to advertise during Reds games. I wonder why.

  325. Chad Dotson

    No, Mike. We’ll have veteran leadership by then. A gamer in the lineup.

    I expect to be in first place by Sunday.

  326. Travis G.

    I’ve read that report, as well, Chris, but the Reds went only as far as confirming Toronto sent “cash considerations.” I’ve heard the Jays might contribute money toward next year’s salary, but haven’t confirmed it.

  327. KY Chip

    Chad — those two parts would be a “major league outfield” and “dependable pitching”.

  328. Chad Dotson

    I wonder what FSNO’s ratings look like?

    They’re going to be lower now that I’ll be watching other teams for the rest of the season.

  329. EKyRedsFan

    What chaps my ass the most is the “youth movement” BS we’ve heard about to help fans swallow the Griff and Dunn trades and then they drop this crap on us.

  330. BigRedMike


    That is part of the problem with the Reds, instead of blowing it up and starting over, they continue to add “old” players thinking they are in contention.

    The Reds starting pitching is not good enough to win the Central. It might get worse based on the problems Volquez is having. In addition, the Reds are stuck with average at best expensive starters in Arroyo and Harang.

    If the Reds could find a lead off hitter, the offense could be decent.

  331. EKyRedsFan

    I think the offense needs more help than a leadoff hitter to make it up to “decent.”

  332. Drew nelson

    Lets review;

    1st base: Votto – set
    2nd Base: Phillips – set
    SS: Needs improvment
    3rd Base: Rolan – set
    RF: Bruce – set
    LF: Nix/Gomes combo/set
    CF: Needs improvement
    C: H & H boys – set

    So infield wise the Reds need to get a SS and CF, who might we look at in the offseason?

  333. BigRedMike

    Hey EKy, I am trying to be optomistic :p

    I think Bruce will be very important to the Reds future offense. He is young and should improve. We know he has the power.

  334. Chad Dotson

    Bruce better start hitting as soon as he gets back. Jocketty will give up on him pretty quickly.

  335. Y-City Jim

    What chaps my ass the most is the “youth movement” BS we’ve heard about to help fans swallow the Griff and Dunn trades and then they drop this crap on us.

    That’s what happens when ownership changes management more often than their underwear.

  336. Drew nelson

    The review of the trade from the BJays view was an interesting read. I would be interested to know from those here who think the Reds got robed, how was this writer wrong?

  337. EKyRedsFan

    I know and the optomism is appreciated on a day like today. Jay will most definitely improve – the sooner the better, of course.

  338. Veteran Leader

    Hey lads. I’m new here. Let me just say this right off : the youngsters here on this message board need to be taught how to post by someone “who knows how to post”.

    I can teach you when to steal (from other message boards), and how to field (criticism). I have been asked to join this board to provide that kind of leadership.

    Veteran leaders such as myself do not care about your silly OBPS (Online Based Posting Skepticism). This board will be all about RBIs (Respectful Banter on the Internet).

    Glad to be part of the team. 🙂

  339. BigRedMike

    LF: Nix/Gomes combo/set

    I hope they do something different than these two in LF.

    C: H & H boys – set

    Hernandez had better not be back next year.

    CF – Just play Dickerson there and DFA Taveras. Stubbs should be able to make the team next year.

  340. GRF

    “Balance EE’s 2011, the extra $6M in cost, and the entire careers of Stewart and Roenecke — Rolen’s has to be THAT MUCH better than EE in 2010 for it to be worthwhile.”

    Chris, I do not think it could be phrased any better, unfortunately.

    I honestly do not know where to go from here. With this move, I have lost all confidence in the front office. I lost confidence in Dusty already. Team cannot be competitive this year and absent some major move will not be competitive in 2010. Do not even have the consolation of seeing the kids play to make it interesting.

  341. BigRedMike

    Must have been a missed hit and run. Helton has no chance to run on Hanigan.

  342. Y-City Jim

    The propaganda machine was firing on all cylinders on radio with Dr. Kremchek on the air to tell all what a wonderful guy Rolen is.

  343. Steve

    I don’t really think the Rolen trade proves we’ve given up on the youth movement, or that we’re not committed to it. A point I tried to make earlier today is that our youth movement has paid great dividends – it produced Votto, Bruce, Bailey, Dickerson, Cueto. We’ve developed Hanigan and traded for Volquez.

    We didn’t trade Bailey for Dye. We dumped JHJ primarily to see our younger players more now that 2009 is pretty much a write off.

    I’m sure Walt was barraged with offers for Votto, Bruce, Bailey, Cueto etc. but didn’t trade any of them.

    But just because we have a core of young players doesn’t mean we should try to keep getting younger and younger. That’s what the Pirates seem to be doing.

    Fans like us tend to fall in love with every minor league prospect and hate to part with any. I think it’s hard to find examples of World Series champions that are made entirely of young players.

    To me, you establish a young core and then supplement that with a few well-chosen veterans. Whether Scott Rolen ends up being “well-chosen” will have to be seen.

    I do think this trade means we’re serious about competing in 2010.

    P.S. If Chris Welsh says “boy you’re not kidding about that” one more time I may puncture my eardrums.

  344. Y-City Jim

    Any analysis based on what EE has done this season is skewed. The guy has only been to the plate a little over 150 times, and that was split by a two month period in between. Any analysis should be based on what EE has done over the past several seasons.

  345. EKyRedsFan

    A little off topic now, but I want to mention that Marty sounded very pissed off at Dick Pole earlier for allowing Lehr to load the bases and then wait for him to put up 3 balls on Ianetta before even thinking about visiting the mound.

    I just thought it was pretty funny.

  346. EKyRedsFan

    Steve, while a lot of that is true, the Reds should have nothing to do with trading young talent away for old, injury prone vets who, I assume, will be commanding a great deal of money and play a position at which we have no real need.

  347. KY Chip

    Can anyone tell me why there are still fans in the seats?!? Two runs down, two outs, Janish at bat? I’m already in the parking lot.

  348. Eddie

    Paul Janish? Who the f*** is this guy?

  349. Travis G.

    Steve, you’re not kidding about that. I literally agreed with everything you wrote in that #430 post.

    There is clearly a youth movement in place, and management realized (too late, in my opinion) that they hit a wall about a third of the way through the season. I thought they needed a low-cost veteran to back up the corner spots when one of the youngsters inevitably struggled. As good as these guys are, they’re not the collection of studs the Rays have after a decade of top-five picks.

    And I am making this an official bet: If Nix/Gomes is our Opening Day LF next season, I am hearby purchasing a powder-blue Albert Pujols jersey. I’m not kidding about this.

  350. Veteran Leader

    Thanks Travis, and under my tutelage you may become someone here on RLN. 🙂

  351. Steve

    Don’t know how you can say we have no real need at 3B. Do you think Edwin was our 3B of the future? He was pretty awful at defense and proving inconsistent on offense. No clear sign of improvement. We may have some good prospects, but just that. I think 3B was a huge position of need.

    Is Rolen more “injury prone” than EE has been?

  352. Eddie

    I believe I saw a Monster Quest episode where they looked for the one you call Paul Janish.

  353. KY Chip

    Eddie — did they find him or was he like Bigfoot? Just some grainy footage of a questionable nature and a few cleat prints that could’ve been made by any number of other players?

  354. EKyRedsFan

    No way EE is more injury prone than Rolen. Rolen is old as hell.. how much longer can you count on this guy? I’m glad he’s having a great season, but Rolen is not the answer.

    I’m not saying that Edwin is the “answer” at 3B, I just strongly feel that those prospects could have been traded for a position player we need much more: shortstop, center field, left field.

  355. Y-City Jim

    Maybe Jocketty is going to do a Bowden and try to reassemble the Cardinals here. Wish he would have started with Pujols.

  356. Eddie

    The DNA that was “supposedly” from Paul Janish was contaminated and therefore one Paul Janish could not be confirmed or denied.

  357. EKyRedsFan

    Most of these texts are either from real knuckle-draggers or the guys out in the FSOhio truck are texting their fingers off.

  358. Chris Garber

    Steve, Thanks for posting those links.

    I think the Jays post is serious and sincere, but fatally flawed. It ONLY looks at EE’s 2009 numbers, which everyone knows have been atrocious and include a broken wrist. He also only looks @ Rolen’s 2009 numbers, too. That’s silly, but I give partial credit since I think that’s what Jocketty did.

  359. Chris Garber

    I don’t see any read of Justin’s post that is favorable to Jocketty.

  360. Eddie

    Drew Stubbs 3 for 4 (2 Steals and a walk). Chris Heisey 2 for 5 (3 Rbi).

  361. KY Chip

    My favorite of those fan texts was “dont worry dusty u are still the smartest manager in all of baseball”. Could smell the irony through my TV set.

    Just a good thing I wasn’t taking a drink when I read it. Someone would’ve owed me a new laptop.

  362. Y-City Jim

    I think I have discovered the real purpose of the Rolen/Encaracion trade. It was to distract us all from the moronic actions of Dusty Baker. I must say it worked as there was very little Dusty Baker bashing tonight.

  363. Travis G.

    I’m not saying that Edwin is the “answer” at 3B, I just strongly feel that those prospects could have been traded for a position player we need much more: shortstop, center field, left field.

    But which SS, CF or LF? I think it’s safe to assume that Jocketty tried to improve those three positions and couldn’t find a fit.

    Oakland traded Cabrera for a 2008 second-rounder who can hit some and is expected to stick at SS. We don’t have one of those guys. The only legit CF who might have been available is Rios, and we know Jocketty talked to Toronto; you gotta think his name came up at some point. I’ve heard Carl Crawford was mildly available, but our best chance for him is this winter (pleasepleasepleaseplease).

    I’ve been a big defender of Encarnacion’s, but I think we’ve seen who he is: an average hitter for a corner spot whose value is nullified by his brutal defense. I like both pitchers we gave up, but let’s not get too excited; Stewart is still building up arm strength, so it’s not like he’ll be in the rotation next year, and Roenicke’s not young. And we still don’t know for sure how much Rolen will cost next year.

  364. TylerS

    How is this even close to a wash offensively? Yeah, EE brought his average up in July because he had a 3 hit game and a 4 hit game on back-to-back nights. Subtract those 2 games and he’s hitting .197 for the month. He’s hitting .158 in his past 12 games.

    The Reds have the ABSOLUTE WORST production from the 3B position in the entire MLB. The numbers are pathetically bad from that position. They traded away a player with a WHIP of over 1.5 and BB/9 of over 5.5 in both AAA and A+ for his career.

    How many people had been talking about Stewart as the “closer of the future” until after today’s trade? How many people had even heard of him, or had any idea what his numbers were? He’s been pitching well this year, but does not even have 50 IP in AA and AAA for his career. Yes, his career ERA is low, but his peripherals suggest he’s nowhere close to being major league ready.

    Josh Roenicke also has a career WHIP of over 1.5 and a BAA of nearly .300. Yes, they’re both young, but how much faith do you have in this organization to develop young pitching after they have had one epic failure after another with regards to their pitching prospects (Homer being the exception).

    Looking at peripherals, Roenicke is a far better talent than Stewart. Our bullpen is packed with good right arms. We have had absolutely DISMAL production on both sides of the ball at 3B this year, and now we have near All-Star production from both sides.

    Ask yourself this: What would our record be this year with a healthy Votto, Volquez, and a .320 hitter at 3B with 5 errors compared to our .203 hitting with 15 E’s this season?

    That’s what we could be looking at in 2010, and Jocketty may not be finished yet.

  365. Travis G.

    How is this even close to a wash offensively?

    I cut-and-pasted this yesterday from an MLBTradeRumors.com poster”

    Combined stats from 2006 to 2008:


    At Bats – 1321
    Runs – 207
    Hits – 365
    Doubles – 102
    Triples – 6
    Home Runs – 41
    RBI – 203
    BA – .276
    OBP – .352
    SLG – .456
    OPS – .808

    Edwin E

    At Bats – 1414
    Runs – 201
    Hits – 384
    Doubles – 87
    Triples – 3
    Home Runs – 57
    RBI – 216
    BA – .272
    OBP – .351
    SLG – .458
    OPS – .809

    That said, I’m open-minded to this deal.

  366. TylerS


    Rolen had 2 shoulder surgeries and 3 trips to the DL over that time frame, and his numbers were STILL comparable to a *mostly* (1 extended absence) healthy EE.

    In the past 6 seasons, Rolen has been healthy 3 times. In those 3 seasons, his numbers are/were:

    2004: .314/.409/.598
    2006: .296/.369/.518
    2009: .320/.370/.476


    2004: 32/34/124
    2006: 48/22/95
    2009: 29/8/43

    Rolen, when healthy, is head and shoulders above EE, when healthy. Right now, Rolen is healthy and EE is not. This one seems like a no-brainer.

  367. Chris Garber

    Why do you assume Rolen’s mid-30s numbers are due to a shoulder injury, but believe EE’s pitiful 2009 has nothing to do with HIS BROKEN WRIST?

    Why do you assume that a guy who plays every other year will suddenly turn into Cal Ripken?

    EE put up those numbers from age 23-26. Rolen was at the tail end of his prime.

    Rolen will likely hit better next year, but not much.

  368. TylerS

    All I’m saying is that historically, when Rolen has been healthy, he has raked. Edwin, well, he’s Edwin. He’s an average hitter with sub-par defense. It’s a giant upgrade. Do you really expect Rolen’s 2010 to be significantly worse than his 2009 if he’s healthy? Is 35 that much different than 34? Also, I never said anything about EE’s bad 2009. I said when BOTH are healthy, Rolen is significantly better.

    Both are coming off of injuries. Rolen improved when he healed, and Edwin remained more of the same.

  369. Chris Garber

    Post #456 was all about 2009 numbers, no?

  370. WORLD

    Scott Rolen can play 3B. EE cannot. Enough said there.

    Where’s the shortstop?

    And why, for goodness sakes, give away Hairston for a catcher when you have a good, young fellow who can catch and hit when he’s given a chance?

    Walt J. stinks on ice. Compare him to Amaro with the Phillies.

    Just be glad that the Pirates are in the division.

  371. GRF

    A giant upgrade? I suppose if you just assume that at age 35 he will suddenly start staying healthy when he has not been able to do so consistently in the last five years.

    As Chris so concisely pointed out, we get one meaningful year of Rolen:

    “Balance EE’s 2011, the extra $6M in cost, and the entire careers of Stewart and Roenecke — Rolen’s has to be THAT MUCH better than EE in 2010 for it to be worthwhile.”

    Unless you think we are making a deep run at the playoffs next year, as the team is constructed (because with this salary we aren’t adding anything else significant) this is a joke of a trade.

  372. GRF

    And just to be clear, I am not a huge EE fan. Rolen is a better player than EE. I still am not sure I would have done the trade even up, given the differences in contracts, but even given my skepticism Rolen will repeat his numbers this season next season, I get the argument.

    But the pitchers are what kills this. To repeat part of an earlier pot snyone notice how this is the exact opposite of virtually everything else that went down this week? Everyone treating prospects like they were gold, refusing to give up top guys in their systems even for All-Star level players.

    Again, either we are smarter than everyone else in the room, or we are complete morons. I know which I am picking.

  373. David Lowenthal

    “I’m disgusted with this team….and am inches from becoming as ambivalent about the Reds as I’ve become about the Bengals.”

    Bill, I think the Bengals are better run—and THAT is saying something.
    I’ve lost interest in this team every year, as they cannot pull their heads out of their butts.

  374. TylerS


    Take away Edwin’s 3-hit and 4-hit consecutive nights and .276 drops below .200. He’s hitting .158 in his past 12. He’s likely still not 100%. A wrist injury can take a LONG time to recover from. Rolen had his initial injury in 2005 and 4 years and multiple surgeries later, he’s seemed to turn it around. And yes, I do expect him to turn into Cal Ripken, because when he’s healthy, he hits like Cal Ripken. He actually has higher career numbers in AVG, OBP, and SLG than Ripken.

  375. Chris Garber

    I was referring to durability. Rolen is, and always will be an injury risk. That can’t be ignored. There’s a good chance that the guy won’t play 150 games as a Red, total.

  376. Travis G.

    Take away Edwin’s 3-hit and 4-hit consecutive nights and .276 drops below .200.

    Why would you do that? Do those hits not count for some reason?

    @WORLD: I know nothing about the C prospect the Reds acquired in the Hairston deal, but you do realize Hanigan’s 29 years old, right? I mean, not that he’s going to retire or anything, but I suspect he won’t retain his value through all six years he’s under team control. He’ll also need a backup.

  377. David Lowenthal

    Encarnacion sucks. If you take away all of his hits, his .276 batting average drops to zero. However, if you take away all of Rolen’s hits, he’s
    batting .250.

  378. GregD

    If you take away all of his hits, his .276 batting average drops to zero. However, if you take away all of Rolen’s hits, he’s
    batting .250.


  379. shane

    2004: .314/.409/.598
    2006: .296/.369/.518
    2009: .320/.370/.476

    “Rolen will likely hit better next year, but not much”

    I can definitely live with him not hitting much better than that

    “we get one meaningful year of Rolen”

    one meaningful year of Rolen is better to me than 3 typical years of EE

    My only question regarding the trade is the prospects, but then thats really what they are, prospects. Not proven major leaguers, prospects that could still go either way